Wagons used for towing in Europe

[Papa3]

Hi all,

Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
starting).

Current replacement candidates include:

- Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
- Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
- BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
manufacturers lists a hitch)
- Subara Legacy or Outback

My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
speed on the new polution regs.

Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.

Erik Mann

[JS]

Erik:
Tried to reply to your e-mail address, didn't work.
The Outback is great. Have put 128000 miles on mine and it has towed
Nimbus 3 and AS-H26E no problemo here in the mountainous western
states. Last weekend measured 22MPG towing the 26 at 70 MPH with the A/
C on and up and down passes on I-15. More efficient if you remove
anything (trailer, mountains, A/C, speed). But isn't that what life's
all about?
....Glider, mountains, heat, speed...
Jim

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C about
10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny units).
Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The same
car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after 160,000km.
The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock when
I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the bi-annual
check with $150 on repair.

The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with wet
surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
wheel drive.

"Papa3" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
> to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
> proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
> VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
> been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
> recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
> just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
> and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
> starting).
>
> Current replacement candidates include:
>
> - Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
> - Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
> - BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
> does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
> manufacturers lists a hitch)
> - Subara Legacy or Outback
>
> My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
> Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
> speed on the new polution regs.
>
> Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.
>
> Erik Mann
>

[chipsoars]

On Aug 24, 4:03 am, "Bert Willing" <bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com> wrote:
> I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
> great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C about
> 10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny units).
> Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The same
> car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
> Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after 160,000km.
> The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock when
> I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the bi-annual
> check with $150 on repair.
>
> The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with wet
> surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
> wheel drive.
>
> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
> > to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
> > proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
> > VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
> > been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
> > recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
> > just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
> > and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
> > starting).
>
> > Current replacement candidates include:
>
> > - Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
> > - Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
> > - BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
> > does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
> > manufacturers lists a hitch)
> > - Subara Legacy or Outback
>
> > My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
> > Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
> > speed on the new polution regs.
>
> > Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.
>
> > Erik Mann- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

P3,

I went through the same process in 2004 looking at much the same set
of cars.

I have an 05 Subaru Outback wagon (US) I tow a cobra/27 with. This
has the 6cyl. engine and has no difficulty towing the rig with a 3000
pound rating.

Fuel mileage is pretty much as advertised. I've had only one minor
repair in 55k miles. I'm very satisfied with the car and would buy
another. My hope is FHI develops a diesel variant in the 08-09 time
frame.

Many of the European manufacturers do not warrant their vehicles for
towing, or have very low capacities, something I found quite strange
considering the number of tow hitches I saw on vehicles in the EU
while on business trips.

One of our club members, Q3, put a hitch on a Beemer 5 series. IIRC,
it was not trivial due to something about the wiring.

Chip F
KK jr

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

Forgot to mention that I tow a 1000kg twin axle. Maximum tow weight for my
car is 1600kg.

Most European car manufacturers (if not all, including BMW) do offer
factory-mounted hitches here in Europe.

"chipsoars" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Aug 24, 4:03 am, "Bert Willing" <bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
> whisky.com> wrote:
>> I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
>> great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C
>> about
>> 10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny
>> units).
>> Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The
>> same
>> car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
>> Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after
>> 160,000km.
>> The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock
>> when
>> I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the
>> bi-annual
>> check with $150 on repair.
>>
>> The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with
>> wet
>> surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
>> wheel drive.
>>
>> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi all,
>>
>> > Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
>> > to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
>> > proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
>> > VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
>> > been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
>> > recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
>> > just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
>> > and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
>> > starting).
>>
>> > Current replacement candidates include:
>>
>> > - Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
>> > - Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
>> > - BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
>> > does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
>> > manufacturers lists a hitch)
>> > - Subara Legacy or Outback
>>
>> > My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
>> > Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
>> > speed on the new polution regs.
>>
>> > Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.
>>
>> > Erik Mann- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> P3,
>
> I went through the same process in 2004 looking at much the same set
> of cars.
>
> I have an 05 Subaru Outback wagon (US) I tow a cobra/27 with. This
> has the 6cyl. engine and has no difficulty towing the rig with a 3000
> pound rating.
>
> Fuel mileage is pretty much as advertised. I've had only one minor
> repair in 55k miles. I'm very satisfied with the car and would buy
> another. My hope is FHI develops a diesel variant in the 08-09 time
> frame.
>
> Many of the European manufacturers do not warrant their vehicles for
> towing, or have very low capacities, something I found quite strange
> considering the number of tow hitches I saw on vehicles in the EU
> while on business trips.
>
> One of our club members, Q3, put a hitch on a Beemer 5 series. IIRC,
> it was not trivial due to something about the wiring.
>
> Chip F
> KK jr
>

[chipsoars]

