We still need FSS

[john smith[_2_]]

Some have posted here that we no longer need FSS and all the bungling
associated with the Loc-KMart transition. I disagree.

While DUAT/DUATS, AWOS/ASOS and aviationweather.gov provide excellent
graphics, text and aural reports, we still need trained, live briefers
to interpret the local conditions.

It is the experienced trained, live briefers that have left that we
desperately need to be replaced.

For example, when I left OSH Saturday morning, I could see the
beginnings of an undercast as I flew south towards Chicago. There were
some buildups along the lakeshore, but that is normal for the Kenosha
area. VFR over the top going around Chicago's west and south sides, the
undercast was solid. Continuing eastward across Indiana, there were some
gaps in the central part of the state closing again west of FWA. Over
FWA the tops were starting to pop around mid-day.

I was cruising along at 7500 MSL, the OAT was 60-degrees F.

This was an inversion, but the computer access did not tell me that. Not
even the two FSS briefers I spoke with during the two-and-a-half hour
flight told me about it. One of the briefers I spoke with was a trainee.
I knew it from a flight a year ago when I requested enroute weather from
another FSS briefer over Tennessee. Similiar conditions prevailed on
that day and the briefed provided an very thorough briefing of the
conditions and what to expect.

The consolidation has truely deteriorated the quality of the briefings
we now receive, but I look forward to the improvements to come. The fact
that we get shuffled around to far off place when we place a telephone
call is not good, but the air-to-ground calls should be answered by
briefers who will quickly learn their new local patterns.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:28:50 -0400, john smith >
wrote in >:

>Some have posted here that we no longer need FSS and all the bungling
>associated with the Loc-KMart transition. I disagree.

Thank you.

>While DUAT/DUATS, AWOS/ASOS and aviationweather.gov provide excellent
>graphics, text and aural reports, we still need trained, live briefers
>to interpret the local conditions.
>
>It is the experienced trained, live briefers that have left that we
>desperately need to be replaced.

It is unfortunate that so much experienced FSS labor was replaced with
green recruits by Lockheed Martin. To lose that expertise without
remorse reveals a cavalier and uncaring attitude, as well as a
fundamental lack of insight into the historical function of Flight
Service Stations.

[Story of metrological inept FSS personnel snipped.]
>
>The consolidation has truely deteriorated the quality of the briefings
>we now receive, but I look forward to the improvements to come. The fact
>that we get shuffled around to far off place when we place a telephone
>call is not good, but the air-to-ground calls should be answered by
>briefers who will quickly learn their new local patterns.

While I agree with your lament of the poor knowledge level of the
personnel employed in the new privatized FSS system now, there is
another fundamental argument that opposes the notion of
decommissioning Flight Service Stations.

When you find yourself at a small rural airport, how are you to use
DUATS to receive a preflight briefing?

[Paul kgyy]

>
> I was cruising along at 7500 MSL, the OAT was 60-degrees F.
>
> This was an inversion, but the computer access did not tell me that. Not
> even the two FSS briefers I spoke with during the two-and-a-half hour
> flight told me about it. One of the briefers I spoke with was a trainee.
> I knew it from a flight a year ago when I requested enroute weather from
> another FSS briefer over Tennessee. Similiar conditions prevailed on
> that day and the briefed provided an very thorough briefing of the
> conditions and what to expect.

The problem is that the recruits have no local knowledge.
Specifically, that an inversion is common in the vicinity of Chicago,
and that Lake Michigan often generates a mini-high pressure zone of
its own in summer because the water is so cold.

We do need some form of FSS that can be contacted by pilots in remote
areas or without onboard weather, but the current FSS is not what we
need.

Even when the FSS was fully functional, I was on a flight through
western Kansas a couple of years ago in deteriorating conditions,
called FSS, and was told I was No 4 in line for service. It probably
took close to 20 minutes to actually talk to someone. That's when I
decided that onboard weather was cheap insurance.

[Jay Honeck]

> When you find yourself at a small rural airport, how are you to use
> DUATS to receive a preflight briefing?

This dilemma has driven sales of products like the Garmin 496 and
Pilot MyCast. I know I use both of these weather marvels all the
time, since we often visit rural airports that lack weather computers.

Consolidating and privatizing flight service has shifted the cost of
weather reporting from the taxpayer to the user. Normally I would not
be happy with this situation, but quite honestly the live-and-
constantly-updated weather I get from the 496 is vastly superior to
any FSS briefing I've ever received.

