Question for you contest fliers...

[[email protected]]

How do you guys deal with turn points with different radii in a "turn
area" task? I've been playing with my 302/303 and there doesn't seem
to be a way to set a different radius for each turn point. It would be
nice to get an "arrival" message for each turn point automatically. Do
you guys have to verify cylinder entry manually in this case (for the
302/303)? Or is there another way to utilize this feature of the
flight computer in a task with mixed radii?


Thanks,
Dave

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

wrote:
> How do you guys deal with turn points with different radii in a "turn
> area" task? I've been playing with my 302/303 and there doesn't seem
> to be a way to set a different radius for each turn point. It would be
> nice to get an "arrival" message for each turn point automatically. Do
> you guys have to verify cylinder entry manually in this case (for the
> 302/303)? Or is there another way to utilize this feature of the
> flight computer in a task with mixed radii?

The 303 doesn't support turn area tasks. Not only do you have the issue
of differing cylinder radii, but you also have to determine how far to
go into the cylinder before you turn, which is difficult to do without
proper support from your flight computer or a PDA.

My suggestion is that you get an iPAQ 38xx from Ebay or Craigslist, they
typically go for around $100. You'll need a cable that will connect the
iPAQ to the 302 along with a mount, available from Craggy Aero or
Cumulus Soaring Supplies. Grab some free glide software like GPS_LOG or
XCSoar (or splurge and get WinPilot, SeeYou Mobile, etc.), and you'll be
good to go...

Marc

[5Z]

If you don't plan to use a PDA with moving map, then the best option
is to use a paper checklist to note your arrival at each turn. You
will be navigating to the center of the turn area, so as soon as the
distance to go indicates less than the radius, check it off on the
list. You must still consider how deep to go and which side of
center, etc... So continue displaying distance to this turn, until
you decide to go to the next turn. This will help as you approach the
back edge of the cylinder as well.

But the key is that if the GPS displays a distance LESS than the
radius, you are there. Having an audio beep is really redundant in
turn area tasks especially since we are talking about fairly large
areas. When flying an assigned task, the audio arrival notification
makes a bit more sense, as the airspace could be a bit crowded with
gliders due to the smaller radius.

-Tom

[Ray Lovinggood]

Dave,

Sometimes, you will not be navigating to the center,
but to a far edge of the circle. Maybe your route
to that far edge will take you through the center and
maybe not.

I use a pda running Glide Navigator II, and you can
move your turnpoint from the circle center to wherever
you need it within the circle. Then, you are navigating
to that point rather to the circle center. If the
303 doesn't support Turn Area Tasks, you might consider
as others have mentioned and get a pda. Another free
software not mentioned is Soaring Pilot http://www.soaringpilot.or
g/ made to run on the Palm operating system, but with
the purchase of 'StyleTap' software, it will run on
the Windows CE platform.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 04:18 06 August 2007, 5z wrote:
>If you don't plan to use a PDA with moving map, then
>the best option
>is to use a paper checklist to note your arrival at
>each turn. You
>will be navigating to the center of the turn area,
>so as soon as the
>distance to go indicates less than the radius, check
>it off on the
>list. You must still consider how deep to go and which
>side of
>center, etc... So continue displaying distance to
>this turn, until
>you decide to go to the next turn. This will help
>as you approach the
>back edge of the cylinder as well.
>
>But the key is that if the GPS displays a distance
>LESS than the
>radius, you are there. Having an audio beep is really
>redundant in
>turn area tasks especially since we are talking about
>fairly large
>areas. When flying an assigned task, the audio arrival
>notification
>makes a bit more sense, as the airspace could be a
>bit crowded with
>gliders due to the smaller radius.
>
>-Tom
>
>

[kirk.stant]

On Aug 5, 7:44 pm, wrote:
> How do you guys deal with turn points with different radii in a "turn
> area" task? I've been playing with my 302/303 and there doesn't seem
> to be a way to set a different radius for each turn point. It would be
> nice to get an "arrival" message for each turn point automatically. Do
> you guys have to verify cylinder entry manually in this case (for the
> 302/303)? Or is there another way to utilize this feature of the
> flight computer in a task with mixed radii?
>
> Thanks,
> Dave

What hasn't been discussed yet is how to manage the "distance
remaining vs time to finish" equation in a Turn Area Task - which is
the really big impact of the the variable areas, really. Since these
are all time-limited tasks, it becomes extremely important to be able
to "what-if" (both before the flight, based on a guesstimate of the
day's conditions) and in real time (as the reality of the day's
condition becomes apparent!) the time to complete the task given the
available area remaining, so as to finish just over the minimum time,
if possible.

