Off in the weeds

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

It was the second flight of the day for the conservation organization I do
volunteer flying for. The local Baton Rouge guy bird-dogging illegal Cypress
logging had me set up to take him, a reporter and a cameraman from the Fox TV
station up to video the bad guys at work.

4R is the shortest runway at BTR, but it's closest to the FBO, so I begged for
it and got it.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0708/00040AD.PDF

I had given my pax - both newbies - the standard preflight about seatbelts,
headsets, sterile cockpit, etc. I remembered to tell the cameraman in the
front seat beside me to keep his feet off the pedals. Then I did the runup,
completed the pre-takeoff checklist and was cleared to go.

It's my habit to pull a little back pressure as soon as the airspeed's alive;
we were rolling and all seemed well. The airplane was loaded almost to gross,
so I let the airspeed build to 60 KIAS before I pulled back for rotation.

Well, I *tried* to pull back for rotation. The yoke wouldn't budge. At
first, I thought I had failed to set the elevator trim. 182s are a bit pitch
heavy anyway, so I pulled harder. No joy. At this point, puzzle-solving time
was over. Airspeed was passing 75, the airplane was heavy, and the end of the
runway was fast approaching.

I killed the power and jammed on the brakes. For some reason, I announced to
the tower that I was aborting, even though I had rather a lot to concentrate
on at the moment. It became one of those "time slows down" experiences: my
mental calculations told me I wasn't going to get 'er stopped before the
concrete ran out. I started planning the best route through the lights and
into the smoothest looking part of the overrun.

We finally slowed to taxi speed about 50 feet off the end and I turned around
and bumped along the grass back to the runway. The tower was asking if I
needed assistance and what I wanted to do. Oh, yeah: and "what happened?"

We had just figured that out. As we turned on to 4R for takeoff, the
cameraman had shifted his large video rig in his lap - right up against the
yoke in front of him. When I tried to pull the yoke back, there was nowhere
for it to go. The camera was taking up all the room between the right yoke
and the cameraman.

As we taxied back for another try, the three pax were joking about what had
just happened and kidding the cameraman. I don't think they realized how
close they had come to getting hurt or killed.

Oh, well; another lesson learned. "Controls free and correct?" Maybe at the
moment you check, but watch out for anything that could interfere with them
while you're not looking.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Matt Whiting]

Dan Luke wrote:
> It was the second flight of the day for the conservation organization I do
> volunteer flying for. The local Baton Rouge guy bird-dogging illegal Cypress
> logging had me set up to take him, a reporter and a cameraman from the Fox TV
> station up to video the bad guys at work.
>
> 4R is the shortest runway at BTR, but it's closest to the FBO, so I begged for
> it and got it.

Was it very hot also? I'm asking due to the fact that it took 3800' of
runway to accelerate to 75 and stop. That is a long way in a Skylane.

It is great that all turned out well and probably better than you
weren't able to rotate enough to lift-off. That may have been even
worse with that guy that close to the controls.

So, how did the flight go once you got off the ground on the next
attempt? :-)

Matt

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

>>
>> 4R is the shortest runway at BTR, but it's closest to the FBO, so I begged
>> for it and got it.
>
> Was it very hot also? I'm asking due to the fact that it took 3800' of
> runway to accelerate to 75 and stop. That is a long way in a Skylane.

South Louisiana in August? Yes, very hot. There was also some runway spent
while I tried to figure out the problem. Did we go past 80 KIAS? Maybe.

I've now had two scary emergencies. What they say about getting past the
denial stage is true.

> It is great that all turned out well and probably better than you weren't
> able to rotate enough to lift-off. That may have been even worse with that
> guy that close to the controls.
>
> So, how did the flight go once you got off the ground on the next attempt?
> :-)

Fine. We found some cypress rustlers and the TV folks got their videos. Lots
of low altitude maneuvering and generally fun flying.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> As we taxied back for another try, the three pax were joking about what
> had just happened and kidding the cameraman. I don't think they realized
> how close they had come to getting hurt or killed.

