Cambridge FR, Sector OZ, Badges

[[email protected]]

I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?

TIA
Jim

[Stewart Kissel]

There are a couple of threads on this topic...from
a few years ago. I went through them looking for the
same information you are. Unless something has changed
recently...you have to get into the sector...which
means flying past the cylinder. This technique was
described by a couple of different pilots in these
old threads. Googling should dig out these old posts.
Good luck.

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

wrote:
> I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
> and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
> thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?

Nothing is "hard wired" into the flight recorder itself. The
determination whether you were using cylinder or sector OZs occurs
during post-flight analysis of the IGC file. What can cause confusion
is that some flight recorders will provide a signal during flight
indicating that one has "arrived" or entered an OZ. The GPS-NAV display
provides this signal when one passes within a pre-determined distance of
the currently selected turnpoint, which is why some believe that
Cambridge flight recorders only support cylinders.

If you have moving map software that is driven by the 302A, just fly
through the displayed sector OZ, and you should be fine. In any case, a
little practice will help make sure that you don't manage to miss an OZ
on your big day...

Marc

[[email protected]]

On Jul 19, 11:01 am, wrote:
> I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
> and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
> thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>
> TIA
> Jim

My 302/303 will indicate sector entry when a task is active. I
believe it's a feature of the 303 only, but can't be sure. Although
based on the documentation for the 303, it is not compatible with the
302A. So you might be out of luck. You could contact the folks at
Cambridge to find out for sure.

Dave

[5Z]

On Jul 19, 10:01 am, wrote:
> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?

There is no need to declare the type of OZ to use. Just be sure that
all your TP approaches are of the same type.

Are you using a PDA to navigate from the data stream provided by the
302A? Then the PDA map will get you to the right place.

I don't recall whether the 302 can be set up to beep when within a
predefined distance to the TP (I have a 302, but use the PDA to
navigate, so never bothered to see if that was possible). If it can,
then you could use it to fly a cylinder OZ type task.

If you want to fly a sector OZ type task, then you must have at least
a display that provides bearing to the TP that will help you get to
the right place. If you have no display, then your TPs had better be
easily identifiable places, and you must be very sure you are in the
OZ before changing course.

If you are using a different source of GPS info, perhaps a handheld,
to navigate, then you must again be sure not to barely clip the OZ, as
the two GPS devices could be off by a few hundred feet. So even
though the handheld unit claims you were barely within the OZ, the IGC
FR may still be showing a position outside the OZ.

-Tom

[Gary Emerson]

wrote:
> I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
> and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
> thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>
> TIA
> Jim
>

Three different items here.

1. If the task you are flying requires you to fly sectors (per the
badge rules) then you better fly around the turnpoint in that manner.
If the rules allow cylinders, (I'm not sure if they do or don't) then
you can do it that way. Last time I flew a badge I think it was only
sectors, but that's been a few years, maybe it's changed.

2. The FR will record where you go no matter what you've declared. You
will want to make sure that your flight path will log the necessary
datapoints either inside the cylinder or passing through the sector.

3. As mentioned above, some of the PDA software or even hardware that
gives information during your flight can be programmed to beep if you
get close enough to a turnpoint. If you need to fly sectors, then the
beep will probably NOT guarantee that you have flown around the
turnpoint as required. Best to zoom in on your PDA and make sure your
track goes through the sector.

[[email protected]]

There is a lot to be said for trying to round each turnpoint so it can
later be counted as either a cylinder or sector turnpoint. It might
save your flight if you make a small error on one of the turnpoints or
finish. It did for my gold distance - and that was a tough flight
involving a near landout and ridge soaring for a while to get out of a
hole, so I really wanted it to count.

Darryl


On Jul 19, 9:24 am, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> wrote:
> > I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
> > and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
> > thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
> > Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> > Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> > intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>
> Nothing is "hard wired" into the flight recorder itself. The
> determination whether you were using cylinder or sector OZs occurs
> during post-flight analysis of the IGC file. What can cause confusion
> is that some flight recorders will provide a signal during flight
> indicating that one has "arrived" or entered an OZ. The GPS-NAV display
> provides this signal when one passes within a pre-determined distance of
> the currently selected turnpoint, which is why some believe that
> Cambridge flight recorders only support cylinders.
>
> If you have moving map software that is driven by the 302A, just fly
> through the displayed sector OZ, and you should be fine. In any case, a
> little practice will help make sure that you don't manage to miss an OZ
> on your big day...
>
> Marc

[ContestID67]

On Jul 19, 11:22 am, Stewart Kissel
> wrote:

> Unless something has changed
> recently...you have to get into the sector...which
> means flying past the cylinder.

