Long winded venting about yEnc

[Andrew-S]

To all my Aviation News Group Friends, fellow aviation enthusiasts, aviation photographers and fellow denizens of the ABPA Newsgroup...

This argument is really getting old and tired. This time though I would even go so far as to say the two sides are actually trying to hurt each other with their words. It is no longer just a debate with valid points on BOTH sides, it seems to be almost a verbal war intent upon forcing each sides will upon the other...

Here are some simple truths for BOTH SIDES to consider, AND I DO MEAN REALLY CONSIDER!!! And not just dismiss as some idle venting.

To the Pro yEnc supporters...
If the group goes to a yEnc permissible stance, a vast number of members will no longer be able to view the images that you post. Many visitors to the newsgroup will leave, some will have valid reasons for their departure such as software, or personal discomfort with the software and no doubt a variety of other reasons. Some as they depart will make grandiose sweeping statements and feel they are making a statement against the evil yEnc, others will simply vanish without even a peep. To these departing members many of you will stick your noses in the air and say "so what..? they are in the stone age". To which my question is why did you bother posting them in the first place if you didn't want as many people as possible to see them? And for that matter in a newsgroup which has some many anti yEnc members why would you post in a such a controversial method? Are you yourselves making a statement or trying to mix it up? I won't even go into the "enlightenment issues" which make yEnc almost sound like a religion.

To the Anti yEnc supporters...
yEnc is simply just another system. There is no reason to be afraid of it, the internet is constantly evolving and this is just another aspect of that evolution. Many in the pro yEnc crowd have with varying degrees in tone suggested numerous software add ons and upgrades to the existing system. Many of which are no doubt well worth exploring. "So what I like what I have now and I don't want to change" is the response many will have. To which I should point out there are dozens if not hundreds of excellent image based newsgroups, some private some public, that for their reasons be it right or wrong have gone over to a yEnc permissible system. If you want to play in those newsgroups or have any aspirations of getting involved in those newsgroups you had better start trying to figure out a way of working with yEnc. Because they will not go back, and NOR SHOULD THEY because they as group have already decided the issue already. By the same token just because someone has a pro yEnc argument it doesn't make them an evil person, it means that they have an opinion THAT IS DIFFERENT TO YOUR OWN. Similarly just as I have accused the pro yEnc supporters of treating their preferred system of posting as a religion bent upon conversion, so too shall I accuse the anti yEnc crowd of targeting anyone who dares to voice a pro yEnc thought.


My past to the present...
In the past with mixed success I have attempted to bring peace to what with minor exception is one of the best NGs on the web. Some accused me of trying to control the group, some accused me of having an agenda of my own. Which in the later could be argued was true. That agenda was to bring peace and attempt to refocus the group upon what we all know and love which is aviation photography.

This time though as I am not even a regular poster anymore, I am not even going to attempt to moderate any of the numerous discussions regarding yEnc. The two sides are just too full of their own self righteous wrath and arrogance. Neither side is prepared to give an inch (or millimeter if you prefer the metric system) and BOTH SIDES seem hell bent on forcing the other side to submit to their will.

So let the fur fly, let the name calling begin, and watch the flames rise as this once great newsgroup self destructs. Which is my prediction if the bickering ON BOTH SIDES CONTINUES.

Andrew

[BlueCumulus[_2_]]

well spoken Andrew,

there sure are many visitors of this newsgroup like me
scanning the entries with Outlook Express. I searched
once a tool to enable to watch yEnc pictures with OE
but I never succeeded. I have no clue which tool might
solve that puzzle. That's why I appreciate each photo
sent to this newsgroup NOT encoded with yEnc.

Chris

[Jim]

I have been using OeyEnc Loader with some success. Not great but it seems
to work.

[MaXiLeeCH]

"BlueCumulus" > wrote in message
...
well spoken Andrew,

there sure are many visitors of this newsgroup like me
scanning the entries with Outlook Express. I searched
once a tool to enable to watch yEnc pictures with OE
but I never succeeded. I have no clue which tool might
solve that puzzle. That's why I appreciate each photo
sent to this newsgroup NOT encoded with yEnc.

Chris


Hi Chris,
I have found just such a tool!
It's called OeyEnc
Basically, its a plugin that allows Outlook Express to view and use yEnc
encoded files on the fly.

I use it here with great success and have yet to find a Yenc encoded file
that I cannot open as per normal in OE.
All the details on it are explained here:
http://www.mutexed.com/code/OeyEnc/

I hope you like it as much as I do.

