Winching (European tips for US clubs)

[Chris Reed[_1_]]

A number of the current threads talk about winching in the US. As this
is fairly new to the US, and old hat in Europe, it might be useful for
European readers to offer tips to US clubs who are thinking of trying it.

My tips would be:

1. A 3,000 ft run is enough, but 3.5-4k ft is better. 3k ft will give
1100+ ft in nil wind, which in the UK I reckon will get a pilot away
between 1/3 and 1/2 the time. 1500+ ft improves that to better than 1/2.
Winching is about the same price as aerotow at 1/3 (though more
time-consuming) - at better than 1/2 it's little more effort for all
involved and approaches 1/2 the price. Most UK winch launches cost
around 1/3 an aerotow.

2. Narrow strips are not good news unless the winch run is long enough
to make the getting away rate better than 1/2. I was for 10 years a
member of a club with a 3k ft run and a strip too narrow to launch if
another glider was on approach. This is very frustrating. The ideal
winch strip has enough width at the launch end to allow gliders to land
to one side of the winch run. This means you can queue up the launches
and send them off as rapidly as possible.

3. Who drives the winch? At my previous club, pilots were rotaed to
drive for 1/2 a day. This is very frustrating if it's a good day,
particularly if (as for many pilots) work or family limits the number of
days you can potentially fly. The happiest winching clubs I know either
(a) pay a winch driver, or (b) winch co-operatively with aerotow backup
if no-one wants to drive the thing.

Any other tips?

[Dan G]

On Aug 15, 11:21 pm, Chris Reed > wrote:
> A number of the current threads talk about winching in the US. As this
> is fairly new to the US, and old hat in Europe, it might be useful for
> European readers to offer tips to US clubs who are thinking of trying it.

My tip would to be concentrate on safety. It is of utmost importance
that a glider can also recover from a launch failure no matter when
during the launch it occurs. That sounds simple but in reality it's
quite complex: it mandates that the glider is flown in a very precise
and quite narrow envelope during the launch, particularly the first
part, and what you actually do in the event of a failure is totally
dependent on the layout of the airfield and wind speed and direction.
You need very experienced people to teach you what to do.

The BGA has produced excellent safety advice, read it here:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/documents/safewinchlaunching.pdf

However, if you don't follow that advice, this is what happens:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Schleicher%20ASW%2020L%20glider,%20BGA%204354%2008-07.pdf


Dan

[Bill Daniels]

Yes, safety is very important, but it's not a black art. If a student pilot
can be taught winch launch in 20 or so flights, a rated pilot can be taught
in less. There's no reason that a good pilot shouldn't be able to
concentrate on a launch for 30 - 40- seconds. The envelope is narrow but
not extremely so. Don't overstate the case.

Bill Daniels


"Dan G" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 15, 11:21 pm, Chris Reed > wrote:
>> A number of the current threads talk about winching in the US. As this
>> is fairly new to the US, and old hat in Europe, it might be useful for
>> European readers to offer tips to US clubs who are thinking of trying it.
>
> My tip would to be concentrate on safety. It is of utmost importance
> that a glider can also recover from a launch failure no matter when
> during the launch it occurs. That sounds simple but in reality it's
> quite complex: it mandates that the glider is flown in a very precise
> and quite narrow envelope during the launch, particularly the first
> part, and what you actually do in the event of a failure is totally
> dependent on the layout of the airfield and wind speed and direction.
> You need very experienced people to teach you what to do.
>
> The BGA has produced excellent safety advice, read it here:
>
> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/documents/safewinchlaunching.pdf
>
> However, if you don't follow that advice, this is what happens:
>
> http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Schleicher%20ASW%2020L%20glider,%20BGA%204354%2008-07.pdf
>
>
> Dan
>

[Tom Gardner]

On Aug 16, 12:29 am, Dan G > wrote:
> My tip would to be concentrate on safety. It is of utmost importance
> that a glider can also recover from a launch failure no matter when
> during the launch it occurs.

