Towing glider trailers with a VW Jetta Wagon?

[Allan[_2_]]

I have one and I'm seriously thinking about putting a hitch on it to
(among other things) tow glider trailers with.

Anyone out there doing it?

What hitch do you have?

Which engine? I have the 1.9 TDI, which I think has plenty of power
for it...

-Allan

[J a c k]

Allan wrote:
> I have one and I'm seriously thinking about putting a hitch on it to
> (among other things) tow glider trailers with.
>
> Anyone out there doing it?
>
> What hitch do you have?
>
> Which engine? I have the 1.9 TDI, which I think has plenty of power
> for it...


Well, Canada has some impressive topography, Allan, so it might depend
on where you are towing. I like my '99 5.0L V8 Ford Explorer for the
eastern part of the USA. My Cobra trailer has a 2200 Max Gross Weight
which is WELL within the Ex's capabilities, but I prefer not being
reminded constantly that I am moving something extra down the highway.
And, don't forget, there certainly are heavier combinations than my
DG-303/Cobra.

If you like the idea of operating under a significant power limitation
_and_ you never leave the the table-flat areas of Canada, then you may
be satisfied. You may find more apropos responses from people who deal
with European autos and road conditions on an everyday basis, but then
expectations in North America can be very different. Not the least of
those is that you will be expected to keep up with the rest of us who
ARE driving the 5.0 L models and who are relatively unperturbed by
either stop-and-go traffic or rising terrain.


Jack

[Allan[_2_]]

Well, no doubt a V8 is going to get you there easier and faster, but
I'll still make better time 'cause I'll only be stopping 1/8 as many
times for fuel ;)

Seriously though, I have no doubt I can drag the weight behind the
Jetta, but what I'm really in need of is some advice from someone who
has a wagon with a hitch. I've done some poking around and there
aren't many options for hitches for the wagon for some reason...

-Allan

[GM]

On Aug 21, 8:06 pm, Allan > wrote:
> Well, no doubt a V8 is going to get you there easier and faster, but
> I'll still make better time 'cause I'll only be stopping 1/8 as many
> times for fuel ;)
>
> Seriously though, I have no doubt I can drag the weight behind the
> Jetta, but what I'm really in need of is some advice from someone who
> has a wagon with a hitch. I've done some poking around and there
> aren't many options for hitches for the wagon for some reason...
>
> -Allan

Allan,

what model year do you have?
I don't have a Jetta Wagon but a TDI Sedan. Mine is a '06 model with
100HP, manual transmission and I put a hitch on it. The Jetta will
tow my Aluminum Schreder type trailer with a Libelle H301 in it just
fine. Granted, I live in South Carolina and I do not have to negotiate
steep grades.

Uli Neumann

[[email protected]]

On Aug 21, 5:06 pm, Allan > wrote:
> Well, no doubt a V8 is going to get you there easier and faster, but
> I'll still make better time 'cause I'll only be stopping 1/8 as many
> times for fuel ;)
>
> Seriously though, I have no doubt I can drag the weight behind the
> Jetta, but what I'm really in need of is some advice from someone who
> has a wagon with a hitch. I've done some poking around and there
> aren't many options for hitches for the wagon for some reason...
>
> -Allan

Allan, I've got a similar car and the same airplane and trailer.
After worrying about it for months I put a hitch on my 2000 Volvo V40
wagon. Rated to tow 2,000 lbs and max weight on the bar 200 lbs. I
towed my DG303 and Cobra from Arlington WA (AWO) over the fairly easy
mountain pass (I90, 3,400') to eastern WA (EPH). I've got a 1.9 turbo,
all stock. Towed great, but did tend to sway above 55 mph. I'm
wondering about one of those anti-sway hitches. I did 55 mph or better
in all situations including going over the pass and got just under 23
mpg. Normally the temp gauge needle is dead horizontal and I noticed
that the mountain driving kicked it up a tiny amount. Going down the
other side was a total non-event, hardly ever touched the brakes. I
Love That Car. I swear if the car quit tomorrow I'd buy an '04 (last
year made).