Slight correction in wording might be in order. This may be totally
obvious.

A Cyclinder is centered over the turn point. The Sector is beyond the
turn point (from the direction of the previous turn point). So
"flying past the cyclinder" will work if you go all the way around the
cyclinder. However, you only need to get into the Sector, not all the
way around the cyclinder.

To define the Sector, draw a line from turnpoint A to turnpoint B.
Draw another line from turnpoint B to turnpoint C. Draw another line
from turnpoint C back to turnpoint A. Make sure to draw the lines so
that they extend past the turnpoint. The tails of the lines that are
beyond the turnpoints define the sector which basically goes on
forever as a ever expanding pie wedge.

When going for a distance badge (versus a contest) there is no sense
going too far into the Sector as the distance measure is only to the
turn point, not beyond. In contests the extra distance can count for
something (depends) but not in badge flying.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 19, 2:37 pm, 5Z > wrote:
> On Jul 19, 10:01 am, wrote:
>
> > Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> > Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> > intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>
> There is no need to declare the type of OZ to use. Just be sure that
> all your TP approaches are of the same type.
>
> Are you using a PDA to navigate from the data stream provided by the
> 302A? Then the PDA map will get you to the right place.
>
> I don't recall whether the 302 can be set up to beep when within a
> predefined distance to the TP (I have a 302, but use the PDA to
> navigate, so never bothered to see if that was possible). If it can,
> then you could use it to fly a cylinder OZ type task.
>
> If you want to fly a sector OZ type task, then you must have at least
> a display that provides bearing to the TP that will help you get to
> the right place. If you have no display, then your TPs had better be
> easily identifiable places, and you must be very sure you are in the
> OZ before changing course.
>
> If you are using a different source of GPS info, perhaps a handheld,
> to navigate, then you must again be sure not to barely clip the OZ, as
> the two GPS devices could be off by a few hundred feet. So even
> though the handheld unit claims you were barely within the OZ, the IGC
> FR may still be showing a position outside the OZ.
>
> -Tom

Okay,
What I THINK I'm getting here is that IF I flew into the Sector for
the Start, Finish, and any Turnpoints, then I'm okay. That works for
me. On the flight in question, I had ASSUMED that Sector OZ's were
the default. Accordingly, I didn't bother to fly directly over the
turnpoint, since by that time I had decided to go far beyond it, and
would consequently be spending a LOT of time (roughly an hour and a
half) in the Sector before heading back.

[HL Falbaum]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jul 19, 2:37 pm, 5Z > wrote:
>> On Jul 19, 10:01 am, wrote:
>>
>> > Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
>> > Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
>> > intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>>
>> There is no need to declare the type of OZ to use. Just be sure that
>> all your TP approaches are of the same type.
>>
>> Are you using a PDA to navigate from the data stream provided by the
>> 302A? Then the PDA map will get you to the right place.
>>
>> I don't recall whether the 302 can be set up to beep when within a
>> predefined distance to the TP (I have a 302, but use the PDA to
>> navigate, so never bothered to see if that was possible). If it can,
>> then you could use it to fly a cylinder OZ type task.
>>
>> If you want to fly a sector OZ type task, then you must have at least
>> a display that provides bearing to the TP that will help you get to
>> the right place. If you have no display, then your TPs had better be
>> easily identifiable places, and you must be very sure you are in the
>> OZ before changing course.
>>
>> If you are using a different source of GPS info, perhaps a handheld,
>> to navigate, then you must again be sure not to barely clip the OZ, as
>> the two GPS devices could be off by a few hundred feet. So even
>> though the handheld unit claims you were barely within the OZ, the IGC
>> FR may still be showing a position outside the OZ.
>>
>> -Tom
>
> Okay,
> What I THINK I'm getting here is that IF I flew into the Sector for
> the Start, Finish, and any Turnpoints, then I'm okay. That works for
> me. On the flight in question, I had ASSUMED that Sector OZ's were
> the default. Accordingly, I didn't bother to fly directly over the
> turnpoint, since by that time I had decided to go far beyond it, and
> would consequently be spending a LOT of time (roughly an hour and a
> half) in the Sector before heading back.
>
>

We can be more helpful if we know you are using a PDA with moving map
software, or not. Are you using a 303 as well? Are you navigating by map and
using the FR to document?

The 302 (and I assume the 302A) can be set up to beep when you are within
the approach radius. this radius can be set to zero. This is a cylinder OZ.
Your declaration does not differentiate between cylinder and sector OZ

For badges---you can use a cylinder of 0.5 Km but distance penalties may
apply. *For start and finish sectors, the leg is only 0.5 Km.* For turnpoint
sector OZ the leg is infinite. Start and Finish lines are 1 Km centered on
the start point. If you miss, you lose! Download and read the SC3 AL7 for
gliders from the FAI website---guaranteed cure for insomnia.