Wow! Thanks for the story, and I'm glad to hear you made it without
bending anything. We all learn from these stories.

There's an FBO across the airport from the main terminal operated by a guy
named Emil. Do you happen to know if it's still there?

I had one of the craziest and most unbelievable experiences there when a
Texas CAP group showed up a little after Hurricane Andrew. Those guys
basically just acted like they owned the place and there as bit of trouble
because one of 'em violated instructions from Ground more or less because he
simply didn't want to follow them. (No safety issue, just a belligerent
pilot.)

-c

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Gattman" wrote:

> There's an FBO across the airport from the main terminal operated by a guy
> named Emil. Do you happen to know if it's still there?

Nope. I've only landed at BTR a few times; I don't know anyone there.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Gattman" > wrote

> I had one of the craziest and most unbelievable experiences there when a
> Texas CAP group showed up a little after Hurricane Andrew. Those guys
> basically just acted like they owned the place and there as bit of trouble
> because one of 'em violated instructions from Ground more or less because
> he simply didn't want to follow them. (No safety issue, just a
> belligerent pilot.)

If the unit at OSH (the CAP cadets and supervising officers) are any
indication of CAP as a whole, I'm not surprised. They are the ultimate in
belligerent.
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>
>>> 4R is the shortest runway at BTR, but it's closest to the FBO, so I begged
>>> for it and got it.
>> Was it very hot also? I'm asking due to the fact that it took 3800' of
>> runway to accelerate to 75 and stop. That is a long way in a Skylane.
>
> South Louisiana in August? Yes, very hot. There was also some runway spent
> while I tried to figure out the problem. Did we go past 80 KIAS? Maybe.
>
> I've now had two scary emergencies. What they say about getting past the
> denial stage is true.
>
>> It is great that all turned out well and probably better than you weren't
>> able to rotate enough to lift-off. That may have been even worse with that
>> guy that close to the controls.
>>
>> So, how did the flight go once you got off the ground on the next attempt?
>> :-)
>
> Fine. We found some cypress rustlers and the TV folks got their videos. Lots
> of low altitude maneuvering and generally fun flying.
>

Nobody tried to shoot you down, eh?

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, I *tried* to pull back for rotation. The yoke wouldn't budge. At
> first, I thought I had failed to set the elevator trim. 182s are a bit pitch
> heavy anyway, so I pulled harder. No joy. At this point, puzzle-solving time
> was over. Airspeed was passing 75, the airplane was heavy, and the end of the
> runway was fast approaching.

Damn, Dan, that's one of the scariest stories I've seen here.

What you described is one of my worst-case scenarios with giving
rides, ranking right behind having a kid totally freak out in the air.

Glad you made it okay.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Dan Luke" wrote)
> Nope. I've only landed at BTR a few times; I don't know anyone there.


Well they know *you*, now. <g>


Paul-Mont-Ground-Crew
Our EAA Chapter's (August) Young Eagle day is Saturday ....morning.

http://www.americanwings.org/eagles.htm
American Wings Museum is next to the tower.

Maybe Cary (from these newsgroups) will be there, with his Diamond DA42 Twin
Star, giving kids rides again.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Montblack" wrote:

>> Nope. I've only landed at BTR a few times; I don't know anyone there.
>
>
> Well they know *you*, now. <g>
>

LOL

"Look, here comes Mr. Off-Road again!"

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

>
> Nobody tried to shoot you down, eh?

I admit I did pucker a little bit.

There are some tough ol' Cajun boys down there.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Matt Whiting]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>
>> Nobody tried to shoot you down, eh?
>
> I admit I did pucker a little bit.
>
> There are some tough ol' Cajun boys down there.
>

Yes, some of those illicit folks don't take kindly to being spied on!

Matt

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Dan Luke wrote:
> Oh, well; another lesson learned. "Controls free and correct?" Maybe at
> the moment you check, but watch out for anything that could
> interfere with them while you're not looking.