On Aug 24, 9:01 am, "Bert Willing" <bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com> wrote:
> Forgot to mention that I tow a 1000kg twin axle. Maximum tow weight for my
> car is 1600kg.
>
> Most European car manufacturers (if not all, including BMW) do offer
> factory-mounted hitches here in Europe.
>
> "chipsoars" > wrote in message
>
> ps.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 24, 4:03 am, "Bert Willing" <bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
> > whisky.com> wrote:
> >> I run a Saab 9-3 (turbo-charged gas engine, 2l / 195 hp) which does just
> >> great in the Alps. Consumption is fully charged with trailer and A/C
> >> about
> >> 10.5 liters per 100km (I leave you the transformation to your funny
> >> units).
> >> Very calm driving at 100 km/h with the engine running at 2000rpm. The
> >> same
> >> car with a turbodiesel engine will eat about 2 liters less.
> >> Don't know of the life time yet as the leasing gets renewed after
> >> 160,000km.
> >> The Saab 900 I used to drive before the 9-3 had 350,000km on the clock
> >> when
> >> I closed the door for the last time - and it just had passed the
> >> bi-annual
> >> check with $150 on repair.
>
> >> The limit I experience is that on steep slopes uphill, especially with
> >> wet
> >> surface, it is difficult to get all the power onto the road with a front
> >> wheel drive.
>
> >> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> >> > Hi all,
>
> >> > Following up on the recent thread regarding the VW Jetta, I'm curious
> >> > to find out what other station wagons (not SUVs, not hatchbacks, but
> >> > proper wagons) folks are using in Europe. I'm currently using a 2002
> >> > VW Passat VR6 Wagon (Variant) with the 4motion drive train and it's
> >> > been wonderful as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately, as is typical of more
> >> > recent VW gas (petrol) powered vehicles, it seems to be falling apart
> >> > just as it hit 120,000 miles (complete replacement of cooling system
> >> > and sensors, all 6 coils shot, suspiciously loud valve noise
> >> > starting).
>
> >> > Current replacement candidates include:
>
> >> > - Another Passat wagon if VW starts importing the TDI for 2008
> >> > - Maybe the Jetta wagon instead
> >> > - BMW 325xi if I can find out whether there are tow hitches (BMW US
> >> > does not list towing capacity and none of the aftermarket hitch
> >> > manufacturers lists a hitch)
> >> > - Subara Legacy or Outback
>
> >> > My first preference is a Diesel for multiple reasons.
> >> > Unfortunately, there's a lull in the US while manufacturers come up to
> >> > speed on the new polution regs.
>
> >> > Any thoughts or alternatives for vehicles in this class appreciated.
>
> >> > Erik Mann- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > P3,
>
> > I went through the same process in 2004 looking at much the same set
> > of cars.
>
> > I have an 05 Subaru Outback wagon (US) I tow a cobra/27 with. This
> > has the 6cyl. engine and has no difficulty towing the rig with a 3000
> > pound rating.
>
> > Fuel mileage is pretty much as advertised. I've had only one minor
> > repair in 55k miles. I'm very satisfied with the car and would buy
> > another. My hope is FHI develops a diesel variant in the 08-09 time
> > frame.
>
> > Many of the European manufacturers do not warrant their vehicles for
> > towing, or have very low capacities, something I found quite strange
> > considering the number of tow hitches I saw on vehicles in the EU
> > while on business trips.
>
> > One of our club members, Q3, put a hitch on a Beemer 5 series. IIRC,
> > it was not trivial due to something about the wiring.
>
> > Chip F
> > KK jr- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bert,

what I meant to say is that EU manufacturers may warrant for towing in
the EU, the warranty does not extend to the US. The C230 I used to
have specifically stated that towing voided the warranty, yet I saw
plenty of hitches on MB's across the pond. It doesn't seem to make a
great deal of sense.

Chip

[Papa3]

On Aug 24, 9:01 am, "Bert Willing" <bw_no_spam_ple...@tango-
whisky.com> wrote:
> Forgot to mention that I tow a 1000kg twin axle. Maximum tow weight for my
> car is 1600kg.
>
> Most European car manufacturers (if not all, including BMW) do offer
> factory-mounted hitches here in Europe.
>
>

That's an interesting rub. I've had the same experience in
Germany. My cousin's BMW 325 wagon had the standard gooseneck
hitch. Talking to the US BMW reps results in a blank stare.

The problem I have is that several manufacturers threaten to void the
warranty if you tow with an unapproved vehicle here. On the one
hand, I'm not overly concerned with that. On the other, if you do
happen to get unlucky and get a lemon, you could be in for a real
hassle.

The Subaru has been in the lead in my short list, but I may wait and
see whether any of the TDI engines make it back for either the early
2008 or mid-season 2008 release.

Anyone specifically towing with the BMW 3 series wagon?

[John Galloway[_1_]]

The UK magazine 'What Car' published a supplement magazine
on towcars a month or so ago. They tested 50 (non
US) vehicles in the full range of sizes from Golfs
up to Range Rovers. The 'clear winner' (their words)
overall was the VW Passat 2.0 TDI Sport 4motion wagon.

