Re: Learning to fly

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:23:32 +0100, "GB" >
wrote in >:

>40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
>circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
>wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?

The answer to that question depends on what sort of flying you want to
do once you have your airmans certificate, and how much you can afford
to spend on flying. Glider instruction can be very inexpensive if you
join a soaring club, and you will get some fundamental experience in
aerodynamics and meteorology that powered flyers only get a smattering
of. However, you will be mostly limited to summer days, and costs
will be about as low as possible.

Powered flight is less of a sport, and can be useful for air touring,
but the cost of flight instruction and aircraft operation is
significantly more that soaring.

>If I learn on gliders, will this be any help towards getting a PPL?

It should make your transition to powered flight significantly easier,
if that's what you meant. Actually there are several private pilot
licenses: Single Engine Land and sea, Multiengine, Glider, Lighter
Than Air, ...

>I apprecaite that it's all good experience, but I have a feeling that the PPL
>only counts hours in a powered plane. Is that right?

A Private Glider certificate requires instruction in gliders.

>Also, any recommendations for places to learn to fly, powered or unpowered,
>near North London?

I'll cross post this follow up article to the uk.rec.aviation and
rec.aviation.soaring newsgroups, and you should receive some replies
from knowledgeable folks in that location.

>Finally, I am very overweight (over 18 stone). Does that rule out gliders
>unless I lose quite a bit of weight?

I'll leave that question to the airmen in rec.aviation.soaring.

>Thanks very much.
>

You may want to consider inquiring at one of the soaring advocacy
groups like the Soaring Society of America; you'll find a lot of good
information on their web site: http://www.ssa.org/ . I can also
recommend the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association web site for more
power oriented information: http://www.aopa.org/ . Unfortunately, I
unable to provide information for the similar European organizations.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:23:32 +0100, "GB" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
>>circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
>>wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?
>
<...>>Also, any recommendations for places to learn to fly, powered or
unpowered,
>>near North London?
>

I assume you mean London in the UK and not in Canada or whatever other
contries have cities named "London" :-)

British Gliding Association http://www.gliding.co.uk/

Club locations http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/ukmap.htm

There are more gliding clubs in the UK than you can shake a stick at...

But if you did mean London Canada: http://www.sac.ca/ :-)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Michael Ash]

In rec.aviation.soaring Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:23:32 +0100, "GB" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>40 years or so ago, I learned to fly, at least a bit. I did some solo
>>circuits in gliders. I would like to come back to flying, and I was
>>wondering about whether to learn on powered or unpowered planes?
>
> The answer to that question depends on what sort of flying you want to
> do once you have your airmans certificate, and how much you can afford
> to spend on flying. Glider instruction can be very inexpensive if you
> join a soaring club, and you will get some fundamental experience in
> aerodynamics and meteorology that powered flyers only get a smattering
> of.

I would say that if you are planning to fly purely for fun, go for
gliders. If you imagine using it for useful things (or if "fun" for you
means using the plane to go on vacation somewhere) then go for powered.
(Full disclosure, I'm a glider pilot.)

> However, you will be mostly limited to summer days, and costs
> will be about as low as possible.

I must object to this, as some of the most spectacular soaring can happen
in the dead of winter, in the form of ridge and wave soaring. I don't know
how things are in the UK, but here in Virginia even for thermal soaring
the definition of "summer" is pretty loose, and really includes a great
deal of the spring and fall.

But the general theme is still true; gliders are much more
weather-dependent. You can fly in the same weather as a VFR powered plane,
but you can't *stay up* and therefore make it really fun on a lot of those
days.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
wrote in >:

>You can fly in the same weather as a VFR powered plane,
>but you can't *stay up* and therefore make it really fun on a lot of those
>days.

Not to mention the nights. :-)

[GB]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
> wrote in >:
>
>>You can fly in the same weather as a VFR powered plane,
>>but you can't *stay up* and therefore make it really fun on a lot of those
>>days.
>
> Not to mention the nights. :-)

Thanks to all who replied. You have helped me to make my mind up about one
thing. I am only interested in flying 'for fun', so I'll go the gliding
route. You seem to get a lot more time in the air for your money with a
glider. Now to tackle the weight issue.

[D]

You seem to get a lot more time in the air for your money with a
> glider. >
>

A lot more hanging about waiting to get a launch as well. I have never
really "got" gliding, being a die'd in the wool power chap. Too much down
time for me.