Brian

[Andy Gough]

Allan,

Go ahead and put your hitch on and start towing, there is no problem.
I drove the exact combination in Germany a few years ago after the
worlds in Bayreuth. My cousin leant me his VW Golf Combi TDI which is
essentially the same model as your Jetta. I was so impressed when I
returned to Toronto I was determined to buy one. As it turned out I
was a few years too early the Jetta station wagon TDI in North America
was still a thing of the future. In Germany I carried 5 passengers
towing a glider trailer and was only slowed down on the steepest
hills, even then it just kept pulling, just a little slower. Best part
of the story is that this was a driving school car complete with dual
controls and 280,000 km on the odometer.

Go for it!

[Eric Greenwell]

J a c k wrote:
> Allan wrote:
Not the least of
> those is that you will be expected to keep up with the rest of us who
> ARE driving the 5.0 L models and who are relatively unperturbed by
> either stop-and-go traffic or rising terrain.

I don't think that's really an issue, as there are plenty of trucks that
will be much slower off the mark or up the hill. Not to mention people
like me, with a motorhome and a heavier trailer, that have even less
power compared to the weight. If it's a four lane highway, the faster
vehicles can pass; if it's a two lane road where it's hard to pass, pull
over when you've collected a few cars behind you so they can get on
their way.

The real concern is the stability of the car and trailer at the speeds
you will tow. Probably talking to other people already doing it the best
way to learn about that.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Bruce]

As ever Eric has it right.

I live at 5000" MSL and spent years happily towing with a 1600cc hatchback.

Recently went over to the dark side and got a Volvo XC70. Towing the same rig
(single axle trailer with a single seater inside)The XC was purchased for it's
comfort, ability to swallow growing family and to be able to confidently visit
wilder parts of the country. (to say nothing of the hatch's 12 years and 250K km)

My observations for towing glider trailer.
You don't need more power. The 1.9TDi will tow it very well, and particularly so
at altitude where the turbocharger will compensate for much of the altitude
effect. (and yes I have driven long distance in the states)
The extra power from the 2.5l turbo on the Volvo is really nice in that it
reduces driver effort. With an auto gearbox and that much power available it is
effortless towing the 600kg glider combination. But you only win a few less gear
changes.

The big difference is in safe towing speed. The hatchback weighed ~1240kg the
XC70 weighs 1780Kg. Wheelbase on the XC70 is a good 500mm longer. 4 wheel drive
increases stability further, as do all the electronic aids. As long as the
trailers aerodynamics, and tyres and brakes are up to it...
A wayward swaying trailer and car indicates bad aerodynamics and balance more
than weight of combination.

End result - With the hatchback I was able to tow at 120km/h in still
conditions, but any wind or traffic and I had to slow to 100-110 to prevent
getting pushed around by the trailer. Every so often you would get trapped
behind slow moving traffic in the mountains, without the power to pass safely.
The heavier longer car is unperturbed by most disturbances on the trailer.

Fuel consumption - Same trip - primarily freeway, with some substantial mountain
passes included.
1600cc Hatchback - 9.5l/100km. Average speed ~95km/h
2500cc Turbo wagon - 11.5l/100km Average speed 116km/h

The main advantage the bigger car has is in acceleration, particularly for
overtaking. The places where the smaller car would have had difficulty going
faster tend to have lower speed limits so the performance difference is somewhat
neutralised.
Conversely the smaller car is much easier to manoeuvre and cheaper to run and
live with day to day.

The jetta will have advantages in the twisty bits over the SUVs - physics are
against something that weighs that much with a high centre of gravity and all
the design compromises. Tried it once, never again.

If you drive within the capabilities of your combination you will enjoy the
trip, and it does make a big difference to your average speed having to stop to
feed the beast. The TDi will really test your endurance if you want it to.



