Jim Leroy went in today... [Archive]

Doug Semler

July 29th 07, 12:44 AM

On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." > wrote:
> Doug Semler wrote:
> > On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> >> ..Spun in down at Dayton.
>
> >> Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in the sky...
>
> >> Blue skies forever...
>
> > Big bummer.
>
> The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had
> never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the
> wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my
> favorite acro pilot. :(
>
> Anyone hear what happened?
>
> Gerald

The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...

http://www.journal-news.com/hp/content/oh/story/news/local/2007/07/28/ddn072807crashweb.html
has some "user" comments with (potentially) eyewitness acounts.

Viperdoc[_4_]

July 29th 07, 12:54 AM

I saw Jim LeRoy fly at OSH two years ago, and spoke with him briefly. Also
sent him some photos, and he responded with a gracious and personal message.
From an acro pilot perspective, he was one of the most precise in terms of
his flying ability, and this includes even the big headliners at OSH.

cavelamb himself[_2_]

July 29th 07, 01:31 AM

Viperdoc wrote:
> I saw Jim LeRoy fly at OSH two years ago, and spoke with him briefly. Also
> sent him some photos, and he responded with a gracious and personal message.
> From an acro pilot perspective, he was one of the most precise in terms of
> his flying ability, and this includes even the big headliners at OSH.
>
>

Aviation is an activity where you can't make the same mistake - once.

Richard

Kyle Boatright

July 29th 07, 02:11 AM

"Doug Semler" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." > wrote:
>> Doug Semler wrote:
>> > On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
>> >> ..Spun in down at Dayton.
>>
>> >> Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in the
>> >> sky...
>>
>> >> Blue skies forever...
>>
>> > Big bummer.
>>
>> The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had
>> never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the
>> wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my
>> favorite acro pilot. :(
>>
>> Anyone hear what happened?
>>
>> Gerald
>
> The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
> during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...

Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
*that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part of
the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight
lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.

A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes, would
have saved quite a few great pilots over the years.

KB

Orval Fairbairn

July 29th 07, 03:42 AM

In article >,
"Kyle Boatright" > wrote:

> "Doug Semler" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." > wrote:
> >> Doug Semler wrote:
> >> > On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> >> >> ..Spun in down at Dayton.
> >>
> >> >> Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in the
> >> >> sky...
> >>
> >> >> Blue skies forever...
> >>
> >> > Big bummer.
> >>
> >> The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had
> >> never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the
> >> wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my
> >> favorite acro pilot. :(
> >>
> >> Anyone hear what happened?
> >>
> >> Gerald
> >
> > The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
> > during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...
>
> Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
> altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
> *that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part of
> the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight
> lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.
>
> A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes, would
> have saved quite a few great pilots over the years.
>
> KB

We used to have a similar rule for performers at Watsonville. Too low
and the audience can't see it -- and the danger increases exponentially
the lower it is.

Bill Daniels

July 29th 07, 05:10 AM

Peter Dohm

July 29th 07, 02:09 PM

> >>
> >> The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
> >> during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...
> >
> > Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
> > altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
> > *that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part
> > of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the
sight
> > lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.
> >
> > A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes,
> > would have saved quite a few great pilots over the years.
> >
> > KB
> >
> Agreed!
>
> I've seen a couple of fatal air show crashes. It spoiled it for me so I
> just don't go any more. I like pilots and airplanes too much to risk
seeing
> them crash.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
Fortunately, there was never an accident of any type at any of the air shows
which I attended.

However, I did quit flagging road races for that reason.

Peter

Mark G.

July 29th 07, 04:41 PM

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote:
>>
>> The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
>> during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...
>
> Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
> altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
> *that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part
> of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight
> lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.

It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw"
is
intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the
envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
non-flying
public?

I also think that aviation is ill-served by such risk-taking. Every accident
offers another opportunity for a grandstanding politician to call for new
restrictions on our privileges.

-Mark

john smith[_2_]

July 29th 07, 05:01 PM

In article >,
"Mark G." > wrote:

> It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
> or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw"
> is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push
> the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
> non-flying public?

The ACES program is a failure when it comes to experienced performers.
While it has probably saved many lives of those new to airshow
performing, the more experience performers seem to have forgotten the
lessons they have been teaching while actings as instructors.
When the program was implemented in the 1980's as a partnership between
the FAA and the airshow industry (ie - ICAS), it was originally a very
rigid cirriculum which dealt with aircraft performance under a wide
range of conditions. This was heavily diluted during the comment period.
Now may be the time for the FAA to take the program back.
ICAS certainly hasn't shown any initiative in improving the safety
record of the more experience performers.

