Great Contest Location

[Hal[_2_]]

If you are an experienced contest pilot or just considering entering
your first contest check out the SSA website contest results and
photos (http://www.ssa.org/members/contestreports/contestresults.asp)
of this year's event at Air Sailing. This year we experienced
soaring
conditions with speeds and distances exceeding those in
the National Contest in Hobbs. Including the practice day on
Sunday we flew six out of the seven days with only one landout.

The dates of the contest have not been set for next year, but if you
are interested keep an eye on Air Sailing Web site (http://
www.airsailing.org) for announcements. Depending on your experience
levels or interest Air Sailing also has annual camps for thermaling
and Cross Country.


If you are interested in attending next year and want more
information
send me a note (reply to author) and I will contact you.

[John Sinclair]

Congratulations on winning the contest Hal, good show!
Air Sailing is, in deed, a great place to fly. Next
year region 11 will be hosting the sports nationals
at Montague (1-10 July) and I believe Parowan regionals
will be 15-21 June, so later in July would be a good
time for the annual Air Sailing (all sports) regional
contest.
Good-on-you,
JJ

At 12:42 30 July 2007, Hal wrote:
>If you are an experienced contest pilot or just considering
>entering
>your first contest check out the SSA website contest
>results and
>photos (http://www.ssa.org/members/contestreports/contestresults.a
>>sp)
>of this year's event at Air Sailing. This year we
>experienced
>soaring
>conditions with speeds and distances exceeding those
>in
>the National Contest in Hobbs. Including the practice
>day on
>Sunday we flew six out of the seven days with only
>one landout.
>
>The dates of the contest have not been set for next
>year, but if you
>are interested keep an eye on Air Sailing Web site
>(http://
>www.airsailing.org) for announcements. Depending on
>your experience
>levels or interest Air Sailing also has annual camps
>for thermaling
>and Cross Country.
>
>
>If you are interested in attending next year and want
>more
>information
>send me a note (reply to author) and I will contact
>you.
>
>

[Tuno]

<and I believe Parowan regionals will be 15-21 June>

Is this firm?

Last month the Parowan city council announced they will lengthen the
runway by 1500 feet. Is there a timetable for that?

Love flying at Parowan -- hate flying dry!

2NO

[John Sinclair]

Montague's firm and I believe Parowan is too. Don't
expect the runway to be extended right away. Three
years is lightning speed for projects like that.
JJ

At 17:18 30 July 2007, Tuno wrote:
>
>
>Is this firm?
>
>Last month the Parowan city council announced they
>will lengthen the
>runway by 1500 feet. Is there a timetable for that?
>
>Love flying at Parowan -- hate flying dry!
>
>2NO
>
>

[Rick Culbertson]

"Love flying at Parowan -- hate flying dry! 2NO"

Yep, Parowan is a great racing site no doubt about it! As for no
H20...never thought I would say this but I'm learning to enjoy stuff
flying around the cockpit, how else are some of us old (heavy winged)
asw20b drivers going to ever get a leg up on the newer (light weight)
130k super ships ;-)

JJ, who do we have to thank for getting the Regional ball rolling at
Parowan in 08?

21

[Andy Blackburn]

At 20:42 30 July 2007, Rick Culbertson wrote:
>
>'Love flying at Parowan -- hate flying dry! 2NO'
>
>Yep, Parowan is a great racing site no doubt about
>it! As for no
>H20...never thought I would say this but I'm learning
>to enjoy stuff
>flying around the cockpit, how else are some of us
>old (heavy winged)
>asw20b drivers going to ever get a leg up on the newer
>(light weight)
>130k super ships ;-)
>
>JJ, who do we have to thank for getting the Regional
>ball rolling at
>Parowan in 08?
>
>21
>

I spoke with Dave Norwood at Parowan Aero Services.
He didn't think there was any money to extend the runway
and he's not holding his breath that it will happen
any time soon. Maybe the Parowan city elders know something
Dave doesn't -- or not.

Also, where does JJ find out about dates for 2008 contests?
Would be great to have the early info for planning
purposes.

9B

[Karl Striedieck]

Micki and Charlie Minner have agreed to organize the 2008 Parowan regional.
They have not set firm dates yet.