(kerbweight 1609kg, Max towing weight 2000kg, Max hitch
weight 85kg)

John Galloway

[Chris Nicholas]

I am normally limited to the current Ford UK range of vehicles. Various satisfactory estate variants I have used for towing include a 2.0 L diesel Mondeo automatic estate, Focus 1.6 L diesel auto, and currently 2.0 L petrol automatic Focus estate. It happily towed my glider up the one in four hill at Sutton Bank, and I have similarly had no problems towing up Glenshee on the way to Aboyne.

Not sure how it would operate with a heavy two seater, though I did tow the Lak 12 with one of my Mondeo estates, but automatics give you a super extra low gear at low speed, because of the torque converter, which so far has never let me down.

Chris N.


__________________________________________________ _________
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
now.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/

[Ray Lovinggood]

Erik,

If I were to replace the 2000 Accord V6 today, I would
go right to the current generation Toyota RAV4 and
probably get the four wheel drive version, but definitely
with V-6 engine and towing package.

V-6 power: 269 hp.
EPA mileage, 21 city, 28 highway. Heck, 28 is what
the 200 h.p. Honda gets! And it's only front wheel
drive.

On a cross country tow this past spring, a friend and
I towed the same route in our little own convoy. He
with his RAV4 and me with my Accord. I didn't check
his mileage, but since we tanked up at the same stations
at the start and at the end, I do know he used about
2 gallons less than me.

The RAV4 has a strong engine, available with 4 wheel
drive, and good mileage.

Now, in 08 or maybe 09, Honda will have their turbodiesel
available in America. What will they offer it in?
An Accord sedan? Accord wagon (which we don't have
right now), or maybe the CR-V? Only Honda knows.

One wagon you haven't mentioned: Mazda's Six. It's
a nice looking vehicle. Not as nice as the V-Dub,
but pretty close.

Let us know what you get and how it works out.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Ray Lovinggood]

Eric,

I don't know if it's available in Europe, but another
wagon to consider is the Dodge Magnum.

You can get one with all wheel drive and a 5.7 liter
V8. Mileage is rated at 17 mpg and 24 mpg. Horsepower?
345.

Towing capacity is up to 3,800 lbs.

It might, almost, keep up with an average Gee 29.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> I don't know if it's available in Europe, but another
> wagon to consider is the Dodge Magnum.

I believe it's called the Chrysler 300C Touring in Europe, and they even
get the option of a Mercedes diesel. But in any case, it's a still a
frackin' huge vehicle if you're used to something smaller.

Two potential tow cars I haven't heard mentioned:

Volvo V50
Volvo C30 (for the bleeding edge types)

I use a '97 Volkswagen Eurovan (Transporter) Camper myself, with the VR6
engine. It pulled our Duo with ease over the steepest western US
mountain passes, while delivering a little over 20 MPG...

Marc

[Ray Lovinggood]

Erik,

One other thing you might consider: Required octane.
I believe the turbo Subaru's require the expensive
high octane gasoline.

The Volvo V70 wagon with the five cylinder non-turbocharged
engine tows well and the Volvo web page shows a 3,300
lb towing capacity for all their engine variants (in
America). A friend previously had a V70 non-turbo,
front wheel drive wagon and pulled his glider with
it. I drove it a few times, with and without the glider
in the trailer :-) and it drove nicely. But, the
thing required high octane fuel. On one retrieve,
he left the car with the tank mostly empty. I was
not a happy retrieval person, so I ordered a bigger
steak and a couple of glasses of wine upon our eventual
stop for dinner.

He is the pilot who now tows with the V6 RAV4. The
Volvo got taken out by a wreck (nobody injured, and
the car didn't look that bad, but the insurance company
totalled it out.) The V6 RAV4 requires only regular
fuel.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Papa3]

On Aug 24, 2:22 pm, John Galloway > wrote:
> The UK magazine 'What Car' published a supplement magazine
> on towcars a month or so ago. They tested 50 (non
> US) vehicles in the full range of sizes from Golfs
> up to Range Rovers. The 'clear winner' (their words)
> overall was the VW Passat 2.0 TDI Sport 4motion wagon.
>
> (kerbweight 1609kg, Max towing weight 2000kg, Max hitch
> weight 85kg)
>
> John Galloway

I currently tow with the VR6 version of the Passat 4 motion wagon.
It's a great towcar. I suspect the TDI would only make it better.
Unfortunately, I suspect there's pretty much no chance of that
configuration making it to the States.