Andrew Sarangan

July 29th 07, 05:32 PM

I was just walking through the gates when this accident happened. One
moment two airplanes were flying around, and the next moment there was
black smoke. The airplane descended below my viewing angle.People
standing right by the runway saw the whole thing. It makes me wonder
if it is really necessary to get down that low just for the benefit of
the spectators standing by the runway perimeter. The majority of
people standing at a distance won't see anything at such low
altitudes.

But there is a video on youtube that made me curious. It shows the
aircraft spinning downwards, then at the moment when it should be
pulling up, it enters a cloud of smoke. Is it possible that he flew
into something that obscured his visibility and he was unable to tell
his altitude?

On Jul 29, 12:01 pm, john smith > wrote:
> In article >,
> "Mark G." > wrote:
>
> > It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
> > or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this "draw"
> > is intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push
> > the envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
> > non-flying public?
>
> The ACES program is a failure when it comes to experienced performers.
> While it has probably saved many lives of those new to airshow
> performing, the more experience performers seem to have forgotten the
> lessons they have been teaching while actings as instructors.
> When the program was implemented in the 1980's as a partnership between
> the FAA and the airshow industry (ie - ICAS), it was originally a very
> rigid cirriculum which dealt with aircraft performance under a wide
> range of conditions. This was heavily diluted during the comment period.
> Now may be the time for the FAA to take the program back.
> ICAS certainly hasn't shown any initiative in improving the safety
> record of the more experience performers.

Jon Woellhaf

July 29th 07, 06:00 PM

I am an "actual pilot" and I do not enjoy watching low level aerobatics --
so I don't.

"Mark G." > wrote in message
...
>
> It makes me cringe to see airshow performers flying 50' above the deck,
> or 25', or whatever limits they are pushing. I often wonder who this
> "draw" is
> intended for? Do actual pilots enjoy watching their fellow airmen push the
> envelope like this? Or is this intended to hold the interest of the
> non-flying
> public?
>
> I also think that aviation is ill-served by such risk-taking. Every
> accident
> offers another opportunity for a grandstanding politician to call for new
> restrictions on our privileges.
>
> -Mark

Jim+Peggy

July 29th 07, 06:56 PM

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Doug Semler" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." > wrote:
>>> Doug Semler wrote:
>>> > On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
>>> >> ..Spun in down at Dayton.
>>>
>>> >> Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in the
>>> >> sky...
>>>
>>> >> Blue skies forever...
>>>
>>> > Big bummer.
>>>
>>> The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had
>>> never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the
>>> wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my
>>> favorite acro pilot. :(
>>>
>>> Anyone hear what happened?
>>>
>>> Gerald
>>
>> The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
>> during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...
>
> Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
> altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
> *that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part
> of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the sight
> lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.
>
> A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes,
> would have saved quite a few great pilots over the years.
>
> KB
>
>
>
I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits "
here.
Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the fact
that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay, you
have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive.
That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
what they go to a show to see.
If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.
I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish
that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could
still be alive.
Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the
language) Balls to the Wall flying we see .
Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe
Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow.
Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I
usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me).

Peter Dohm

July 29th 07, 08:16 PM

> I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits
"
> here.
> Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the
fact
> that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay,
you
> have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive.
> That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
> what they go to a show to see.
> If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
> metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
> and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
> again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.
> I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish
> that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could
> still be alive.
> Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the
> language) Balls to the Wall flying we see .
> Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe
> Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow.
> Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I
> usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me).
>
>
>
No, it is not just you.

NASCAR annoys me for a because the cars, as currently furmulated, have
nothing to do with the models they are supposed to represent--other than
making some production models less practical in order to let the race cars
fit within the side profile rules. I do not watch that crap, and still
might not if they ran stock cars; but then, at least, I might consider it.

OTOH, the X-Games and a lot of the crazy stunts, illusions, and pyrotechnics
for TV and Movies create an apparent demand for ever creater spectacles.
However, there may still be a question as to whether that demand is real, in
order to please Joe Sixpack, or purely in the minds of the promoters.

Peter
Just my $0.02, and worth what you paid.