Karl Striedieck


"Andy Blackburn" > wrote in message
...
> At 20:42 30 July 2007, Rick Culbertson wrote:
>>
>>'Love flying at Parowan -- hate flying dry! 2NO'
>>
>>Yep, Parowan is a great racing site no doubt about
>>it! As for no
>>H20...never thought I would say this but I'm learning
>>to enjoy stuff
>>flying around the cockpit, how else are some of us
>>old (heavy winged)
>>asw20b drivers going to ever get a leg up on the newer
>>(light weight)
>>130k super ships ;-)
>>
>>JJ, who do we have to thank for getting the Regional
>>ball rolling at
>>Parowan in 08?
>>
>>21
>>
>
> I spoke with Dave Norwood at Parowan Aero Services.
> He didn't think there was any money to extend the runway
> and he's not holding his breath that it will happen
> any time soon. Maybe the Parowan city elders know something
> Dave doesn't -- or not.
>
> Also, where does JJ find out about dates for 2008 contests?
> Would be great to have the early info for planning
> purposes.
>
> 9B
>
>
>

[John Sinclair]

>JJ, who do we have to thank for getting the Regional
>ball rolling at
>Parowan in 08?
>
>21

Charlie & Micki had previously agreed to manage and
CD the sports nats at Montague, but Williams Soaring
asked to run the show at Montague with Rex CDing and
Noelle managing. I went with the Williams bid because
they expressed a desire to host regionals and nats
there in the future and I thought it important to keep
this site alive. I'm afraid I did a ****-poor job of
notifing Charlie & Micki of the change. Sorry, guys
we need (really need) people like you to keep US racing
going.

After my above bungling, KS & I asked Charlie & Micki
if they would be interested in managing and CDing another
regionals at Parowan and they agreed. I also think
its important to keep Parowan alive and with the eventual
lengthing of the runway we could bid FAI classes there.

Please don't ask how I came to be in a position to
be deciding these things, its a long ugly story.
JJ

[Papa3]

On Jul 30, 10:36 pm, John Sinclair
> wrote:
>
> Please don't ask how I came to be in a position to
> be deciding these things, its a long ugly story.
> JJ

That'll teach you not to complain ... :-o

P3

[[email protected]]

On Jul 31, 1:51 am, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Jul 30, 10:36 pm, John Sinclair
>
> > wrote:
>
> > Please don't ask how I came to be in a position to
> > be deciding these things, its a long ugly story.
> > JJ
>
> That'll teach you not to complain ... :-o
>
> P3

when you say regionals at Parowan are you meaning region 9? I'm
assuming so and the SSA had mentioned the region 9 might be there
again next year.

Bob

[John Sinclair]

>when you say regionals at Parowan are you meaning region
>9? I'm
>assuming so and the SSA had mentioned the region 9
>might be there
>again next year.
>
>Bob


I'm tempted to say region 11 (east), remembering Kilo
Sierra's April fool joke from the first Parowan regionals,
when he declared it to be region 2 (west) and published
a new entry list showing all the region 9 guys on the
bottom!
Yes it will be region 9 (north),
JJ

[Rick Culbertson]

JJ,
Thanks for the info. The KS April Fools in 2004 was a memorable
classic!
All kidding aside, I don't see any reason why Parowan couldn't be used
for more than one regional contest a year if the desire to do so is
strong enough. I would suspect the AP managers and the town of Parowan
would welcome the idea. Do the rules allow a regional to be held
outside of its physical boundaries?
21

> I'm tempted to say region 11 (east), remembering Kilo
> Sierra's April fool joke from the first Parowan regionals,
> when he declared it to be region 2 (west) and published
> a new entry list showing all the region 9 guys on the
> bottom!
> Yes it will be region 9 (north),
> JJ

[Tuno]

Yes, they do. Some TuSC members (the ones with rASAing stripes) talked
about hosting Region 12 at El Tiro next year.

That, too, is a great place to have a contest!

El Tuno Gringo

[g l i d e r s t u d]

ET Gringo

Why is ASA hosting a regional contest they don't belong to, in a
region outside of the region they are trying to host?

But thats ok i guess, less work for me. No engraved beer mug trophy
for you.

[Tuno]

GS:

> Why is ASA hosting a regional contest they don't belong to, in a
> region outside of the region they are trying to host?

They're not :)

Some of us were talking about doing it -- if no one in Region 12 did.
(Note that Region 9 had two contests this year, Region 12 el zippo.)

2NO

[John Sinclair]

Do the rules allow a regional to be held
>outside of its physical boundaries?

It has been done, region 12 held several regionals
at Bishop, CA which is located in region 11 territory
so there's president. One thing I don't understand
is the Phoenix guys don't support Parowan and I don't
understand why? If I had to decide between Hobbs and
Parowan, I know which one I'd choose.
JJ

[Tuno]

JJ, what on earth makes you feel that the Phoenix guys don't support
Parowan?? You could not be more mistaken on that one!

Of course, getting my crew to come back is a whole nuther story ...

2NO

[Tim Taylor]

On Aug 1, 3:59 pm, Rick Culbertson > wrote:
> JJ,
> Thanks for the info. The KS April Fools in 2004 was a memorable
> classic!
> All kidding aside, I don't see any reason why Parowan couldn't be used
> for more than one regional contest a year if the desire to do so is
> strong enough. I would suspect the AP managers and the town of Parowan
> would welcome the idea. Do the rules allow a regional to be held
> outside of its physical boundaries?
> 21
>

Rick,

Here is the one we wrote, but didn't release this year on April 1st.

