Re: RAC grip (Formerly MAC)

[Ed Wischmeyer]

> Has anyone got an appreciation of the RAC (formerly Menzimer Aircraft
> Corporation) stick grips? I am particularely interested in the multiple
> switch model.

Don't know which one that is, but there's a lot of very bad human
factors that goes into stick grips with lots of switches.

Attributes of things you want on the switch:
* You use 'em a lot
* You need 'em in a hurry
* If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal

A disadvantage of things on the stick is that they're usually not
labeled, and if they are, you may have to remove your hand to [try to]
read the label.

Best examples of things that may belong on the stick are electric trim
and push to talk.

Things you should *not* have on the stick are starter, flaps, and cowl
flaps. Some folks do that, but...

Ed Wischmeyer

[B2431]

>
>Attributes of things you want on the switch:
>* You use 'em a lot
>* You need 'em in a hurry
>* If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal

Agreed. There's on grip I see advertised frequently that has a bat wing toggle
switch which can be easily knocked by accident. Not a good idea.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Francois Marquis]

A agree too. My intented usage is:
PTT, of course,
Aileron trim (my pitch trim is mechanical)
AutoPilot Engage/Disengage
Argus Moving map select/Info modes
Approach timer (although this is not absolutely necessary there)

It is hard to imagine that someone would put the starter and other
things on the baseball bat as stated in another post.

Here's what I am talking about, particularely the model G7:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/macstickgrips.php

Francois

Ed Wischmeyer wrote:
>>Has anyone got an appreciation of the RAC (formerly Menzimer Aircraft
>>Corporation) stick grips? I am particularely interested in the multiple
>>switch model.
>
>
> Don't know which one that is, but there's a lot of very bad human
> factors that goes into stick grips with lots of switches.
>
> Attributes of things you want on the switch:
> * You use 'em a lot
> * You need 'em in a hurry
> * If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal
>
> A disadvantage of things on the stick is that they're usually not
> labeled, and if they are, you may have to remove your hand to [try to]
> read the label.
>
> Best examples of things that may belong on the stick are electric trim
> and push to talk.
>
> Things you should *not* have on the stick are starter, flaps, and cowl
> flaps. Some folks do that, but...
>
> Ed Wischmeyer

[Jeff]

Francois,

IMO there is nothing wrong with multiple switches on a control stick as long
as they are done properly. You would not want to have a 1" long switch
hanging out the side of a control stick that is very prone to accidental
activation. I fly OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopter in the Army and our
co-pilot cyclic stick has about 10 switches to control a wide variety of
systems.. The pilot cyclic stick has a few less, but they still more than
the maximum number on a Ray Allen stick.

I have flown briefly with the exact stick grip you are talking about. It
was very comfortable....in fact I ordered one last week for my plane
directly from the manufacturer. Go to
http://www.rayallencompany.com/index.html and you will find all the details.
I ordered the G207 and opted for switch #3 and #5 to be used in place of the
extra 2 push-button switches found on the 207. I will use the 4 small push
button switches for elevator and aileron trim. The #3 switch will be used
to operate my speed brake and the #5 switch will control my reflexor.

Included with the control are some really nice labels so you can identify
the switch functions. The stick can be mounted on a 3/4", 7/8", or 1" tube.
The real advantage of directly ordering from Ray Allen is you can specify 4
different types of switches that will be used for those 2 extra switches on
the G207.

Jeff
Dragonfly N1277W - http://fly-raptor.org/~jeff/
Tandem Wing Fly-In web site - http://www.fidnet.com/~letempt/