This is the one thing that has me nervous as I prepare to transition to a
aircraft with sticks instead of a yoke. I have a concern that even though I
plan to brief each passenger to "stay clear of that stick between their
legs" especially during take off and landing I still worry that if they get
nervous they might tighten there legs together or do something else to block
the freedom of the controls.

The only other aircraft I've flown with passengers and a stick is the R22
and it design tends to get it out of the passengers way.

What do those of you with stick controlled aircraft do to deal with this
concern.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

john smith wrote:
> In article >,
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>> What do those of you with stick controlled aircraft do to deal with
>> this concern.
>
> When you do your control test, pull it back slowly and keep pulling.
> They get the message when it pokes them in the gut.
> If you cannot pull it back into your gut, stop, and check the reason
> why.

I'm not worried about explaining it to them when we are sitting nice and
safe on the ramp or at the end of the runway. What concerns me is what they
might do when we hit turbulence on short final.

[Michael Ash]

In rec.aviation.student Dan Luke > wrote:
> Oh, well; another lesson learned. "Controls free and correct?" Maybe at the
> moment you check, but watch out for anything that could interfere with them
> while you're not looking.

Thanks for the story. Scary! I'm glad it worked out ok in the end.

You'd think I would have learned from it, but I had a somewhat similar
incident just two days ago, although mine was badly exaggerated by
stupidity on my part.

First, some context, for those unfamiliar with gliders. The takeoff is a
tricky operation, since you're balancingon a single wheel, and you're
effectively taking off in formation. There's usually a wing runner holding
the wing up at the start, but he can't keep up for long, and when he lets
go you usually need full control deflections to stay straight and level.
This lasts a couple of seconds, then airspeed builds up to needing only a
feather touch. The glider will lift off well before the tow plane due to
different stall speeds, and the ideal altitude for that phase is literally
about 5ft AGL. The ground provides an obvious lower bound, and if you get
too high you can pull the tow plane's tail up and smash his nose into the
pavement.

I always carry a 100oz Camelbak with me, having lots of water is handy
when you don't know how long you'll be in the air or where you might land.
I had been lying it horizontally next to the seat, but the hose wasn't
quite long enough in that position and I had to bend down to drink. This
time I decided to stand it vertically.

I was flying a Schweizer 1-26 where the stick always hits the knees when
going side to side. This doesn't limit control freedom to any significant
degree but I've become used to hitting my legs whenever I test the
controls.

During the takeoff roll I realized that this knee banging problem was
worse than usual. Oops! The top of the Camelbak was right behind my knee,
pushing it toward the stick, and limiting my controls for real. It wasn't
bad enough to pose a danger, especially on a calm day like Saturday, but
it was worrying.

The fix is easy enough, right? Just reach over there with the other hand
and pull it back out of the way. Of course it's not that easy, things get
in the way, and there are these armrests... CRAP! A moment's inattention
and I'm way too high and the tow plane is still on the ground. Of course I
overcorrect and head down too fast. I correct again but a bit too late,
and hit the ground with a thump that's painful to hear but probably not as
bad as some landings I've had.

Lesson learned, I leave the stupid water bag alone and do what I should
have done from the start, and fly the airplane. Once I get off tow the
thing is easy to move, and the rest of the flight is uneventful. (Too
uneventful, really; no thermal activity to speak of.)

It was a dumb thing to do but luckily I got taught a lesson in the best
way and nothing got broken.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Really-Old-Fart]

"Gig 601XLBuilder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:

> This is the one thing that has me nervous as I prepare to transition
> to a aircraft with sticks instead of a yoke. I have a concern that
> even though I plan to brief each passenger to "stay clear of that
> stick between their legs" especially during take off and landing I
> still worry that if they get nervous they might tighten there legs
> together or do something else to block the freedom of the controls.
>
> The only other aircraft I've flown with passengers and a stick is the
> R22 and it design tends to get it out of the passengers way.
>
> What do those of you with stick controlled aircraft do to deal with
> this concern.