Eric Greenwell wrote:
> J a c k wrote:
>> Allan wrote:
> Not the least of
>> those is that you will be expected to keep up with the rest of us who
>> ARE driving the 5.0 L models and who are relatively unperturbed by
>> either stop-and-go traffic or rising terrain.
>
> I don't think that's really an issue, as there are plenty of trucks that
> will be much slower off the mark or up the hill. Not to mention people
> like me, with a motorhome and a heavier trailer, that have even less
> power compared to the weight. If it's a four lane highway, the faster
> vehicles can pass; if it's a two lane road where it's hard to pass, pull
> over when you've collected a few cars behind you so they can get on
> their way.
>
> The real concern is the stability of the car and trailer at the speeds
> you will tow. Probably talking to other people already doing it the best
> way to learn about that.
>

[Dan G]

On Aug 22, 4:51 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> The real concern is the stability of the car and trailer at the speeds
> you will tow. Probably talking to other people already doing it the best
> way to learn about that.

Trailer stability is all about weight and distribution, and there's
several key things which you should do. If done, it will be very
unlikely that you need a stabiliser, and prevention is better than
cure!

*Make sure that the laden mass of the trailer does not exceed 85% of
the laden mass of the tow car, and preferably less.

*Have 7% of the trailer's actual mass on the hitch. Measure with some
bathroom scales and a length of wood cut to the correct height to fit
between hitch and the scales. It's important to get this number right
- no more, no less. If the 7% value is more than the car's noseweight
limit, you'll just have to keep within that limit and accept a less
than optimum noseweight.

*Carry heavy items in the car, not the trailer, but make sure you
don't exceed the maximum axle load (or end up with your car dragging
it's arse along the road - keep it level). I often put the heaviest
items in the passenger footwell if I'm travelling alone.

*Look after your tyres on both car and trailer. Blow-outs can really
ruin your trip (and your glider!). Trailer tyres should be replaced
every five years and definitely every seven - rubber ages naturally,
whether you use them or not. In winter ideally take the wheels off and
store them level in a cool dry place wrapped in hessian (not plastic),
or at least wrap the tyres in hessian on the trailer to keep the UV
off.

*Make sure you run the correct tyre pressures all round. Check before
you set off on every trip. A tyre with low pressure will run hot and
could blow.

BTW You'll have no trouble towing with a turbo diesel. Being force-
charged they have no altitude issues, unlike normall-aspirated engines
that lose power with height, and with the lighter overall trainweight
will leave trucks and SUVs standing (as has been said, it's power to
weight that matters, not absolute power).


Dan

[Allan[_2_]]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Now I just have to find a place to install a hitch at a decent price!

-Allan

[Mike[_8_]]

I used U-Haul to install hitches on two different Volvo's. Found them
to be the least expensive and their equipment works very well.



On Aug 22, 6:11 am, Allan > wrote:
> Thanks for all the advice guys.
>
> Now I just have to find a place to install a hitch at a decent price!
>
> -Allan

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-08-21, Allan > wrote:
> Which engine? I have the 1.9 TDI, which I think has plenty of power
> for it...

Turbodiesels are EXCELLENT for towing. My Dad races F2 motorcycle
sidecar outfits. He used to have a 1.9l Peugeot turbodiesel, and would
tow a large caravan with the sidecar, tools, spare engines, full
sleeping accomodation (although a little ratty!) with no problems - that
caravan was a lot less aerodynamic and quite a bit heavier than a glider
trailer.

