Attracting the kids

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

On another topic, bagmaker wrote:

>Mr Daniels is right on the money, youngsters now have
>a new >phone every 2 years, a new car every 3 years,
>a mortgage >no-one can really afford, 3 ipods, a PDA,
>$250 sunglasses
>and a wardrobe of jeans the cost of which would support
>a
>small african country.
>
>Do you honestly think they will be enticed into gliding
>if
>offered an antique 2-33?

And are those honestly the type you want to entice
into gliding? Or are they inclined to get as much
from a club as they can, and contribute as little as
possible?

Another consideration - does your particular club exist
to provide everything for everybody? Or does it, more
like my own, provide the cheapest entry into soaring,
including cross-country trips, and then leave it to
the individuals to move themselves into higher performance
gliders? The second approach is a lot cheaper than
the first.

Jim Beckman

[nimbusgb]

On 15 Aug, 15:00, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> The second approach is a lot cheaper than the first.
> Jim Beckman

And quite plainly does not work!

[Bill Daniels]

"Jim Beckman" > wrote in message
...
> On another topic, bagmaker wrote:
>
>>Mr Daniels is right on the money, youngsters now have
>>a new >phone every 2 years, a new car every 3 years,
>>a mortgage >no-one can really afford, 3 ipods, a PDA,
>>$250 sunglasses
>>and a wardrobe of jeans the cost of which would support
>>a
>>small african country.
>>
>>Do you honestly think they will be enticed into gliding
>>if
>>offered an antique 2-33?
>
> And are those honestly the type you want to entice
> into gliding? Or are they inclined to get as much
> from a club as they can, and contribute as little as
> possible?
>
> Another consideration - does your particular club exist
> to provide everything for everybody? Or does it, more
> like my own, provide the cheapest entry into soaring,
> including cross-country trips, and then leave it to
> the individuals to move themselves into higher performance
> gliders? The second approach is a lot cheaper than
> the first.
>
> Jim Beckman
>


Let me get this strait, youth is very underrepresented and pilot numbers are
crashing globally and you want to be choosy? Any kid that wants to fly
gliders needs to be encouraged as much as possible, bling or no bling.

Kids, even more than adults, will know the difference between a 2-33 and
anything else. They will want to impress their friends that they are flying
a 'cool' glider. 2-33's are VERY uncool.

The typical 'cheap' club spends heavily on aero tows and cuts corners on
gliders. How dumb is that? If you divert 3/4's of the expenditures on
aero tows to gliders, new glass gets afordable. A winch really earns money
for a club while a tug sucks it down a black hole. Earn money with a winch,
spend it on new gliders.

About the instructor shortage; Instructors like nice gliders too. I know
many instructors, myself included, who will not instruct in 2-33's. It's
too dangerous. Sitting with your spine vertical over an unsprung wheel will
sooner or later result in back injury. Mine is permanently sore. Then
there's the fact that the 2-33 wing blocks your view into turns from back
cockpit. Buy a modern glass trainer and and a winch - instructors will come
out of the woodwork.

Bill Daniels
>

[toad]

< sniped good points on winch>
> Earn money with a winch, spend it on new gliders.

I got 2 questions about setting up a winch operation.

1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?

I have been looking for a operation that I can learn to winch
with,
and 1 club in Texas seems the only place that I could do it.

2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?

Todd Smith
3S

[Bill Daniels]

"toad" > wrote in message
s.com...
>< sniped good points on winch>
>> Earn money with a winch, spend it on new gliders.
>
> I got 2 questions about setting up a winch operation.
>
> 1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?
>
> I have been looking for a operation that I can learn to winch
> with,
> and 1 club in Texas seems the only place that I could do it.

There are an increasing number of clubs in the US using winches. The
Southern California area is quite active - see Region 12 newsletter. There
are at least three clubs in Texas using winches - In Houston, Odessa and, I
think, San Antonio. Prescott, AZ uses a winch. I'm sure there are many
more.
>
> 2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
> glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?

Typically, you can expect 40% of the starting cable length in no-wind
conditions. A highly optimized launch using Spectra/Dyneema can get 50%.
So, 2000 feet AGL will require a 4000 - 5000 foot runway. Launches into a
wind will be higher.

Gliders with less than 30:1 L/D or those with poorly placed CG hooks will
suffer lower launches - above 30:1 there's not much difference between
gliders. 2-33's with only a nose hook are not well suited for winch launch.

There are a number of winch qualified instructors, myself included, who will
travel to new winch sites to help get them started.

Bill Daniels

[Brian[_1_]]

> 1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?

Where in the US are you? There are a couple locations in the Northwest
where you can get Ground Launch Endorsements.

> 2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
> glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?

Most of my Winch launching was don on about 4000 feet of cable.
Launches were between 800-1200feet. Which is great for training. (Wnd
conditions can vary the alititude siginficantly)

I have done AutoTows out in the desert where about 2 miles and 3000
feet of cable will get you 2000 feet

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[toad]

Guys,

I live in the Northeast US. To do my personal training at a location
that far away, I would need a commercial type operation where I could
do an intensive course. If you know of any that do that, please post
specific names.

The land required is the biggest problem here in the east. Land is
too expensive and too crowded to get a 5000ft piece of land bought and
turned into an airport. Unless you are a long drive from any large
population centers.


I do believe that for soaring to grow, it needs to be more exciting
(for the newbie) and cheaper.
Todd
3S

[Frank Whiteley]

On Aug 15, 9:03 am, toad > wrote:


> I got 2 questions about setting up a winch operation.
>
> 1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?
>
> I have been looking for a operation that I can learn to winch
> with,
> and 1 club in Texas seems the only place that I could do it.
>
The problem is that insurance precludes 'temporary' memberships in
clubs. However, some clubs have associate and long distance
memberships at reduced rates. Although it's not entirely clear, I
think one club may have lost their 30% SSA discount due to advertising
temporary memberships (AIG sees that type of activity making a club an
FBO) for winch training. There is some talk of possibly winching at
Moriarty on a commercial basis.