If a vary forceful elbow into the rip cage doesn't work, I carry a .45. So
far, I've had to use the elbow, but not the .45.

[Peter Dohm]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> > john smith wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> What do those of you with stick controlled aircraft do to deal with
> > >> this concern.
> > >
> > > When you do your control test, pull it back slowly and keep pulling.
> > > They get the message when it pokes them in the gut.
> > > If you cannot pull it back into your gut, stop, and check the reason
> > > why.
> >
> > I'm not worried about explaining it to them when we are sitting nice and
> > safe on the ramp or at the end of the runway. What concerns me is what
they
> > might do when we hit turbulence on short final.
>
> A dope-slap upside the head usually works.

Drat! Another keyboard ruined...

Peter

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote

> This is the one thing that has me nervous as I prepare to transition to a
> aircraft with sticks instead of a yoke. I have a concern that even though
> I plan to brief each passenger to "stay clear of that stick between their
> legs" especially during take off and landing I still worry that if they
> get nervous they might tighten there legs together or do something else to
> block the freedom of the controls.

> What do those of you with stick controlled aircraft do to deal with this
> concern.

If someone does not follow your instructions and starts interfering with
the stick movement, you quick reach over and punch them in the temple as
hard as you can, and knock them unconscious.

Well, that is one idea. Perhaps not a very good one, but an idea- none the
less! <g>

You are building your own, right? How about making the passenger stick with
a removable feature, kind-of like how a socket extension clips onto a socket
drive. It could be made to clip into place easily, but only removable by
pushing in a little button, or something.

That is how I foresee building, when I get going on one. I would also make
a permanent storage feature, easily and quickly accessible while in flight,
and a kind-of "funnel" to guide the stick into place, even in turbulence.
--
Jim in NC

[Michael Ash]

In rec.aviation.student john smith > wrote:
> In article >,
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm not worried about explaining it to them when we are sitting nice and
>> safe on the ramp or at the end of the runway. What concerns me is what they
>> might do when we hit turbulence on short final.
>
> A dope-slap upside the head usually works.

Any suggestions for when the aircraft has tandem seating and the passenger
isn't physically accessible? :)

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Vaughn Simon]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> What do those of you with stick controlled aircraft do to deal with this
> concern.

I have done several hundred commercial glider rides, so I guess I can ring
in on this one. We always got by with a good briefing and a good control check.
You have to watch those cameras! I prefer that they use a neck strap if one is
available so the thing does not end up adrift on the floor and jam the stick or
rudder. With kids, you instruct them to cross their arms across their chest and
hold on to their shoulder belts. This just naturally keeps their hands away
from the controls.

Since we sat in back of the pax, a sharp pull on the hair was briefed to us
as an emergency option, on the theory that the pax would naturally release the
stick to defend themselves.

Vaughn


>
>

[Jon Woellhaf]

Dudley,

Please tell the story of the T6 instructor removing and throwing his stick
overboard to signal the student that he was ready to solo.

Jon

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Michael Ash" <> wrote

> Any suggestions for when the aircraft has tandem seating and the passenger
> isn't physically accessible? :)

A 2 X 4 hidden along side the seat will make the passenger accessible. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-08-27, Michael Ash > wrote:
> First, some context, for those unfamiliar with gliders. The takeoff is a
> tricky operation, since you're balancingon a single wheel, and you're
> effectively taking off in formation.

There's aerotow launches, and then there are winch launches. Try doing
that on a winch launch :-)

See http://www.alioth.net/Video/Winch-launch.mp4

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[john hawkins]

What a great video. At last a video without some loud rock/heavy metal
background. Good cutting between views. Makes the whole thing dramatic. Bit
more dramatic than my winch launch experiences.
But a great video.