Too true, but...

> That sounds simple but in reality it's
> quite complex: it mandates that the glider is flown in a very precise
> and quite narrow envelope during the launch, particularly the first
> part, and what you actually do in the event of a failure is totally
> dependent on the layout of the airfield and wind speed and direction.

Isn't the same true with aerotows?

I was taught (and it was demonstrated) that in still air a K13
will get itself into the air correctly without significant pilot
input. I exaggerate slightly, of course :)

> You need very experienced people to teach you what to do.

And a "good" site. I've heard rumours of sites where, if there is
a break at certain heights, you are almost guaranteed to end
up in some trees. I wonder if that is true or merely a bar story.

Certainly the site was a major factor in my choosing a club;
the target zone is very large, and there is an embarrassment
of options.

> The BGA has produced excellent safety advice, read it here:
> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/documents/safewinchlaunching.pdf

That's a useful aide memoire, but recent local experience
is more relevant and necessary.

> However, if you don't follow that advice, this is what happens:
> http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Schleicher%20ASW%2020L%20glider,...

True, but there are equivalent considerations with aerotow failures,
plus you can kill the tuggie.

tom gardner

[Bruce]

Relative safety or danger of winching depends on lots of things. It all comes
down to stacking the odds in your favour, considering the four factors involved:
Weather, wind makes a much bigger difference when you are attached to the earth
by a string.
Field topography, winch fields need to have options for landing from a wider
range of heights over the runway.
Aircraft performance, aerotow tends to homogenise performance, you get what the
tug can do most of the time. Winch accentuates differences, and changes your
options dramatically.
Pilot capability, changes day to day, and incestuously with the other three.
Can't assume that the pilot who has no problems with the big slow two seater
will be able to judge the recovery procedure correctly first time in the glass
single.

In my experience what causes accidents is people failing to objectively assess
the permutation presented.

Physical layout of the site may make it difficult for certain gliders under
certain circumstances to land safely with a cable break or winch failure in a
certain height band. European clubs often launch out of very short fields with
limited options if things go awry. My home club has an ideal runway for
winching, with angled launch points leading into the main runway inset ~200m
from the threshold. We never launch with another aircraft on base or finals, as
there is no point in looking for danger. But we could do so without conflict, as
a well judged landing has the lander stopped opposite the launch point.
Conversely at another club I fly at - launching up hill on a shorter runway with
the Twin Astir in light wind has a window where there are few good options. In
these conditions there is always a discussion of the options and decision points
before the canopy closes. No matter who is flying. We teach that a cable break
is a normal manoeuvre - not an emergency. If you don't know how you are going to
avoid damage or injury if there is a launch failure you should decline the launch.

The operating envelope is reduced, as others have noted, but not dramatically
so, and not at the expense of safety. I expect the higher incidence of winch
accidents / injuries is diagnostic of the relative number of launches, with a
bit of complacency thrown in.

Personally I have found being dragged kilometres from the runway at low level
with the airspeed in the yellow arc far more worrying than any of the many winch
launch failures I have had. You are far more exposed to circumstances and poor
decision making (your own and the tuggie's) on an aerotow, and for a lot longer.
The converse is also true, when the right decision may be to not fly, there are
two pilots who have to make the mistake to decide to launch an aerotow
combination.