I'd recommend the NPPL M

David

[Rob McDonald]

"D" > wrote in
:

> You seem to get a lot more time in the air for your money with a
>> glider. >
>
> A lot more hanging about waiting to get a launch as well. I have
> never really "got" gliding, being a die'd in the wool power chap. Too
> much down time for me.
>
> I'd recommend the NPPL M
>
> David

My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when you
are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the experience,
and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.

Right now I fly my own plane for pleasure, and occasionally for business,
but I look forward to the day when I can return to soaring. Flying to the
soaring club appears to be a good justification for owning a power plane
:-)

Rob

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[Cubdriver]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
wrote:

>I must object to this, as some of the most spectacular soaring can happen
>in the dead of winter,

Assuming that paragliding is similar, one of the great treats of
skiing at Aspen is watching the fliers play off the open slopes
(pistes to the lad in the UK) and forests.

I've never seen a hard-shell glider doing this, perhaps because the
airport is near 8,000 feet and the tow plane would really have its
work cut out for it.

The paragliders just ski down the mountain a few hundred feet, then
pop the chute out of a very large backpack.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

[Shawn[_3_]]

Cubdriver wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:34:35 -0500, Michael Ash >
> wrote:
>
>> I must object to this, as some of the most spectacular soaring can happen
>> in the dead of winter,
>
> Assuming that paragliding is similar, one of the great treats of
> skiing at Aspen is watching the fliers play off the open slopes
> (pistes to the lad in the UK) and forests.
>
> I've never seen a hard-shell glider doing this, perhaps because the
> airport is near 8,000 feet and the tow plane would really have its
> work cut out for it.

Glider towing is done out of Telluride and Buena Vista, both above 8000
feet, and Salida at 7000 feet. Tows out of Front Range glider
operations are routinely higher than 8000 feet as well.


Shawn

[Dan G]

On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter > wrote:
> Rob McDonald > wrote
>
> >My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when you
> >are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the experience,
> >and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
>
> The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
> not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
> choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
> whole weekend hanging around.

I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
go home again.

In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
else shirks.

And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
icecaps...

A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
inadequate).


Dan

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Dan G wrote:
> On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter > wrote:
>> Rob McDonald > wrote
>>
>>> My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when you
>>> are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the experience,
>>> and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
>> The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
>> not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
>> choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
>> whole weekend hanging around.
>
> I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
> you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
> go home again.
>
> In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
> on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
> you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
> launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
> will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
> yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
> else shirks.
>
> And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
> icecaps...
>
> A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
> booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
> flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
> in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
> inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
> inadequate).
>
>
> Dan
>
Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it all depends on your
available time and the level of your incentive, but I'm one instructor
who believes strongly in the concept of "hanging around the field" as
one of the strongest learning tools in aviation.
Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done and why. You also
see first hand the result of things tried, done, and not done. You learn
fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and who doesn't.
All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in HUGE unpaid for
dividends for those with the time to do it.
Dudley Henriques

[Nyal Williams]

Not many clubs in the US do booking, but the commercial
operators do so.

I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
and leaving. People sail and fly gliders (in part)
so they can talk about it. And no one but other glider
pilots understand; explaining it to non-flyers gets
to be tedious and boring.

Just two kinds of pilots talk about their flights with
others; they are glider pilots and fighter pilots.
Have you ever heard engine-driven airplane pilots
talking to each other about the details of their flights?
Doesn't happen -- it is just a tool.

Hanging out and talking is a great part of the fun;
it is a life-style and should not be confused with
just picking up ratings or badges.

But maybe some people just like to pick up another
experience for two years, drop it and move on to something
else. It comes down to deep interest or shallow diversion.
I've been at it since 1954 and haven't had enough;
I would not have had the wonderful experiences had
I just booked, flew, and left without hanging out and
developing deep friendships.

