When do politicians rate a TFR?

[Jay Honeck]

In an amazing (disgusting, IMHO) display of political hackery (Yep,
that's a word, now) the State of Iowa is being flooded with every
potential presidential candidate, despite the fact that the election
is not until November -- of 2008!

Iowa City in particular has been targeted by Hillary and Obama, to the
point where I wouldn't be surprised if they applied for residency. It
seems like they have been here every other week -- and now the
Republican candidates are following suit.

Having been unpleasantly surprised by a TFR back when John Edwards was
running as a VP candidate (I was on the ground, thankfully, but
couldn't get to my plane, thanks to the SS), we now live in fear of
pop-up TFRs here on a daily basis.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any information on precisely
whom is eligible for a TFR. Is this a rule that's written down
anywhere?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> In an amazing (disgusting, IMHO) display of political hackery (Yep,
> that's a word, now) the State of Iowa is being flooded with every
> potential presidential candidate, despite the fact that the election
> is not until November -- of 2008!
>
> Iowa City in particular has been targeted by Hillary and Obama, to the
> point where I wouldn't be surprised if they applied for residency. It
> seems like they have been here every other week -- and now the
> Republican candidates are following suit.
>
> Having been unpleasantly surprised by a TFR back when John Edwards was
> running as a VP candidate (I was on the ground, thankfully, but
> couldn't get to my plane, thanks to the SS), we now live in fear of
> pop-up TFRs here on a daily basis.
>
> Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any information on precisely
> whom is eligible for a TFR. Is this a rule that's written down
> anywhere?

I doubt you'll see any candidate TFRs until there are Republican and
Democratic nominies. That is unless there is a specific threat. Though I did
hear something about Obama getting SS protection already.

[RL Anderson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

Hi Jay,

> In an amazing (disgusting, IMHO) display of political hackery (Yep,
> that's a word, now) the State of Iowa is being flooded with every
> potential presidential candidate, despite the fact that the election
> is not until November -- of 2008!
>
> Iowa City in particular has been targeted by Hillary and Obama, to the
> point where I wouldn't be surprised if they applied for residency. It
> seems like they have been here every other week -- and now the
> Republican candidates are following suit.
>
> Having been unpleasantly surprised by a TFR back when John Edwards was
> running as a VP candidate (I was on the ground, thankfully, but
> couldn't get to my plane, thanks to the SS), we now live in fear of
> pop-up TFRs here on a daily basis.
>
> Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any information on precisely
> whom is eligible for a TFR. Is this a rule that's written down
> anywhere?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Don't know if this will answer your question specifically, but I was in
the Air Force until Jan 1, 1995. Sometime during my career (I was a
"comm puke"), and my memory may be a bit faulty on this item, I remember
receiving some kind of briefing stating that until the completion of the
conventions, the USSS provides some kind of "low level" security for
declared Presidential candidates. Once the conventions are over, and
the "top four" have been selected, then each candidate receives a
"Vice-Presidential Sized" security detail. Given our "Post 9/11"
situation my guess is that when Edwards arrived in your backyard he also
brought a "VP TFR" with him. In addition it is my understanding that if
a security threat has been made against the US House Speaker, and/or the
President Pro-Tem of the US Senate, a "VP TFR" could apply to them as well.

I don't blame you for your TFR concerns. Even though I do not fly
myself, I know when Bush arrives here in Seattle some of the local
pilots I know cringe. IMO a 30NM TFR is more than excessive. However,
it looks like we are all stuck with it for the time being. Regarding
the Tacoma/Seattle area, CJ, and some of the other folks in this group
can provide a better local perspective than I can. But depending on the
time of year (WX conditions mainly), and given our terrain, flying in
this area can be a real big pain if "The Prez" arrives for a visit.
During this "campaign season" I hope that "Bush and Company" stay away
from IOW. Just keep your eye on the TFR situation and hopefully you
won't get screwed over during the campaigns.

Rick
KPLU

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 05:58:46 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in om>:

>
>Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any information on precisely
>whom is eligible for a TFR. Is this a rule that's written down
>anywhere?

Not that I'm aware of. You might ask AOPA.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/notams.html
Presidential/VIP movement TFRs
Notice to pilots: Presidential/VIP movement TFRs can be issued
with little advance notice. This list is not necessarily complete.
Pilots must check with flight service for ALL applicable notams
immediately prior to flight. This page generally includes
Presidential/VIP movement notams that are 5-nm radius or larger or
impact one or more airports.

