Gear up takeoff

[john smith[_2_]]

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, SANK DOWN ONTO RUNWAY WITH GEAR RETRACTED, FORT
LAUDERDALE, FL

Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
throttle for takeoff?

[Ross]

john smith wrote:
> DESCRIPTION
> AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, SANK DOWN ONTO RUNWAY WITH GEAR RETRACTED, FORT
> LAUDERDALE, FL
>
> Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
> throttle for takeoff?

My father was an B-25 instructor in CA during WWII. He said some of the
cadets would do this and the CO would be real mad when the B-25 settled
back to earth.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[gpaleo]

Ï "john smith" > Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
...
>
> DESCRIPTION
> AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, SANK DOWN ONTO RUNWAY WITH GEAR RETRACTED, FORT
> LAUDERDALE, FL
>
> Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
> throttle for takeoff?



No, that's ignoring the little check-list item "...positive rate of climb,
gear up, ....."

[Montblack]

("Ross" wrote)
> My father was an B-25 instructor in CA during WWII. He said some of the
> cadets would do this and the CO would be real mad when the B-25 settled
> back to earth.


B-25 ....BOMBER!

I'm with the CO on this one. :-)


Paul-Mont

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Montblack" > wrote:

> ("Ross" wrote)
> > My father was an B-25 instructor in CA during WWII. He said some of the
> > cadets would do this and the CO would be real mad when the B-25 settled
> > back to earth.
>
>
> B-25 ....BOMBER!
>
> I'm with the CO on this one. :-)
>
>
> Paul-Mont

Bombers have an advantage over other types on these types of takeoffs.
When you feel the aircraft starting to settle, you can just hit the button
and drop your load. The sudden decrease in aircraft weight will give you
the extra performance boost you need to start climbing.

[flynrider via AviationKB.com]

john smith wrote:
>DESCRIPTION
> AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, SANK DOWN ONTO RUNWAY WITH GEAR RETRACTED, FORT
> LAUDERDALE, FL
>
>Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
>throttle for takeoff?

It could be. On some aircraft, as soon as pressure on the squat switch is
relieved, the gear will start coming up if the gear handle is in the "up"
position. On the other hand, this could be a case of the pilot pulling the
gear up prematurely on the takeoff run.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Roy Smith]

In article <755395d04533f@uwe>,
"flynrider via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:

> On some aircraft, as soon as pressure on the squat switch is
> relieved, the gear will start coming up if the gear handle is in the "up"
> position.

Are there any aircraft for which that is NOT the case?

[Gatt]

"Ross" > wrote in message
...

>> Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
>> throttle for takeoff?
>
> My father was an B-25 instructor in CA during WWII. He said some of the
> cadets would do this and the CO would be real mad when the B-25 settled
> back to earth.

Some/all B-17s will do that too. When Evergreen turned me loose in their
bird (flipped on the battery and open the bomb bay for some visiting WWII
vets) I was specifically briefed NOT to bump the landing gear lever or it
would be a very bad day at the hangar. I've had more than one nightmare of
doing just that since.

When I started flying retractables, it really spooked me out all over again
for a bit.

-c

[Gatt]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...

>> I'm with the CO on this one. :-)
>>
>> Paul-Mont
>
> Bombers have an advantage over other types on these types of takeoffs.
> When you feel the aircraft starting to settle, you can just hit the button
> and drop your load. The sudden decrease in aircraft weight will give you
> the extra performance boost you need to start climbing.

I'm sure that's very comforting to the folks aft of the bomb bay. :>

-c

[Ron Natalie]

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <755395d04533f@uwe>,
> "flynrider via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:
>
>> On some aircraft, as soon as pressure on the squat switch is
>> relieved, the gear will start coming up if the gear handle is in the "up"
>> position.
>
> Are there any aircraft for which that is NOT the case?

There's no squat switch on the gear on the Navion. There's no
electrical components in the retraction/extension system at
all. It's 100% hydraulic. The only thing that keeps the main
retracting is the airplane is too heavy for the actuators. The
nose will come up with the amount of pressure from the engine
driven hydraulic pump being turned by the starter.

Johnson-bar mooneys are similar.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Roy Smith" > wrote

> Bombers have an advantage over other types on these types of takeoffs.
> When you feel the aircraft starting to settle, you can just hit the button
> and drop your load. The sudden decrease in aircraft weight will give you
> the extra performance boost you need to start climbing.

