Question about preparing a x-country plan with decision (go/no go) points...

[[email protected]]

I've seen mention of this quite a bit, but have not been able to find
examples of the different ways to do this. Anyone care to elaborate on
what you do?

By the way, I have a flight computer with GPS (302/303) and also have
the GlidePlan software for printing areas of sectionals with altitude
rings along any flight routes/tasks. I'm really just curious about
what folks would be doing without the nicer tools.


Thanks,
Dave

[Tuno]

Dave,

You should be able to find examples in any of the more popular x/c
soaring books out there.

But I would suggest using a navigation system that assists you with
this calculation. You have a 302; add a PDA with GlideNav II or SeeYou
Mobile or WinPilot or XCSoar. These programs know the elevations of
your landing points, your glider's polar, and use current soaring
conditions (wind and MacCreedy) to figure out in real time what you
can get to, over your choice of safety altitude. Flying x/c becomes
much, much easier with a system like this, especially with higher
winds.

-ted/2NO

[Bill Daniels]

Dave, you'll get a lot of good advice about using "Glideplan" technique.
However, I'm going to give an unconventional answer that may help someone.

When I started, like everyone else, I drew circles around airports where I
knew I could land showing the altitude required to get there. That resulted
in a lot of circles around a lot of airports - most of which I didn't get
near. One of many problems with this approach is that circles don't
accurately show the actual heights required - wind and changing terrain
elevation make a big difference.

Now, I look at it differently. I just want to know my 'glide footprint' or
how far I can glide from right here, right now, taking everything into
consideration. That tells me which 'known-safe' landing areas are within
range at, say, 1/2 best L/D. I always keep two within range in case one
gets blocked by a downburst or thunderstorm. If I start to get low, I move
toward one of them while still looking for lift. If I don't find lift, I'll
still be in a good position to land.

Only on a dead calm day over a perfectly flat plain with the 'glide
footprint' be a circle. The 'glide footprint' in mountainous areas is
usually a really bizzare shape looking like a butterfly if you are over a
ridge or a star over a group of peaks. There are two PDA software programs
that display 'glide footprints'. One is XC Soar and the other is GPS_LOG
WinCE. I use GPS_LOG Win CE.

Bill Daniels

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've seen mention of this quite a bit, but have not been able to find
> examples of the different ways to do this. Anyone care to elaborate on
> what you do?
>
> By the way, I have a flight computer with GPS (302/303) and also have
> the GlidePlan software for printing areas of sectionals with altitude
> rings along any flight routes/tasks. I'm really just curious about
> what folks would be doing without the nicer tools.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>

[toad]

On Aug 15, 2:26 pm, wrote:
> I've seen mention of this quite a bit, but have not been able to find
> examples of the different ways to do this. Anyone care to elaborate on
> what you do?
>
> By the way, I have a flight computer with GPS (302/303) and also have
> the GlidePlan software for printing areas of sectionals with altitude
> rings along any flight routes/tasks. I'm really just curious about
> what folks would be doing without the nicer tools.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave

What to do without the PDA map ? You can mark a sectional with rings,
or mark a sectional showing "sectors" that belong to each known
landing point.

Of course without the PDA map your position will be approximate within
a mile or 2. (unless you are over some very clear landmark or
familiar terrain). You will also not have a precise idea of the
wind.

With all of the conservatism that needs to be built into any pre-
planned route, the old Mark I eyeball might be your best bet. Look
for a landing field and ask yourself, "can I glide there ?". If the
answer is "easily", you are OK. If the answer is "probably", climb !

If you fly over farm country, then it's a non-issue.

Todd
3S

[Chris Reed[_1_]]

toad wrote:
> If you fly over farm country, then it's a non-issue.
>

I think this is worth elaborating on. If you're flying in inhospitable
terrain (mountains, desert, etc) then detailed planning of this kind is
important.

However, my experience from flying in the UK flatlands is that too much
planning of this kind is a bad thing. It ties you to a pre-defined
track, and the whole essence of cross-country soaring is to go where the
energy is, and not where your planning said you *should* go. A 15k
diversion is no big deal to stay airborne and see new country.

In my area, at least 25% of the fields are landable almost all the year
(exception mid-June to mid-July when the crops are high, and even then
probably 5-10% are OK), and today at least 50% are landable.