Whilst I can and do view the yEnc encoded files in this group with OeyEnc,
I am of the opinion that if the majority of users of this group dont want
yEnc here than I am OK with that decision.

--

Jeff Cochrane - VK4BOF
Atherton
Queensland 4883

[B-Hate-Me]

"Andrew-S" <I-Still-Hate-Spammers@Sorry-I had-to-leave-for-bit.com> wrote in message ...
To all my Aviation News Group Friends, fellow aviation enthusiasts, aviation photographers and fellow denizens of the ABPA Newsgroup...

This argument is really getting old and tired.




Seems as if you are the only one arguing.

Can one person argue with himself?

[heavyhorses]

"MaXiLeeCH" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "BlueCumulus" > wrote in message
> ...
> well spoken Andrew,
>
> there sure are many visitors of this newsgroup like me
> scanning the entries with Outlook Express. I searched
> once a tool to enable to watch yEnc pictures with OE
> but I never succeeded. I have no clue which tool might
> solve that puzzle. That's why I appreciate each photo
> sent to this newsgroup NOT encoded with yEnc.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Hi Chris,
> I have found just such a tool!
> It's called OeyEnc
> Basically, its a plugin that allows Outlook Express to view and use yEnc
> encoded files on the fly.
>
> I use it here with great success and have yet to find a Yenc encoded file
> that I cannot open as per normal in OE.
> All the details on it are explained here:
> http://www.mutexed.com/code/OeyEnc/
>
> I hope you like it as much as I do.
>
> Whilst I can and do view the yEnc encoded files in this group with
> OeyEnc, I am of the opinion that if the majority of users of this group
> dont want yEnc here than I am OK with that decision.
>
> --
>
> Jeff Cochrane - VK4BOF
> Atherton
> Queensland 4883
>
>

Given the fact that most posters of yenc manage to encode a crap bmp image
into about 50 parts and just flood out the entire group why bother.

They then complain why people flame them !!!


>

[Rich W]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:40:07 +1000, "BlueCumulus" >
wrote:

>well spoken Andrew,
>
>there sure are many visitors of this newsgroup like me
>scanning the entries with Outlook Express. I searched
>once a tool to enable to watch yEnc pictures with OE
>but I never succeeded. I have no clue which tool might
>solve that puzzle. That's why I appreciate each photo
>sent to this newsgroup NOT encoded with yEnc.
>
>Chris
>

Have you tried using Free Agent? I use it for usenet posts, but you
can also use it for e-mail if you like. I've found it an excellent
programme. Not Trolling so don't have a go at me!!!!

Rich.

[Grumpy AuContraire[_2_]]

There's an old saying, "Where there is smoke there most likely is fire."

In short, if my basic newsreader, (Mozilla), which I have been using for
years in all its versions cannot be made to read graphics by means of a
simple plug in, it ain't gonna work for me.

Until that happens, count me in the "anti" crowd...

JT




Andrew-S wrote:

> To all my Aviation News Group Friends, fellow aviation
> enthusiasts, aviation photographers and fellow denizens of the ABPA
> Newsgroup...
>
> This argument is really getting old and tired. This time though I would
> even go so far as to say the two sides are actually trying to hurt each
> other with their words. It is no longer just a debate with valid points
> on BOTH sides, it seems to be almost a verbal war intent upon forcing
> each sides will upon the other...
>
> Here are some simple truths for BOTH SIDES to consider, AND I DO MEAN
> REALLY CONSIDER!!! And not just dismiss as some idle venting.
>
> To the Pro yEnc supporters...
> If the group goes to a yEnc permissible stance, a vast number of members
> will no longer be able to view the images that you post. Many visitors
> to the newsgroup will leave, some will have valid reasons for their
> departure such as software, or personal discomfort with the software and
> no doubt a variety of other reasons. Some as they depart will make
> grandiose sweeping statements and feel they are making a statement
> against the evil yEnc, others will simply vanish without even a peep.
> To these departing members many of you will stick your noses in the
> air and say "so what..? they are in the stone age". To which my
> question is why did you bother posting them in the first place if you
> didn't want as many people as possible to see them? And for that matter
> in a newsgroup which has some many anti yEnc members why would you post
> in a such a controversial method? Are you yourselves making a
> statement or trying to mix it up? I won't even go into
> the "enlightenment issues" which make yEnc almost sound like a religion.
>
> To the Anti yEnc supporters...
> yEnc is simply just another system. There is no reason to be afraid of
> it, the internet is constantly evolving and this is just another aspect
> of that evolution. Many in the pro yEnc crowd have with varying degrees
> in tone suggested numerous software add ons and upgrades to the existing
> system. Many of which are no doubt well worth exploring. "So what I
> like what I have now and I don't want to change" is the response many
> will have. To which I should point out there are dozens if
> not hundreds of excellent image based newsgroups, some private some
> public, that for their reasons be it right or wrong have gone over to a
> yEnc permissible system. If you want to play in those newsgroups or
> have any aspirations of getting involved in those newsgroups you had
> better start trying to figure out a way of working with yEnc. Because
> they will not go back, and NOR SHOULD THEY because they as group have
> already decided the issue already. By the same token just because
> someone has a pro yEnc argument it doesn't make them an evil person, it
> means that they have an opinion THAT IS DIFFERENT TO YOUR OWN.
> Similarly just as I have accused the pro yEnc supporters of treating
> their preferred system of posting as a religion bent upon conversion, so
> too shall I accuse the anti yEnc crowd of targeting anyone who dares to
> voice a pro yEnc thought.
>
>
> My past to the present...
> In the past with mixed success I have attempted to bring peace to what
> with minor exception is one of the best NGs on the web. Some accused
> me of trying to control the group, some accused me of having an agenda
> of my own. Which in the later could be argued was true. That agenda
> was to bring peace and attempt to refocus the group upon what we all
> know and love which is aviation photography.
>
> This time though as I am not even a regular poster anymore, I am not
> even going to attempt to moderate any of the numerous discussions
> regarding yEnc. The two sides are just too full of their own self
> righteous wrath and arrogance. Neither side is prepared to give an inch
> (or millimeter if you prefer the metric system) and BOTH SIDES seem hell
> bent on forcing the other side to submit to their will.
>
> So let the fur fly, let the name calling begin, and watch the flames
> rise as this once great newsgroup self destructs. Which is my
> prediction if the bickering ON BOTH SIDES CONTINUES.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>

[Herman]

"Grumpy AuContraire" > schreef in bericht
...
> There's an old saying, "Where there is smoke there most likely is fire."
>
> In short, if my basic newsreader, (Mozilla), which I have been using for
> years in all its versions cannot be made to read graphics by means of a
> simple plug in, it ain't gonna work for me.
>
> Until that happens, count me in the "anti" crowd...
>
> JT
>
>
I'm with you.

Regards,

Herman

<SNIP>

[russell[_2_]]

"Herman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Grumpy AuContraire" > schreef in bericht
> ...
>> There's an old saying, "Where there is smoke there most likely is fire."
>>
>> In short, if my basic newsreader, (Mozilla), which I have been using for
>> years in all its versions cannot be made to read graphics by means of a
>> simple plug in, it ain't gonna work for me.
>>
>> Until that happens, count me in the "anti" crowd...
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
> I'm with you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Herman
>
> <SNIP>
>

Well I actually installed Xnews and yDecode last night just to see if
Baldrick was posting crap, but I couldn't get any posts or my emails.
So they were both deleted and I still assume Baldrick is posting CRAP....

[Lonnie]

Either you use yEnc or not. It's your choice. Time to get back on topic
and posting pictures.

Chaplain (COL) Lonnie J. Potter
National Recruiting Coordinator
Headquarters (HQ) Division
United States Corps of Chaplains

[russell[_2_]]

"Lonnie" > wrote in message
.. .
> Either you use yEnc or not. It's your choice. Time to get back on topic
> and posting pictures.
>
> Chaplain (COL) Lonnie J. Potter
> National Recruiting Coordinator
> Headquarters (HQ) Division
> United States Corps of Chaplains
>
>

Hey, I tried...

[russell[_2_]]

[russell[_2_]]

[Glenn[_2_]]

"Lonnie" > wrote in message
.. .
> Either you use yEnc or not. It's your choice. Time to get back on topic
> and posting pictures.
>
> Chaplain (COL) Lonnie J. Potter
> National Recruiting Coordinator
> Headquarters (HQ) Division
> United States Corps of Chaplains
Now that's a nice photo. I'd love to spend a week photographing these
aircraft.

[Bob Harrington]

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 05:29:49 GMT, Bob Harrington
> wrote:

>"B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
:
>
>> Can one person argue with himself?
>
>Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>
>Bob ^,,^
> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just wish I
>could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
I know... that bothers me terribly.

