Busiest Soaring Operations?

[[email protected]]

Im curious as to how many "busy" operations there are in the US. and
how busy is busy? Anyone out there training more than 5 students a
month? that would be pretty incredible I think.

check out www.xwindsim.com I talked with Brad about adapting his sim
to teaching aerotow and it seemed to him like it wouldnt be to bad.
of course the demand has to be there to justify it. hes using it now
as a crosswind training device and quoted that it takes about 5
students (at 2 hours each) to justify the cost. so i guess the real
question is are there operations out there that could keep the sim
busy for 10 hrs a month?

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I talked with Brad about adapting his sim
> to teaching aerotow

While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very pessimistic
about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.

Vaughn

[[email protected]]

On Aug 1, 7:13 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> > I talked with Brad about adapting his sim
> > to teaching aerotow
>
> While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very pessimistic
> about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.
>
> Vaughn

im not thinking about it to teach stick and rudder skills. it would
be a great tool to teach pilots how to maintain position on tow.
possible could even be adapted to teach thermal centering techniques,
as well as crosswind landings. aerotow is arguably the most difficult
thing to learn for soaring pilots, particularly pilots transitioning
from powered flying with no aerobatic or formation experience. lots
of tows are spent simply trying to maintain position and there is a
lot of money to be saved by using a sim to teach this skill.

coordinated turns and all that other stick and rudder stuff is best
left for the air.

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Aug 1, 7:13 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
> wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>> > I talked with Brad about adapting his sim
>> > to teaching aerotow
>>
>> While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very
>> pessimistic
>> about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.
>>
>> Vaughn
>
> im not thinking about it to teach stick and rudder skills. it would
> be a great tool to teach pilots how to maintain position on tow.
> possible could even be adapted to teach thermal centering techniques,
> as well as crosswind landings. aerotow is arguably the most difficult
> thing to learn for soaring pilots, particularly pilots transitioning
> from powered flying with no aerobatic or formation experience. lots
> of tows are spent simply trying to maintain position and there is a
> lot of money to be saved by using a sim to teach this skill.
>
> coordinated turns and all that other stick and rudder stuff is best
> left for the air.
>

Any glider simulator can be used by an instructor as an "animated white
board" to illustrate what a maneuver should look like to the student.
Condor Competition flight Simulator can even be used to illustrate the
aerodynamics of a maneuver.

If the simulated cockpit is well set up with rudder pedals, separate spoiler
controls and a projector, there can be real value to letting a student fly
it. I'm not so sure about a desktop PC with the typical "twist the stick
for rudder" joystick.

A lot of the value is just getting the student to use his eyes correctly.
The " look here and see this" kind of lesson works well. Pausing the sim on
final approach to let the student analyze approach errors is one use.

Bill Daniels

[[email protected]]

On Aug 1, 9:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 7:13 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
> > wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> >> > I talked with Brad about adapting his sim
> >> > to teaching aerotow
>
> >> While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very
> >> pessimistic
> >> about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.
>
> >> Vaughn
>
> > im not thinking about it to teach stick and rudder skills. it would
> > be a great tool to teach pilots how to maintain position on tow.
> > possible could even be adapted to teach thermal centering techniques,
> > as well as crosswind landings. aerotow is arguably the most difficult
> > thing to learn for soaring pilots, particularly pilots transitioning
> > from powered flying with no aerobatic or formation experience. lots
> > of tows are spent simply trying to maintain position and there is a
> > lot of money to be saved by using a sim to teach this skill.
>
> > coordinated turns and all that other stick and rudder stuff is best
> > left for the air.
>
> Any glider simulator can be used by an instructor as an "animated white
> board" to illustrate what a maneuver should look like to the student.
> Condor Competition flight Simulator can even be used to illustrate the
> aerodynamics of a maneuver.
>
> If the simulated cockpit is well set up with rudder pedals, separate spoiler
> controls and a projector, there can be real value to letting a student fly
> it. I'm not so sure about a desktop PC with the typical "twist the stick
> for rudder" joystick.
>
> A lot of the value is just getting the student to use his eyes correctly.
> The " look here and see this" kind of lesson works well. Pausing the sim on
> final approach to let the student analyze approach errors is one use.
>
> Bill Daniels

precisely bill, the ability for the instructor to pause the simulation
proves very beneficial. with the instructor in control of all
variables excellent training can occur. no more counting on the
towplane to fly the profile you desire. i am seeing a lot of
possibilities with this. the question still remains though, is it
feasible for anyone out there?

[nimbusgb]

On 1 Aug, 21:27, wrote:
> Im curious as to how many "busy" operations there are in the US. and
> how busy is busy? Anyone out there training more than 5 students a
> month? that would be pretty incredible I think.
>
> check outwww.xwindsim.com I talked with Brad about adapting his sim
> to teaching aerotow and it seemed to him like it wouldnt be to bad.
> of course the demand has to be there to justify it. hes using it now
> as a crosswind training device and quoted that it takes about 5
> students (at 2 hours each) to justify the cost. so i guess the real
> question is are there operations out there that could keep the sim
> busy for 10 hrs a month?

Why not just buy a copy of condor and set up a simple cockpit. Condor
is very good at producing a lifelike simulation. Effects of controls,
tug positioning and stick & pedal co-ordination are all within scope
of condor.

http://www.soaringsim.com/

Ian M

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very
>> pessimistic
>> about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.
>>
>> Vaughn
>
> im not thinking about it to teach stick and rudder skills. it would
> be a great tool to teach pilots how to maintain position on tow.

If maintaining position on tow is not a stick & rudder skill, I guess I
don't know what is. That said, I can agree with Bill that a sim may be useful
as a "white board".

Vaughn

[Dan G]

On Aug 2, 1:13 am, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:

> While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very pessimistic
> about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.