"Francois Marquis" > wrote in message
...
> A agree too. My intented usage is:
> PTT, of course,
> Aileron trim (my pitch trim is mechanical)
> AutoPilot Engage/Disengage
> Argus Moving map select/Info modes
> Approach timer (although this is not absolutely necessary there)
>
> It is hard to imagine that someone would put the starter and other
> things on the baseball bat as stated in another post.
>
> Here's what I am talking about, particularely the model G7:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/macstickgrips.php
>
> Francois
>
> Ed Wischmeyer wrote:
> >>Has anyone got an appreciation of the RAC (formerly Menzimer Aircraft
> >>Corporation) stick grips? I am particularely interested in the multiple
> >>switch model.
> >
> >
> > Don't know which one that is, but there's a lot of very bad human
> > factors that goes into stick grips with lots of switches.
> >
> > Attributes of things you want on the switch:
> > * You use 'em a lot
> > * You need 'em in a hurry
> > * If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal
> >
> > A disadvantage of things on the stick is that they're usually not
> > labeled, and if they are, you may have to remove your hand to [try to]
> > read the label.
> >
> > Best examples of things that may belong on the stick are electric trim
> > and push to talk.
> >
> > Things you should *not* have on the stick are starter, flaps, and cowl
> > flaps. Some folks do that, but...
> >
> > Ed Wischmeyer
>

[Ray Romeu]

That reminds me of an incident over Cape Coral Fl, a new pilot was flying a
moskito spray chopper and instead of the push to talk he pushed the wrong
button on the stick and dumped his bug killer over a couple of houses,
killed the landscape plants and ****ed the owner too.

Ray

"Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
...
> > Has anyone got an appreciation of the RAC (formerly Menzimer Aircraft
> > Corporation) stick grips? I am particularely interested in the multiple
> > switch model.
>
> Don't know which one that is, but there's a lot of very bad human
> factors that goes into stick grips with lots of switches.
>
> Attributes of things you want on the switch:
> * You use 'em a lot
> * You need 'em in a hurry
> * If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal
>
> A disadvantage of things on the stick is that they're usually not
> labeled, and if they are, you may have to remove your hand to [try to]
> read the label.
>
> Best examples of things that may belong on the stick are electric trim
> and push to talk.
>
> Things you should *not* have on the stick are starter, flaps, and cowl
> flaps. Some folks do that, but...
>
> Ed Wischmeyer

[Flightdeck]

Yep - that was a "Oh, ****!

But, better bug spray than the same thing happening with some of the
milatary stuff that flies in that area. "Sir, you know how the egg heads
were wondering how the earthquake bomb would work in a populated area?
Well...."

I used to be pretty casual about flying up and down just off the west coast
of Florida and also using the Gulf direct route VFR to Key West even if it
meant being out far enough to deal with customs. Lots quicker than going
all the way East and following the Keys down. However, I attended a "Rain
Check" and they had invited guys from the Navy and Airforce to talk about
the Warning Areas. They showed "gun camera" footage and radar tracks. Now,
that was a real eye opener!

J

"Ray Romeu" > wrote in message
...
> That reminds me of an incident over Cape Coral Fl, a new pilot was flying
a
> moskito spray chopper and instead of the push to talk he pushed the wrong
> button on the stick and dumped his bug killer over a couple of houses,
> killed the landscape plants and ****ed the owner too.
>
> Ray
>
> "Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Has anyone got an appreciation of the RAC (formerly Menzimer Aircraft
> > > Corporation) stick grips? I am particularely interested in the
multiple
> > > switch model.
> >
> > Don't know which one that is, but there's a lot of very bad human
> > factors that goes into stick grips with lots of switches.
> >
> > Attributes of things you want on the switch:
> > * You use 'em a lot
> > * You need 'em in a hurry
> > * If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal
> >
> > A disadvantage of things on the stick is that they're usually not
> > labeled, and if they are, you may have to remove your hand to [try to]
> > read the label.
> >
> > Best examples of things that may belong on the stick are electric trim
> > and push to talk.
> >
> > Things you should *not* have on the stick are starter, flaps, and cowl
> > flaps. Some folks do that, but...
> >
> > Ed Wischmeyer
>
>

[Francois Marquis]

Jeff,

Thanks for the info. This is literally what i'd call *first hand*
information!