Don Tuite

July 29th 07, 08:28 PM

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:16:08 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
> wrote:

>> I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits
>"
>> here.
>> Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the
>fact
>> that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow pay,
>you
>> have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to survive.
>> That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
>> what they go to a show to see.
>> If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
>> metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
>> and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
>> again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.
>> I'm not saying that I think it is the way things should be, I too wish
>> that we could do things safe enough that several of my heros also could
>> still be alive.
>> Its just that I beleive that is what is behind all the (pardon the
>> language) Balls to the Wall flying we see .
>> Pilots trying to find one more trick to make a plane to dso to WOW! Joe
>> Sixpack so he will bring his family out to support the local airshow.
>> Remeber this is the generation whos favorite slogan is NO FEAR! ( I
>> usually add no brains either when I hear this but thats just me).
>>
>>
>>
>No, it is not just you.
>
>NASCAR annoys me for a because the cars, as currently furmulated, have
>nothing to do with the models they are supposed to represent--other than
>making some production models less practical in order to let the race cars
>fit within the side profile rules. I do not watch that crap, and still
>might not if they ran stock cars; but then, at least, I might consider it.
>
>OTOH, the X-Games and a lot of the crazy stunts, illusions, and pyrotechnics
>for TV and Movies create an apparent demand for ever creater spectacles.
>However, there may still be a question as to whether that demand is real, in
>order to please Joe Sixpack, or purely in the minds of the promoters.
>
Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?

Don

Dudley Henriques[_2_]

July 29th 07, 09:39 PM

Don Tuite wrote:

> Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?
>
> Don

It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des
Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver
Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this
subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The
book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety
and demonstration flying.
If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link
if you want a copy.
Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody
gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be
laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at
any air show.
Dudley Henriques

Peter Dohm

July 29th 07, 10:41 PM

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Don Tuite wrote:
>
> > Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?
> >
> > Don
>
> It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des
> Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver
> Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this
> subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The
> book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety
> and demonstration flying.
> If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link
> if you want a copy.
> Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody
> gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be
> laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at
> any air show.
> Dudley Henriques
>
By all means, Dudley, go ahead and post the link.

Peter

john hawkins

July 29th 07, 11:46 PM

alas amazon says

Availability: Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will
be back in stock.

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
[snip]
> If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link if
> you want a copy.
[snip]
> Dudley Henriques
>

Kyle Boatright

July 29th 07, 11:56 PM

"Jim+Peggy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Doug Semler" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> On Jul 28, 7:39 pm, "Gerald S." > wrote:
>>>> Doug Semler wrote:
>>>> > On Jul 28, 6:44 pm, "Blueskies" >
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >> ..Spun in down at Dayton.
>>>>
>>>> >> Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in
>>>> >> the sky...
>>>>
>>>> >> Blue skies forever...
>>>>
>>>> > Big bummer.
>>>>
>>>> The only time I saw him was in Salinas a year and a half ago. I had
>>>> never heard of him before and was thinking "This guy is balls to the
>>>> wall and beyond insane." After seeing more videos of him, he became my
>>>> favorite acro pilot. :(
>>>>
>>>> Anyone hear what happened?
>>>>
>>>> Gerald
>>>
>>> The story I saw makes it sound like he basically ran out of altitude
>>> during a pullout and pancaked to the ground...
>>
>> Which is why I wish they would institute a 200' (or whatever) minimum
>> altitude for airshow performers. First, I don't like seeing airplanes
>> *that* close to the ground. It makes me uneasy (which I realize is part
>> of the draw - but I still don't like it). Second, in many shows, the
>> sight lines are terrible for low, low, acts anyway.
>>
>> A higher minimum altitude, with corresponding higher entry altitudes,
>> would have saved quite a few great pilots over the years.
>>
>> KB
>>
>>
>>
> I'm just an enthusiast here not a full blown pilot but just my "two bits
> " here.
> Most organizers of airshows in this day and age are well aware of the
> fact that there are not enough pilots and enthusiasts to make an airshow
> pay, you have to engage the nonflying public too if your show is going to
> survive.
> That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
> what they go to a show to see.
> If they don't have at least a hint of the possibility of crumpled sheet
> metal they are going to stand there and watch all those pretty aerobatics
> and go home and say HO HUM that wasn't worth my admission fee , I won't go
> again and I will tell all my buddies don't bother.>

I really don't think anyone, even the lowest knuckle dragger wants to see
anyone get killed, which is a very common result of bent sheet metal in the
aviation world.