P3

[st4s03]

On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Aug 24, 2:22 pm, John Galloway > wrote:
>
> > The UK magazine 'What Car' published a supplement magazine
> > on towcars a month or so ago. They tested 50 (non
> > US) vehicles in the full range of sizes from Golfs
> > up to Range Rovers. The 'clear winner' (their words)
> > overall was the VW Passat 2.0 TDI Sport 4motion wagon.
>
> > (kerbweight 1609kg, Max towing weight 2000kg, Max hitch
> > weight 85kg)
>
> > John Galloway
>
> I currently tow with the VR6 version of the Passat 4 motion wagon.
> It's a great towcar. I suspect the TDI would only make it better.
> Unfortunately, I suspect there's pretty much no chance of that
> configuration making it to the States.
>
> P3

This may be an idea if you can hold out for a while:

http://tinyurl.com/3dh24f

[BlueCumulus[_2_]]

Why would someone even think that a BMW is a good car for towing?
The first gear is too long and all gas engines do not have enough torque
at low rpm's.

Best for towing are Common Rail Turbo Diesel cars.
These cars offer best torque at low rpm and best economy if not used
for towing. I used small cars like the VW Golf TDI, Fiat Punto TD,
Peugeot Station Wagon HDI, all with 2 liter common rail turbo diesel
engines, to tow up to 1000kg braked Cobra trailers. I drove over many
passes in Switzerland, France and Italy and newer could complain and
never had an accident, even driving with 130km/h (80 miles/h) on French
highways.

These 4cyl cars make more than 40 miles/gallon without trailer and
about 30 miles/gallon with a 900kg trailer. The newest Fiat Punto
Diesel JTD tows 1000kg braked and has makes more than 58 miles/
gallon and 35 miles/gallon with the trailer on the hook. Your wife will
even love it for shopping ;-)

My philosophy
get a good braked cobra trailer
which takes care of your glider, your back and runs very stable
tow it with a economic common rail diesel car with good suspension
and spend the money you save on fuel cost flying.

Chris
CH
__________________________________________________ ___

"Papa3" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> That's an interesting rub. I've had the same experience in
> Germany. My cousin's BMW 325 wagon had the standard gooseneck
> hitch. Talking to the US BMW reps results in a blank stare.
>
> The problem I have is that several manufacturers threaten to void the
> warranty if you tow with an unapproved vehicle here. On the one
> hand, I'm not overly concerned with that. On the other, if you do
> happen to get unlucky and get a lemon, you could be in for a real
> hassle.
>
> The Subaru has been in the lead in my short list, but I may wait and
> see whether any of the TDI engines make it back for either the early
> 2008 or mid-season 2008 release.
>
> Anyone specifically towing with the BMW 3 series wagon?
>

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

BlueCumulus wrote:
> Why would someone even think that a BMW is a good car for towing?
> The first gear is too long and all gas engines do not have enough torque
> at low rpm's.
>
> Best for towing are Common Rail Turbo Diesel cars.

We currently can't get diesel cars in several parts of the US, as the
current models don't meet the more stringent emissions regulations in
California and other highly populated areas. This will change in a year
or two, but meanwhile, we have to make do with gas engines...

Marc

[BlueCumulus[_2_]]

All European Diesel cars have particle filters installed for
meeting highest emission standards. Maybe dear Arnold
Schwarzenegger should look over his shoulder back to his
home country Austria and crosscheck.

Chris

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
...
> BlueCumulus wrote:
>> Why would someone even think that a BMW is a good car for towing?
>> The first gear is too long and all gas engines do not have enough torque
>> at low rpm's.
>>
>> Best for towing are Common Rail Turbo Diesel cars.
>
> We currently can't get diesel cars in several parts of the US, as the
> current models don't meet the more stringent emissions regulations in
> California and other highly populated areas. This will change in a year
> or two, but meanwhile, we have to make do with gas engines...
>
> Marc

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

BlueCumulus wrote:
> All European Diesel cars have particle filters installed for
> meeting highest emission standards. Maybe dear Arnold
> Schwarzenegger should look over his shoulder back to his
> home country Austria and crosscheck.

The more difficult issue is nitrogen oxide emissions.

Marc

[Papa3]

On Sep 2, 6:48 pm, "BlueCumulus" > wrote:
> Why would someone even think that a BMW is a good car for towing?
> The first gear is too long and all gas engines do not have enough torque
> at low rpm's.
>
> Best for towing are Common Rail Turbo Diesel cars.
> These cars offer best torque at low rpm and best economy if not used
> for towing. I used small cars like the VW Golf TDI, Fiat Punto TD,
> Peugeot Station Wagon HDI, all with 2 liter common rail turbo diesel
> engines, to tow up to 1000kg braked Cobra trailers. I drove over many
> passes in Switzerland, France and Italy and newer could complain and
> never had an accident, even driving with 130km/h (80 miles/h) on French
> highways.
>
> These 4cyl cars make more than 40 miles/gallon without trailer and
> about 30 miles/gallon with a 900kg trailer. The newest Fiat Punto
> Diesel JTD tows 1000kg braked and has makes more than 58 miles/
> gallon and 35 miles/gallon with the trailer on the hook. Your wife will
> even love it for shopping ;-)
>
> My philosophy
> get a good braked cobra trailer
> which takes care of your glider, your back and runs very stable
> tow it with a economic common rail diesel car with good suspension
> and spend the money you save on fuel cost flying.
>
> Chris
> CH
> __________________________________________________ ___
>
> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > That's an interesting rub. I've had the same experience in
> > Germany. My cousin's BMW 325 wagon had the standard gooseneck
> > hitch. Talking to the US BMW reps results in a blank stare.
>
> > The problem I have is that several manufacturers threaten to void the
> > warranty if you tow with an unapproved vehicle here. On the one
> > hand, I'm not overly concerned with that. On the other, if you do
> > happen to get unlucky and get a lemon, you could be in for a real
> > hassle.
>
> > The Subaru has been in the lead in my short list, but I may wait and
> > see whether any of the TDI engines make it back for either the early
> > 2008 or mid-season 2008 release.
>
> > Anyone specifically towing with the BMW 3 series wagon?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yo Chris,