I guess you've not used a simulator. As long as you have seperate
rudder pedals, the control co-ordination is very life-like, as is the
handling of the aircraft in general (at least as far as Condor is
concerned).

In the UK Lasham trained a pilot to almost solo standard using nothing
but a simulator. The pilot had to make the minimum number of real
launches to meet legal requirements before he really could go solo,
but he was ready for solo after just one or two real tows.


Dan

[Frank Whiteley]

On Aug 2, 7:03 am, Dan G > wrote:
> On Aug 2, 1:13 am, "Vaughn Simon" >
> wrote:
>
> > While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very pessimistic
> > about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.
>
> I guess you've not used a simulator. As long as you have seperate
> rudder pedals, the control co-ordination is very life-like, as is the
> handling of the aircraft in general (at least as far as Condor is
> concerned).
>
> In the UK Lasham trained a pilot to almost solo standard using nothing
> but a simulator. The pilot had to make the minimum number of real
> launches to meet legal requirements before he really could go solo,
> but he was ready for solo after just one or two real tows.
>
> Dan

http://www.yorksoaring.com/FlightSimulator/

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Aug 1, 9:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 7:13 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
>> > wrote:
>> >> > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>> >> > I talked with Brad about adapting his sim
>> >> > to teaching aerotow
>>
>> >> While a sim may be useful for teaching procedural skills, I am very
>> >> pessimistic
>> >> about their ability to teach stick and rudder skills.
>>
>> >> Vaughn
>>
>> > im not thinking about it to teach stick and rudder skills. it would
>> > be a great tool to teach pilots how to maintain position on tow.
>> > possible could even be adapted to teach thermal centering techniques,
>> > as well as crosswind landings. aerotow is arguably the most difficult
>> > thing to learn for soaring pilots, particularly pilots transitioning
>> > from powered flying with no aerobatic or formation experience. lots
>> > of tows are spent simply trying to maintain position and there is a
>> > lot of money to be saved by using a sim to teach this skill.
>>
>> > coordinated turns and all that other stick and rudder stuff is best
>> > left for the air.
>>
>> Any glider simulator can be used by an instructor as an "animated white
>> board" to illustrate what a maneuver should look like to the student.
>> Condor Competition flight Simulator can even be used to illustrate the
>> aerodynamics of a maneuver.
>>
>> If the simulated cockpit is well set up with rudder pedals, separate
>> spoiler
>> controls and a projector, there can be real value to letting a student
>> fly
>> it. I'm not so sure about a desktop PC with the typical "twist the stick
>> for rudder" joystick.
>>
>> A lot of the value is just getting the student to use his eyes correctly.
>> The " look here and see this" kind of lesson works well. Pausing the sim
>> on
>> final approach to let the student analyze approach errors is one use.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>
> precisely bill, the ability for the instructor to pause the simulation
> proves very beneficial. with the instructor in control of all
> variables excellent training can occur. no more counting on the
> towplane to fly the profile you desire. i am seeing a lot of
> possibilities with this. the question still remains though, is it
> feasible for anyone out there?
>

I think it's worth keep an eye on the new hobby of "cockpit building".
These folks are constantly getting better and better at building extremely
attractive simulated cockpits. For example, you can now buy instruments
that a PC can drive in synchronization with the simulator software. Condor
supports a second LCD screen with simulated instruments that, when covered
with a template, is a very reasonable facsimile of a glider instrument
panel. The technology is advancing very rapidly.

It is easy to buy the components that let you use real cockpit controls to
create inputs to the simulator software. Some have used old glider nose
sections which are very realistic. Others have built plywood mockups that
work just as well.

What's the advantage? While a simulator will never completely replace
actual fight time, it can be used for many aspects of flight training.
There's always the classic simulator advantage of doing things so dangerous
that you would never try them in an actual aircraft - spinning on the turn
to final is one example.

If nothing else, using simulators keeps up the tempo of training in bad
winter weather.

Bill Daniels

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

wrote:
>Im curious as to how many "busy" operations there are in the US. and
>how busy is busy? Anyone out there training more than 5 students a
>month? that would be pretty incredible I think.
>

Our Instructor Kenny Price always has a full schedule at Williams Soaring.
Certainly way more than 5/mo.
He trained the Air Force Academy soaring instructors to fly their new Duo
Discus fleet (DuoDiscusses? Discusi?). Kenny was also recognized by the SSA
as 2005 most active instructor Region 11 and the US.
http://www.soaringnet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1174

We are quite proud of our boy.

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[fred]

On Aug 2, 10:49 am, "Kloudy via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote:
> wrote:
> >Im curious as to how many "busy" operations there are in the US. and
> >how busy is busy? Anyone out there training more than 5 students a
> >month? that would be pretty incredible I think.
>
> Our Instructor Kenny Price always has a full schedule at Williams Soaring.
> Certainly way more than 5/mo.
> He trained the Air Force Academy soaring instructors to fly their new Duo
> Discus fleet (DuoDiscusses? Discusi?). Kenny was also recognized by the SSA
> as 2005 most active instructor Region 11 and the US.http://www.soaringnet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1174
>
> We are quite proud of our boy.
>
> --
> Message posted viahttp://www.aviationkb.com
Thanks for getting the discussion back on track..."Busy" operations.
In 1975, Great Western was conducting an average of 300 flights per
week or more. I have a picture of 50 gliders waiting for launch.
Now the average is about 100 per week (Year round). Many things have
happened and customers ask "why".
We would double our business (or better) if we could clone Kenny Price
and Dale Masters...so I guess that one answer is a shortage of good
flight instructors willing to work full-time, year round.
At 100 flights per week, are we considered "busy"?
Hopefully, other operators will get involved in this discussion and
share ideas. Fred.