Beyond that, airshow performers killing themselves is detrimental to the
entire GA community. It reinforces the image that "those small planes crash
all the time", which is one among several important factors in keeping a lot
of people from being pilots.

Raise the altitude minimums to 100' and I don't think it will impact the
show quality by enough to notice.

KB

Kyle Boatright

July 30th 07, 12:00 AM

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
>
> I was at Osh in 92 when Jimmy Franklin fliew the Kitfox in the
> airshow. He'd done his routine in his black Waco and scared the
> audience with an inverted pull out at 5 feet or so. The story went
> around that Phil Reed - the then new owner of Skystar - told Jimmy
> he'd give Jimmy an extra $10 per foot of minimum altitude during his
> show. If he kept it above 100 feet, he'd make an extra $1000.
>
> He made an extra $30.

I saw that performance in the Kitfox and really, really enjoyed it. It was
very quiet due to the muffled Rotax. It was very graceful and smooth,
because that's the only way to fly an extended aerobatic sequence in a
draggy, low powered airplane.

I wish there were more acts like that and less noise/smoke/hardcore stuff.
I don't even pay attention to that stuff anymore at airshows. In fact,
those acts give me plenty of time to read through all the materials I picked
up earlier in the day at the vendor booths...

KB

B A R R Y

July 30th 07, 01:00 AM

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:56:13 -0500, "Jim+Peggy" >
wrote:

> That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
>what they go to a show to see.

FWIW, I've been to NASCAR Winston and Nextel Cup events that featured
aerobatics as an "opening act". Joe doesn't give a crap about
anything with a propeller. They don't even watch the routine.

Joe Sixpack likes jets.

Watch the non-pilots when the Iron Eagles or Patty Wagstaff fly, then
keep watching when a C-5 or FedEx Airbus does a straight and level low
pass, or especially when the military jet teams perform.

Joe is in the porta-potty or the beer tents while the Pitts, Extra,
Sukoi, and Cap models fly...

I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
it's got propellers. <G>

Peter Dohm

July 30th 07, 01:23 AM

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:56:13 -0500, "Jim+Peggy" >
> wrote:
>
> > That means Joe sixpack folks, the NASCAR fans and we all are well aware
> >what they go to a show to see.
>
> FWIW, I've been to NASCAR Winston and Nextel Cup events that featured
> aerobatics as an "opening act". Joe doesn't give a crap about
> anything with a propeller. They don't even watch the routine.
>
> Joe Sixpack likes jets.
>
> Watch the non-pilots when the Iron Eagles or Patty Wagstaff fly, then
> keep watching when a C-5 or FedEx Airbus does a straight and level low
> pass, or especially when the military jet teams perform.
>
> Joe is in the porta-potty or the beer tents while the Pitts, Extra,
> Sukoi, and Cap models fly...
>
> I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
> it's got propellers. <G>

Interesting. I din't think of that possibility, but it makes a sort of
sense.

Joe Sixpack may be an even smaller bit player than I supposed...

Peter

Blueskies

July 30th 07, 02:00 AM

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message ...

> Interesting. I din't think of that possibility, but it makes a sort of
> sense.
>
> Joe Sixpack may be an even smaller bit player than I supposed...
>
> Peter
>
>

The thing is that RC models do those "3D" routines where they hover and even lower the tail down to the ground, and then
do insane acceleration and rolling and turning. The latest generation of airshow pilot seems to want to mimic that sort
of performance. Pretty amazing to see a Pitts derivative plane break ground and go right in to climbing knife edge
flight. Just as amazing is seeing a Stearman breaking ground and then do a slow roll. I think these folks are doing the
show for the pilots in the crowd. Joe 6pack wants to see the heavy metal and shockwave truck...

Dudley Henriques[_2_]

July 30th 07, 02:59 AM

Pete;
Somebody just posted and said the book was unavailable at Amazon. I
haven't talked to Des recently and don't know if the book went into a
second printing.
What I can do is this; email me back channel using my email address here
on the group and I'll send you a review on the book done by Aeroplane
Monthly. The review has the address of the publisher. If you write to
the publisher, I'm sure they will send you a copy, but the postage from
SA might be a killer!! Anyway, the PDF file with the review and
information is yours if you want it.
Dudley Henriques