What makes you think Diesel and BMW are mutually exclusive. I
understand that BMW is introducing Diesels in the US for the 2008
model year; reviews I've read on these vehicles in Europe have been
very impressive indeed. Anyone out there know if the 325xi wagon is
available in Diesel engine in EU Land?

P3

[Ray Lovinggood]

P3 wrote, 'Anyone out there know if the 325xi wagon
is available in Diesel engine in EU Land?'

P3, I did a quick check on the bmw.de and bmw.co.uk
web sites and neither listed an 'x' version. They
do offer a couple of diesels, it seems. A four cylinder
and a six cylinder. Wonder if they'll ever bring them
to the US?

Please note the term 'quick check'...

Ray

[BlueCumulus[_2_]]

BMW318d Touring for EURO 28950
VW Passat Tdi Touring EURO 28350
Peugeot 307 Hdi Touring EURO 20950

I bought the Peugeot because it costs EU 8000 less than a German car.
Second I would never buy a back-wheel driven car, because they are the
first needing chains in the snow. In wet and slippery conditions traction
of front-wheel driven cars is better as well.

you are right.
There is not much choice in the US - no Diesel Technology - I checked
the internet. Reason for that are the changed NOx limits in the US which
applied from 2004 on.
http://www.umweltdaten.de/publikationen/fpdf-l/3021.pdf English version
(very informative)

Thanks to the lowered limits in the US the motor companies have now
developed NOx absorbers and catalyzed particle filter systems which
should limit diesel emissions below the US limits. Euro5 norms will limit
NOx to 0.08g/km and particles to 0.0025g/km in 2010,
which will be compatible with US norms, which actually limit
NOx to 0.043g/km and particles to 0.0061g/km.

Chris
CH
__________________________________________________ ___

"Papa3" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Yo Chris,
> What makes you think Diesel and BMW are mutually exclusive. I
> understand that BMW is introducing Diesels in the US for the 2008
> model year; reviews I've read on these vehicles in Europe have been
> very impressive indeed. Anyone out there know if the 325xi wagon is
> available in Diesel engine in EU Land?
> P3
>

[BlueCumulus[_2_]]

(corrected)

BMW318d Touring for EURO 28950
VW Passat Tdi Touring EURO 28350
Peugeot 307 Hdi Touring EURO 20950

I bought the Peugeot because it costs EU 8000 less than a German car.
Second I would never buy a back-wheel driven car, because they are the
first needing chains in the snow. In wet and slippery conditions traction
of front-wheel driven cars is better as well.

you are right.
There is not much choice in the US - no Diesel Technology - I checked
the internet. Reason for that are the changed NOx limits in the US which
applied from 2004 on.
http://www.umweltdaten.de/publikationen/fpdf-l/3021.pdf English version
(very informative)

Thanks to the lowered limits in the US the motor companies have now
developed NOx absorbers and catalyzed particle filter systems which
should limit diesel emissions below the US limits. Euro5 norms will limit
NOx to 0.08g/km and particles to 0.0025g/km in 2010.
This will be compatible with actual US particle limits of 0.0061g/km
but will not yet comply with the US NOx target of 0.043g/km.

Today's European diesel cars with particle filters have no problems with
the US particle limits but exceed the NOx limits by a factor 10.

Chris
CH
__________________________________________________ ___

"Papa3" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Yo Chris,
> What makes you think Diesel and BMW are mutually exclusive. I
> understand that BMW is introducing Diesels in the US for the 2008
> model year; reviews I've read on these vehicles in Europe have been
> very impressive indeed. Anyone out there know if the 325xi wagon is
> available in Diesel engine in EU Land?
> P3
>

[Papa3]

On Sep 4, 4:34 pm, Asbjorn Hojmark > wrote:
> On 4 Sep 2007 01:16:31 GMT, Ray Lovinggood
>
> > wrote:
> > P3 wrote, 'Anyone out there know if the 325xi wagon is available
> > in Diesel engine in EU Land?'
>
> There is no such thing as a 325xi with diesel... since the "i"
> signifies gasoline (originally injection). A 325 with 4-wheel drive
> and diesel would then be 325xd, but there is no such thing either.
>
> There *is* a 330xd (over here): 3 litre, 6 cylinder, 170 kW and 500
> Nm. 0-100 in a lot less than 7 seconds. That's a very fine car, but
> it's totally overkill for towing. A 320d would do very nicely.
>
> -A
> --http://www.hojmark.org/soaring.html

Thanks. Should've realized that the i's were all gas and the x's were
all wheel drive.