Finger Lakes has a long distance and an associate membership. Contact
Tom Roberts and see what's available. (585) 746-1642,

Philadelphia Glider Council is a bit more expensive without the other
membership options, but a bit closer.

> 2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
> glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?
>
It depends. I've flown from UK clubs that were located on ridge tops
where a 600-800 foot launch was enough. I've also flown from a ridge
bottom site in Wales where 1500 feet was marginal to reaching the
ridge and returning unless there was at least 20mph wind against the
ridge (assuring ridge lift). Those winch runs were on the order of
2500-3500 feet long. Flat land sites may require more length if the
wind direction is inconsistent. Every 5kts of wind is effectively
several hundred feet of length. Our club site is 5500msl and we get
one or two wind shears and convergence zone migrations during the
day. This sometimes forces us to restage the winch one or twice or
even three times during a long winch day. We have a mile fence to
fence, but generally use about a 4400-4500 foot run, as it takes time
and manpower to push the gliders back to the fence. Staging with the
shorter run, we can land back, hook up, and go. We use a single drum
and can just hang two trainers when there's no lift but minor headwind
and a good crew. If it's soarable, about 85-90% of the launches will
hook a thermal. Some get caught if the sky cycles and land back. If
conditions are good, we've managed 2700agl about three times with our
Blaniks and Grobs. We use 3/16" 7/7 galv aircraft steel wire rope
(read heavy).

If the site will only support launches to 1500-1600agl when conditions
are good due to limited length, then the winch rope media doesn't
matter much. That is, larger diameters of cheaper synthetics might be
used or twisted/solid wire. For example, Finger Lakes is currently
using 5/32" dacron. It's lighter than steel, but the diameter means
more cross section in the wind. Even at the diameter, I suspect it's
a bit weaker than desirable. A New Zealand club uses 10mm
polypropylene, thicker still and stretchy. They've modified their
launch method to use the stretch and recoil and get 1500agl from a
3300ft run. So rope diameter and media don't matter too much if
1500ft is the limit due to length. Solid wire had no stretch recoil,
but requires some special considerations. For example the bending
radius is 60 times the diameter to avoid fatiguing, so larger rollers
are usually needed. It also tends to have a memory from the winding
and recoils as a result. Breaks can result massive snarl ups and a
large safety zone is needed to avoid possible injury. That said,
Prescott Soaring in Arizona uses a 6000ft run and gets lauches to
2000ft and more. Solid wire is cheaper and easy to repair but must be
used with more caution. It works well with reverse pulleys also,
given the space.

7/7 steel wire rope is generally used in 3/16" and 5/32" diameters,
though 5/32" is often hard to source, resulting is higher costs from
shipping. 5000ft of 3/16" weighs over 300lbs and 2-33's don't have
enough elevator to overcome much of the weight and get about the same
height on a 4000ft run as a 5000ft run. Grobs, Larks, and Blaniks can
lift a lot more weight and do better, but generally 1800-2200agl is
achieved when conditions are good. We did use a 1000ft piece of
untreated spectra on the end of our steel wire rope for a few hundred
launches and immediately got 200-400ft higher on each launch. That's
200ft higher with the 2-33, and 300-400ft higher with the Grob, Lark,
and Blanik L-23. That piece of spectra was not like the spectra's in
more general use on winches in Europe and elsewhere. Steel is harder
to work with, but relatively cheap, and somewhat more dangerous do to
it's inertia when moving. Breaks may also cause minor damage to the
winch and to the steel. 7/7 steel wire rope is a twisted product and
under load untwists, so it has some recoil when it breaks under
load. Kinks eventually turn into breaks.

New on the winching scene are Spectra type ropes. They are as strong
or stronger than steel for a given diameter at 1/6 to 1/7 the weight.
They do have low melting points, so winch design must take that into
consideration. They are easily spliced, don't stretch and have no
recoil. They are highly UV tolerant. Overall they are much safer to
use and give better results. They really come into their own on long
winch runs, that is, greater than about 4200ft. The longer the run,
the better. My club is looking at spectra products, but the cost is a
factor. However, 25% higher launches can command a 20% higher launch
charge to offset the cost. But if winch launches approach 50% of an
aero tow cost, that will dampen interest. IMVHO, they shouldn't be
more than 33% of an aero tow. My estimate is that 100% spectra
launches at my site would consistently produce 2200-2500agl launches
in good conditions. Good meaning 5-10kts headwind, temperatures under
85F. Hotter and less wind will reduce things. YMMV depending on
winch design and power.

Bill Daniels and I went to Hinton, OK, in April to help the Soaring
Sooners start winch launching. Many members have ground launch
endorsements and auto tow experience. They bought the old Prescott
Soaring winch and re-engined it and tidied up the winch over last
winter. They bought 6000ft? of a spectra rope, of which we loaded
just over 5000ft on the winch. They launch from a small public
airport (4 power transitions each day while were were there) with a
4000ft paved runway and 500ft overruns to the fence at each end. The
winch can be parked at the fence at either end. The south end could
be used for a launch and landing zone if the wind were out of the
north and the ground dry. So they have a nominally a 4500ft run.
They also have runway lights on the sides and ends. I would never
have presumed to use steel rope there, but with the spectra it was no
problem as it fairly floats in the air and it was easy to fly the rope
and tackle over the end lights and drop it wherever I liked. They are
charging $12 a snap, but the concept is to grow the club with the
cheaper launches and pay for new equipment. To date they report about
350 launches. The FBO also provides aero tow services. They pay him
$1 per winch launch. The second ever launch we did was a 1-26 with a
CG hook and the pilot soared away for two hours. Their 2-33 doesn't
get that high, but manages to soar away. They have a project Blanik
they are restoring, which will give them much better results. Finger
Lakes might be the better option for you for training and observation,
as they also are located at a mixed use airport with reportedly 25
power transitions per day.