So, if I were flying tomorrow, my planning would cover the route and
airspace. I know that I can land pretty much anywhere - at 2,000 ft I'll
make sure that there are actually good fields around, and around 1,000
ft I'll pick the one (though soar away from the circuit if I can). In
between I'll have a choice of 2 or 3. [For non-UK readers, 5k ft is a
good cloudbase, 3-3.5k is perfectly XC-able]

Once this planning is done, I'll fly in the general direction I want to
go, but concentrate on being in the best bit of sky. I don't care about
pre-planned airfields because I don't need them.

With this attitude, XC is fun and often successful. In the past I flew
the line I drew on the map and landed out because I flew in the wrong
parts of the sky. If I'd insisted on being able to reach the next
airfield, I might never have gone anywhere!

And anyway, landouts in safe fields are not disastrous. Last month I
landed out and was well received by the farmer. This might be because
his wife's mother met her father when he crashed a Sopwith Camel nearby
in 1919. Her birth was due to an outlanding, so I was very welcome.
Friends have been collected too drunk to drive because they landed next
to a party.

My conclusion - don't plan your landout fields unless you really need
to. Too much planning can prevent you making a successful XC flight.

[mattm]

On Aug 15, 6:02 pm, Chris Reed > wrote:
> toad wrote:
> > If you fly over farm country, then it's a non-issue.
>
....
>
> And anyway, landouts in safe fields are not disastrous.

I'll second all that advice. I flew for almost 20 years without
really going cross country (I did get 10-15 miles away a few times,
but I was basically within gliding distance). Then, one day 2 years
ago I got caught in sink in the club L33 and got to meet a nice turf
farmer about 3 miles away from our airport. It was the nicest runway
I'd ever landed on! That got me over my internal resistance to cross
country flying.

Later that summer I finished up my silver badge and haven't looked
back. This year I flew my first regional contest and actually didn't
finish dead last! Last month I flew my gold distance/diamond goal
flight.

I have to say that it's nice flying with the PDA software. The
program I use (SoarPilot) highlights all the airports in gliding range
and can do glide over terrain if you need that. However, I do fly
without it sometimes for various reasons (on the diamond flight I
forgot a vital connector and couldn't use it). It helps that I am
comfortable using just a sectional and compass. The 3K/2K/1K rule
works quite well in any case.

[[email protected]]

On Aug 16, 9:42 am, mattm > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 6:02 pm, Chris Reed > wrote:
>
> > toad wrote:
> > > If you fly over farm country, then it's a non-issue.
>
> ...
>
> > And anyway, landouts in safe fields are not disastrous.
>
> I'll second all that advice. I flew for almost 20 years without
> really going cross country (I did get 10-15 miles away a few times,
> but I was basically within gliding distance). Then, one day 2 years
> ago I got caught in sink in the club L33 and got to meet a nice turf
> farmer about 3 miles away from our airport. It was the nicest runway
> I'd ever landed on! That got me over my internal resistance to cross
> country flying.
>
> Later that summer I finished up my silver badge and haven't looked
> back. This year I flew my first regional contest and actually didn't
> finish dead last! Last month I flew my gold distance/diamond goal
> flight.
>
> I have to say that it's nice flying with the PDA software. The
> program I use (SoarPilot) highlights all the airports in gliding range
> and can do glide over terrain if you need that. However, I do fly
> without it sometimes for various reasons (on the diamond flight I
> forgot a vital connector and couldn't use it). It helps that I am
> comfortable using just a sectional and compass. The 3K/2K/1K rule
> works quite well in any case.

ill third it. flying here in Iowa there are fields everywhere. most
are darn flat too. cross country this time of the year is doable if
the cloudbase is high enough. landout options are limited though, the
corn is 10 feet tall and teh soybeans are full too. however there are
a fair amount of pastures and the like where landings can be made.

ive never done XC planning except on my checkride. I usually have a
general direction in mind when I take off and if i have time to look
at the map during flight ill keep track of where I am. the advantage
I have is over 1000 hrs of flying in the state so a lot of the
geography is known to me. I dont need to reference the chart for much
info which allows me to focus on the sky and flying. in the spring
and fall when there are no crops in the fields the entire state is
just like a big runway. landings can darn near literally be made
anywhere. its excellent for XC soaring, plus the lift is stronger and
higher during those times.

hooray for flying XC in the midwest. you guys can have your 1000 fpm
thermals and wave to 30000 feet out west. :D

[[email protected]]

> And anyway, landouts in safe fields are not disastrous. Last month I
> landed out and was well received by the farmer. This might be because
> his wife's mother met her father when he crashed a Sopwith Camel nearby
> in 1919. Her birth was due to an outlanding, so I was very welcome.
> Friends have been collected too drunk to drive because they landed next
> to a party.

did they let you meet their daughter??? :)