Until further notice: St. Michaels, Maryland
August 4-7: Hagerstown/Thurmont, Maryland
August 8-18: Jackson, Wyoming
Anticipated - August 9-12: Kennebunkport, Maine

Or you could contact the FAA with your question:
http://www.faa.gov/contact/

But I suspect the answer lies with the Transportation Security
Administration: http://contact.tsa.dhs.gov/default.aspx

TFR web sites:
http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html
http://airspace.nifc.gov/mapping/nifc/index.cfm

FARs are particularly vague about the criteria used to establish TFRs
for political dignitaries:


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=f8fe0f2b995993f4c29d7e4a54f73c95&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.23&idno=14
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B—Flight Rules
General

§ 91.139 Emergency air traffic rules.
(a) This section prescribes a process for utilizing Notices to
Airmen (NOTAMs) to advise of the issuance and operations under
emergency air traffic rules and regulations and designates the
official who is authorized to issue NOTAMs on behalf of the
Administrator in certain matters under this section.

(b) Whenever the Administrator determines that an emergency
condition exists, or will exist, relating to the FAA's ability to
operate the air traffic control system and during which normal
flight operations under this chapter cannot be conducted
consistent with the required levels of safety and efficiency—

(1) The Administrator issues an immediately effective air traffic
rule or regulation in response to that emergency condition; and

(2) The Administrator or the Associate Administrator for Air
Traffic may utilize the NOTAM system to provide notification of
the issuance of the rule or regulation.

Those NOTAMs communicate information concerning the rules and
regulations that govern flight operations, the use of navigation
facilities, and designation of that airspace in which the rules
and regulations apply.

(c) When a NOTAM has been issued under this section, no person may
operate an aircraft, or other device governed by the regulation
concerned, within the designated airspace except in accordance
with the authorizations, terms, and conditions prescribed in the
regulation covered by the NOTAM.





http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=f8fe0f2b995993f4c29d7e4a54f73c95&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.24&idno=14
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B—Flight Rules
General

§ 91.141 Flight restrictions in the proximity of the
Presidential and other parties.

No person may operate an aircraft over or in the vicinity of any
area to be visited or traveled by the President, the Vice
President, or other public figures contrary to the restrictions
established by the Administrator and published in a Notice to
Airmen (NOTAM).

[Jeff[_1_]]

....stuff clipped..

>>> IMO a 30NM TFR is more than excessive.

Well, IMO, I think the 30 NM TFR is a joke. If someone REALLY wanted to do
damage to a building/person/event, 30 miles isn't going to keep a jet
traveling at 6.5 miles per minute at bay for long. Now, my
C172...ok...they've got 15 minutes to shoot me down before my plane bounces
off the wall and kills no one but me :)

It amazes me that most of the terror deterrents seem to be in the area of
aviation. It's like we can't come up with any possible ideas of how a
terrorist could screw with us if it hasn't happened to us already. I know
there are some "big" things, like nuke plant security, etc. But what about
the gas truck driving beside my house?

We can't cover all our bases, so I guess they just cover the popular ones.

But I digress.....I went flying this weekend (that should cover the avaition
requirement to post in this forum :) ).

jf

[Mxsmanic]

"Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > writes:

> Well, IMO, I think the 30 NM TFR is a joke. If someone REALLY wanted to do
> damage to a building/person/event, 30 miles isn't going to keep a jet
> traveling at 6.5 miles per minute at bay for long. Now, my
> C172...ok...they've got 15 minutes to shoot me down before my plane bounces
> off the wall and kills no one but me :)

There are plenty of missiles that can fly that distance in 30 seconds or so,
and they don't need to be fired from an aircraft. Currently there is no
really effective defense against missile attacks for aircraft, which is a
constant source of stress for a lot of people. Apparently they believe that
if they don't talk about it, it won't happen.

> It amazes me that most of the terror deterrents seem to be in the area of
> aviation.

It sounds like people are making the classic mistake of protecting against
risks they know and think they understand, while ignoring risks they don't
know or don't understand. So they worry about the potential threat from a
slow moving unarmed Cessna rather than the threat from a ground-based,
shoulder-mounted missile launcher.

> We can't cover all our bases, so I guess they just cover the popular ones.

Yup. See above.

[[email protected]]

Jeff <jfranks1971 minus > wrote:
> ...stuff clipped..

> >>> IMO a 30NM TFR is more than excessive.

> Well, IMO, I think the 30 NM TFR is a joke. If someone REALLY wanted to do
> damage to a building/person/event, 30 miles isn't going to keep a jet
> traveling at 6.5 miles per minute at bay for long. Now, my
> C172...ok...they've got 15 minutes to shoot me down before my plane bounces
> off the wall and kills no one but me :)

> It amazes me that most of the terror deterrents seem to be in the area of
> aviation. It's like we can't come up with any possible ideas of how a
> terrorist could screw with us if it hasn't happened to us already. I know
> there are some "big" things, like nuke plant security, etc. But what about
> the gas truck driving beside my house?