Clubs with short runs have generally been unhappy with winching. That
is, where they get 1100-1300agl normally. The Lawler winch was in
common use with the Southern Eagles for many years until they ran into
problems with airport management about the cross runway utilization.
It moved to Chillowhee, TN, for a number of years, where one drum was
fitted with spectra and the other with steel. Their run was short.
But I think they also may have had local issues which resulted in low
effective usage. From there it moved to Memphis. Again, short run,
lowish launches, so it wasn't as popular at it might have been. It's
now at PGC, and PGC sold their old winch to Finger Lakes. PGC has
been working to improve their winch run, but I don't have any reports
on activity from there. Finger Lakes is very happy with their winch
operation.

One thing about a winch is that it can run over uneven ground, so can
be placed well past the end of a runway. I've heard of a European
operation that built a trestle and wheel to put the launch rope over a
fence and another that turned a corner with the launch rope as there
was a dog leg in the runway. To me the perfect setup is a 5000ft run
with 1000ft land back area to the launch point. Next option is extra
width so land backs could parallel the launch run safely, though
gliders would have to be pushed back to the launch point. This isn't
so bad if there's a launch queue. When working with one or two
gliders, it slows the launch rate. If so narrow that you can't launch
until the gliders are retrieved, no one will be very enthused.
Minimum length for long term interest, in my opinion would be 4000ft,
but I'd keep looking for 4500ft. As airports usually have clear zones
off the end of the runways, there may be more options than are readily
apparent.

There is a winchdesign yahoo group with a lot of discussion, much
worth reading.

Regards,

Frank Whiteley

[Bill Daniels]

"toad" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Guys,
>
> I live in the Northeast US. To do my personal training at a location
> that far away, I would need a commercial type operation where I could
> do an intensive course. If you know of any that do that, please post
> specific names.
>
> The land required is the biggest problem here in the east. Land is
> too expensive and too crowded to get a 5000ft piece of land bought and
> turned into an airport. Unless you are a long drive from any large
> population centers.
>
>
> I do believe that for soaring to grow, it needs to be more exciting
> (for the newbie) and cheaper.
> Todd
> 3S

I think one of the overlooked possibilities for winch sites is underutilized
GA airports. I'm seeing and hearing that single engine GA traffic is WAY
down everywhere. Paying $300 to fill your Cessna's tanks will do that.
Out-of-the-way farm town airports are ghost towns. The EAA Airventure
attendance was down 100,000 compared to last year and many who attended
drove instead of flying. Several clubs operate their winches on GA airports
with no conflicts at all.

Bill Daniels

[Tom Gardner]

On Aug 15, 3:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> Let me get this strait, youth is very underrepresented and pilot numbers are
> crashing globally and you want to be choosy? Any kid that wants to fly
> gliders needs to be encouraged as much as possible, bling or no bling.

Spot on.

> Kids, even more than adults, will know the difference between a 2-33 and
> anything else. They will want to impress their friends that they are flying
> a 'cool' glider. 2-33's are VERY uncool.

One point of reference.

My daughter's first experience was an aerotow in a DG500 on a
cloudless
windless November morning. She enjoyed it.

That afternoon we went to the neighbouring club (only 10 km away :)
just to
see what that was like. To our pleasant surprise (no bookings, arrived
at 3pm)
they winched her up in a K13. That experience hooked her.

Last weekend she told me she rather likes the K13s because she can
see
their innards - there's no "hidden magic".

The coolness is that she is flying an aircraft; some classmates
still have difficulty believing it! Her friends wouldn't know (or
care
about) the difference between a DG1000 and a T21.


Another point of reference.

The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
and potential
members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
solving
that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.

Make of that what you will.


The runway is 1500m, the record winch launch is 2800', a K13 gets
>1500'
in still air and 2000' with a "decent" headwind. Crosswinds reduce the
launch
height of course, but 1500' is still normal.

tom gardner

[Dan G]

On Aug 15, 3:00 pm, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> Another consideration - does your particular club exist
> to provide everything for everybody? Or does it, more
> like my own, provide the cheapest entry into soaring,
> including cross-country trips, and then leave it to
> the individuals to move themselves into higher performance
> gliders? The second approach is a lot cheaper than
> the first.

I see this point of view lot - that a club is either practically a
commercial operation where everything is on a plate, OR everybody has
to do everything themselves and only the most determined need apply. I
say: there is a middle way, and it's one a lot clubs do in fact take.
You charge a *moderate* amount of money for membership and flying, and
then use that money wisely. You might get one or two GRP two-seaters,
which as Bill says are a world away from old 2-33s. You might employ a
full-time instructor or two and a tug-pilot in the week, so people are
guaranteed instruction if they come to the airfield during the week,
and perhaps you could run courses (and charge a nice premium for
them). You might get a Discus or similar to give people who are
progressing something to aim for to use, and then enjoy flying when
they get there before buying their own ship. You might, again as Bill
says, get a winch and introduce your local area to a cheaper and
downright more fun way to get airborne.


Dan

[Ian]

On 15 Aug, 15:00, Jim Beckman > wrote:

> And are those honestly the type you want to entice
> into gliding? Or are they inclined to get as much
> from a club as they can, and contribute as little as
> possible?

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I could name clubs in
the UK which are principally organisations for flying with some
communal activity and others which are mainly social clubs which do a
bit of flying on the side. There's room for both.

Ian

[Dan G]

On Aug 15, 8:13 pm, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
> and potential
> members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
> solving
> that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.