Unfortunately, this is probably only practicable with a good PDA setup
(and any of those mentioned will do it), or an expensive glide
computer like the SN10.

And even then it can be really interesting, especially on a weak day -
there's nothing like trying to figure out time-speed-distance problems
in the cockpit when the lift is less than a knot and you are below
2000' agl most of the time!

Funny, how straight speed tasks, that only require a simple GPS to
complete, are not used in Sports class - instead the emphasis is on
time-limited tasks that really require some serious computational
hardware and software to be competitive...

Anyway - solution? Inexpensive PDA, free software, mouse GPS (or
connect to existing 302), battery pack (if needed). Can probably be
done for $300 or less. Set it up right and you can move it from
glider to glider.

Plus you get the benefits of a moving map with landable fields - a
huge safety feature and confidence builder, IMO.

Good luck,

Kirk
66

[toad]

On Aug 6, 1:23 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:

> Funny, how straight speed tasks, that only require a simple GPS to
> complete, are not used in Sports class - instead the emphasis is on
> time-limited tasks that really require some serious computational
> hardware and software to be competitive...

Of course the "bring what you own" US sports class prevents good
competition
on straight speed tasks. Perhaps if a sailplane had been chosen for
the world class,
instead of a streamlined brick, we could have good head to head races
for cheap :-)

Todd Smith
3S

[J a c k]

toad wrote:

> Perhaps if a sailplane had been chosen for
> the world class, instead of a streamlined brick,
> we could have good head to head races for cheap


And this has prevented you from competing in world class?


Jack

[toad]

On Aug 6, 3:07 pm, J a c k > wrote:
> toad wrote:
> > Perhaps if a sailplane had been chosen for
> > the world class, instead of a streamlined brick,
>
> > we could have good head to head races for cheap
>
> And this has prevented you from competing in world class?
>
> Jack

Yes,

If a glider that had met my required specs when I was looking to buy a
glider had been selected as the world class glider, I would probably
have bought one. And my specs were not to extravagant, I ended up
buying a Grob 102.

Todd Smith
3S

[kirk.stant]

Warning, extreme topic creep!

When I started learning to race in the Arizona Soaring Association's
year-long contest series, we still carried cameras, used start gates
and finish lines, but were starting to use handeld GPSs to navigate.
Tasks were mainly assigned speed tasks, with occasional MATs or PST
when the weather was iffy, and speeds were handicapped.

The trick was that we separated the gliders into performance groups,
and tasked accordingly:

A class was full-up racers, and could compete wet if desired.

B class was current or just over the hill racers (say, std Cirrus and
G-102 on up) but had to be dry. Also new guys with fancy toys but
little racing experience. They were tasked on about 75% of the A
class task.

C class was for 1-26, Blaniks, G-109s, Pioneers, etc; anything that
wanted to race but didn't quite have the speed to fly the longer
tasks. Again, their task was a percentage of the A class.

We had weekends with bigger grids than some regionals I've been to!

Personal opinion: with small numbers of less experienced racers, the
simpler the task the better. In fact, leeching is a good thing when
you are trying to learn! I think area tasks can be too demanding for
a newby, if you really try to fly them right. They should only be
used as a last resort, for a specific reason: Iffy weather, too many
competitors in the same piece of sky, etc. The good old speed task
lets the pilot concentrate on going fast, or watching other pilots go
fast and trying to copy what they are doi

But I'm apparently a minority view (and used to that!).