Peter Dohm wrote:
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Don Tuite wrote:
>>
>>> Joe Sixpack, the promoters, or the flyers' egos? Dudley?
>>>
>>> Don
>> It's an extremely complicated answer Don. A good friend of mine, Gen Des
>> Barker of the South African Air Force and ex member of the Silver
>> Falcons Jet Demonstration Team has written an entire book on just this
>> subject. I was pleased to have my own input included in this work. The
>> book is perhaps the most extensive volume ever written on airshow safety
>> and demonstration flying.
>> If interested, the book is "Zero Error Margin". I can dig you up a link
>> if you want a copy.
>> Other than that, the ultimate answer to this issue is that everybody
>> gets a piece of the responsibility. I don't believe the blame can be
>> laid on any one factor, as all factors are in play on any given day at
>> any air show.
>> Dudley Henriques
>>
> By all means, Dudley, go ahead and post the link.
>
> Peter
>
>

john smith[_2_]

July 30th 07, 03:15 AM

In article >,
"Blueskies" > wrote:

> Just as amazing is seeing a Stearman breaking ground and then do a slow roll.
> I think these folks are doing the
> show for the pilots in the crowd.

Bob Lycjk (sic) did that in his WACO several years ago and had the
engine quit half way around. Everyone heard it. Bob, being the old pro
that he is, continued the roll, landed and shut down. It was interesting
listening to the conversation on show control when it happened.

Gattman[_2_]

July 30th 07, 09:56 PM

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...

> I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
> it's got propellers.

Joe likes rocket-powered Freightliner dragsters and Cessna-chomping
Truckasaurii much more than an actual airshow.

The last time I went to an airshow to volunteer with and help keep an eye on
the Tillamook P-38, the show planners had it tucked away behind opaque
plastic next to the WWI-era biplanes. The public had NO idea that any of
that was there except you could just see the tips of the props sticking up
over the barrier.

From the '38 you couldn't see the airshow because of the giant inflatable
beer can or SUV or whatever it was, but it worked out for me because I got
to talk with a 10th Mountain Division WWII vet, cruise around in WWII flight
suit on the hood of a '43 jeep, get a private all-access tour to a
fully-restored B-25, and meet Bob Hoover... ...so maybe I shouldn't
complain. But then again, I was a volunteer so I didn't have to pay to get
in, otherwise I'd have been pretty upset. They had -all- the old warbirds
parked behind a cyclone fence, though, so the public couldn't get closer
than about 20' and you could only see the front of the airplanes.
(Hillsboro, Oregon)

-c

wright1902glider

July 30th 07, 11:30 PM

On Jul 30, 2:56 pm, "Gattman" > wrote:
> "B A R R Y" > wrote in messagenews:93aqa3t99ko1i7tcul5rhj73o5365esnut@4ax .com...
>
> > I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
> > it's got propellers.
>
> Joe likes rocket-powered Freightliner dragsters and Cessna-chomping
> Truckasaurii much more than an actual airshow.

Hard to believe that Jim went in. Just as it was with Bobby. When I
was first getting started in 2003, I pulled a lot of info from the
Bulldog website. Things like show schedules and contacts, a basic
performer contract, lots of little things that don't matter unless
you're trying to break into the industry and aren't a member of ICAS
yet. I performed at at least one show that he flew and he had an
amazing performance. But IMHO, airshow pilots try to add something new
each year. Outdo the otherguy, go one step farther, maybe just a
little lower, etc. Before long, 2nd order factors become primary order
factors. Things most folks don't understand like altitude density and
humidity creep in and kill people.

In my experience, airshow organizers are looking for the most draw for
their dollar. And general public draw usually equates to "spectacular"
or "bad-ass". "Joe Sixpack" is expecting to see certain things at an
airshow and they are, in order of importance: speed, sound, size,
spins, & smoke. Your show WILL need a jet team, 2 to 5 large military
statics, at least 1 high-power and one low-power solo aerobatic act,
one gimic act such as Robo-sarus or Shockwave, and all the warbirds
you can muster. Everything else, and that includes my plane, is
filler. So goes it with the large shows.

However, many of the smaller shows without huge budgets are willing to
take a change on a non-traditional act. And its at the smaller shows
that I've seen some really interesting flying. It also illustrates an
often-missed point. That mixed in with Joe Sixpack are a lot of
educated folks, many with kids, that come to see the planes, not just
the show. And sometimes they stop for 15 minutes and listen to some
guy in a funny hat talk about a small white plane with no motor that
can barely fly. They take photos, ask questions, and maybe understand
just a little bit more.

Godspeed Jim.