Aston Down. At first I thought they were mad, as they charge quite
steep fees, but then thought about it some more and read about
Lasham's experiences with the DG1000s, so wrote

> These PW6s look quite good value and make far more sense than the PW5
> ever did. They're much cheaper than anything else in their class and
> they make a good impression - a good, strong, modern ship. It might
> take 10 years for a club to pay for one, but think of the benefits -
> impresses visitors (=more members), can be used for XC training (=more
> membership progression), generally a damn sight nicer to fly than a
> tired old glider...

and then

> I personally believe modern GRP trainers may well be worth it.
> Membership costs seem to be surprisingly inelastic, and I suspect many
> potential members would rather payer somewhat higher fees in return
> for *far* better gliders.

On Tuesday. That said, I have a very soft spot for K13s and one in our
club was recently restored, and is now actually quite a smart ship.
People seem to like the bright colors it's painted in, and they have a
good view from the large one-piece canopy. K13s also typically enjoy
lower insurance and maintenance costs, as metal, wood and fabric is
cheaper to repair than GRP. Ergo:

> That said I think
> the K13 is the perfect trainer and if I ran a club with a fleet of
> those, I'd just repaint them and keep them, then add a K21 or G103 for
> XC training (consider that a mid-performance glider may be preferable
> for early XC training, as it's unlikely that your new early XC pilots
> will have access to gliders with any better performance!).


Dan

[Tom Gardner]

On Aug 15, 10:26 pm, Dan G > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 8:13 pm, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
> > and potential
> > members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
> > solving
> > that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.
>
> Aston Down.

Just so, but the actual club is, of course, only of passing
relevance in this thread.

> At first I thought they were mad, as they charge quite
> steep fees, but then thought about it some more and read about
> Lasham's experiences with the DG1000s

I'll leave that judgement to history and to those that
are more experienced than I am :)

All I'll say is that flying the Lasham DG1000 on my second
day (flights 5-7 :) was delightful, particularly the aerotow to
1000' above the Cu cloudbase followed by surfing the suds.
OTOH, acting as ballast in a K13 for an impromptu 60 min
"joyride" on flight 4 was also eye-opening.

Both K13s and DGxxxs are delightful; it is what you do
with them that creates the indelible memories. Plus, of
course, the flavour of the club and its members.

But, to return to the thread; as I intimated, I suspect the
rollercoaster of a winch launch is a better way of getting
kids hooked than a rather sedate aerotow.

tom gardner

[bagmaker]

There is no blanket fix, nor club style that suits all.
I advocate the new, shiny style of glider for all operations because that is what appeals to me.
I am mid 40s and have been gliding for 20 years, my own club is large and fairly all-encompassing in its approach to new members.
We have a duo, Blanik and 3 IS-28s for training/ checks and split the combination between sites.
The Lark is a much better proposition for attracting visitors than the Blanik, the duo puts them both to shame but seldom gets a run for new pilots or AEFs due to costs mentioned in other posts. I personally prefer to fly a Blanik over a club lark ( I am told the private ones are much nicer) however if someone told me they had turned all of them into scrap-metal for the cost of the aluminium I would hardly lose sleep.

All of the above aircraft are a vast improvement over a 2-33, but dont confuse my arguments with my dislike for the 2-33 OR its ilk. There is nothing wrong with old Vauxhalls or Buicks either, you just cant sell them to kids.

My argument (check some of my previos posts on this) is for CHANGE, this in itself is uncomfortable for many people. Gliding is in decline yet we continue with what we do. Thats crazy!
People, we have to change, embrace it. For some folks any change is a bitter pill, but please, look further than what suits your own needs, at your own location.

I believe part of that change is for shiny ships, embracing GP NZ style coverage of events and fast, glitzy promo ads such as are found made by the juniors in Australia and Britian. Search for loch-smoker on you-tube - THAT is an enticing video for potential young pilots. Compare it to the recent SSA vid. - good work but not for me.


Along with Bill Daniels I endorse more world-wide winching.
If you havent gone up a wire this will be hard to understand, it is a blast! Cheap and easy, the only way to teach gliding in my opinion. I have never met a person who didnt get hooked after a winch launch. $7 space shuttle imitation.

I do, however, understand that winching is the current most dangerous aspect of worldwide gliding, with some 50% of deaths attributed to winch-related accidents. (this figure is not mine, the statement comes from a world champion and I am just using it - I assume it is a correct figure). Better winches, technology in rope, more training, more experience may improve this figure.
More aerotowing will only see us broke. Sure there is a place for it, but not outside competition, early starting cross-country launches and retreives, aero-towing must be a second option to getting us into the sky. Just too damned expensive, noisy and in-efficient.

Ultimately, self launching gliders may be the only viable option to us, lets hope I am still doing a sport that is recognised as mainstream at that time everyone is self-launching. Because unless we change our ways, my generation of kids may be the worlds last glider pilots.

Are we understanding that fully? 1, maybe 2 generations to go, then no more gliding. Period.

The less voices we have, the less wallets buy the gliders, the less airspace we get, the less airfeilds remain, the more newbies fear the unknown, no-one fixes pawnees for tugs anymore nor builds new styles with a hook, - a flat spin developes into a spiral to our sad end.

Now before some of the old gin-swillers out there completely cover their white moustaches in spittle as they read this, scoffing, please get it into your heads that change will NOT mean you are NOT doing the odd flight at the field every year, and 20 more even longer, faster flights at the bar in your clubs all over the world.
AS one of you, in the future, I just want some kids to help pay for the priveledge of listening.

bagger

diving for cover

[Mike Schumann]

I suspect that what hooked her was the winch launch. The same thing
happened to me while visiting Germany. Glider pilots who have never
experienced a winch launch have no idea how much fun the launch itself is.
Pulling 2 Gs and gaining 1,000 ft in 40 seconds is how you get kids'
attention. The fact that it is MUCH cheaper, makes it possible for them to
come back on a regular basis.