April 1, 2007

Region 2 Far West Contest Parowan Utah

The Prophet Karl along with Brother Spratt of the Later Day Soaring
(LDS) Church have had a revelation that there should be held a soaring
contest in Parowan Utah in 2007. The LDS Church founded in Palmyra NY
by Joseph Smith in the 1820's not far from Elmira NY, one of the
holiest sites to the current members. Brother Smith moved the church
several times before settling in Far West, Missouri where he believed
the Garden of Eden had been. After early percussion for believing
that man could become a god and therefore fly the church was forced
move to Illinois where the first Prophet was martyred and Brigham
Young became the second Prophet of the LDS Church. It was revealed to
Brother Young that the soaring was so bad in the Midwest and East that
the LDS Church should move west again in search of a true Zion where
the weather was better for soaring. In 1847 Brigham Young on coming to
Utah exclaimed, "This is the place". His power of prophecy has been
reviled as true as the future state of Utah and surrounding areas that
he called Desserett are home to some of the best soaring in the world.

This brings us to the current revelation. It appear after numerous
discussions with the directors, commercial operators, clubs and pilots
in Region 9 that it was decided that it was best if the Region 2
congregation preemptively apply to hold a contest in Utah before any
of those pesky natives might get to thinking they might want to run
one in their own region. Prophet Karl proclaimed that only those of
us from east of the big river are the true Later Day Soarers, those
from the west side of the county are just gentiles and heathens and
would not know how to run a contest. Look at all the trouble they had
last year in Arizona when they tried to work with the Air Force.

We don't need local support we can bring our brethren from region 2
out by handcart to run the whole thing. Just because the Region 9 was
going to hold a contest in New Mexico or some other spot this year is
their problem. The old saying is true "You snooze you loose". If the
locals get in the way too much we can take them out to Mountain Meadow
for a little one-way field trip.

The Prophet will bring his venerable Schweizer 2-32 to the contest so
that he can take several of his wives up at a time to fly with him.
He has been known to land at Colorado City and pick up one or two
(three if they are small enough) new ones while flying in Utah. With
Warren Jeff's locked away in jail in Saint George, there is a
potential opening to become the Prophet of the FLDS Church as well.

[Cliff Hilty]

Well written Tim, best laugh Ive' had this week!

At 02:18 02 August 2007, Tim Taylor wrote:
>On Aug 1, 3:59 pm, Rick Culbertson wrote:
>> JJ,
>> Thanks for the info. The KS April Fools in 2004 was
>>a memorable
>> classic!
>> All kidding aside, I don't see any reason why Parowan
>>couldn't be used
>> for more than one regional contest a year if the desire
>>to do so is
>> strong enough. I would suspect the AP managers and
>>the town of Parowan
>> would welcome the idea. Do the rules allow a regional
>>to be held
>> outside of its physical boundaries?
>> 21
>>
>
>Rick,
>
>Here is the one we wrote, but didn't release this year
>on April 1st.
>
>April 1, 2007
>
>Region 2 Far West Contest Parowan Utah
>
>The Prophet Karl along with Brother Spratt of the Later
>Day Soaring
>(LDS) Church have had a revelation that there should
>be held a soaring
>contest in Parowan Utah in 2007. The LDS Church founded
>in Palmyra NY
>by Joseph Smith in the 1820's not far from Elmira NY,
>one of the
>holiest sites to the current members. Brother Smith
>moved the church
>several times before settling in Far West, Missouri
>where he believed
>the Garden of Eden had been. After early percussion
>for believing
>that man could become a god and therefore fly the church
>was forced
>move to Illinois where the first Prophet was martyred
>and Brigham
>Young became the second Prophet of the LDS Church.
> It was revealed to
>Brother Young that the soaring was so bad in the Midwest
>and East that
>the LDS Church should move west again in search of
>a true Zion where
>the weather was better for soaring. In 1847 Brigham
>Young on coming to
>Utah exclaimed, 'This is the place'. His power of
>prophecy has been
>reviled as true as the future state of Utah and surrounding
>areas that
>he called Desserett are home to some of the best soaring
>in the world.
>
>This brings us to the current revelation. It appear
>after numerous
>discussions with the directors, commercial operators,
>clubs and pilots
>in Region 9 that it was decided that it was best if
>the Region 2
>congregation preemptively apply to hold a contest in
>Utah before any
>of those pesky natives might get to thinking they might
>want to run
>one in their own region. Prophet Karl proclaimed that
>only those of
>us from east of the big river are the true Later Day
>Soarers, those
>from the west side of the county are just gentiles
>and heathens and
>would not know how to run a contest. Look at all the
>trouble they had
>last year in Arizona when they tried to work with the
>Air Force.
>
>We don't need local support we can bring our brethren
>from region 2
>out by handcart to run the whole thing. Just because
>the Region 9 was
>going to hold a contest in New Mexico or some other
>spot this year is
>their problem. The old saying is true 'You snooze
>you loose'. If the
>locals get in the way too much we can take them out
>to Mountain Meadow
>for a little one-way field trip.
>
>The Prophet will bring his venerable Schweizer 2-32
>to the contest so
>that he can take several of his wives up at a time
>to fly with him.
>He has been known to land at Colorado City and pick
>up one or two
>(three if they are small enough) new ones while flying
>in Utah. With
>Warren Jeff's locked away in jail in Saint George,
>there is a
>potential opening to become the Prophet of the FLDS
>Church as well.
>
>
>