With weather, a picture really IS worth a thousand words, and having
guys tell you the weather over the phone is simply another job that
technology has made obsolete.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[bdl]

On Aug 1, 9:45 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> With weather, a picture really IS worth a thousand words, and having
> guys tell you the weather over the phone is simply another job that
> technology has made obsolete.

Good point, Jay, although I'd like a cheaper solution than the
496....

In this "user fee" environment there is no way that FSS in its old
glory could remain. It was something like half a billion (yes Billion
with a B) annually to maintain the system. And it's ONLY used by
GA. The airlines have their own dispatchers, providing their own
weather information. Even with the current system its only supposed
to be a savings of around $200 million/year.

There's not enough GA pilots to justify the cost of the system.

I'm still waiting/hoping for the FS21 features that have been
promised. The ability to look at the same "screen" as the briefer
with which your on the phone, etc. I think that will make things go
faster resulting in the ability to handle more calls/briefer. It's
easier for you both to look at the same picture and talk about second
order data, than have to describe the picture in words. Combine this
with more geographically tailored airmets (instead of the whole
Midwest covered with a "moderate turb below 8k" airmet) and the
briefing picture becomes better/cheaper.

Brian
N9093K

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 07:45:06 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in om>:

>having
>guys tell you the weather over the phone is simply another job that
>technology has made obsolete.

So while at a remote rural airport, how do you learn of TFRs without
Flight Service Stations?

[Jay Honeck]

> >having
> >guys tell you the weather over the phone is simply another job that
> >technology has made obsolete.
>
> So while at a remote rural airport, how do you learn of TFRs without
> Flight Service Stations?

I actually still use my cell phone to call FSS before each flight,
solely to check for TFRs. This is probably silly, since TFRs are
shown on the 496 screen -- but in Iowa during an election season, I do
it solely for "CYA" purposes...

The old "belt & suspenders" approach is best, when it comes to
F-16s...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm still waiting/hoping for the FS21 features that have been
> promised. The ability to look at the same "screen" as the briefer
> with which your on the phone, etc. I think that will make things go
> faster resulting in the ability to handle more calls/briefer. It's
> easier for you both to look at the same picture and talk about second
> order data, than have to describe the picture in words. Combine this
> with more geographically tailored airmets (instead of the whole
> Midwest covered with a "moderate turb below 8k" airmet) and the
> briefing picture becomes better/cheaper.

I found it interesting that the North 40 FSS briefers at OSH this year
were using ADDs, and raving about it.

I've been using this website for the past couple of years, and -- when
done in conjunction with a telephone briefing -- I was always able to
access pertinent data faster than the briefers. I'm glad that Lock/
Mart is letting their guys use whatever works
best, rather than restricting them to the same-old-same-old.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:10:13 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>> >having
>> >guys tell you the weather over the phone is simply another job that
>> >technology has made obsolete.
>>
>> So while at a remote rural airport, how do you learn of TFRs without
>> Flight Service Stations?
>
>I actually still use my cell phone to call FSS before each flight,
>solely to check for TFRs. This is probably silly, since TFRs are
>shown on the 496 screen -- but in Iowa during an election season, I do
>it solely for "CYA" purposes...
>

Right. It's not possible to use DUATS without computer access, and
you need an "official" briefing to CYA for TFRs. FSS can't be
decommissioned yet.

[Bob Gardner]

With the advent of super-FSS centers, your chances of stumbling across a
briefer with local knowledge of the airport(s) you are interested in is
dwindling fast.