[Jim Morris[_2_]]

Schweet

JM

[Jim Morris[_2_]]

"Herman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Grumpy AuContraire" > schreef in bericht
> ...
>> There's an old saying, "Where there is smoke there most likely is fire."
>>
>> In short, if my basic newsreader, (Mozilla), which I have been using for
>> years in all its versions cannot be made to read graphics by means of a
>> simple plug in, it ain't gonna work for me.
>>
>> Until that happens, count me in the "anti" crowd...
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
> I'm with you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Herman

Me 2

vr,
JM

[Glenn[_2_]]

"Bob Harrington" > wrote in message
...
> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
> :
>
>> Can one person argue with himself?
>
> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>
No yopu can't. because I just joined in ;-)

[Clairbear]

"BlueCumulus" > wrote in
:

>
> ------=_NextPart_001_0030_01C7C58E.01F48B20
> well spoken Andrew,
>
> there sure are many visitors of this newsgroup like me
> scanning the entries with Outlook Express. I searched
> once a tool to enable to watch yEnc pictures with OE
> but I never succeeded. I have no clue which tool might
> solve that puzzle. That's why I appreciate each photo
> sent to this newsgroup NOT encoded with yEnc.
>
> Chris
Chris give xnews a try It works well and decodes yenc without problem, and
is a hell of a lot faster than OE

[Clairbear]

"heavyhorses" > wrote in
k:

> Given the fact that most posters of yenc manage to encode a crap bmp
> image into about 50 parts and just flood out the entire group why
> bother.
>
> They then complain why people flame them !!!

actually I have seen very few bmp files here yenc or not

[Clairbear]

"B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in
:

....
>
> This argument is really getting old and tired.
>
>
>
>
> Seems as if you are the only one arguing.
>
> Can one person argue with himself?
>
>
>


Great shot What was it that go shot down?

[Clairbear]

Bob Harrington > wrote in
:

> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
> :
>
>> Can one person argue with himself?
>
> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>
> Bob ^,,^
> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just
> wish I
> could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
>
I use xnews but I have never had it post yenc files
Don't know how but it iseems to be

[JRW]

Clairbear wrote:
> Bob Harrington > wrote in
> :
>
>> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
>> :
>>
>>> Can one person argue with himself?
>> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>>
>> Bob ^,,^
>> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just
>> wish I
>> could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
>>
> I use xnews but I have never had it post yenc files
> Don't know how but it iseems to be
>
Bear, I use XNEWS also for mass postings and have NEVER posted with it
in YEnc although I can :o))

Now decoding with XNEWS is a breeze... Great program and free.

[Clairbear]

"russell" > wrote in
:

>
> "Herman" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Grumpy AuContraire" > schreef in bericht
>> ...
>>> There's an old saying, "Where there is smoke there most likely is
>>> fire."
>>>
>>> In short, if my basic newsreader, (Mozilla), which I have been using
>>> for years in all its versions cannot be made to read graphics by
>>> means of a simple plug in, it ain't gonna work for me.
>>>
>>> Until that happens, count me in the "anti" crowd...
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>>
>> I'm with you.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Herman
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>
> Well I actually installed Xnews and yDecode last night just to see if
> Baldrick was posting crap, but I couldn't get any posts or my emails.
> So they were both deleted and I still assume Baldrick is posting
> CRAP....
>
>
>
>
>

try reading the xnews manual
I know real men don't need directions but give it a try

[Clairbear]

"Lonnie" > wrote in
:

> Either you use yEnc or not. It's your choice. Time to get back on
> topic and posting pictures.
>
> Chaplain (COL) Lonnie J. Potter
> National Recruiting Coordinator
> Headquarters (HQ) Division
> United States Corps of Chaplains
>
>
> begin 666 ph-12779.jpg
>
> Attachment saved: C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\My
> Documents\Xnews\ph-12779.jpg `
> end
>
>

Great shot lonnies where'd you take it

[Clairbear]

JRW > wrote in news:469a85d4$0$29938$dbd49001
@news.wanadoo.nl:

> Clairbear wrote:
>> Bob Harrington > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Can one person argue with himself?
>>> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>>>
>>> Bob ^,,^
>>> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just
>>> wish I
>>> could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
>>>
>> I use xnews but I have never had it post yenc files
>> Don't know how but it iseems to be
>>
> Bear, I use XNEWS also for mass postings and have NEVER posted with it
> in YEnc although I can :o))
>
> Now decoding with XNEWS is a breeze... Great program and free.
>

All this yenc stuff is like a Shakespeare play "Much Ado About Nothing"

[Don Pyeatt]