[John Sinclair]

At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
>JJ, what on earth makes you feel that the Phoenix guys
>don't support

Just my impression, I guess. How many Phoenix guys
were there this year?

One thing for sure, the place is wildly popular due
to fantastic soaring and because its 1 days drive (long
days drive) from some 10 western states. Wish it was
easier to get into, though. I was 68th on a list fighting
over 50 entry slots. Micki called me just before it
started. Not many folks can drop everything and head
for Utah on a phone call. Don't know what could be
done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
JJ

[MickiMinner]

>
> Here is the one we wrote, but didn't release this year on April 1st.
>
> April 1, 2007
>
> Region 2 Far West Contest Parowan Utah
>
> The Prophet Karl along with Brother Spratt of the Later Day Soaring
> (LDS) Church

I always knew there was a "church" of later day soaring...why else
would I have had Brother Spratt conduct my marriage ceremony on the
runway filled with gliders in the Far EAST Region 2 gliderport? The
prophet Karl was the one who came up with the idea of the pulpit being
the 57 chevy used for "auto-tows"....See....more and more there is
proof of the prophecies of the Later Day Soaring Church and knowing
the True way to heaven!
Micki Minner

[Tuno]

> Just my impression, I guess.

I get that, but based on what? The ASA guys, myself included, have had
nothing but glowing things to say about the Promised Land of Latter
Day Soaring.

> How many Phoenix guys were there this year?

Nearly a quarter of the field!

rASArs at Parowan this year: TS1, N7, 2NO, 1X, CH, GY, WA, MM, 71,
OD2, 9B, and Justin Rizor (flying with KS). There was one more but his
glider b0rke two weeks before the contest.

2NO
(who will always come back, ballasted contest or no)

[Rick Culbertson]

JJ & all,

Good point, I'm certain every contest could use the extra $, in
Parowans case $1,800.00 for last min. drop outs. #18 is surprising
last minute dropout # for such a popular contest or maybe because of
it but I was pleased to see it allowed some fine pilots outside R-9 to
"officially" enter the contest.

Forgive me for the rant but speaking only for myself, I'm not a big
fan of tweaking the rules on a whim but I would fully support
extending the non-refundable period to say at least 4 months prior to
the contest start date and just make the rules state the deposit of
$100.00 is 100% non-refundable after 120 days prior to the contest. In
an oversubscribed contest this should weed out the majority of the 6
month long fence sitters who had nothing to loose but were always in
doubt. This should still allow the CM ample time for final
preparations and has the added benefit of removing the somewhat
emotional decision by the CM to keep the deposit and just make it
mandatory per the rules. I would be surprised if any past and current
CMs would be unhappy with this rule change.

Legitimate reasons for dropping out at the last minute will still
occur; family, health, work obligations, financial, etc. that's just a
given. I suspect even with the substantial sums of $ we all gleefully
invest in this sport, be it 10k or 200k a fair amount of pressure is
tossed at the CM by the last minute pilot dropping out to return the
deposit monies. I'd like to see the $ go to the organizers who put on
the contests, take on the risks and rarely make any real money doing
so, in fact they more often than not dig into ones own pockets to
complete the show. You don't see professional Sailplane Contest
organizers advertising in the yellow pages let alone in the SSA mag?
Contest pilots are not a bottomless pit for cash but we can all afford
to donate $100 to a good cause, that's about 3% or less of the average
pilots cash cost to attend a 7 day contest.

I'd be curious to hear from other contest pilots & managers etc on
this subject, be nice.