Good luck
Hartley "KF" Falbaum
USA

[Paul Remde]

Hi Dave,

Your 303 can indicate when you fly into a cylinder, but not when you fly
into a "photo sector".

Paul Remde

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jul 19, 11:01 am, wrote:
>> I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
>> and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
>> thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
>> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
>> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
>> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>>
>> TIA
>> Jim
>
> My 302/303 will indicate sector entry when a task is active. I
> believe it's a feature of the 303 only, but can't be sure. Although
> based on the documentation for the 303, it is not compatible with the
> 302A. So you might be out of luck. You could contact the folks at
> Cambridge to find out for sure.
>
> Dave
>

[Papa3]

On Jul 19, 12:01 pm, wrote:
> I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
> and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
> thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>
> TIA
> Jim
If you're flying with (for example) Glide Navigaor II, you can select
an option to "show FAI sectors" under the task menu item.

A trick I used for a really important 500K triangle flight when I was
just using the GPS-NAV LCD display was to set up a "shadow" waypoint
within the sector. As I got close to the turnpoint, I would navigate
to the shadow waypoint instead. When it said "0" distance to go, I
knew I was in the FAI sector.

So if Turnpoint 1 was Smith Airport (which is what was in the
declaration), I had Smith Airport Sector (actually Smthaptsector) in
the database as well. That's really overkill, since you can usually
eyeball it, but it it's really that important...

[[email protected]]

On Jul 19, 3:17 pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
[snip]
> 1. If the task you are flying requires you to fly sectors (per the
> badge rules) then you better fly around the turnpoint in that manner.
> If the rules allow cylinders, (I'm not sure if they do or don't) then
> you can do it that way. Last time I flew a badge I think it was only
> sectors, but that's been a few years, maybe it's changed.

Please lets stop confusing peple on this. As Marc pointed out nothing
anywhere for any FAI badge dictates wether you use a cylinder (aka
"beercan") or a FAI sector. That is purely a choice the pilot can
make, usually before the flight so they know that they are trying to
do, or try to round turnpoints so they count as both a cylinder and a
sector after the flight or if you mess up you can change what you
decide to use after the flight if it will make your flight count - as
long as all waypoints get rounded correctly as the same type -
cylinder or sector, you can't mix and match within one flight. Wether
you use cylinders or sectors is not part of any rule governing badge
flights or a part of any declaration made before the flight.

The only thing in past badge flights that would have dictated sectors
would have been flights before GNSS use was widespread and cylinders
were allowed.

Doing badge flights either as a pilot or as an OO (or watching either
from a distance) can be utterly frustrating until all parties have
carefully read FAI annex C. It really is a little opaque on first read
but is not too hard to understand and reading it before tryign to do
badges is likely to save much heartache later. http://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc3.asp


Darryl
(OO for a sucessful diamond goal flight last week)

[ZL]

From the 303 Manual:

If a Task is active, the 303-NAV gives an additional message when the
glider enters the FAI Photo Sector for the Active Task Turnpoint. Three
loud, short beeps are accompanied by the message “In Sector” on the 303
HOME screen. The “In Sector” message takes priority over both the
“Approaching” and “Arrival!” messages. The outer boundary of the DDV
“FAI Sector” is at the “Approaching” radius.

So it will give you messages for both "beer can" and "photo sector", and
you don't even have to choose ahead of time which you like!

Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Your 303 can indicate when you fly into a cylinder, but not when you fly
> into a "photo sector".
>
> Paul Remde
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> On Jul 19, 11:01 am, wrote:
>>> I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
>>> and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
>>> thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
>>> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
>>> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
>>> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>> Jim
>> My 302/303 will indicate sector entry when a task is active. I
>> believe it's a feature of the 303 only, but can't be sure. Although
>> based on the documentation for the 303, it is not compatible with the
>> 302A. So you might be out of luck. You could contact the folks at
>> Cambridge to find out for sure.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Jul 19, 7:27 pm, " >
wrote:
> On Jul 19, 3:17 pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > 1. If the task you are flying requires you to fly sectors (per the
> > badge rules) then you better fly around the turnpoint in that manner.
> > If the rules allow cylinders, (I'm not sure if they do or don't) then
> > you can do it that way. Last time I flew a badge I think it was only
> > sectors, but that's been a few years, maybe it's changed.
>
> Please lets stop confusing peple on this. As Marc pointed out nothing
> anywhere for any FAI badge dictates wether you use a cylinder (aka
> "beercan") or a FAI sector. That is purely a choice the pilot can
> make, usually before the flight so they know that they are trying to
> do, or try to round turnpoints so they count as both a cylinder and a
> sector after the flight or if you mess up you can change what you
> decide to use after the flight if it will make your flight count - as
> long as all waypoints get rounded correctly as the same type -
> cylinder or sector, you can't mix and match within one flight. Wether
> you use cylinders or sectors is not part of any rule governing badge
> flights or a part of any declaration made before the flight.
>
> The only thing in past badge flights that would have dictated sectors
> would have been flights before GNSS use was widespread and cylinders
> were allowed.
>
> Doing badge flights either as a pilot or as an OO (or watching either
> from a distance) can be utterly frustrating until all parties have
> carefully read FAI annex C. It really is a little opaque on first read
> but is not too hard to understand and reading it before tryign to do
> badges is likely to save much heartache later.http://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc3.asp
>
> Darryl
> (OO for a sucessful diamond goal flight last week)