Tom Gardner wrote:
> On Aug 16, 12:29 am, Dan G > wrote:
>> My tip would to be concentrate on safety. It is of utmost importance
>> that a glider can also recover from a launch failure no matter when
>> during the launch it occurs.
>
> Too true, but...
>
>> That sounds simple but in reality it's
>> quite complex: it mandates that the glider is flown in a very precise
>> and quite narrow envelope during the launch, particularly the first
>> part, and what you actually do in the event of a failure is totally
>> dependent on the layout of the airfield and wind speed and direction.
>
> Isn't the same true with aerotows?
>
> I was taught (and it was demonstrated) that in still air a K13
> will get itself into the air correctly without significant pilot
> input. I exaggerate slightly, of course :)
>
>> You need very experienced people to teach you what to do.
>
> And a "good" site. I've heard rumours of sites where, if there is
> a break at certain heights, you are almost guaranteed to end
> up in some trees. I wonder if that is true or merely a bar story.
>
> Certainly the site was a major factor in my choosing a club;
> the target zone is very large, and there is an embarrassment
> of options.
>
>> The BGA has produced excellent safety advice, read it here:
>> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/documents/safewinchlaunching.pdf
>
> That's a useful aide memoire, but recent local experience> is more relevant and necessary.
>
>> However, if you don't follow that advice, this is what happens:
>> http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Schleicher%20ASW%2020L%20glider,...
>
> True, but there are equivalent considerations with aerotow failures,
> plus you can kill the tuggie.
>
> tom gardner
>

[toad]

On Aug 16, 8:01 am, Bruce > wrote:
....
> Personally I have found being dragged kilometres from the runway at low level
> with the airspeed in the yellow arc far more worrying than any of the many winch
> launch failures I have had.

This doesn't sound like any aero-tow that I every had. I might have
to have a little "discussion" with the tuggie after that.

Todd

[Dan G]

On Aug 16, 3:45 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> The envelope is narrow but
> not extremely so. Don't overstate the case.

An awful lot of people used to get killed in the UK winch launching,
and it did have an accident rate several times higher than aerotowing
(I believe the exact number was three times as many killed per winch
launch as there were per aerotow launch). Then the BGA instigated a
Safety Initiative in 2005, and since then I believe there's only been
one death - the one I linked to above, where the pilot ignored BGA
advice and paid the price.

Winching is perfectly safe - I don't launch any other way - but it
demands respect. The last thing winching in the US needs is an
accident. If you're starting a winch operation from an experience base
of zero, you need to thoroughly plan how you're going to get the
training and advice required, because it isn't trivial and is very
different to aerotow.


Dan

[nimbusgb]

On 16 Aug, 03:45, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> Yes, safety is very important, but it's not a black art. If a student pilot
> can be taught winch launch in 20 or so flights, a rated pilot can be taught
> in less. There's no reason that a good pilot shouldn't be able to
> concentrate on a launch for 30 - 40- seconds. The envelope is narrow but
> not extremely so. Don't overstate the case.
>
> Bill Daniels

Agree with the basics Bill but in practice its teaching all the
things that can go wrong that usually takes another 100 or more
launches. Correcting launch problems needs to become automatic, quick,
decisive and 'right first time' to make winching safe.

Ian

[Tom Gardner]

On Aug 16, 4:36 pm, nimbusgb > wrote:
> On 16 Aug, 03:45, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, safety is very important, but it's not a black art. If a student pilot
> > can be taught winch launch in 20 or so flights, a rated pilot can be taught
> > in less. There's no reason that a good pilot shouldn't be able to
> > concentrate on a launch for 30 - 40- seconds. The envelope is narrow but
> > not extremely so. Don't overstate the case.
>
> > Bill Daniels
>
> Agree with the basics Bill but in practice its teaching all the
> things that can go wrong that usually takes another 100 or more
> launches. Correcting launch problems needs to become automatic, quick,
> decisive and 'right first time' to make winching safe.

True, but is is any different for aerotows?

I have limited experience, so I have to rely on articles like
<http://www.eglider.org/newsarticles/preventinglaunchingaccidents.htm>

tom gardner

[Bill Daniels]

"nimbusgb" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 16 Aug, 03:45, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>> Yes, safety is very important, but it's not a black art. If a student
>> pilot
>> can be taught winch launch in 20 or so flights, a rated pilot can be
>> taught
>> in less. There's no reason that a good pilot shouldn't be able to
>> concentrate on a launch for 30 - 40- seconds. The envelope is narrow but
>> not extremely so. Don't overstate the case.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>
> Agree with the basics Bill but in practice its teaching all the
> things that can go wrong that usually takes another 100 or more
> launches. Correcting launch problems needs to become automatic, quick,
> decisive and 'right first time' to make winching safe.
>
> Ian

Yes, there are a million things that can go wrong but the pilot's response
is pretty much the same for all of them.