Rick - 21



On Aug 2, 8:26 am, John Sinclair
> wrote:
> At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
> Don't know what could be
> done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
> some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
> be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
> JJ

[Hal[_2_]]

On Aug 2, 12:36 pm, Rick Culbertson > wrote:
> JJ & all,
>
> Good point, I'm certain every contest could use the extra $, in
> Parowans case $1,800.00 for last min. drop outs. #18 is surprising
> last minute dropout # for such a popular contest or maybe because of
> it but I was pleased to see it allowed some fine pilots outside R-9 to
> "officially" enter the contest.
>
> Forgive me for the rant but speaking only for myself, I'm not a big
> fan of tweaking the rules on a whim but I would fully support
> extending the non-refundable period to say at least 4 months prior to
> the contest start date and just make the rules state the deposit of
> $100.00 is 100% non-refundable after 120 days prior to the contest. In
> an oversubscribed contest this should weed out the majority of the 6
> month long fence sitters who had nothing to loose but were always in
> doubt. This should still allow the CM ample time for final
> preparations and has the added benefit of removing the somewhat
> emotional decision by the CM to keep the deposit and just make it
> mandatory per the rules. I would be surprised if any past and current
> CMs would be unhappy with this rule change.
>
> Legitimate reasons for dropping out at the last minute will still
> occur; family, health, work obligations, financial, etc. that's just a
> given. I suspect even with the substantial sums of $ we all gleefully
> invest in this sport, be it 10k or 200k a fair amount of pressure is
> tossed at the CM by the last minute pilot dropping out to return the
> deposit monies. I'd like to see the $ go to the organizers who put on
> the contests, take on the risks and rarely make any real money doing
> so, in fact they more often than not dig into ones own pockets to
> complete the show. You don't see professional Sailplane Contest
> organizers advertising in the yellow pages let alone in the SSA mag?
> Contest pilots are not a bottomless pit for cash but we can all afford
> to donate $100 to a good cause, that's about 3% or less of the average
> pilots cash cost to attend a 7 day contest.
>
> I'd be curious to hear from other contest pilots & managers etc on
> this subject, be nice.
>
> Rick - 21
>
> On Aug 2, 8:26 am, John Sinclair
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
> > Don't know what could be
> > done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
> > some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
> > be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
> > JJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree increase the deposit and the cancellation period. I was
called about 12 hours before I would have to hook up the glider and
start diriving. I informed the contest personel about 1 month before
that I had to make other plans as I could not count on going. They
never answered and kept me on the list. Some people work for a living
and have to schedule vacations!

[5Z]

On Aug 2, 6:42 pm, Hal > wrote:
> Some people work for a living and have to schedule vacations!

And some people have to schedule vacations 6-10 months in advance.
Luckily, my wife now has a more flexible job, but still needs a few
months to make sure someone else hasn't taken the particular dates
first.

-Tom

[Ray Gimmey]

I was also on the waiting list but canceled a
couple weeks before the contest started.

It would be interesting to know how many canceled
that had a entry number 50 or below.
Ray
Hal wrote:
> On Aug 2, 12:36 pm, Rick Culbertson > wrote:
>
>>JJ & all,
>>
>>Good point, I'm certain every contest could use the extra $, in
>>Parowans case $1,800.00 for last min. drop outs. #18 is surprising
>>last minute dropout # for such a popular contest or maybe because of
>>it but I was pleased to see it allowed some fine pilots outside R-9 to
>>"officially" enter the contest.
>>
>>Forgive me for the rant but speaking only for myself, I'm not a big
>>fan of tweaking the rules on a whim but I would fully support
>>extending the non-refundable period to say at least 4 months prior to
>>the contest start date and just make the rules state the deposit of
>>$100.00 is 100% non-refundable after 120 days prior to the contest. In
>>an oversubscribed contest this should weed out the majority of the 6
>>month long fence sitters who had nothing to loose but were always in
>>doubt. This should still allow the CM ample time for final
>>preparations and has the added benefit of removing the somewhat
>>emotional decision by the CM to keep the deposit and just make it
>>mandatory per the rules. I would be surprised if any past and current
>>CMs would be unhappy with this rule change.
>>
>>Legitimate reasons for dropping out at the last minute will still
>>occur; family, health, work obligations, financial, etc. that's just a
>>given. I suspect even with the substantial sums of $ we all gleefully
>>invest in this sport, be it 10k or 200k a fair amount of pressure is
>>tossed at the CM by the last minute pilot dropping out to return the
>>deposit monies. I'd like to see the $ go to the organizers who put on
>>the contests, take on the risks and rarely make any real money doing
>>so, in fact they more often than not dig into ones own pockets to
>>complete the show. You don't see professional Sailplane Contest
>>organizers advertising in the yellow pages let alone in the SSA mag?
>>Contest pilots are not a bottomless pit for cash but we can all afford
>>to donate $100 to a good cause, that's about 3% or less of the average
>>pilots cash cost to attend a 7 day contest.
>>
>>I'd be curious to hear from other contest pilots & managers etc on
>>this subject, be nice.
>>
>>Rick - 21
>>
>>On Aug 2, 8:26 am, John Sinclair
>>
>>
>>
> wrote:
>>
>>>At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
>>>Don't know what could be
>>>done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
>>>some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
>>>be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
>>>JJ- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> I agree increase the deposit and the cancellation period. I was
> called about 12 hours before I would have to hook up the glider and
> start diriving. I informed the contest personel about 1 month before
> that I had to make other plans as I could not count on going. They
> never answered and kept me on the list. Some people work for a living
> and have to schedule vacations!
>