Mike Schumann

"Tom Gardner" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 15, 3:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>> Let me get this strait, youth is very underrepresented and pilot numbers
>> are
>> crashing globally and you want to be choosy? Any kid that wants to fly
>> gliders needs to be encouraged as much as possible, bling or no bling.
>
> Spot on.
>
>> Kids, even more than adults, will know the difference between a 2-33 and
>> anything else. They will want to impress their friends that they are
>> flying
>> a 'cool' glider. 2-33's are VERY uncool.
>
> One point of reference.
>
> My daughter's first experience was an aerotow in a DG500 on a
> cloudless
> windless November morning. She enjoyed it.
>
> That afternoon we went to the neighbouring club (only 10 km away :)
> just to
> see what that was like. To our pleasant surprise (no bookings, arrived
> at 3pm)
> they winched her up in a K13. That experience hooked her.
>
> Last weekend she told me she rather likes the K13s because she can
> see
> their innards - there's no "hidden magic".
>
> The coolness is that she is flying an aircraft; some classmates
> still have difficulty believing it! Her friends wouldn't know (or
> care
> about) the difference between a DG1000 and a T21.
>
>
> Another point of reference.
>
> The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
> and potential
> members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
> solving
> that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.
>
> Make of that what you will.
>
>
> The runway is 1500m, the record winch launch is 2800', a K13 gets
>>1500'
> in still air and 2000' with a "decent" headwind. Crosswinds reduce the
> launch
> height of course, but 1500' is still normal.
>
> tom gardner
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ray Lovinggood]

Don't know how life is in Germany now since I haven't
lived there since 1986 :-(, but back then, not only
did the kids in the club have fun flying and getting
launched by the winch, but they also got to operate
The Lepo! I think you had to be 18 years old to get
a drivers license, so the folks who wanted to drive
but were too young, would jump at the chance to drive
The Lepo. We never lacked volunteer Lepo drivers.

Okay, what is 'The Lepo?' :-)

Even though I had my license, I enjoyed driving The
Lepo, too. Our Lepos were an Opel of some type (of
course) plus a Ford Taunus.

Now, based at a public airport with a 5,000 foot paved
runway and about 400 feet of grass overrun on one end
and maybe 100 feet of grass overrun at the other end,
I just wonder how we could get a winch and how we could
convince the airport management to allow us to use
it. And where would we get a 'proper Lepo?' :-)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


At 00:54 16 August 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:
>I suspect that what hooked her was the winch launch.
> The same thing
>happened to me while visiting Germany. Glider pilots
>who have never
>experienced a winch launch have no idea how much fun
>the launch itself is.
>Pulling 2 Gs and gaining 1,000 ft in 40 seconds is
>how you get kids'
>attention. The fact that it is MUCH cheaper, makes
>it possible for them to
>come back on a regular basis.
>
>Mike Schumann

[Tuno]

Step One: don't yell at them, or their parents, at contests ;)

[Frank Whiteley]

On Aug 15, 7:13 pm, Ray Lovinggood
> wrote:
> Don't know how life is in Germany now since I haven't
> lived there since 1986 :-(, but back then, not only
> did the kids in the club have fun flying and getting
> launched by the winch, but they also got to operate
> The Lepo! I think you had to be 18 years old to get
> a drivers license, so the folks who wanted to drive
> but were too young, would jump at the chance to drive
> The Lepo. We never lacked volunteer Lepo drivers.
>
> Okay, what is 'The Lepo?' :-)
>
> Even though I had my license, I enjoyed driving The
> Lepo, too. Our Lepos were an Opel of some type (of
> course) plus a Ford Taunus.
>
> Now, based at a public airport with a 5,000 foot paved
> runway and about 400 feet of grass overrun on one end
> and maybe 100 feet of grass overrun at the other end,
> I just wonder how we could get a winch and how we could
> convince the airport management to allow us to use
> it. And where would we get a 'proper Lepo?' :-)
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
KHRJ reports an average of 84 aircraft movements a day as of 2005.
Any higher or lower since then? Means communication between pilots
and winching ops.

Gliders land adjacent to paved runway in grass area. Is that on the
west or east side? Is that true at both ends? 60 power aircraft
based there? Is that a golf course
to the east? Some slope off runway is mentioned.

Lights standing or recessed? How much room between the pavement and
lights?

Honestly, it looks like a great place for winching. What you need is
a demo day.

Frank Whiteley

[Tom Gardner]

On Aug 16, 1:00 am, bagmaker >
wrote:
> All of the above aircraft are a vast improvement over a 2-33, but dont
> confuse my arguments with my dislike for the 2-33 OR its ilk. There is
> nothing wrong with old Vauxhalls or Buicks either, you just cant sell
> them to kids.

You make many good and useful points, but I'd like to
partially disagree with that statement. (BTW being
right-pondian, I don't know a 2-33's characteristics :)

Selling an old glider isn't likely to work. Selling what
*they* are allowed to *do* in the glider (e.g. a K13)
is likely to be successful. Sell their ruggedness so
that an early-stage pre-solo trainee "is let loose" to
do landings, spins, etc on their own.


tom gardner

[Tom Gardner]

On Aug 16, 1:49 am, "Mike Schumann" <mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com> wrote:
> I suspect that what hooked her was the winch launch.

Basically yes, but I don't want to overstate that opinion;
I strongly suspect she would have become hooked anyway.

> The same thing
> happened to me while visiting Germany. Glider pilots who have never
> experienced a winch launch have no idea how much fun the launch itself is.

They are gobsmacked just *watching* a few winch
launches, particularly comparing 0-60kt in 5s
(cars 0-60mph in 15s :) and seeing the *top* of the
aircraft as it ascends. It *looks*dangerous and exciting,
so (with exceptions) they want to try it.