"Clairbear" > wrote in message
...
> JRW > wrote in news:469a85d4$0$29938$dbd49001
> @news.wanadoo.nl:
>
>> Clairbear wrote:
>>> Bob Harrington > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> Can one person argue with himself?
>>>> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>>>>
>>>> Bob ^,,^
>>>> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just
>>>> wish I
>>>> could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
>>>>
>>> I use xnews but I have never had it post yenc files
>>> Don't know how but it iseems to be
>>>
>> Bear, I use XNEWS also for mass postings and have NEVER posted with it
>> in YEnc although I can :o))
>>
>> Now decoding with XNEWS is a breeze... Great program and free.
>>
>
> All this yenc stuff is like a Shakespeare play "Much Ado About Nothing"


Does this mean you are going to stop leading the yEnc babble and start
posting pictures?

[JRW]

Clairbear wrote:
> JRW > wrote in news:469a85d4$0$29938$dbd49001
> @news.wanadoo.nl:
>
>> Clairbear wrote:
>>> Bob Harrington > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> Can one person argue with himself?
>>>> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>>>>
>>>> Bob ^,,^
>>>> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just
>>>> wish I
>>>> could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
>>>>
>>> I use xnews but I have never had it post yenc files
>>> Don't know how but it iseems to be
>>>
>> Bear, I use XNEWS also for mass postings and have NEVER posted with it
>> in YEnc although I can :o))
>>
>> Now decoding with XNEWS is a breeze... Great program and free.
>>
>
> All this yenc stuff is like a Shakespeare play "Much Ado About Nothing"


Yup, either get a reader or don't open the file...simple.

[JRW]

Don Pyeatt wrote:
> "Clairbear" > wrote in message
> ...
>> JRW > wrote in news:469a85d4$0$29938$dbd49001
>> @news.wanadoo.nl:
>>
>>> Clairbear wrote:
>>>> Bob Harrington > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s-
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can one person argue with himself?
>>>>> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob ^,,^
>>>>> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just
>>>>> wish I
>>>>> could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
>>>>>
>>>> I use xnews but I have never had it post yenc files
>>>> Don't know how but it iseems to be
>>>>
>>> Bear, I use XNEWS also for mass postings and have NEVER posted with it
>>> in YEnc although I can :o))
>>>
>>> Now decoding with XNEWS is a breeze... Great program and free.
>>>
>> All this yenc stuff is like a Shakespeare play "Much Ado About Nothing"
>
>
> Does this mean you are going to stop leading the yEnc babble and start
> posting pictures?
>
>
Yes, as soon as you post one :o))
I see you complaining, but no picture either...hummmmmmmm
posted aerial view of Soesterberg AB, Netherlands.

JRW

[Clairbear]

"Don Pyeatt" > wrote in
:

>
> "Clairbear" > wrote in message
> ...
>> JRW > wrote in news:469a85d4$0$29938$dbd49001
>> @news.wanadoo.nl:
>>
>>> Clairbear wrote:
>>>> Bob Harrington > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> "B-Hate-Me" <B-Hate-Me@home> wrote in
>>>>> news:c_CdnYkwZqHH-grbnZ2dnUVZ_s- :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can one person argue with himself?
>>>>> Yes, I can. No, I can't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob ^,,^
>>>>> - yEnc capable, but happy to abide by the group's desires. Just
>>>>> wish I
>>>>> could get XNews to ~not~ post in yEnc by default...
>>>>>
>>>> I use xnews but I have never had it post yenc files
>>>> Don't know how but it iseems to be
>>>>
>>> Bear, I use XNEWS also for mass postings and have NEVER posted with
>>> it in YEnc although I can :o))
>>>
>>> Now decoding with XNEWS is a breeze... Great program and free.
>>>
>>
>> All this yenc stuff is like a Shakespeare play "Much Ado About
>> Nothing"
>
>
> Does this mean you are going to stop leading the yEnc babble and start
> posting pictures?
>
>
>

I post them when I have something more or original
As to the "yEnc babble", have ttried to be reasonable this pointing out
that when I Post pics I don't use it but I think that having a
newsreader that is capable of reading it is a lot smarter than babbling
about it and flaming those who choose to use it By the way here is the
wikipedia article about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YEnc

Here are articles about the bad and good of yenc
http://exit109.com/~jeremy/news/yenc.html
http://www.germane-software.com/~ser/Files/Software/yEnc.html

So it is all POV

Those against froth at the mouth any time it is mention
Those for it are not forcing anyone to use it and can live with or
without it
Try being reasonable about instead of trying to start a bitch fight with
others over it Like I said I don't post it but I will download it

[Bob Harrington]