Thanks for clearing that up Darryl. The Sporting code is great at
describing WHAT a cylinder OZ and FAI Sector OZ are. I was just
trying to figure out if one had to (or could) "DECLARE" in some way
WHICH would be used.
Thanks,
Jim N16UF

[[email protected]]

On Jul 19, 9:40 pm, wrote:
> On Jul 19, 7:27 pm, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 19, 3:17 pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> > > 1. If the task you are flying requires you to fly sectors (per the
> > > badge rules) then you better fly around the turnpoint in that manner.
> > > If the rules allow cylinders, (I'm not sure if they do or don't) then
> > > you can do it that way. Last time I flew a badge I think it was only
> > > sectors, but that's been a few years, maybe it's changed.
>
> > Please lets stop confusing peple on this. As Marc pointed out nothing
> > anywhere for any FAI badge dictates wether you use a cylinder (aka
> > "beercan") or a FAI sector. That is purely a choice the pilot can
> > make, usually before the flight so they know that they are trying to
> > do, or try to round turnpoints so they count as both a cylinder and a
> > sector after the flight or if you mess up you can change what you
> > decide to use after the flight if it will make your flight count - as
> > long as all waypoints get rounded correctly as the same type -
> > cylinder or sector, you can't mix and match within one flight. Wether
> > you use cylinders or sectors is not part of any rule governing badge
> > flights or a part of any declaration made before the flight.
>
> > The only thing in past badge flights that would have dictated sectors
> > would have been flights before GNSS use was widespread and cylinders
> > were allowed.
>
> > Doing badge flights either as a pilot or as an OO (or watching either
> > from a distance) can be utterly frustrating until all parties have
> > carefully read FAI annex C. It really is a little opaque on first read
> > but is not too hard to understand and reading it before tryign to do
> > badges is likely to save much heartache later.http://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc3.asp
>
> > Darryl
> > (OO for a sucessful diamond goal flight last week)
>
> Thanks for clearing that up Darryl. The Sporting code is great at
> describing WHAT a cylinder OZ and FAI Sector OZ are. I was just
> trying to figure out if one had to (or could) "DECLARE" in some way
> WHICH would be used.
> Thanks,
> Jim N16UF

BTW this question *is* answered in Annex C -- Section 4.6 clarifies
the turnpoint type is not part of a declaration. I know it is hard to
read on the first pass but a lot of stuff is explained there. And for
full disclosure, this also was an item I was confused on on my early
badge flights.

Darryl

[[email protected]]

On Jul 19, 8:38 pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Your 303 can indicate when you fly into a cylinder, but not when you fly
> into a "photo sector".
>
> Paul Remde
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 19, 11:01 am, wrote:
> >> I understand the characteristics of the Sector OZ and the Cylinder OZ,
> >> and for my badge flights, I would prefer to use the Sector OZ. An RAS
> >> thread back in 2000 (before I started flying) seems to indicate that
> >> Cambridge FRs are "hard wired" to the Cylinder OZ. I have a 302A CFR.
> >> Does that mean I'm stuck with Cylinder OZ's, or can you "declare"
> >> intent to use Sector OZs in some way when making badge flights?
>
> >> TIA
> >> Jim
>
> > My 302/303 will indicate sector entry when a task is active. I
> > believe it's a feature of the 303 only, but can't be sure. Although
> > based on the documentation for the 303, it is not compatible with the
> > 302A. So you might be out of luck. You could contact the folks at
> > Cambridge to find out for sure.
>
> > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Paul,

See ZL's post a few messages up. The 303 gives a message when
entering the FAI photo sector when a task is active.