> Pulling 2 Gs and gaining 1,000 ft in 40 seconds is how you get kids'
> attention. The fact that it is MUCH cheaper, makes it possible for them to
> come back on a regular basis.

They (and me for that matter) appreciate that in the early
stages it is important and *fun* to be doing lots of circuits
and landings. Not to mention cable-break practice ("if
the mud floats around your face you've done it about
right, if it plasters itself over the canopy you've been
too enthusiastic" :) Thermalling is fun, but a bit
repetitive if you can't go cross-country.

I'll go even further and state that I suspect a more difficult
stage will be early post-solo when circuits and landings
are "mastered" but they aren't capable/confident of
going cross-country.

tom gardner

[Ray Lovinggood]

This message should go private, but I don't know your
address.


>KHRJ reports an average of 84 aircraft movements a
>day as of 2005.
>Any higher or lower since then?

I have no idea. On weekends, not much power traffic
comes and goes. Maybe a couple or up to, oh, 10 movements?
Whomever comes up with the '84' movements a day is
an unknown person to me. Maybe they are averaging
in our glider movements? Even then, I know nobody
but the club is logging flights and we haven't been
asked to provide that info to the airport or the county.


Means communication between pilots
>and winching ops.

Agreed. Sometimes, we have the power types that love
to do straight in approaches and the no-radio approaches
and the REALLY WIDE PATTERN approaches.
>
>Gliders land adjacent to paved runway in grass area.
> Is that on the
>west or east side?

Normally, the west side grass is used for landing for
runway 23 ops and the east side grass is used for landing
for runway 05 ops. Power traffic makes left patterns
and gliders make right patterns.

Is that true at both ends?

We are currently taking off and landing on the pavement
on 05 because the county had some earthwork done recently.
They really buggered up the grass we use for the 05
ops. They graded out a lot of the area to the southeast,
'borrowing' fill material and placing it on the 'drop
off' to the south west of the runway. The slope used
to be, oh 2:1 or 3:1, but they flattened it out to
4:1 or even flatter. In the process, they made our
grass area much wider and has potential for a lot of
glider staging, but they just left it rough as a cob.


60 power aircraft
>based there?

I doubt that number. Maybe only half that.


Is that a golf course
>to the east?

Yes. 'Keith Hill Country Club.' I think 36 holes
now. And I believe it's actually part of Campbell
University, which is the clump of building to the north-east
of the golf course. The University usually serves
as the 'house thermal.'

Some slope off runway is mentioned.

See answer above. Yea, as you depart on R/W 23, the
ground off the end of the runway really drops down
to the floodplain of the Cape Fear River.

>Lights standing or recessed? How much room between
>the pavement and
>lights?

Lights are the typical 'up on a post' type. There's
10' between edge of pavement and the lights. Currently,
the runway is 75 feet wide, but there are plans afoot
to widen it to 100 feet.
>
>Honestly, it looks like a great place for winching.
> What you need is
>a demo day.

Oh yea! Bring us a 'HydroStart' from the Netherlands.
Don't know what the airport would think if our avgas
purchases for the towplane dropped to almost nothing...

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Tom Gardner wrote:
>
> But, to return to the thread; as I intimated, I suspect the
> rollercoaster of a winch launch is a better way of getting
> kids hooked than a rather sedate aerotow.
>
I thoroughly agree. Its bad news for amusement park operators, though -
their rides are rather unimpressive once you're used to winching.

I soloed on a winch. My only pre-solo aero-tow was the spin demo flight:
we managed to find thermals when we needed them for my actual spin
training. From my early aero tows I got the distinct impression that
winching is easier for the early ab initio than aero towing, simply
because most gliders are stable on the wire once they're established in
the climb while staying behind the tug is HARD while your handling
skills are still developing.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tom Gardner]

On Aug 16, 1:00 pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> I thoroughly agree. Its bad news for amusement park operators, though -
> their rides are rather unimpressive once you're used to winching.

<grin>

Yes, I've used the "you just sit there and have something
done to you" argument too, and it *is* working. On Saturday
I took my daughter on a ride that whirled you around from 5'
to maybe 100' and flipped you upside down occasionally.
She thought it wasn't worth the £5.

I've also tried to dissuade her from flying; since she's had
the experience of spins, loops, chandelles, there's clearly
nothing left for her to do. That *isn't* working.

tom gardner

[mattm]

On Aug 15, 9:13 pm, Ray Lovinggood
> wrote:
> And where would we get a 'proper Lepo?' :-)

Chop the top off my wife's Prius? X-)

Driver of the "Ultimate Golf Cart"
-- Matt

[mattm]

On Aug 16, 7:37 am, Ray Lovinggood
> wrote:
>
> >KHRJ reports an average of 84 aircraft movements a
> >day as of 2005.
> >Any higher or lower since then?
>
> I have no idea. On weekends, not much power traffic
> comes and goes. Maybe a couple or up to, oh, 10 movements?
> Whomever comes up with the '84' movements a day is
> an unknown person to me. Maybe they are averaging
> in our glider movements? Even then, I know nobody
> but the club is logging flights and we haven't been
> asked to provide that info to the airport or the county.

Yes, the glider traffic is a fair chunk of that. Consider that the
takeoff counts
as one movement, and the landing of the towplane and glider each count
as another,
so those "really good" days with 20+ launches contribute 60+
"movements".

>
> Oh yea! Bring us a 'HydroStart' from the Netherlands.
> Don't know what the airport would think if our avgas
> purchases for the towplane dropped to almost nothing...

Another issue with using a winch. At one time the club DID use
a winch, back when it operated at Wilson, NC. Ask Paul about
that sometime. I don't know how it was involved with the club
leaving Wilson.