1. Fly the glider.
2. If anything feels funny, release.
3. Nose down ASAP but don't dive into the ground.
4. Wait for safe airspeed before doing anything else.
5. Land straight ahead if possible, or if too high, fly a tight 360 pattern.

The BGA winch safety poster is a very good start and we do use it. But note
that it is just a poster and not a 400 page manual on how to fly a winch
launch safely. That alone suggests that the safety issue in not that
complicated.

We appreciate the UK involvement but there are very significant differences
between the situation in the US and the UK which must be addressed. In the
US every pilot was trained in aero tow which introduces a few unique
problems. For one, US pilots are unaccustomed to monitoring airspeed during
ground roll and lift off - the tug pilot does that for them. They must be
taught to check for safe airspeed before entering the climb on a winch
launch. For another, most aero tow trained pilots will try to continue a
takeoff roll even if a wing touches the ground. On winch launch, they MUST
release if a wingtip touches.

Look, RAS is NOT the place to discuss flight instruction. That should be
one-to-one with a winch qualified flight instructor.

Bill Daniels

[Dan G]

On Aug 16, 5:23 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:

> Yes, there are a million things that can go wrong but the pilot's response
> is pretty much the same for all of them.
>
> 1. Fly the glider.
> 2. If anything feels funny, release.
> 3. Nose down ASAP but don't dive into the ground.
> 4. Wait for safe airspeed before doing anything else.
> 5. Land straight ahead if possible, or if too high, fly a tight 360 pattern.

I would add

6. During the 360, keep looking over the nose to monitor & maintain
the glider's attitude and speed. Don't bother looking anywhere else.
At that height, there's little chance of recovering from a stall or
spin.


Dan

[Vaughn Simon]

"Tom Gardner" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> And a "good" site. I've heard rumours of sites where, if there is
> a break at certain heights, you are almost guaranteed to end
> up in some trees. I wonder if that is true or merely a bar story.

I hate to sound repetative, but is this not is also true with aerotow at
some sites and with some combinations of glider & towplane? (I made this a
question, but I have seen enough trees at close range to tell you for a fact
that it IS true)

Vaughn

[Brian[_1_]]

On Aug 16, 7:31 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:
> "Tom Gardner" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > And a "good" site. I've heard rumours of sites where, if there is
> > a break at certain heights, you are almost guaranteed to end
> > up in some trees. I wonder if that is true or merely a bar story.
>
> I hate to sound repetative, but is this not is also true with aerotow at
> some sites and with some combinations of glider & towplane? (I made this a
> question, but I have seen enough trees at close range to tell you for a fact
> that it IS true)
>
> Vaughn

My experience has been that I have many times been on aerotow in
positions that I could not make it back to the airport. Less often I
have had times were I didn't have any good options for landing on
aerotow.

My ground launch experience is that I have never been a position that
while launching I could not make it back to the runway. I have done
actual or simluate rope breaks from every altitude on the ground
launch. I have had the winch fail on me several times and if properly
prepared for them they are a non-event.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[Del C]

In the UK a good briefing and about 5 or 6 practice
launch failures is usually enough to safely send aerotow
trained pilots solo on the winch.

Del C

At 15:42 16 August 2007, Nimbusgb wrote:
>
>Agree with the basics Bill but in practice its teaching
>all the
>things that can go wrong that usually takes another
>100 or more
>launches. Correcting launch problems needs to become
>automatic, quick,
>decisive and 'right first time' to make winching safe.
>
>Ian
>
>
>