At risk of starting a religious war.

[Bruce]

As far as I know the criticisms of the DuoDiscus related to
Cockpit space - particularly in the front.
Outlanding capability - effectiveness of airbrakes.
Unsprung and low clearance undercarriage

So Schempp-Hirth went away and improved the breed. Not least I am sure because
the DG1000 apparently had a better overall polar. (DGs test in 2000 was against
a Duo, not a Duo x...)

Despite the "x" being first flown in June 2005 and certified in February 2006 -
I have not found much reporting on the new improved Duo-Discus. Given the nature
of RAS I am sure I can get some opinions.

Has anyone flown the newest version of the Duo-Discus with it's bigger cockpit?
Who is prepared to comment on the relative success of the "x" modifications
(winglets and revised airfoils and landing flaps and sprung undercarriage).

Seems to me there would be more discussion on this , or do two seaters not
generate the same passion?

Is it better at XC?
Is it safer XC now?
Can the change in L/D be quantified (SH claim the same 1:45)

[Markus Gayda]

Bruce schrieb:
> Has anyone flown the newest version of the Duo-Discus with it's bigger
> cockpit? Who is prepared to comment on the relative success of the "x"
> modifications (winglets and revised airfoils and landing flaps and
> sprung undercarriage).
>
> Seems to me there would be more discussion on this , or do two seaters
> not generate the same passion?
>
> Is it better at XC?
> Is it safer XC now?
> Can the change in L/D be quantified (SH claim the same 1:45)

I am afraid, you will get exactly ZERO answers, as the DuoX does NOT yet have
the bigger cockpit.
The big cockpit made its maiden-flight about a month ago and is not yet in
serial-production AFAIK.

CU
Markus

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Bruce wrote:
>Has anyone flown the newest version of the Duo-Discus with it's bigger cockpit?
>Who is prepared to comment on the relative success of the "x" modifications
>(winglets and revised airfoils and landing flaps and sprung undercarriage).

>Is it better at XC?
>Is it safer XC now?
>Can the change in L/D be quantified (SH claim the same 1:45)

I hear rumor Jack Harkin will be flyin his "X" out of Montague this weekend
17-19.
He is a contributor to the Wiiliams' Soaring forum. Perhaps you may post your
query there for his opinions.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200708/1

[Rick Culbertson]

On Aug 17, 10:15 am, "Kloudy via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote:
> Bruce wrote:
> >Has anyone flown the newest version of the Duo-Discus with it's bigger cockpit?
> >Who is prepared to comment on the relative success of the "x" modifications
> >(winglets and revised airfoils and landing flaps and sprung undercarriage).
> >Is it better at XC?
> >Is it safer XC now?
> >Can the change in L/D be quantified (SH claim the same 1:45)
>
> I hear rumor Jack Harkin will be flyin his "X" out of Montague this weekend
> 17-19.
> He is a contributor to the Wiiliams' Soaring forum. Perhaps you may post your
> query there for his opinions.
>
> --
> Message posted via AviationKB.comhttp://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200708/1

FYI, Gavin flew a new Duo with winglets at the R-9 in Parowan Utah, I
don't know whose it was but perhaps he could comment on it's
performance improvements.
RC-21

[Dan G]

On Aug 17, 4:15 pm, Markus Gayda > wrote:
> I am afraid, you will get exactly ZERO answers, as the DuoX does NOT yet have
> the bigger cockpit.
> The big cockpit made its maiden-flight about a month ago and is not yet in
> serial-production AFAIK.

Indeed, there's a Duo X at our club and it has the same fuselage as
the original Duo, which in turn is largely (completely? I can't
remember, not been in a Janus this year) the same as the Janus of the
early '70s, and you still share the front seat with the rear pilot's
feet and have absolutely nowhere to put anything.

The gear seems a bit higher, though nothing like a DG1000's. I've not
flown in it (just had a good poke about :-) ), so can't comment on
performance (and let's be honest, who would notice). I've heard
positive pilot comments about the landing flaps though - comes down
much better than the original.