But, even IF the bombs were hot, it would be helpful if the bomb bay doors
were opened, first. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Gatt" > wrote

> Some/all B-17s will do that too. When Evergreen turned me loose in their
> bird (flipped on the battery and open the bomb bay for some visiting WWII
> vets) I was specifically briefed NOT to bump the landing gear lever or it
> would be a very bad day at the hangar. I've had more than one nightmare
> of doing just that since.

Did the B-17 not have landing gear locking safety pins to keep that from
happening once they were safely on the ground?
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:37:07 -0400, "Morgans" > wrote:

>
>"Roy Smith" > wrote
>
>> Bombers have an advantage over other types on these types of takeoffs.
>> When you feel the aircraft starting to settle, you can just hit the button
>> and drop your load. The sudden decrease in aircraft weight will give you
>> the extra performance boost you need to start climbing.
>
>But, even IF the bombs were hot, it would be helpful if the bomb bay doors
>were opened, first. <g>

IIRC, the B-17 (and probably all other US bombers) had a safety cable across the
lower part of the bomb bay which would open the doors if a bomb inadvertently
dropped.

Ron Wanttaja

[john hawkins]

don't know anything about the cited incident but. Ever watch an older
mooney doing the gearup dip on takeoff? pulling that johnson bar takes your
attention off the flight attitude.

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> DESCRIPTION
> AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, SANK DOWN ONTO RUNWAY WITH GEAR RETRACTED, FORT
> LAUDERDALE, FL
>
> Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
> throttle for takeoff?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:26:45 +0000, john hawkins wrote:

> don't know anything about the cited incident but. Ever watch an older
> mooney doing the gearup dip on takeoff? pulling that johnson bar takes
> your attention off the flight attitude.

Cessna gear (ie. an R182) folds under in such a way that drag is
increased during the retraction (or extension) beyond the level of drag
with the gear extended (or retracted, of course {8^). I've never thought
it that much that it would cause an altitude loss, but perhaps under the
right circumstances...?

- Andrew

[pgbnh]

Have not read the details, but I offer one vote for the cause being an
attempt to retract FLAPS and laying a hand on the wrong switch
"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> DESCRIPTION
> AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, SANK DOWN ONTO RUNWAY WITH GEAR RETRACTED, FORT
> LAUDERDALE, FL
>
> Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
> throttle for takeoff?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:43:18 -0400, pgbnh wrote:

> the cause being an
> attempt to retract FLAPS

Why do so on t/o that close to the runway?

- Andrew

[Al G[_2_]]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:26:45 +0000, john hawkins wrote:
>
>> don't know anything about the cited incident but. Ever watch an older
>> mooney doing the gearup dip on takeoff? pulling that johnson bar takes
>> your attention off the flight attitude.
>
> Cessna gear (ie. an R182) folds under in such a way that drag is
> increased during the retraction (or extension) beyond the level of drag
> with the gear extended (or retracted, of course {8^). I've never thought
> it that much that it would cause an altitude loss, but perhaps under the
> right circumstances...?
>
> - Andrew
>

The old 210's and skymasters were the same way. Once all of those doors
start opening, there is
a slew of new drag. An Ex-Boss of mine was demonstrating the squat switch
to a prospective buyer, when he retracted the 210 nose gear while sitting
firmly on the ground.

Al G

[Peter Dohm]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gatt" > wrote
>
> > Some/all B-17s will do that too. When Evergreen turned me loose in
their
> > bird (flipped on the battery and open the bomb bay for some visiting
WWII
> > vets) I was specifically briefed NOT to bump the landing gear lever or
it
> > would be a very bad day at the hangar. I've had more than one nightmare
> > of doing just that since.
>
> Did the B-17 not have landing gear locking safety pins to keep that from
> happening once they were safely on the ground?
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>
I don't believe so. The mechanism is jack screws, rather than hydraulic or
pneumatic, so they should not be needed.