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2007-08-27, Michael Ash > wrote:
>> First, some context, for those unfamiliar with gliders. The takeoff is a
>> tricky operation, since you're balancingon a single wheel, and you're
>> effectively taking off in formation.
>
> There's aerotow launches, and then there are winch launches. Try doing
> that on a winch launch :-)
>
> See http://www.alioth.net/Video/Winch-launch.mp4
>
> --
> Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
> Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Morgans wrote:

> That is how I foresee building, when I get going on one. I would
> also make a permanent storage feature, easily and quickly accessible
> while in flight, and a kind-of "funnel" to guide the stick into
> place, even in turbulence.

Actually, that's what I've been considering doing.

[Michael Ash]

In rec.aviation.student Dylan Smith > wrote:
> On 2007-08-27, Michael Ash > wrote:
>> First, some context, for those unfamiliar with gliders. The takeoff is a
>> tricky operation, since you're balancingon a single wheel, and you're
>> effectively taking off in formation.
>
> There's aerotow launches, and then there are winch launches. Try doing
> that on a winch launch :-)
>
> See http://www.alioth.net/Video/Winch-launch.mp4

Yeah, I should have specified, although I'm sure it was pretty obvious.
Winch launching is something I really need to try someday. It's too bad
it's so rare in the US.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Dan Luke wrote:
> I don't think they realized how
>close they had come to getting hurt or killed.
>Oh, well; another lesson learned. "Controls free and correct?" Maybe at the
>moment you check, but watch out for anything that could interfere with them
>while you're not looking.
>
When I was a really low-timer, my instructor once grabbed the yoke, pulled
the plane into a gentle rolling climb, locked his cross-controlled leg onto
the rudder pedal and didn't move.

He said, "I am your passenger and I just freaked out at what you did and I'm
not lettin' go for anything." Truth is, after 8 or so lessons, I didn't know
what to do. So I smacked his hand off the yoke. It didn't budge. We were
slowing down fast and continuing to roll left thru 30deg. I smacked his hands
again but he was frozen. 45 degrees roll and really in a weird, slow attitude
I panicked and punched his face. His hands went to his face immediately and I
kinda got the ol' 152 back in a reasonable attitude.
Turns out way back he had a student freeze on him and they went into a spin
until he could get control back. He expected me to just get more agressive on
his arms until he let go but I got scared and went the next step up.
An interesting lesson. One I hope I won't need to use cuz' I fly gliders now
and gettin your hands on someone in a K-21 or DuoDiscus ain't easy.

I hear that when flying the S 2-32s they take the stick out of the back seat.
O_o

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200708/1

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" wrote:

> I panicked and punched his face. His hands went to his face immediately

Haw!

I bet that's the last time he tried that trick.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Euan Kilgour]

It reminds me of a similar event that happened when I was right seat
in a Cherokee coming back from a small airshow in NZ. Chris (who does
post in r.a.p from time to time) was flying and we had been queuing at
the hold point for some time. It was about 5.15pm local and the day
had been fine and clear. I don't recall the exact temperature but it
would have been about 95F.

I was looking out the right hand window during the takeoff run looking
at the now lengthy line of aircraft waiting to take off from the two
runways available. Chris asked me if I had my feet on the brakes. I
recall mumbling something in reply which made him repeat his question
firmly. That got my attention and I replied clearly this time that my
feet were flat on the floor and clear of the pedals. I looked up and
the marker boards at the other end of the grass runway were fast
approaching and there were people ahead about 500 feet past the
threshold striking tents that had been in use during the airshow.

Chris made the decision to continue with the takeoff and we just got
into the air before running out of runway. We cleared the people past
the runway by about 40 feet and continued to slowly gain altitude and
airspeed. It was about that time I glanced at the CHT and it was a
lot hotter than it should have been, as we had been sitting stationary
on the ground with the engine running for at least 20 minutes.
Combined with the hot day (altitude was not an issue, the runways
elevation was only 12 feet above sea level), 4 people on board and a
hot engine, our takeoff performance was vastly impaired. As we set a
cruise climb attitude the CHT returned to normal and our climb rate
increased back to normal as well. The rest of the trip was
uneventful. We discussed the incident during the flight and talked
about what we would do differently next time. I think we both
realised how close we had come to what could have been a major
accident.