That engine did something like 300,000 miles before the headgasket
finally went, too.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Papa3]

On Aug 22, 11:18 am, Dylan Smith > wrote:
> On 2007-08-21, Allan > wrote:
>
> > Which engine? I have the 1.9 TDI, which I think has plenty of power
> > for it...
>
> Turbodiesels are EXCELLENT for towing. My Dad races F2 motorcycle
> sidecar outfits. He used to have a 1.9l Peugeot turbodiesel, and would
> tow a large caravan with the sidecar, tools, spare engines, full
> sleeping accomodation (although a little ratty!) with no problems - that
> caravan was a lot less aerodynamic and quite a bit heavier than a glider
> trailer.
>
> That engine did something like 300,000 miles before the headgasket
> finally went, too.
>
> --
> Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
> Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute:http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

Alan,

I responded last night, but looks like the post disappeared into the
electron cloud.

Others have pretty much covered it. What I was going to add:

- When I looked at the 2004 Jetta wagon, I researched hitches and
found several. Hidden Hitch had a nice, bolt-on unit IIRC. I ended
up with the much heavier Passat V6 with 4 Motion, which is a fantastic
tow vehicle.
- I towed for years with several VWs ranging from a 1982 Rabbit
Diesel (not so hot) to a couple of Jetta Sedans (okay).
- Make sure your trailer has good surge brakes and DON'T go with the
anti-sway bar which,at least with those I researched, disabled the
surge brake.
- Just be aware that panic stops and/or turning maneuvers are a
little riskier with smaller vehicles, but it is manageable if you are
a little conservative.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3) towed by Passat V6 Wagon with 4 Motion

[Michael Huber]

> *Have 7% of the trailer's actual mass on the hitch. Measure with some
> bathroom scales and a length of wood cut to the correct height to fit
> between hitch and the scales. It's important to get this number right
> - no more, no less. If the 7% value is more than the car's noseweight
> limit, you'll just have to keep within that limit and accept a less
> than optimum noseweight.

Keep the trailers inertia about the vertical axis low, this means never put
weight in the back to counterbalance too much weight in the front. Heavy
items should be near the center of gravity of the trailer, a drawer near the
axle is the best place if heavy items have to be in the trailer.

Michael

[Del C]

Ye Gods! No wonder we are getting climate change if
all US pilots run gas guzzlers like that! VW Jetta
sized cars routinely tow glider trailers in Europe
without any problems. My 1.6 litre turbo diesel will
tow heavy two-seaters up the steepest hills in the
UK.

Del C

At 23:00 21 August 2007, J A C K wrote:
>Allan wrote:
>> I have one and I'm seriously thinking about putting
>>a hitch on it to
>> (among other things) tow glider trailers with.
>>
>> Anyone out there doing it?
>>
>> What hitch do you have?
>>
>> Which engine? I have the 1.9 TDI, which I think has
>>plenty of power
>> for it...
>
>
>Well, Canada has some impressive topography, Allan,
>so it might depend
>on where you are towing. I like my '99 5.0L V8 Ford
>Explorer for the
>eastern part of the USA. My Cobra trailer has a 2200
>Max Gross Weight
>which is WELL within the Ex's capabilities, but I prefer
>not being
>reminded constantly that I am moving something extra
>down the highway.
>And, don't forget, there certainly are heavier combinations
>than my
>DG-303/Cobra.
>
>If you like the idea of operating under a significant
>power limitation
>_and_ you never leave the the table-flat areas of Canada,
>then you may
>be satisfied. You may find more apropos responses from
>people who deal
>with European autos and road conditions on an everyday
>basis, but then
>expectations in North America can be very different.
>Not the least of
>those is that you will be expected to keep up with
>the rest of us who
>ARE driving the 5.0 L models and who are relatively
>unperturbed by
>either stop-and-go traffic or rising terrain.
>
>
>Jack
>

[1sl]

Allan wrote:
> Thanks for all the advice guys.
>
> Now I just have to find a place to install a hitch at a decent price!
>
> -Allan
>

Hi Allan,

Didn't see this thread until. I have a 2003 TDI Wagon and use it to tow
my LS1 very comfortably. There are at least two other TDI Jetta Wagons
around here towing gliders and all of us are very happy with the vehicle
as a commuter and for glider transport. You will only use a little more
fuel with the trailer attached. I think the TDI has the large VR6
radiator. The electric cooling fans in my car never operate unless the
air conditioning is activated. I installed a Hidden Hitch (the name
bugs me because the apparatus is so visible). It's necessary that the
installer put one bolt through the cargo area but the rear tow eye is
used to secure the other side. Ziebart was the installer, if you have
them in your area.