Peter

[Ricky]

On Jul 17, 5:10 pm, Roy Smith > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> "Montblack" > wrote:
> > ("Ross" wrote)
> > > My father was an B-25 instructor in CA during WWII. He said some of the
> > > cadets would do this and the CO would be real mad when the B-25 settled
> > > back to earth.
>
> > B-25 ....BOMBER!
>
> > I'm with the CO on this one. :-)
>
> > Paul-Mont
>
> Bombers have an advantage over other types on these types of takeoffs.
> When you feel the aircraft starting to settle, you can just hit the button
> and drop your load. The sudden decrease in aircraft weight will give you
> the extra performance boost you need to start climbing.

When you say "drop your load" do you mean drop the bombs?
Is it the decrease in weight or the exploding bombs that gave that
"extra performance boost you need to start climbing?"

Ricky

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jul 17, 1:04 pm, john smith > wrote:
> DESCRIPTION
> AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, SANK DOWN ONTO RUNWAY WITH GEAR RETRACTED, FORT
> LAUDERDALE, FL
>
> Is this an example of putting the gear lever up before advancing the
> throttle for takeoff?

Not sure, I wasn't onboard at the time.
-Robert, CFII

[Tina]

John, my husband used to fly a Mooney Ranger with the manually
retracted gear, and he always added a little forward pressure on the
yoke when pulling them up to reduce the force on the Joe bar. The
'dip' was on purpose. He had enough air under him when he did it,
though. What he says is, the gear stays down until you're sure you're
not going to need it, and that means being pretty high when operating
off a 5000 foot runway.

Does anyone know if the wheels on those Mooneys were interlocked to
prevent someone from pulling on the Jor bar while the wheels still
carried weight?

[[email protected]]

On Jul 18, 2:51 pm, "Al G" > wrote:
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:26:45 +0000, john hawkins wrote:
>
> >> don't know anything about the cited incident but. Ever watch an older
> >> mooney doing the gearup dip on takeoff? pulling that johnson bar takes
> >> your attention off the flight attitude.
>
> > Cessna gear (ie. an R182) folds under in such a way that drag is
> > increased during the retraction (or extension) beyond the level of drag
> > with the gear extended (or retracted, of course {8^). I've never thought
> > it that much that it would cause an altitude loss, but perhaps under the
> > right circumstances...?
>
> > - Andrew
>
> The old 210's and skymasters were the same way. Once all of those doors
> start opening, there is
> a slew of new drag. An Ex-Boss of mine was demonstrating the squat switch
> to a prospective buyer, when he retracted the 210 nose gear while sitting
> firmly on the ground.
>
> Al G

We have an R182. The gear retracting will bring the nose
up as the weight of the mains shifts back. The altitude doesn't want
to change much with the gear in transit. The main wheels are small-
diameter, wider 15 x 6.00-6's, and they don't have much more drag
sideways than they do edge-on.
The nosewheel has the squat switch. The mains, being
spring-steel tubes, don't have any movement to fire a squat switch.
This is a distinct disadvantage, becuase the nosegear has to be
collapsed a little to open the switch, and in the landing roll the
strut can remain extended until brakes are applied. Add to that the
often-sticky oleo setup on these things, and you have a switch that
might remain closed until tiedown. A decent pilot will use aerodynamic
braking and will be careful not to slam the nose onto the runway, so
that silly squat switch is closed for a long time after touchdown and
if he has the habit of grabbing the flap switch in the rollout he'll
sooner or later select gear-up instead and get a nasty surprise. We
nearly had it happen once during an evaluation of another pilot.

Dan

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 05:00:45 -0000, Ricky >
wrote:

>On Jul 17, 5:10 pm, Roy Smith > wrote:
>> In article >,
>>
>> "Montblack" > wrote:
>> > ("Ross" wrote)
>> > > My father was an B-25 instructor in CA during WWII. He said some of the
>> > > cadets would do this and the CO would be real mad when the B-25 settled
>> > > back to earth.
>>
>> > B-25 ....BOMBER!
>>
>> > I'm with the CO on this one. :-)
>>
>> > Paul-Mont
>>
>> Bombers have an advantage over other types on these types of takeoffs.
>> When you feel the aircraft starting to settle, you can just hit the button
>> and drop your load. The sudden decrease in aircraft weight will give you
>> the extra performance boost you need to start climbing.
>
>When you say "drop your load" do you mean drop the bombs?
>Is it the decrease in weight or the exploding bombs that gave that
>"extra performance boost you need to start climbing?"

They shouldn't travel far enough for the fuses to be armed. That's
what that little propeller does.
>
>Ricky