[[email protected]]

On Aug 15, 5:00 pm, bagmaker >
wrote:
> There is no blanket fix, nor club style that suits all.
> I advocate the new, shiny style of glider for all operations because
> that is what appeals to me.
> I am mid 40s and have been gliding for 20 years, my own club is large
> and fairly all-encompassing in its approach to new members.
> We have a duo, Blanik and 3 IS-28s for training/ checks and split the
> combination between sites.
> The Lark is a much better proposition for attracting visitors than the
> Blanik, the duo puts them both to shame but seldom gets a run for new
> pilots or AEFs due to costs mentioned in other posts. I personally
> prefer to fly a Blanik over a club lark ( I am told the private ones
> are much nicer) however if someone told me they had turned all of them
> into scrap-metal for the cost of the aluminium I would hardly lose
> sleep.
>
> All of the above aircraft are a vast improvement over a 2-33, but dont
> confuse my arguments with my dislike for the 2-33 OR its ilk. There is
> nothing wrong with old Vauxhalls or Buicks either, you just cant sell
> them to kids.
>
> My argument (check some of my previos posts on this) is for CHANGE,
> this in itself is uncomfortable for many people. Gliding is in decline
> yet we continue with what we do. Thats crazy!
> People, we have to change, embrace it. For some folks any change is a
> bitter pill, but please, look further than what suits your own needs,
> at your own location.
>
> I believe part of that change is for shiny ships, embracing GP NZ style
> coverage of events and fast, glitzy promo ads such as are found made by
> the juniors in Australia and Britian. Search for loch-smoker on
> you-tube - THAT is an enticing video for potential young pilots.
> Compare it to the recent SSA vid. - good work but not for me.
>
> Along with Bill Daniels I endorse more world-wide winching.
> If you havent gone up a wire this will be hard to understand, it is a
> blast! Cheap and easy, the only way to teach gliding in my opinion. I
> have never met a person who didnt get hooked after a winch launch. $7
> space shuttle imitation.
>
> I do, however, understand that winching is the current most dangerous
> aspect of worldwide gliding, with some 50% of deaths attributed to
> winch-related accidents. (this figure is not mine, the statement comes
> from a world champion and I am just using it - I assume it is a correct
> figure). Better winches, technology in rope, more training, more
> experience may improve this figure.
> More aerotowing will only see us broke. Sure there is a place for it,
> but not outside competition, early starting cross-country launches and
> retreives, aero-towing must be a second option to getting us into the
> sky. Just too damned expensive, noisy and in-efficient.
>
> Ultimately, self launching gliders may be the only viable option to us,
> lets hope I am still doing a sport that is recognised as mainstream at
> that time everyone is self-launching. Because unless we change our
> ways, my generation of kids may be the worlds last glider pilots.
>
> Are we understanding that fully? 1, maybe 2 generations to go, then no
> more gliding. Period.
>
> The less voices we have, the less wallets buy the gliders, the less
> airspace we get, the less airfeilds remain, the more newbies fear the
> unknown, no-one fixes pawnees for tugs anymore nor builds new styles
> with a hook, - a flat spin developes into a spiral to our sad end.
>
> Now before some of the old gin-swillers out there completely cover
> their white moustaches in spittle as they read this, scoffing, please
> get it into your heads that change will NOT mean you are NOT doing the
> odd flight at the field every year, and 20 more even longer, faster
> flights at the bar in your clubs all over the world.
> AS one of you, in the future, I just want some kids to help pay for the
> priveledge of listening.
>
> bagger
>
> diving for cover
>
> --
> bagmaker

WAW!!!! Let me know where do you live....for that statement I will
send you a fat bottle of good old "Makers Mark".....and don't dive for
cover, I used to but not anymore.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

[Jack[_4_]]

I have read all this and the thing that's missing is effort. Kids
nowadays don't have to do much to be entertained. When I was growing
up, everything required effort. I had to cut grass and throw papers to
make enough money to feed my model habit. Five lawns would buy a
Nordic A-2 kit, and then I had to build it. I ran wings for weeks at a
time before someone would offer me a glider ride. Kids now have models
already built for them, cheap video games and all sorts of other
entertainment to keep them occupied... and parents that would rather
throw money at them than spend time with them. However, remembering
the young people at Houston that were flying, and the parents that
were the exception to the last statement... When they did bring other
young folk to the airport, their friends were astonished that they
were actually flying. It didn't seem to matter that they were flying a
2-33, they were flying. It isn't just gliding that's declining, but
all general aviation is falling off, too.

I fly both, real and R/C sailplanes. I'm almost 56, and I seldom see
anyone younger than 40 at either place... the gliderport, or the R/C
field. I know they're out there, but their numbers are small, indeed.

Jack Womack

[Michael Ash]

Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> I soloed on a winch. My only pre-solo aero-tow was the spin demo flight:
> we managed to find thermals when we needed them for my actual spin
> training. From my early aero tows I got the distinct impression that
> winching is easier for the early ab initio than aero towing, simply
> because most gliders are stable on the wire once they're established in
> the climb while staying behind the tug is HARD while your handling
> skills are still developing.

I have never winched but that sounds right to me. Learning the tow was the
most difficult phsyical task (as opposed to things like landing where it's
mostly mental effort) of the whole thing. Although I managed to fly a
large portion of the tow on my second flight, I'm informed that this is
abnormal, and it took many more flights to become comfortable with it.
Even post-solo, having transitioned to single-place gliders and with 40-50
flights under my belt, I went through a period about a month or two long
where I felt uncomfortable under tow and really looked forward to reaching
release altitude so I wouldn't have to do it anymore.

I'm all better now, tow is a piece of cake and as fun as any other routine
part of a flight, but it was definitely tough to learn and I can see why
winching would be much easier.