At 23:54 08 July 2007, Dudley Henriques wrote:
>Dan G wrote:
>> On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter wrote:
>>> Rob McDonald wrote
>>>
>>>> My experience with soaring is that you are always
>>>>doing something when you
>>>> are not flying. Socializing with club members is part
>>>>of the experience,
>>>> and much more common in my experience than in power-plane
>>>>flying clubs.
>>> The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK
>>>if you want that,
>>> not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that
>>>this is the
>>> choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one
>>>would spend the
>>> whole weekend hanging around.
>>
>> I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand
>>that in the US
>> you can book lessons with instructors and turn up
>>a set time, fly, and
>> go home again.
>>
>> In the UK you get instruction for free but have to
>>spend the whole day
>> on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of
>>flying. In theory
>> you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs
>>e.g. helping
>> launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if
>>you do that people
>> will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll
>>rapidly find
>> yourself part of a small group which does all the
>>work while everyone
>> else shirks.
>>
>> And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster
>>than the
>> icecaps...
>>
>> A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and
>>introduced
>> booking systems and are indeed reaping the results
>>(more members
>> flying than they know what to do with), but those
>>clubs are very much
>> in the minority (introducing something new implies
>>the old system was
>> inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit
>>that they were
>> inadequate).
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it
>all depends on your
>available time and the level of your incentive, but
>I'm one instructor
>who believes strongly in the concept of 'hanging around
>the field' as
>one of the strongest learning tools in aviation.
>Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done
>and why. You also
>see first hand the result of things tried, done, and
>not done. You learn
>fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and
>who doesn't.
>All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in
>HUGE unpaid for
>dividends for those with the time to do it.
>Dudley Henriques
>

[Dan G]

On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
> wrote:
> I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
> and leaving.

That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to realise and
understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally I wouldn't
shout about it.


Dan

[Nyal Williams]

That is my personal view point and every one has his
own. If yours is different you are welcome to it and
I don't object; I won't argue about it, but I don't
mind anyone's knowing my particular prejudice about
this matter and I don't hide behind some willy-nilly
empathic stance that refuses to allow an opinion.

I wish anyone well who has a different view; is that
enough empathy?

At 14:24 09 July 2007, Dan G wrote:
>On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
> wrote:
>> I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
>> and leaving.
>
>That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to
>realise and
>understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally
>I wouldn't
>shout about it.
>
>
>Dan
>
>

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Not many clubs in the US do booking, but the commercial
> operators do so.
>
> I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
> and leaving. People sail and fly gliders (in part)
> so they can talk about it. And no one but other glider
> pilots understand; explaining it to non-flyers gets
> to be tedious and boring.
>
> Just two kinds of pilots talk about their flights with
> others; they are glider pilots and fighter pilots.
> Have you ever heard engine-driven airplane pilots
> talking to each other about the details of their flights?
> Doesn't happen -- it is just a tool.
>
> Hanging out and talking is a great part of the fun;
> it is a life-style and should not be confused with
> just picking up ratings or badges.
>
I'd thoroughly agree.

I fly with the Cambridge (UK) club, but I'm just back from a weekend in
the Scottish borders. I went up for an long-time model flying friend's
50th birthday on Saturday night. A lot of model flying friends were
there to, so it was a good party. I stayed at the Borders Gliding Club
for the weekend and flew Saturday and Sunday.

I'd never been to that club before and didn't know anybody, but the
instant camaraderie of glider pilots made for a great weekend.
Cambridgeshire is flat and only offers thermal soaring while the Borders
has ridge and wave lift as well as thermals, though only the ridge and
thermals were working. I flew both days, renewed my acquaintance with a
Grob Acro III and added a club Astir to my type list, learnt a lot about
aero towing in the turbulence around hills and had a good time joining
in the general airfield activity and socializing.

In short, the gliding parts of the weekend were at least as good as the
party.

To the OP:
- its true that sites like Cambridge are a lot less active once the
thermals stop for winter, but we still operate on a reduced scale
for training, proficiency flying and, after Christmas there's the
surge of activity as everybody does their annual flying checks in
preparation for the next season and/or helps in the workshop as we
put gliders through their C of A inspections. We also mount
expeditions to hill sites in Yorkshire or Scotland.

- Clubs with hill sites (Sutton Bank, Borders, Portmoak, Nympsfield
and, of course the London Gliding Club) can run a pretty full program
all year round.

- Gliding is inherently social because it needs a minimum of three
people to get a glider airborne (pilot, tuggie/winch driver, launch
marshal/wing runner) and it just gets better as the numbers increase.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Scott[_1_]]

Ouch...a bit harsh :(

Scott


Dan G wrote:
> On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
> > wrote:
>
>>I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
>>and leaving.
>
>
> That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to realise and
> understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally I wouldn't
> shout about it.
>
>
> Dan
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Jack[_1_]]

Dan G wrote:

> That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to realise and
> understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally I wouldn't
> shout about it.


DanG,

You may be just the person to finally explain how one diverges toward
something. I've always wondered. Perhaps by converging away from it?