[Andy Blackburn]

At 03:30 03 August 2007, Ray Gimmey wrote:
>I was also on the waiting list but canceled a
>couple weeks before the contest started.
>
>It would be interesting to know how many canceled
>that had a entry number 50 or below.
>Ray

Of the 50 on the list as of the preferential entry
deadline 7 dropped out prior to the first contest day
(not counting 711). They were 32, 36-38, 42, 46 and
50 on the list. The 10 additional drops must have come
late and off the waiting list. They called me 2 weeks
before the first practice day and I was 55 originally.
JJ got in and he was 62 on the list. SD was there and
he was 66.

So it looks like ~70% of those 18 dropouts were people
off the waiting list who likely had made other plans
by the time it got to them. That shouldn't be surprising.
Of the 7 who scratched out of the top 50 I believe
I heard there were a couple who were due to airplane
problems. Say (a guess) half the remainder would take
earlier action if there were a non-refundable deposit
- that's still a couple. And $200 would have paid for
the towpilots' beer.

I say give people 2 weeks after the preferential entry
deadline to confirm, then make the deposits non-refundable.

9B

[John Sinclair]

Hmmmm,
From the May 3, list I see some 12 pilots that didn't
show up for the contest that were listed below 50!
That's almost 25%

I'm in favor of increasing the deposit to $200 bucks
and making it non-refundable 6 weeks prior to the contest.

One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
not taking a position on these controversial programs,
but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
Just some food for thought,
JJ

At 09:48 03 August 2007, Andy Blackburn wrote:
>At 03:30 03 August 2007, Ray Gimmey wrote:
>>I was also on the waiting list but canceled a
>>couple weeks before the contest started.
>>
>>It would be interesting to know how many canceled
>>that had a entry number 50 or below.
>>Ray
>
>Of the 50 on the list as of the preferential entry
>deadline 7 dropped out prior to the first contest day
>(not counting 711). They were 32, 36-38, 42, 46 and
>50 on the list. The 10 additional drops must have come
>late and off the waiting list. They called me 2 weeks
>before the first practice day and I was 55 originally.
>JJ got in and he was 62 on the list. SD was there and
>he was 66.
>
>So it looks like ~70% of those 18 dropouts were people
>off the waiting list who likely had made other plans
>by the time it got to them. That shouldn't be surprising.
>Of the 7 who scratched out of the top 50 I believe
>I heard there were a couple who were due to airplane
>problems. Say (a guess) half the remainder would take
>earlier action if there were a non-refundable deposit
>- that's still a couple. And $200 would have paid for
>the towpilots' beer.
>
>I say give people 2 weeks after the preferential entry
>deadline to confirm, then make the deposits non-refundable.
>
>9B
>
>
>
>

[Tuno]

Anyone who has a big problem with the reverse seeding policy (which is
a Good Thing, if not essential) can organize their own Region X
contest at Parowan. It is not owned by Region 9.

2NO

[John Sinclair]

I just took another look at the 3 May list and 9B is
correct, there were 8 on the list who didn't fly (16%
drop-out).

I'm in favor of allowing new guys in, but do we need
both reverse seeding and no seeding for those within
the sponsoring region? Aren't these rules doing the
same thing? How about just 5 to 10 reverse seeded pilots
for any regionals given out on a first come, first
served basis?
JJ

At 16:00 03 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
>Anyone who has a big problem with the reverse seeding
>policy (which is
>a Good Thing, if not essential) can organize their
>own Region X
>contest at Parowan. It is not owned by Region 9.
>
>2NO
>
>

[BB]

O> One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
> need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
> He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
> within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
> not taking a position on these controversial programs,
> but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
> World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
> Just some food for thought,
> JJ
>

It strikes me we want a third category of contest. Let's call it a
"national regional". One week long, run by regional rules -- multiple
classes, 92 seeding points, etc. -- but with national ranking
determining entry, and no reverse seeding in sports class (as in
sports nationals).

This seems appropriate when the goal, and success of the contest, is
to draw top pilots nationally, perhaps to a site where rank beginners
really shouldn't be flying, and/or a site that is far from the usual
pilot and volunteer base of a region. Seniors already does this by
waiver, and this seems like the right structure for Parowan.
Obviously, the choice whether to run it this way or as a regular
regional stands with the organizers, whichever way they think will
produce a more successful, fun, and safe contest.