Dan

[JS]

Have flown the Duo Discus at California City, the Duo Discus X at
Heppenheim and the DG-1000 at Mannheim, but not the Duo Discus XL yet!
The nicest handling of the three I've flown is the Duo Discus X.
If you think the original Duo is nimble, try the newer one. Williams
Soaring can check you out in "DDX". Believe Gavin was flying Delta
Delta X-Ray.
I think Schempp-Hirth will be in production of the XLs after the
holiday.
Jim

[[email protected]]

Yes, DDX was the glider Gavin was flying at R-9. It was also at
Hilton Cup, Williams, and will be in Montague this weekend. It is
Jack Harkin's. I flew it XC a couple of weeks ago and can compare it
(favorably) to the Duo but don't have recent experience in the DG to
make a comparison there. I quite like flying it. Small cockpit,
true, and I'm large, but a couple of 5 hour flights did not leave me
with cramps or bruises. It's a beaut to fly and I highly recommend
it. DDX will be stationed at Minden soon and available for XC
training with Jack and other pilots. Contact me for booking
information.

Fred LaSor

[Bruce]

JS wrote:
> Have flown the Duo Discus at California City, the Duo Discus X at
> Heppenheim and the DG-1000 at Mannheim, but not the Duo Discus XL yet!
> The nicest handling of the three I've flown is the Duo Discus X.
> If you think the original Duo is nimble, try the newer one. Williams
> Soaring can check you out in "DDX". Believe Gavin was flying Delta
> Delta X-Ray.
> I think Schempp-Hirth will be in production of the XLs after the
> holiday.
> Jim
>
Hi Jim

I can confirm they will be producing the large cockpit model after the end of
next week. (When they return from the summer holidays)

Not sure I like the idea of an XL - I mean XL clothes are bad enough but does
the glider also have to say that? I can just see the look on the prospective
student, OK lets get you into the XL...

Regrettably I am about 15,000 km from Minden so flying DDX is out - but Dick
Bradley will have a Duo X at Bloemfontein later this year. I shall have to
investigate.

As I understand it the large cockpit is the first major shape change to the
Schempp-hirth 2 seater fuselage that originated with the Janus.
I gather there have been material and internal changes to improve impact
absorption and pilot protection.
It apparently has more space(funny that), and storage space, a upward hinging
instrument panel in the front seat and a divider between front and back seats.
Presumably this will make a tiny dent in the polar, but significantly improve
comfort for big lunks like me (186cm and 110kg)
I have also only looked at a DG1000, as opposed to flying one. The high
undercarriage makes entry and egress a little challenging. I know it is
essentially the same fuselage as the 505, but it looks huge on the ground. The
Duo looks more dainty.

Having flown a couple of types with a two part canopy I fail to understand how
people can claim the DG has better visibility from the back seat. Are the seats
stepped, so the back seat driver sees over the head in front? This is usually no
problem for me as I am usually very close to the canopy, but I can see why
shorter folk would want it.

The opinion seems to be that the aerodynamic changes have improved handling
further. Never a bad thing.
Has anyone got a real world feel for performance of the X?

As an aside, the only time I have flown in the same sky as a DG1000 I was
pleased to be able to out climb it, with a passenger in both, in our vintage
Bergfalke II/55. Of course at the top of the thermal I went pottering around
locally and he rolled level and disappeared at warp speed. But not before giving
me time to admire the beautiful lines from above - there are some advantages to
ancient trainers.

Bruce

[JS]

On Aug 18, 5:13 am, Bruce > wrote:

> Having flown a couple of types with a two part canopy I fail to understand how
> people can claim the DG has better visibility from the back seat. Are the seats
> stepped, so the back seat driver sees over the head in front? This is usually no
> problem for me as I am usually very close to the canopy, but I can see why
> shorter folk would want it.
>

The rear seat of the DG-1000 has adjustable height, a unique feature.
Jim

[Peter Purdie]

>At 17:06 18 August 2007, Js wrote:

>The rear seat of the DG-1000 has adjustable height,
>a unique feature.
>Jim
>
>

The DG rear seat adjust is by a variable length strap,
similar to a seat harness adjust. Unfortunately, on
a heavy landing the strap fitting can break at the
seat, resulting in the pilot accelerating down until
he meets the fuselage coming up, and causing serious
back injury. This has happened on a DG500 (identical
arrangement) and the answer on British gliders was
to remove the strap and instead adjust the height by
different thicknesses of shock absorbing foam. With
the change in airworthiness to conform to Europe it
is much more difficult to do this officially now, but
if I had a DG1000 instead of an ASH25 (I suffer the
worse handling - we all have to make sacrifices.......)
there would be no strap, and shock-foam under my rear
seat.