In case anyone's interested, here's what I got back by email after
requesting from BMW USA what they were planning for 2008:

"Dear Mr. Mann:

Thank you for contacting BMW of North America, LLC regarding diesel
models in the US market. We appreciate your interest and enthusiasm
for our vehicles. I am happy to confirm that yes, BMW NA plans to
offer diesel models in all 50 states beginning in 2008. At this time,
a model line up has not yet been released.

In 1998, we demonstrated the superiority of our diesel technology on
the racetrack by winning the 24-hours of Nürburgring in a race-tuned
320d Sedan. This grueling test of endurance not only proved the 320d's
ability to run longer between fuel stops, but on a larger scale,
demonstrated that performance and fuel efficiency are not mutually
exclusive.

Today, we offer a wide variety of diesel engines across our entire
model range in Europe. Taking home the prestigious Engine of the Year
Award several times, our diesel engines are renowned for their
unequaled harmony of dynamic performance, innovative technology,
surprisingly low fuel consumption, along with a smoothness that is
uncommon for a Diesel. The pinnacle of BMW diesel technology to date
is the 3.0-liter variable twin-turbo inline six-cylinder introduced
recently in the 335d and 535d. With 286-hp and 427 lb-ft of torque,
the 535d accelerates to 60 mph in less than 6.5 seconds, while
delivering an average of 37 mpg on the highway.

Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market -
not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to
help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In fact, this enhanced concept
for minimum exhaust gas emissions has been developed to meet the
strict emissions standards in effect in California and other states.
With its carbon emissions down 10% - 20% from comparable gasoline
vehicles, and near-elimination of both smoke and NOx emissions, BMW
Advanced Diesels will be every bit as clean as CARB-legal gasoline
engines when they are introduced in the US in 2008.

As a means of producing so much power with a minimum of environmental
impact and a maximum of fuel efficiency, it is no surprise that BMW
will be among the first to introduce 50-state clean diesel technology.
After all, it often takes an independent company like ours to bring an
idea like this to the public. For the most up-to-date information, I
recommend regular visits to our dynamic website www.bmwusa.com; when
you visit, be sure to sign up for diesel e-mail updates.

If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or
contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at
1-800-831-1117, Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M.,
Eastern Standard Time. Again, thank you for contacting BMW.

Sincerely,

Amber Wood"

[John Smith]

> recently in the 335d and 535d. With 286-hp and 427 lb-ft of torque,
> the 535d accelerates to 60 mph in less than 6.5 seconds, while
> delivering an average of 37 mpg on the highway.

This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider. For single seaters, 100hp is
plenty enough even in the mountains, which will give you 50mpg with
modern diesels when not towing. Double seaters may ask for a bit more,
but not much. BTW, I regularly tow single seaters with an Opel Astra 1.6
(gaz). Front drive, no 4x4. Plenty enough power, the speed is limited
not by power, but by the stability, he upper safe limit being somewhere
around 60mph. But does this really matter, and btw, in most places the
allowed speed isn't higher anyway.

> Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market -
> not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to
> help reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

If that was their intent, they wouldn't push engines with 286hp and
above. I'm afraid that they are correct, though, that this insanity is
predestined for the US market.

[Dan G]

On Sep 5, 7:30 am, John Smith > wrote:
> This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
> 60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.

Eh? Who is suggesting that you do?


Dan

[Bill Daniels]

"Dan G" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Sep 5, 7:30 am, John Smith > wrote:
>> This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
>> 60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.
>
> Eh? Who is suggesting that you do?
>
>
> Dan

Keep in mind that there is "data plate HP" and actual HP. Turbo diesels
tend to have high "critical altitudes" which is the highest altitude where
the engine will produce sea level power. On the other hand, normally
aspirated engines will only produce a fraction of the "brochure HP" at high
altitudes. To get adequate power at the top of mountain passes with a
normally aspirated engine, you must to buy more power than you need at sea
level.

Diesels have excellent economy at part throttle but only slightly better
economy than spark ignition engines at full throttle. This means that even
if you bought an engine with the capacity to produce 286 HP, the power that
you actually use is determined by power demand which is in turn mainly
determined by the overall weight of your rig and driving style. To increase
fuel economy, reduce weight and run at part throttle. All else equal,
buying a larger diesel engine has little to do with actual average fuel
economy.

Bill Daniels

[Bruce]

Monster diesels - Pointless magnificence, especially in 4x4.
Goes with all sorts of other weird and perverse thinking - will do well in
markets like the USA (and South Africa.)