Jack

[[email protected][_2_]]

> A lot more hanging about waiting to get a launch as well. I have never
> really "got" gliding, being a die'd in the wool power chap. Too much down
> time for me.
>
> I'd recommend the NPPL M
>
> David

Hmm. Sunday, I went to the glider field (H07 in IL) around 10 am,
preflighted my glider, got in line for a tow, and 15 minutes later
released at 1500' agl after about 2 minutes on tow, then flew a 200
mile XC in about 5 hours, exploring the south Illinois countryside
under beautiful Cumulus clouds while practicing for a glider race next
week. Ended up landing at a nice airport (KGRE) 12 miles away from
where I took off (day died a bit early and I pushed a little too
hard), called my friends, and they drove my trailer over so I could
derig my glider and get back to the clubhouse for adult beverages and
postflight BS session.

Great way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

If you want to travel, do it in a stinkpot - sorry, airplane. If you
want to fly, do it in a glider!

By the way, if you are in Michigan next week, stop by the Ionia
airport and check out the glider races.

Kirk
(lots of hours in both)

[Dan G]

On Jul 10, 12:32 am, Scott > wrote:
> Ouch...a bit harsh :(

Yes, it was! However it was this part:

On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
> wrote:
<snip>
> But maybe some people just like to pick up another
> experience for two years, drop it and move on to something
> else. It comes down to deep interest or shallow diversion.

That riled me somewhat. My interest in gliding is something that I
don't care to explain to people because they'd think I was a spaced-
out hippie and, by and large, I'm not. So I felt slightly insulted by
the suggestion that those who cannot invest all their daylight hours
on a weekend cannot have a "deep interest" in gliding, but are in fact
"shallow". Yup, some people do indeed leave after two years - in total
frustration at the lack of support given to them while they struggle
to progress.

I have known at least a dozen people come and go from gliding over the
last two years at our club because eight hours in winter for twenty
minutes flying (and sometimes none) is not an acceptable balance for
them. Yes those days are quickly forgotten once you're a summer aero-
tow taker who never comes in winter and never helps out (a good half,
being conservative, of our club membership would fit that
description). (We're a flat-land thermal-only site.) Personally I turn
up about once a fortnight in winter *purely* to winch drive, retrieve
drive, and generally help out. I do that because I want to help people
are entering our sport, and am acutely aware of crappy it can be for
them when they were sold tales of summer soaring and are faced with
the grim reality of a wet and muddy field. I might take a launch, but
only when I really need to do it to keep current.

A lot of people seem to regard the cold days for little flying thing
as a rite-of-passage; perhaps an "intiation test". Others seem to
think that because they had to do it, so should everyone else. With
gliding contracting at an alarming rate, I don't think the sport can
survive those points of view in the long term.


Dan

[Roger Worden]

By spending a significant amount of time at the field, one sees many good
and bad takeoffs and landings. It's possible to learn a great deal just by
observing and discussing with your clubmates.

By pitching in to help rig and derig gliders - the club's and the other
private pilots who keep their ships at the field - one can learn how they
differ and what one might want to eventually buy.

Yes, I've had those days where I only flew for 20 minutes... or not at all.
With an hour drive both ways, I was into it about for 2 years before my
day's soaring time exceeded my drive time!

In my experience, those that expect to show up, fly, and go home do not get
deeply into the sport because they don't learn enough to make the commitment
to truly learn to soar. I decided from the beginning that if I was going to
be a pilot I'd better give it my all in order to be safe and proficient.

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
> Dan G wrote:
>> On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter > wrote:
>>> Rob McDonald > wrote
>>>
>>>> My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when
>>>> you
>>>> are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the
>>>> experience,
>>>> and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
>>> The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
>>> not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
>>> choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
>>> whole weekend hanging around.
>>
>> I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
>> you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
>> go home again.
>>
>> In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
>> on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
>> you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
>> launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
>> will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
>> yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
>> else shirks.
>>
>> And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
>> icecaps...
>>
>> A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
>> booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
>> flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
>> in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
>> inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
>> inadequate).
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
> Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it all depends on your
> available time and the level of your incentive, but I'm one instructor who
> believes strongly in the concept of "hanging around the field" as one of
> the strongest learning tools in aviation.
> Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done and why. You also see
> first hand the result of things tried, done, and not done. You learn
> fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and who doesn't.
> All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in HUGE unpaid for
> dividends for those with the time to do it.
> Dudley Henriques