Bob Gardner

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Some have posted here that we no longer need FSS and all the bungling
> associated with the Loc-KMart transition. I disagree.
>
> While DUAT/DUATS, AWOS/ASOS and aviationweather.gov provide excellent
> graphics, text and aural reports, we still need trained, live briefers
> to interpret the local conditions.
>
> It is the experienced trained, live briefers that have left that we
> desperately need to be replaced.
>
> For example, when I left OSH Saturday morning, I could see the
> beginnings of an undercast as I flew south towards Chicago. There were
> some buildups along the lakeshore, but that is normal for the Kenosha
> area. VFR over the top going around Chicago's west and south sides, the
> undercast was solid. Continuing eastward across Indiana, there were some
> gaps in the central part of the state closing again west of FWA. Over
> FWA the tops were starting to pop around mid-day.
>
> I was cruising along at 7500 MSL, the OAT was 60-degrees F.
>
> This was an inversion, but the computer access did not tell me that. Not
> even the two FSS briefers I spoke with during the two-and-a-half hour
> flight told me about it. One of the briefers I spoke with was a trainee.
> I knew it from a flight a year ago when I requested enroute weather from
> another FSS briefer over Tennessee. Similiar conditions prevailed on
> that day and the briefed provided an very thorough briefing of the
> conditions and what to expect.
>
> The consolidation has truely deteriorated the quality of the briefings
> we now receive, but I look forward to the improvements to come. The fact
> that we get shuffled around to far off place when we place a telephone
> call is not good, but the air-to-ground calls should be answered by
> briefers who will quickly learn their new local patterns.

[Jay Honeck]

> With the advent of super-FSS centers, your chances of stumbling across a
> briefer with local knowledge of the airport(s) you are interested in is
> dwindling fast.

True, but it *is* refreshing that Lock/Mart is hiring only Private
Pilots (or better) to be briefers.

Compared to the monotone bureaucrats we used to get on the phone, it's
nice to speak with someone who actually walks the walk.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[bdl]

On Aug 1, 1:01 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > With the advent of super-FSS centers, your chances of stumbling across a
> > briefer with local knowledge of the airport(s) you are interested in is
> > dwindling fast.
>
> True, but it *is* refreshing that Lock/Mart is hiring only Private
> Pilots (or better) to be briefers.
>
Really? Hadn't heard that.

Brian
N9093K

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:01:42 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>it *is* refreshing that Lock/Mart is hiring only Private
>Pilots (or better) to be briefers.

Where did you hear that?

[Newps]

No way. These people are absolutely cluless right now.




Jay Honeck wrote:
>>With the advent of super-FSS centers, your chances of stumbling across a
>>briefer with local knowledge of the airport(s) you are interested in is
>>dwindling fast.
>
>
> True, but it *is* refreshing that Lock/Mart is hiring only Private
> Pilots (or better) to be briefers.
>
> Compared to the monotone bureaucrats we used to get on the phone, it's
> nice to speak with someone who actually walks the walk.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> >it *is* refreshing that Lock/Mart is hiring only Private
> >Pilots (or better) to be briefers.
>
> Where did you hear that?

Cherokee Pilots Association talk, put on by Lock/Mart at the 2006 fly-
in.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:05:59 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>> >it *is* refreshing that Lock/Mart is hiring only Private
>> >Pilots (or better) to be briefers.
>>
>> Where did you hear that?
>
>Cherokee Pilots Association talk, put on by Lock/Mart at the 2006 fly-
>in.

Pretty close, but being an airman is not actually a requirement for
becoming a flight service specialist:

http://www.afss.com/field/?sp=20070306
Newly hired flight service specialists are required to have an
aviation-related degree and/or aviation experience. Being a pilot
is preferred, but is not necessary.

[Jay Honeck]

> http://www.afss.com/field/?sp=20070306
> Newly hired flight service specialists are required to have an
> aviation-related degree and/or aviation experience. Being a pilot
> is preferred, but is not necessary.

This is a good thing that will (eventually) result in a VERY high
quality FSS crew, IMHO. How many times in the past did you talk to a
monotone 'crat without the slightest knowledge of (or care about)
actually performing the flight he was briefing?

Too many times, around here.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:35:59 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

> This is a good thing that will (eventually) result in a VERY high quality
> FSS crew, IMHO. How many times in the past did you talk to a monotone
> 'crat without the slightest knowledge of (or care about) actually
> performing the flight he was briefing?

Most briefings I've done over the years have been pro-forma. Recently,
for example, it's often a CYA exercise more than anything else.

However, the occasion time I needed to really speak to someone about the
weather I was more than satisfied by the briefers to whom I spoke. I
still recall one chat about "local conditions" in an area unfamiliar to me
that was incredibly helpful and educational. This was all before the
corporate takeover.

Will it be better with all the briefers as pilots or close? Hard to
imagine *better*, but it's not a bad idea. On the other hand, I hope they
accept meteorologic "credits" too.

- Andrew

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:35:59 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>> http://www.afss.com/field/?sp=20070306
>> Newly hired flight service specialists are required to have an
>> aviation-related degree and/or aviation experience. Being a pilot
>> is preferred, but is not necessary.
>
>This is a good thing that will (eventually) result in a VERY high
>quality FSS crew, IMHO.