John Smith wrote:
>> recently in the 335d and 535d. With 286-hp and 427 lb-ft of torque,
>> the 535d accelerates to 60 mph in less than 6.5 seconds, while
>> delivering an average of 37 mpg on the highway.
>
> This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
> 60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider. For single seaters, 100hp is
> plenty enough even in the mountains, which will give you 50mpg with
> modern diesels when not towing. Double seaters may ask for a bit more,
> but not much. BTW, I regularly tow single seaters with an Opel Astra 1.6
> (gaz). Front drive, no 4x4. Plenty enough power, the speed is limited
> not by power, but by the stability, he upper safe limit being somewhere
> around 60mph. But does this really matter, and btw, in most places the
> allowed speed isn't higher anyway.
>
> > Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market -
> > not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to
> > help reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
>
> If that was their intent, they wouldn't push engines with 286hp and
> above. I'm afraid that they are correct, though, that this insanity is
> predestined for the US market.

[Papa3]

On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 7:30 am, John Smith > wrote:
>
> > This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
> > 60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.
>
> Eh? Who is suggesting that you do?
>
> Dan

No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
extra power might be nice to have :-)

P3

[BlueCumulus[_2_]]

Hi Bill
I do not know where you have that stuff from.
But for sure your statements will not stand closer investigations.

John Smith got it right:
> I regularly tow single seaters with an Opel Astra 1.6 (gaz) -
> front driven - NO 4x4. Plenty enough power, the speed is limited not by
> power, but by the stability.

I towed my single seaters in Cobra trailers (~850kg) first with
a Fiat Uno (1.6liter, 4cyl, 70hp, low first gear and best torque
at 3000rpm) over many European mountain passes without any
problems. On a very hot summer day cooling the engine might
become an issue even with a electric fan, if you are stuck in traffic
jam behind a slow truck. But you still as a last resort can open
all windows and switch the aircon to full heat :-)

Your second "full throttle" theory also is weak. The economy
at higher speeds (60mph) in general depends on the highest
gearbox ratio and that is true for gas engines as well and aero-
dynamics. Don't buy a car which you have to rev up to 5000
rpm to reach 60mph! Make sure you can do it in the highest
gear at not much more than the best torque (~2000rpm for
diesels and <=3500rpm for gaz).

My actual Peugeot 307 HDi Touring cruises 120km/h (75mph)
with a consumption of 6l/100km (39m/g) or 8l/100km with the
trailer hooked on (29m/g). The longer the wheel base, combined
with low CG and good suspension (NO spring leaves!) tows a
Cobra trailer at 75mph without stability problems.

Sports cars have best torque at higher rpm than economic cars.
When selecting a car in general for towing, get one with an engine
with long stroke and high torque at low rpm and get a sleek
design not a square SUV with lots of aerodynamic drag, and a
weight 1000kg above a normal station wagon. Towing with a high
CG and short wheel base (SUVs) is also no good for stable driving
behavior!

DON'T BELIEVE CAR DEALERS
they just want to make you believe that you need for towing
at least 6 cylinders, 3 liters, 200 HP and 4x4 drive
That's just plain rubbish
Think economically &
do not overkill
and keep your daily running costs down
to be able to spend more money on the real topic: SOARING.

But if you are a millionaire - then you do not have to care.

Chris
________________________________________________

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
...
>> Dan
>
> Keep in mind that there is "data plate HP" and actual HP. Turbo diesels
> tend to have high "critical altitudes" which is the highest altitude where
> the engine will produce sea level power. On the other hand, normally
> aspirated engines will only produce a fraction of the "brochure HP" at
> high altitudes. To get adequate power at the top of mountain passes with
> a normally aspirated engine, you must to buy more power than you need at
> sea level.
>
> Diesels have excellent economy at part throttle but only slightly better
> economy than spark ignition engines at full throttle. This means that
> even if you bought an engine with the capacity to produce 286 HP, the
> power that you actually use is determined by power demand which is in turn
> mainly determined by the overall weight of your rig and driving style. To
> increase fuel economy, reduce weight and run at part throttle. All else
> equal, buying a larger diesel engine has little to do with actual average
> fuel economy.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[BlueCumulus[_2_]]

NO
you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
(2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
making your ears deaf.
Chris
__________________________________________________ _____

"Papa3" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G > wrote:
>
> No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
> traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
> you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
> extra power might be nice to have :-)
>
> P3
>

[Papa3]

On Sep 5, 7:16 pm, "BlueCumulus" > wrote:
> NO
> you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
> A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
> (2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
> Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
> making your ears deaf.
> Chris
> __________________________________________________ _____
>
> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sep 5, 7:38 am, Dan G > wrote:
>
> > No, not to tow a glider. But, if you've ever tried to merge into
> > traffic on route 78 eastbound with a 20 ton dumptruck bearing down on
> > you at 65mph, you'll understand why there are times when a little
> > extra power might be nice to have :-)
>
> > P3- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Chris,

Go back and read the post again, would you? The argument wasn't
between gas and diesel. I'm sold on diesel - have been for 20 years.
The comment was that there are some times you want a 286hp diesel
(also note the smiley face).