Kirk
66

[Rick Culbertson]

Dave,

I fly with a 302 (love it) but I do have a PDA with GNll software & WP
software (I just can't make up my mind), if you make the investment
you will never regret it and wonder why you didn't do it before. The
navigational and pilot comfort advantages of having the moving map
software is huge, with all the navigation goodies mentioned by others
and more. I have no direct connection but if you're unsure how to go
about picking up the proper PDA system I suggest you contact Paul
Remedy at Cumulus Soaring, he is very helpful and professional.

RC - 21

On Aug 5, 9:26 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> wrote:
> > How do you guys deal with turn points with different radii in a "turn
> > area" task? I've been playing with my 302/303 and there doesn't seem
> > to be a way to set a different radius for each turn point. It would be
> > nice to get an "arrival" message for each turn point automatically. Do
> > you guys have to verify cylinder entry manually in this case (for the
> > 302/303)? Or is there another way to utilize this feature of the
> > flight computer in a task with mixed radii?
>
> The 303 doesn't support turn area tasks. Not only do you have the issue
> of differing cylinder radii, but you also have to determine how far to
> go into the cylinder before you turn, which is difficult to do without
> proper support from your flight computer or a PDA.
>
> My suggestion is that you get an iPAQ 38xx from Ebay or Craigslist, they
> typically go for around $100. You'll need a cable that will connect the
> iPAQ to the 302 along with a mount, available from Craggy Aero or
> Cumulus Soaring Supplies. Grab some free glide software like GPS_LOG or
> XCSoar (or splurge and get WinPilot, SeeYou Mobile, etc.), and you'll be
> good to go...
>
> Marc

[[email protected]]

On Aug 6, 3:22 pm, toad > wrote:
> On Aug 6, 3:07 pm, J a c k > wrote:
>
> > toad wrote:
> > > Perhaps if a sailplane had been chosen for
> > > the world class, instead of a streamlined brick,
>
> > > we could have good head to head races for cheap
>
> > And this has prevented you from competing in world class?
>
> > Jack
>
> Yes,
>
> If a glider that had met my required specs when I was looking to buy a
> glider had been selected as the world class glider, I would probably
> have bought one. And my specs were not to extravagant, I ended up
> buying a Grob 102.
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S


The new one?
Congratulations.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the input guys.

I already have a PDA with SeeYou on it, but haven't gotten around to
installing it in the ship. My feeling is that the cockpit will be a
tad busy with the addition of the PDA. Just to give you some
background, this ship is new to me and I'm a low timer. I figure I can
use the 302/303 to get my x-country legs under me and shoot for some
badges. Once I'm comfortable and confident enough, I'd like to try a
regional contest or two, but that's gonna be a while.


Thanks again,
Dave

[Marc Ramsey]

wrote:
> Thanks for the input guys.
>
> I already have a PDA with SeeYou on it, but haven't gotten around to
> installing it in the ship. My feeling is that the cockpit will be a
> tad busy with the addition of the PDA. Just to give you some
> background, this ship is new to me and I'm a low timer. I figure I can
> use the 302/303 to get my x-country legs under me and shoot for some
> badges. Once I'm comfortable and confident enough, I'd like to try a
> regional contest or two, but that's gonna be a while.

A 303 is fine for basic cross country and badge flights. However,
having a moving map available will increase your comfort level and
reduce your overall workload. A moving map provides continuous feedback
as to your location and reachable land out options, which you won't get
from a 303 alone...

Marc

[kirk.stant]

Think of the PDA moving map as a sectional that you don't have to fold
and unfold inflight, or try to find out where on it you really are, or
try to measure the distance to the nearest airport. Used that way
(and SeeYou Mobile can be easily configured to be just that - a moving
map with landable fields highlighted) it actually lowers the workload
in the cockpit.

The real trick (and this applies to all the magic gizmo's we now have
in our plastic toys) is to ignore them and look outside until you
really need the information on the gizmo, then just use it long enough
to get that info.

The danger is in spending too much time playing with the magic, until
you look up and realize that it's time to put the gear down!

Kirk