But as you mentioned, if the stick is incident prone (like inadvertently
droping a map on it, for exemple) I'd, for my part, would be reluctant
to have speed brakes, or anything other than system related switches on
that stick, unless there was a safety device to prevent accidental
activation. I'd nightmired myself accidently activating speed brakes
while *fighting* in a xwind flare in gusty winds...

But I guess that flying Helios have a different human interface than
fixed wing. You have both hands tied, so to say, so all is left are
your fingers!

Francois

Jeff wrote:
> Francois,
>
> IMO there is nothing wrong with multiple switches on a control stick as long
> as they are done properly. You would not want to have a 1" long switch
> hanging out the side of a control stick that is very prone to accidental
> activation. I fly OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopter in the Army and our
> co-pilot cyclic stick has about 10 switches to control a wide variety of
> systems.. The pilot cyclic stick has a few less, but they still more than
> the maximum number on a Ray Allen stick.
>
> I have flown briefly with the exact stick grip you are talking about. It
> was very comfortable....in fact I ordered one last week for my plane
> directly from the manufacturer. Go to
> http://www.rayallencompany.com/index.html and you will find all the details.
> I ordered the G207 and opted for switch #3 and #5 to be used in place of the
> extra 2 push-button switches found on the 207. I will use the 4 small push
> button switches for elevator and aileron trim. The #3 switch will be used
> to operate my speed brake and the #5 switch will control my reflexor.
>
> Included with the control are some really nice labels so you can identify
> the switch functions. The stick can be mounted on a 3/4", 7/8", or 1" tube.
> The real advantage of directly ordering from Ray Allen is you can specify 4
> different types of switches that will be used for those 2 extra switches on
> the G207.
>
> Jeff
> Dragonfly N1277W - http://fly-raptor.org/~jeff/
> Tandem Wing Fly-In web site - http://www.fidnet.com/~letempt/
>
>
> "Francois Marquis" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>A agree too. My intented usage is:
>>PTT, of course,
>>Aileron trim (my pitch trim is mechanical)
>>AutoPilot Engage/Disengage
>>Argus Moving map select/Info modes
>>Approach timer (although this is not absolutely necessary there)
>>
>>It is hard to imagine that someone would put the starter and other
>>things on the baseball bat as stated in another post.
>>
>>Here's what I am talking about, particularely the model G7:
>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/macstickgrips.php
>>
>>Francois
>>
>>Ed Wischmeyer wrote:
>>
>>>>Has anyone got an appreciation of the RAC (formerly Menzimer Aircraft
>>>>Corporation) stick grips? I am particularely interested in the multiple
>>>>switch model.
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't know which one that is, but there's a lot of very bad human
>>>factors that goes into stick grips with lots of switches.
>>>
>>>Attributes of things you want on the switch:
>>>* You use 'em a lot
>>>* You need 'em in a hurry
>>>* If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal
>>>
>>>A disadvantage of things on the stick is that they're usually not
>>>labeled, and if they are, you may have to remove your hand to [try to]
>>>read the label.
>>>
>>>Best examples of things that may belong on the stick are electric trim
>>>and push to talk.
>>>
>>>Things you should *not* have on the stick are starter, flaps, and cowl
>>>flaps. Some folks do that, but...
>>>
>>>Ed Wischmeyer
>>
>
>

[Jeff]

Francois,

I just got my very own G207 from the UPS man yesterday. $112 delivered to
my doorstep directly from the manufacturer with the 2 non-standard switches
installed.

My speed brake will be controlled by an on-off-on switch and I will have a
deployment light on the instrument panel.. If I should happen to
accidentally bump the switch I would have an idiot light come on in front of
my face and I suspect I will fell that 13" x 15" hanging out in the breeze
http://www.fly-raptor.org/~jeff/Latest.htm My reflexor will be controlled
by a (on)-off-(on) switch and a accidental momentary activation would have
little or no effect.