My club-mates recently retrieved me from a nearby field. Three of them
arrived in the car and four of us returned with the glider. Weight was
not an issue but it is flat country around here. I find the main
down-side to the Jetta is the low clearance. You will need to be careful
where you drive it off-road.

[Eric Greenwell]

Dan G wrote:

> *Have 7% of the trailer's actual mass on the hitch. Measure with some
> bathroom scales and a length of wood cut to the correct height to fit
> between hitch and the scales. It's important to get this number right
> - no more, no less.

I'm curious about where this 7% number comes from. The number I
routinely see is 10%, and it's always stated as a *minimum*, not an optimum.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Dan G]

On Aug 23, 9:30 pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> I'm curious about where this 7% number comes from. The number I
> routinely see is 10%, and it's always stated as a *minimum*, not an optimum.

The Caravan Club of Great Britain. They contracted Bath University to
do some thorough research in the 1990s using a heavily instrumented
caravan and towcar. TBH, in all the advice above, I was just quoting
them :-).


Dan

[Eric Greenwell]

Dan G wrote:
> On Aug 23, 9:30 pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>> I'm curious about where this 7% number comes from. The number I
>> routinely see is 10%, and it's always stated as a *minimum*, not an optimum.
>
> The Caravan Club of Great Britain. They contracted Bath University to
> do some thorough research in the 1990s using a heavily instrumented
> caravan and towcar. TBH, in all the advice above, I was just quoting
> them :-).

A caravan is quite different creature than a glider trailer, so I'd
hesitate to accept their values without knowing more. Did the 7% figure
apply to single axle trailers towed with standard hitches, meaning no
dampeners or load distributing hitches?

Can you give me a link to the document you are quoting from?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Dan G]

On Aug 24, 1:15 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:

> A caravan is quite different creature than a glider trailer, so I'd
> hesitate to accept their values without knowing more.
>
> Did the 7% figure
> apply to single axle trailers towed with standard hitches, meaning no
> dampeners or load distributing hitches?

Yes - single axle, no dampers. You really shouldn't need one.

>
> Can you give me a link to the document you are quoting from?

The original work from Bath University was published in the Caravan
Club's magazine "En Route" in 1994. They still publish the resulting
guidelines though - there's a limited amount here:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8uqrk

The full details are in the member's handbook.


Dan

[chipsoars]

On Aug 24, 7:59 am, Dan G > wrote:
> On Aug 24, 1:15 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> > A caravan is quite different creature than a glider trailer, so I'd
> > hesitate to accept their values without knowing more.
>
> > Did the 7% figure
> > apply to single axle trailers towed with standard hitches, meaning no
> > dampeners or load distributing hitches?
>
> Yes - single axle, no dampers. You really shouldn't need one.
>
>
>
> > Can you give me a link to the document you are quoting from?
>
> The original work from Bath University was published in the Caravan
> Club's magazine "En Route" in 1994. They still publish the resulting
> guidelines though - there's a limited amount here:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8uqrk
>
> The full details are in the member's handbook.
>
> Dan

I have seen some information published (US) stating that the hitch
tongue weight should be in the 10-15% range for a conventional (not
5th wheel hitch).

I found an excellent guide from Sherline, a scale manufacturer:

http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm

and from CA DMV:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt12.htm

Both use the 10-15% hitch weight.

eTrailer.com sells hitches and uses the same hitch load factor.

Also important is the vehicle loading. The weight on the hitch does
impact vehicle load and it is important to have the entire rig as
level as possible.

Chip F.