As for danger, we have enough open fields around our airport that I'm
confident of a safe outcome of basically any tow emergency. The only time
I got particularly worried was flying a fully loaded Grob 103 on a very
hot and humid day behind a tow pilot who didn't feel like climbing near
the airport before heading out. Being unusually low and distant from the
airport made me sweat, but some quick mental arithmetic confirmed that the
Grob's 37:1 glide ratio kept us well within safe distance of the field the
whole way up, so I never tried to get him to turn around.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Michael Ash wrote:
> As for danger, we have enough open fields around our airport that I'm
> confident of a safe outcome of basically any tow emergency.
>
Likewise, on my home field, which also has a lot of open, flat fields
round it.

I'm happy about winch launch failures at home - the winch is always on
the end of a wide enough run so landing ahead from a low failure is
never a problem. I've never flown at a site with the winch placed off in
the boonies but I do wonder if that sort of layout can make low breaks
somewhat problematic. I'd be interested to hear peoples experiences of
launch failures with this winch placement.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Vaughn Simon]

"Jim Beckman" > wrote in message
...
> And are those honestly the type you want to entice
> into gliding? Or are they inclined to get as much
> from a club as they can, and contribute as little as
> possible?

I will never forget the look on my daughter's face the first time she got a
close look at a 2-33. It wasn't pretty! (neither the look nor the 2-33) She
had been flying Cezznas and decided on gliders because she would soon be old
enough to solo a glider. After her first flight, we heard no more about the
2-33 being ugly, it was just an aircraft to be mastered.

Yes, she not only soloed it, she got her license and moments later took her
(then) non-pilot father for one of his first glider rides. I was stoic, but
mildly nervous. I, more than anyone, knew that my daughter was not perfect. It
was some ten years later before I finally soloed, also in a 2-33.

Vaughn

[bagmaker]

THIS is how you do a good advert - next GP in New Zealand.

http://www.r2.co.nz/20060623/promo-mbr.asx

and show the kids!

bagger
(getting tired of explaining that wings are supposed to flap like that)

[Bob]

bagmaker wrote:
> THIS is how you do a good advert - next GP in New Zealand.
>
> http://www.r2.co.nz/20060623/promo-mbr.asx
>
> and show the kids!
>
> bagger
> (getting tired of explaining that wings are supposed to flap like that)
>
>
>
>

I'm not knocking this new filmography - it is spectacular, beautiful and
revolutionary, but I wouldn't show it to the mother of one of the Boy
Scouts I take on a gliding camp out each year. They already think
gliding is very dangerous. This promo tends to reinforce that idea. The
people developing this are trying to turn soaring into a media sport on
a par with Formula One, NASCAR etc. for $$$. So they have to emphasize
the idea the pilots could get killed by getting smashed on those rocks
while doing this in order to make it seem exciting and attract the
audiences the sponsors want. The audiences haven't really changed much
since the days of the Roman Coliseum. They want there to actually be a
signficant chance of somebody getting killed or maimed at least every
second or third time they watch, or it will be boring.

[Dan G]

It's horses for courses. That film does what it aims to do - promote
Air Sports' gliding GP format and technology - very well. You'd be
bonkers to show it to the mum of a scout just taking up gliding, or
any other newbie in fact - what's any of that film got to do with what
you or I do at our clubs at the weekend? However, show some TV execs
that film and it may well lead to them bidding for the coverage rights
for any future GPs.

I hope people keep making good quality films about gliding but really
consider who their target audience is.


Dan

[MickiMinner]

To Dan and Bagger and et al:

I agree the video from NZ was GREAT...for the more experienced pilot
or the glider pilot looking to "enhance" his experience by adding
competition. Or the crew on the ground that want to "see" what their
pilot is doing. It was also a GREAT video to promote the marketing
value of soaring...(can you believe anyone ever thought to do that in
the first place...Soaring is the most under-marketed sport I have ever
seen in my life! - even curling, bull-riding, and Scrabble
tournaments do better than soaring!)


But I agree with Dan, that you have to "gear" the attention to the
right audience. Mike Robison showed me a video he made with Mark
Maughmer back in 2001, and it was incredible, but SCARY...lots of low
dives and sweeps. The older teens loved it, the ones who didn't know
anything about soaring were mildly impressed, but no way were they
going to try that!

if you don't have a clear idea of the age group you want to attract,
you aren't doing much but wasting the money you are willing to spend.
micki

[Bob]

I think I WOULD show it to the boy scouts, but I'll keep it
away from their Mums. BTW, it's really spectacular, but even
with the commentary, and being a soaring pilot, I still have
a hard time figuring out what kind of lift they are using to stay up.
Just from watching the movie it's kind of hard to tell much of the
time. It would be nice to have some type of computer graphic overlay
that shows the wind direction possibly. I guess even with the new
technology, it would still be
impossible to know where the thermals are and overlay those
as well?

MickiMinner wrote:
> To Dan and Bagger and et al:
>
> I agree the video from NZ was GREAT...for the more experienced pilot
> or the glider pilot looking to "enhance" his experience by adding
> competition. Or the crew on the ground that want to "see" what their
> pilot is doing. It was also a GREAT video to promote the marketing
> value of soaring...(can you believe anyone ever thought to do that in
> the first place...Soaring is the most under-marketed sport I have ever
> seen in my life! - even curling, bull-riding, and Scrabble
> tournaments do better than soaring!)
>
>
> But I agree with Dan, that you have to "gear" the attention to the
> right audience. Mike Robison showed me a video he made with Mark
> Maughmer back in 2001, and it was incredible, but SCARY...lots of low
> dives and sweeps. The older teens loved it, the ones who didn't know
> anything about soaring were mildly impressed, but no way were they
> going to try that!
>
> if you don't have a clear idea of the age group you want to attract,
> you aren't doing much but wasting the money you are willing to spend.
> micki
>