But, since you bring it up:

- Specs on the Peugot HDi give something like 140hp and 10 seconds
0-60 (and that's the larger HDi)
- Specs on an older BMW 320d give something like 165hp and 7.8
seconds 0-60 (the new 320d is about 6.0 seconds)

My point ws that sometimes 2 seconds means a lot (like when a 20 ton
truck is bearing down on you eating up about 100 feet of pavement
every second).

Now I know why the Diana2 guys were losing it !

P3

[J a c k]

John Smith wrote:

> This is just plain insane. Nobody needs 286hp and an acceleration to
> 60mph of 6.5 seconds to tow a glider.

No one needs a glider either.


> ...this insanity is predestined for the US market.

We're so glad you don't have to endure our shame.

I would be happy make up a list of the things you should and should not
be allowed to do, think, or say, and mail it to you--or, I could just
post it here--since you seem to feel that sort of thing is appropriate.



Jack

[Eric Greenwell]

BlueCumulus wrote:
> NO
> you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
> A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
> (2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
> Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
> making your ears deaf.
> Chris

I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
torque is not relevant.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[[email protected]]

On Sep 7, 9:15 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> BlueCumulus wrote:
> > NO
> > you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
> > A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
> > (2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
> > Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
> > making your ears deaf.
> > Chris
>
> I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
> highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
> fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
> accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
> produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
> torque is not relevant.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

..... and I can't let that go. Torque is ALWAYS relevant. Power
(Horsepower) is nothing more than torque times rpm. A zillion RPM
times zero (irrelevent) torque = zero power. OTOH, while the bottom
end grunt of a diesel is nice to have, I DO agree that you can do just
fine with a high revving motor by utilizing the transmission well.

Jim
Ram 2500 CTD

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:
> On Sep 7, 9:15 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>> BlueCumulus wrote:
>>> NO
>>> you need torque at 2000rpm not high power at 5000rpm
>>> A 2liter (122cinch) common rail diesel engine delivers 250Nm torque
>>> (2200 lbf inch) at 1800rpm. That beats torque of most 3 liter gaz engines.
>>> Torque at low rpm is giving you the acceleration and it does without
>>> making your ears deaf.
>>> Chris
>> I can't let this one go: Papa3's comment was about merging onto a
>> highway, not about moving away from a complete stop. Once you are going
>> fast enough to be past the torque peak in first gear, it's *power* that
>> accelerates a vehicle, or moves it up a hill. The torque required is
>> produced by selecting the right gear in the transmission, so the engine
>> torque is not relevant.

> .... and I can't let that go. Torque is ALWAYS relevant.

To the vehicle designer - yes. The designer chooses the transmission,
torque converter (if there is one), the rear axle gears, and the tire
diameter to match the torque out of the engine to the torque required at
the drive axle. The designer must also know the torque values involved
so the components are sized to handle the torque at each point in the
power train.

The vehicle operator just presses on the accelerator to supply the power
needed (automatic transmission). With a manual transmission, the
operator must also select the gear position required.

> Power
> (Horsepower) is nothing more than torque times rpm. A zillion RPM
> times zero (irrelevent) torque = zero power.

I agree, and that's one of my points: you have to have power to move the
vehicle. You can't do it with zero power. A zillion foot-pounds of
torque times zero rpm = zero power, and you still don't move. Movement
requires power.

> OTOH, while the bottom
> end grunt of a diesel is nice to have,

The torque your power train can deliver to the rear wheels is important
when you are moving so slowly that you are still below the torque peak
in your lowest gear. For vehicles towing gliders, this is generally a
few miles per hour. How often do you need a lot of torque when you are
going slowly? I need it only for starting on a steep hill in the
motorhome, and the torque converter gives me all I need with just part
throttle - no grunting required from the gasoline fueled engine!

> I DO agree that you can do just
> fine with a high revving motor by utilizing the transmission well.

And that was my point: engine torque is not an important number for
towing a glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[[email protected]]

On Sep 3, 1:29 am, "BlueCumulus" > wrote:
> All European Diesel cars have particle filters installed for
> meeting highest emission standards. Maybe dear Arnold
> Schwarzenegger should look over his shoulder back to his
> home country Austria and crosscheck.
>
> Chris
>
> "Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > BlueCumulus wrote:
> >> Why would someone even think that a BMW is a good car for towing?
> >> The first gear is too long and all gas engines do not have enough torque
> >> at low rpm's.
>
> >> Best for towing are Common Rail Turbo Diesel cars.
>
> > We currently can't get diesel cars in several parts of the US, as the
> > current models don't meet the more stringent emissions regulations in
> > California and other highly populated areas. This will change in a year
> > or two, but meanwhile, we have to make do with gas engines...
>
> > Marc- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

In US the problem are not cars but dirty diesel fuel. That is why
diesel cars are not allowed in many parts of the country. It is our
big oil companies fault.