S. D. Harry Frey
Wright Brothers Enterprises

Dudley Henriques[_2_]

July 31st 07, 12:14 AM

Good post.
It's hard to explain to people outside the community what actually goes
on inside an air show.
I remember one night in Elkton Maryland in 1973 having dinner with
Scotty McCray. I had spent the day working with him just a bit
critiquing his rolls in the Decathlon. This was the week just before he
left to go down to Sao Paulo in Brazil to demonstrate it.
We lost Scotty that week down in South America. One of the finest air
show pilots I have ever known as well as one of the nicest people to be
around.
Scotty of course was an absolute master of unpowered flight. He always
felt that bringing the glider and music together into the demonstration
venue was bringing a little of the beauty we as pilots all knew and
allowing the general public to share it with us.
Dudley Henriques

wright1902glider wrote:
> On Jul 30, 2:56 pm, "Gattman" > wrote:
>> "B A R R Y" > wrote in messagenews:93aqa3t99ko1i7tcul5rhj73o5365esnut@4ax .com...
>>
>>> I contradict myself.. Joe MIGHT watch a C-130 fly over, even though
>>> it's got propellers.
>> Joe likes rocket-powered Freightliner dragsters and Cessna-chomping
>> Truckasaurii much more than an actual airshow.
>
>
> Hard to believe that Jim went in. Just as it was with Bobby. When I
> was first getting started in 2003, I pulled a lot of info from the
> Bulldog website. Things like show schedules and contacts, a basic
> performer contract, lots of little things that don't matter unless
> you're trying to break into the industry and aren't a member of ICAS
> yet. I performed at at least one show that he flew and he had an
> amazing performance. But IMHO, airshow pilots try to add something new
> each year. Outdo the otherguy, go one step farther, maybe just a
> little lower, etc. Before long, 2nd order factors become primary order
> factors. Things most folks don't understand like altitude density and
> humidity creep in and kill people.
>
> In my experience, airshow organizers are looking for the most draw for
> their dollar. And general public draw usually equates to "spectacular"
> or "bad-ass". "Joe Sixpack" is expecting to see certain things at an
> airshow and they are, in order of importance: speed, sound, size,
> spins, & smoke. Your show WILL need a jet team, 2 to 5 large military
> statics, at least 1 high-power and one low-power solo aerobatic act,
> one gimic act such as Robo-sarus or Shockwave, and all the warbirds
> you can muster. Everything else, and that includes my plane, is
> filler. So goes it with the large shows.
>
> However, many of the smaller shows without huge budgets are willing to
> take a change on a non-traditional act. And its at the smaller shows
> that I've seen some really interesting flying. It also illustrates an
> often-missed point. That mixed in with Joe Sixpack are a lot of
> educated folks, many with kids, that come to see the planes, not just
> the show. And sometimes they stop for 15 minutes and listen to some
> guy in a funny hat talk about a small white plane with no motor that
> can barely fly. They take photos, ask questions, and maybe understand
> just a little bit more.
>
> Godspeed Jim.
>
> S. D. Harry Frey
> Wright Brothers Enterprises
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

July 31st 07, 06:19 PM

On Jul 29, 1:16 pm, Richard Riley > wrote:
> I was at Osh in 92 when Jimmy Franklin fliew the Kitfox in the
> airshow. He'd done his routine in his black Waco and scared the
> audience with an inverted pull out at 5 feet or so.

My stomach would churn watching Jimmy pull the WACO out so low that he
would disappear in the low ground behind runway 18/36. Exciting to
watch, but frightening, too.

Charlie

[email protected]

July 31st 07, 07:14 PM

On Jul 28, 4:44 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> ..Spun in down at Dayton.
>
> Now all the masters of disaster have gone to the great airshow in the sky...
>
> Blue skies forever...

Seeing the TV videos, I wonder what went wrong. It was a spin but
didn't look
flat. Bill Hale

Ernest Christley

August 2nd 07, 03:44 AM

Kyle Boatright wrote:

> I really don't think anyone, even the lowest knuckle dragger wants to see
> anyone get killed, which is a very common result of bent sheet metal in the
> aviation world.
>

Nope. The knuckle draggers want to see someone knock on the door of
death and deftly sidestep at the last split second as the beast comes
roaring out. The only proof that death actually comes roaring out is
for the occasional performer to not be quite deft enough. If no one
ever dies, then it gets stale like a carnival ride.

Remember, the job of the carnival ride designer is to make you think
you're going to die while keeping you securely nestled.