[Gary Emerson]

Anyone know what a Duo X Turbo is running for US customers right now -
ballpark? I know with the exchange rate it's going to be pretty
painful, but I'd love to know what the ballpark is...

Any idea what the new XL cockpit is going to do to the price?



Bruce wrote:
> As far as I know the criticisms of the DuoDiscus related to
> Cockpit space - particularly in the front.
> Outlanding capability - effectiveness of airbrakes.
> Unsprung and low clearance undercarriage
>
> So Schempp-Hirth went away and improved the breed. Not least I am sure
> because the DG1000 apparently had a better overall polar. (DGs test in
> 2000 was against a Duo, not a Duo x...)
>
> Despite the "x" being first flown in June 2005 and certified in February
> 2006 - I have not found much reporting on the new improved Duo-Discus.
> Given the nature of RAS I am sure I can get some opinions.
>
> Has anyone flown the newest version of the Duo-Discus with it's bigger
> cockpit? Who is prepared to comment on the relative success of the "x"
> modifications (winglets and revised airfoils and landing flaps and
> sprung undercarriage).
>
> Seems to me there would be more discussion on this , or do two seaters
> not generate the same passion?
>
> Is it better at XC?
> Is it safer XC now?
> Can the change in L/D be quantified (SH claim the same 1:45)

[JS]

On Aug 18, 6:58 pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> Anyone know what a Duo X Turbo is running for US customers right now -
> ballpark? I know with the exchange rate it's going to be pretty
> painful, but I'd love to know what the ballpark is...
>
> Any idea what the new XL cockpit is going to do to the price?
>

Best sit down and call Monty or Heinz for that...
Jim

[Dan G]

On Aug 18, 1:13 pm, Bruce > wrote:
> The high
> undercarriage makes entry and egress a little challenging.

I thought it was too until the owner of one showed me that you just
sit on the sill facing away and then swing your legs in. Once you know
to do that, I can confirm personally that it's easy to get into.


Dan

[Greg Arnold]

Bruce wrote:
> JS wrote:
>> Have flown the Duo Discus at California City, the Duo Discus X at
>> Heppenheim and the DG-1000 at Mannheim, but not the Duo Discus XL yet!
>> The nicest handling of the three I've flown is the Duo Discus X.
>> If you think the original Duo is nimble, try the newer one. Williams
>> Soaring can check you out in "DDX". Believe Gavin was flying Delta
>> Delta X-Ray.
>> I think Schempp-Hirth will be in production of the XLs after the
>> holiday.
>> Jim
>>
> Hi Jim
>
> I can confirm they will be producing the large cockpit model after the
> end of next week. (When they return from the summer holidays)
>
>
>
> Bruce

Have they lengthened the fuselage, or have they merely rearranged the
seating position within the existing fuselage (while extending the
canopy aft)?

[Bruce]

Gary Emerson wrote:
> Anyone know what a Duo X Turbo is running for US customers right now -
> ballpark? I know with the exchange rate it's going to be pretty
> painful, but I'd love to know what the ballpark is...
>
> Any idea what the new XL cockpit is going to do to the price?
>
Apparently it is a no cost change. I don't know whether they will continue
offering the smaller cockpit .

>
>
> Bruce wrote:
>> As far as I know the criticisms of the DuoDiscus related to
>> Cockpit space - particularly in the front.
>> Outlanding capability - effectiveness of airbrakes.
>> Unsprung and low clearance undercarriage
>>
>> So Schempp-Hirth went away and improved the breed. Not least I am sure
>> because the DG1000 apparently had a better overall polar. (DGs test in
>> 2000 was against a Duo, not a Duo x...)
>>
>> Despite the "x" being first flown in June 2005 and certified in
>> February 2006 - I have not found much reporting on the new improved
>> Duo-Discus. Given the nature of RAS I am sure I can get some opinions.
>>
>> Has anyone flown the newest version of the Duo-Discus with it's bigger
>> cockpit? Who is prepared to comment on the relative success of the "x"
>> modifications (winglets and revised airfoils and landing flaps and
>> sprung undercarriage).
>>
>> Seems to me there would be more discussion on this , or do two seaters
>> not generate the same passion?
>>
>> Is it better at XC?
>> Is it safer XC now?
>> Can the change in L/D be quantified (SH claim the same 1:45)