As far as your nightmare goes.....(I am an Aviation Safety Officer by
profession) most fixed wing accidents happen within a mile of so of the
airport, most during take-off or landing. When you are within a few miles
of the airport you attention has to be on flying the airplane. At this
point of your flight the cockpit should be a sterile environment and all
activities should be limited to what it takes to safely operate the
airplane. Your scenario is not very likely with the Ray Allen stick grip.
If you are flying the plane, you would have to want to activate one of the 2
special switches. They are not located in a position where your thumb would
naturally be located.

Jeff




"Francois Marquis" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff,
>
> Thanks for the info. This is literally what i'd call *first hand*
> information!
>
> But as you mentioned, if the stick is incident prone (like inadvertently
> droping a map on it, for exemple) I'd, for my part, would be reluctant
> to have speed brakes, or anything other than system related switches on
> that stick, unless there was a safety device to prevent accidental
> activation. I'd nightmired myself accidently activating speed brakes
> while *fighting* in a xwind flare in gusty winds...
>
> But I guess that flying Helios have a different human interface than
> fixed wing. You have both hands tied, so to say, so all is left are
> your fingers!
>
> Francois
>
> Jeff wrote:
> > Francois,
> >
> > IMO there is nothing wrong with multiple switches on a control stick as
long
> > as they are done properly. You would not want to have a 1" long switch
> > hanging out the side of a control stick that is very prone to accidental
> > activation. I fly OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopter in the Army and our
> > co-pilot cyclic stick has about 10 switches to control a wide variety of
> > systems.. The pilot cyclic stick has a few less, but they still more
than
> > the maximum number on a Ray Allen stick.
> >
> > I have flown briefly with the exact stick grip you are talking about.
It
> > was very comfortable....in fact I ordered one last week for my plane
> > directly from the manufacturer. Go to
> > http://www.rayallencompany.com/index.html and you will find all the
details.
> > I ordered the G207 and opted for switch #3 and #5 to be used in place of
the
> > extra 2 push-button switches found on the 207. I will use the 4 small
push
> > button switches for elevator and aileron trim. The #3 switch will be
used
> > to operate my speed brake and the #5 switch will control my reflexor.
> >
> > Included with the control are some really nice labels so you can
identify
> > the switch functions. The stick can be mounted on a 3/4", 7/8", or 1"
tube.
> > The real advantage of directly ordering from Ray Allen is you can
specify 4
> > different types of switches that will be used for those 2 extra switches
on
> > the G207.
> >
> > Jeff
> > Dragonfly N1277W - http://fly-raptor.org/~jeff/
> > Tandem Wing Fly-In web site - http://www.fidnet.com/~letempt/
> >
> >
> > "Francois Marquis" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>A agree too. My intented usage is:
> >>PTT, of course,
> >>Aileron trim (my pitch trim is mechanical)
> >>AutoPilot Engage/Disengage
> >>Argus Moving map select/Info modes
> >>Approach timer (although this is not absolutely necessary there)
> >>
> >>It is hard to imagine that someone would put the starter and other
> >>things on the baseball bat as stated in another post.
> >>
> >>Here's what I am talking about, particularely the model G7:
> >>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/macstickgrips.php
> >>
> >>Francois
> >>
> >>Ed Wischmeyer wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Has anyone got an appreciation of the RAC (formerly Menzimer Aircraft
> >>>>Corporation) stick grips? I am particularely interested in the
multiple
> >>>>switch model.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Don't know which one that is, but there's a lot of very bad human
> >>>factors that goes into stick grips with lots of switches.
> >>>
> >>>Attributes of things you want on the switch:
> >>>* You use 'em a lot
> >>>* You need 'em in a hurry
> >>>* If you push 'em by mistake, no big deal
> >>>
> >>>A disadvantage of things on the stick is that they're usually not
> >>>labeled, and if they are, you may have to remove your hand to [try to]
> >>>read the label.
> >>>
> >>>Best examples of things that may belong on the stick are electric trim
> >>>and push to talk.
> >>>
> >>>Things you should *not* have on the stick are starter, flaps, and cowl
> >>>flaps. Some folks do that, but...
> >>>
> >>>Ed Wischmeyer
> >>
> >
> >
>