> We can't cover all our bases, so I guess they just cover the popular ones.

> But I digress.....I went flying this weekend (that should cover the avaition
> requirement to post in this forum :) ).

An M252 81mm mortar is 56 inches long, weighes about 90 pounds, has a
maximum range of 3 1/2 miles and can fire 33 rounds in a minute.

How much damage do you think you could do to a VIP event in the space of
a couple of minutes?

No airplane required.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > wrote in message
...
> ...stuff clipped..
>
>>>> IMO a 30NM TFR is more than excessive.
>
> Well, IMO, I think the 30 NM TFR is a joke. If someone REALLY wanted to
> do damage to a building/person/event, 30 miles isn't going to keep a jet
> traveling at 6.5 miles per minute at bay for long. Now, my
> C172...ok...they've got 15 minutes to shoot me down before my plane
> bounces off the wall and kills no one but me :)
>
> It amazes me that most of the terror deterrents seem to be in the area of
> aviation. It's like we can't come up with any possible ideas of how a
> terrorist could screw with us if it hasn't happened to us already. I know
> there are some "big" things, like nuke plant security, etc. But what
> about the gas truck driving beside my house?
>
> We can't cover all our bases, so I guess they just cover the popular ones.

Actually, from the public's perspective, they just cover the ones that
impact a select few "filthy rich" people (AKA pilots). This has two benefits
to the security folks:

1) It shows that they are doing something. Never mind that the threat they
are doing something about isn't likely to be the real threat.

2) Since 99% of the population isn't adversely impacted by TFR's, the TFR's
are a great way to *do something* without making many voters mad.

KB

>
> But I digress.....I went flying this weekend (that should cover the
> avaition requirement to post in this forum :) ).
>
> jf
>

[Blueskies]

>
> Having been unpleasantly surprised by a TFR back when John Edwards was
> running as a VP candidate (I was on the ground, thankfully, but
> couldn't get to my plane, thanks to the SS), we now live in fear of
> pop-up TFRs here on a daily basis.
>
> Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any information on precisely
> whom is eligible for a TFR. Is this a rule that's written down
> anywhere?
> --
> Jay Honeck


Just keep that ol' 496 fired up. It does the TFR stuff on it also, right?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> "Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > writes:
>
>> Well, IMO, I think the 30 NM TFR is a joke. If someone REALLY wanted
>> to do damage to a building/person/event, 30 miles isn't going to keep
>> a jet traveling at 6.5 miles per minute at bay for long. Now, my
>> C172...ok...they've got 15 minutes to shoot me down before my plane
>> bounces off the wall and kills no one but me :)
>
> There are plenty of missiles that can fly that distance in 30 seconds
> or so, and they don't need to be fired from an aircraft. Currently
> there is no really effective defense against missile attacks for
> aircraft, which is a constant source of stress for a lot of people.
> Apparently they believe that if they don't talk about it, it won't
> happen.
>

Yes, there is, so you're wrong yet again


Bertie

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Jeff wrote:
> Now, my
> C172...ok...they've got 15 minutes to shoot me down before my plane bounces
> off the wall and kills no one but me :)

Remember the kid who flew the 172 into a building in Florida, just after
9/11.

Besides killing himself, I think he messed up somebody's desk.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 07:39:58 -0400, B A R R Y >
wrote in >:

>Jeff wrote:
>> Now, my
>> C172...ok...they've got 15 minutes to shoot me down before my plane bounces
>> off the wall and kills no one but me :)
>
>Remember the kid who flew the 172 into a building in Florida, just after
>9/11.
>
>Besides killing himself, I think he messed up somebody's desk.



http://www.generalaviationnews.com/editorial/articledetail.lasso?-token.key=12222&-token.src=index&-nothing
For the groups trying to defend general aviation from more
stringent regulations, these and similar actions can be explained
to some degree by citing that the typical general aviation
airplane cannot carry a load large enough to be a danger. But a
Cessna Citation — that's a different story. With a useful load of
more than 7,000 pounds, that size airplane can't be explained away
so easily. ...

[Don Tabor]

On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 05:58:46 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote:

>Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any information on precisely
>whom is eligible for a TFR. Is this a rule that's written down
>anywhere?

TFR's are established when a politician is present who, as a matter of
principle, we prefer not be attacked, but there is reason to believe
someone might find it worthwhile to do so.

Sometimes I suspect we would better let nature take its course, but
then I have my coffee and regain my faith in the democratic process.

Don


Virginia - the only State with a flag rated
"R" for partial nudity and graphic violence.