I'm sure if there is any reason this is a bad idea, the critical minds
of r.a.s. will figure it out. If not, let's suggest it to the rules
committee.

John Cochrane

[Bill Daniels]

"BB" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>O> One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
>> need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
>> He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
>> within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
>> not taking a position on these controversial programs,
>> but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
>> World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
>> Just some food for thought,
>> JJ
>>
>
> It strikes me we want a third category of contest. Let's call it a
> "national regional". One week long, run by regional rules -- multiple
> classes, 92 seeding points, etc. -- but with national ranking
> determining entry, and no reverse seeding in sports class (as in
> sports nationals).
>
> This seems appropriate when the goal, and success of the contest, is
> to draw top pilots nationally, perhaps to a site where rank beginners
> really shouldn't be flying, and/or a site that is far from the usual
> pilot and volunteer base of a region. Seniors already does this by
> waiver, and this seems like the right structure for Parowan.
> Obviously, the choice whether to run it this way or as a regular
> regional stands with the organizers, whichever way they think will
> produce a more successful, fun, and safe contest.
>
> I'm sure if there is any reason this is a bad idea, the critical minds
> of r.a.s. will figure it out. If not, let's suggest it to the rules
> committee.
>
> John Cochrane
>

I think 'Western National' sounds better than 'Regional National' but it's
a great idea.

Bill Daniels

[Andy Blackburn]

At 18:54 03 August 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>'BB' wrote in message
ups.com...
>>O> One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
>>> need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
>>> He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
>>> within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
>>> not taking a position on these controversial programs,
>>> but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
>>> World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
>>> Just some food for thought,
>>> JJ
>>>
>>
>> It strikes me we want a third category of contest.
>>Let's call it a
>> 'national regional'. One week long, run by regional
>>rules -- multiple
>> classes, 92 seeding points, etc. -- but with national
>>ranking
>> determining entry, and no reverse seeding in sports
>>class (as in
>> sports nationals).
>>
>> This seems appropriate when the goal, and success
>>of the contest, is
>> to draw top pilots nationally, perhaps to a site where
>>rank beginners
>> really shouldn't be flying, and/or a site that is
>>far from the usual
>> pilot and volunteer base of a region. Seniors already
>>does this by
>> waiver, and this seems like the right structure for
>>Parowan.
>> Obviously, the choice whether to run it this way or
>>as a regular
>> regional stands with the organizers, whichever way
>>they think will
>> produce a more successful, fun, and safe contest.
>>
>> I'm sure if there is any reason this is a bad idea,
>>the critical minds
>> of r.a.s. will figure it out. If not, let's suggest
>>it to the rules
>> committee.
>>
>> John Cochrane
>>
>
>I think 'Western National' sounds better than 'Regional
>National' but it's
>a great idea.
>
>Bill Daniels
>

Out west I think Parowan is one of the better sites
for newbies - at least in terms outlanding possibilities.
The Air Force cadets had a good time this year I think
and it was good to have them - though technically they
didn't consume any entry spots.

It seems that Parowan is sapping participants from
the other western regionals, so it would be interesting
to see what the effect would be if you held a western
'national' contest there. Would Minden, Hobbs, Montague,
Moriarty, Phoenix, pop up as as the 'hot' regional.
Or you could try for the western 'national' contest
at Ely - that place is definitely not for newbies,
plus you can carry water ballast. There would be all
the operational details to work out of course.

Guess it depends on what problem you're trying to solve.

9B

[John Sinclair]

Great idea, John
The problem only seems to occur at Mifflin and Parowan
+ the seniors, the rest of our regionals don't fill
up (we only had 12 at Region 11 and 2 of them were
from outside the region). We could name it; Western
Nationals, Eastern Nationals & Senior Nationals.
JJ

At 18:12 03 August 2007, Bb wrote:
>O> One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
>> need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
>> He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
>> within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
>> not taking a position on these controversial programs,
>> but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
>> World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
>> Just some food for thought,
>> JJ
>>
>
>It strikes me we want a third category of contest.
>Let's call it a
>'national regional'. One week long, run by regional
>rules -- multiple
>classes, 92 seeding points, etc. -- but with national
>ranking
>determining entry, and no reverse seeding in sports
>class (as in
>sports nationals).
>
>This seems appropriate when the goal, and success of
>the contest, is
>to draw top pilots nationally, perhaps to a site where
>rank beginners
>really shouldn't be flying, and/or a site that is far
>from the usual
>pilot and volunteer base of a region. Seniors already
>does this by
>waiver, and this seems like the right structure for
>Parowan.
>Obviously, the choice whether to run it this way or
>as a regular
>regional stands with the organizers, whichever way
>they think will
>produce a more successful, fun, and safe contest.
>
>I'm sure if there is any reason this is a bad idea,
>the critical minds
>of r.a.s. will figure it out. If not, let's suggest
>it to the rules
>committee.
>
>John Cochrane
>
>
>

[Tuno]

Let's face it -- flying at Parowan is a real treat for anybody.
Wouldn't it be gr8 to see multiple regions host contests there at
different times of the year -- Region 9 in June, Region 12 in August,
whoever/whenever/whatever.