I applaud LockMart's aviation experience requirement for flight
service specialists, but you must remember that a significant number
of experienced personnel, familiar with local meteorological
phenomena, have been replaced by raw recruits. It will be a long time
(if ever) before they acquire the expertise of the old hands who
formerly manned the briefing lines.

>How many times in the past did you talk to a
>monotone 'crat without the slightest knowledge of (or care about)
>actually performing the flight he was briefing?

Never.

>Too many times, around here.

That's remarkable.

[Jay Honeck]

> >How many times in the past did you talk to a
> >monotone 'crat without the slightest knowledge of (or care about)
> >actually performing the flight he was briefing?
>
> Never.

Really? That's remarkable.

> >Too many times, around here.
>
> That's remarkable.

In my experience, I'd say about one in five calls to FSS resulted in a
monotone briefing from a dead fish. (Of course, at least they
answered the phone!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[B A R R Y]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:37:20 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote:
>
>In my experience, I'd say about one in five calls to FSS resulted in a
>monotone briefing from a dead fish.

I agree. Since I'm a DUATS / ADDS guy, I only place a voice call
about one in five flights, but my experience is similar.

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> http://www.afss.com/field/?sp=20070306
>> Newly hired flight service specialists are required to have an
>> aviation-related degree and/or aviation experience. Being a pilot
>> is preferred, but is not necessary.
>
> This is a good thing that will (eventually) result in a VERY high
> quality FSS crew, IMHO. How many times in the past did you talk to a
> monotone 'crat without the slightest knowledge of (or care about)
> actually performing the flight he was briefing?

I don't think it matters. With the consolidation of FSS stations, the
concept mentioned at the outset of this thread about having "local
knowledge" is simply not going to happen in the future. I haven't
called a flight service station since I can't remember when. The only
reason I've called them in the last 10 years was to get a void time
clearance. Give me a line to Center and I won't even need FSS for that.

FSS is an anachronism and needs to just be shut down and the money
better spent elsewhere, IMO.

Matt

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> http://www.afss.com/field/?sp=20070306
>>> Newly hired flight service specialists are required to have an
>>> aviation-related degree and/or aviation experience. Being a
>>> pilot is preferred, but is not necessary.
>>
>> This is a good thing that will (eventually) result in a VERY high
>> quality FSS crew, IMHO. How many times in the past did you talk to a
>> monotone 'crat without the slightest knowledge of (or care about)
>> actually performing the flight he was briefing?
>
> I don't think it matters. With the consolidation of FSS stations, the
> concept mentioned at the outset of this thread about having "local
> knowledge" is simply not going to happen in the future. I haven't
> called a flight service station since I can't remember when. The only
> reason I've called them in the last 10 years was to get a void time
> clearance. Give me a line to Center and I won't even need FSS for
> that.
> FSS is an anachronism and needs to just be shut down and the money
> better spent elsewhere, IMO.
>
> Matt

Plus it is the one place that the airlines are correct in saying it is a
service that only GA uses. And they only need a small crack to stick there
foot in.

[Matt Whiting]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>> http://www.afss.com/field/?sp=20070306
>>>> Newly hired flight service specialists are required to have an
>>>> aviation-related degree and/or aviation experience. Being a
>>>> pilot is preferred, but is not necessary.
>>> This is a good thing that will (eventually) result in a VERY high
>>> quality FSS crew, IMHO. How many times in the past did you talk to a
>>> monotone 'crat without the slightest knowledge of (or care about)
>>> actually performing the flight he was briefing?
>> I don't think it matters. With the consolidation of FSS stations, the
>> concept mentioned at the outset of this thread about having "local
>> knowledge" is simply not going to happen in the future. I haven't
>> called a flight service station since I can't remember when. The only
>> reason I've called them in the last 10 years was to get a void time
>> clearance. Give me a line to Center and I won't even need FSS for
>> that.
>> FSS is an anachronism and needs to just be shut down and the money
>> better spent elsewhere, IMO.
>>
>> Matt
>
> Plus it is the one place that the airlines are correct in saying it is a
> service that only GA uses. And they only need a small crack to stick there
> foot in.

Yes, good point, I wasn't even thinking of that.

FSS was a great service in the pre-internet age and served well, but all
things come to an end at some point.

Matt