Who knows, maybe the RV park will get improved after the runway, then
my crew will want to come back!

2NO

[Richard[_1_]]

On Aug 3, 1:16 pm, Andy Blackburn >
wrote:
> At 18:54 03 August 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >'BB' wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >>O> One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
> >>> need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
> >>> He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
> >>> within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
> >>> not taking a position on these controversial programs,
> >>> but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
> >>> World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
> >>> Just some food for thought,
> >>> JJ
>
> >> It strikes me we want a third category of contest.
> >>Let's call it a
> >> 'national regional'. One week long, run by regional
> >>rules -- multiple
> >> classes, 92 seeding points, etc. -- but with national
> >>ranking
> >> determining entry, and no reverse seeding in sports
> >>class (as in
> >> sports nationals).
>
> >> This seems appropriate when the goal, and success
> >>of the contest, is
> >> to draw top pilots nationally, perhaps to a site where
> >>rank beginners
> >> really shouldn't be flying, and/or a site that is
> >>far from the usual
> >> pilot and volunteer base of a region. Seniors already
> >>does this by
> >> waiver, and this seems like the right structure for
> >>Parowan.
> >> Obviously, the choice whether to run it this way or
> >>as a regular
> >> regional stands with the organizers, whichever way
> >>they think will
> >> produce a more successful, fun, and safe contest.
>
> >> I'm sure if there is any reason this is a bad idea,
> >>the critical minds
> >> of r.a.s. will figure it out. If not, let's suggest
> >>it to the rules
> >> committee.
>
> >> John Cochrane
>
> >I think 'Western National' sounds better than 'Regional
> >National' but it's
> >a great idea.
>
> >Bill Daniels
>
> Out west I think Parowan is one of the better sites
> for newbies - at least in terms outlanding possibilities.
> The Air Force cadets had a good time this year I think
> and it was good to have them - though technically they
> didn't consume any entry spots.
>
> It seems that Parowan is sapping participants from
> the other western regionals, so it would be interesting
> to see what the effect would be if you held a western
> 'national' contest there. Would Minden, Hobbs, Montague,
> Moriarty, Phoenix, pop up as as the 'hot' regional.
> Or you could try for the western 'national' contest
> at Ely - that place is definitely not for newbies,
> plus you can carry water ballast. There would be all
> the operational details to work out of course.
>
> Guess it depends on what problem you're trying to solve.
>
> 9B- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I also agree that Parowan is a wonderfull soaring site. It only has
one huge problem for contests except for Sports Class, no water. I
was also concerned about the long takeoff runs and the absence of
places to go if you had a rope problem.


Richard Pfiffner
www.craggyaero.com

[Go]

As someone who has recently been on the entry level of contests (four
regional and one national in the past four years) I wonder if it might
be more fruitful to have additional learning oriented contests at the
entry level rather than creating a tier of contests between Regional
and National.

There is a lot of talk about needing more contest pilots but where is
the effort to encourage pilots to come out and try a contest, learn
contest flying and perfect their skills? It seems to me that if we are
to make an effort to create more contest opportunities we should be
doing it at the entry level rather than the upper echelon. I do
understand that one intent of 'Regional Nationals' would be to free up
'regular Regionals' for reverse seeded and lower rated pilots. Is that
correct? But is a Regional really a learning environment which will
encourage more pilots to give competition a try and/or learn to
compete?

As I have learned to compete in this sport I have been alert to find
opportunities to improve my competition and xc skills. From what I
have seen the opportunities to learn and practice competition skills
are scarce unless you happen to be a Junior. It appears to me (and
please correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of competition
camps exclude non-Junior pilots. (BTW: I am not all being critical of
the Jr. camps.) I attended a 'competition camp' here in Reg. 12 last
year and, despite the best of intentions and efforts by the sponsors,
the competition part of the camp really didn't happen. Class time was
spent with the beginning XC pilots. Thus some of the discussion was
over their heads and the majority covered basics.

There is the one contest at Air Sailing which is billed as an entry
level contest and they do a great job giving pilots an opportunity for
their first contest experience. But what about setting up training
contests east, west, and midwest? Including classes by proven contest
pilots in the morning, contest tasks in the afternoon, and then review
and critique in the evening. It might just get some of our experienced
and new XC pilots to give competition a try and provide an opportunity
for those who have flown contests to hone their skills?

John Downing