req: CFI job advice

[Gattman[_2_]]

Hey, all. I'm looking for a bit of wisdom here. Background is, I'm a
system administrator whose job just dissolved in a corporate buyout and,
after being promised that if I came over I'd keep my salary and title, I was
sleazed into a 30% paycut (given a single day to either sign it or hit the
road) and a new position that they've literally lie to interviewees to fill.
If you've seen Office Space, that's beyond the deal. To keep it short I'll
just say I'm done there as soon as I find another way to feed and insure my
family.

Yesterday at the FBO three miles from my house I overheard the manager and
chief instructor send a potential student across town, about 30 miles, to
Hillsboro because there's already a student waiting list due to an extreme
lack of instructors. The chief pilot said "It's going to be a hard winter
because we don't have -any- available instructors out here."

Their website has indicated for the last month that they're hiring CFIIs,
but they told me at this point they're hiring CFIs who intend to add the
second I. Basically, they're desperate (I did not identify myself as a
CFI-student.) Despite the 50% cut in pay, my internal ADF is pointing
right to their front door.

I have a $600/mo house payment, a one year old and a wife who will be out of
college (second degree, already getting lucrative job offers) in the spring.
We have enough money saved to get by until then, but before I approach them
for a full-time job (they claim instructors work 40-50 hour weeks) I'm
hoping to find out what questions I should ask them and if there's anything
I need to know. I finished my Commercial in June and I'm ready for the
FOI. My wife agrees that my current work situation cannot hold out until
she graduates.

Any advice or hazards I should beware of?

-chris
CP-ASEL-IA

[AustinMN]

On Aug 30, 11:40 am, "Gattman" > wrote:
> To keep it short I'll
> just say I'm done there as soon as I find another way to feed and insure my
> family.

Have you asked about the "insure" part? I think you'll find it's a
fair bit more than a 50% cut when all the fringe is figured in.

Austin

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 30, 9:40 am, "Gattman" > wrote:
> Hey, all. I'm looking for a bit of wisdom here. Background is, I'm a
> system administrator whose job just dissolved in a corporate buyout and,
> after being promised that if I came over I'd keep my salary and title, I was
> sleazed into a 30% paycut (given a single day to either sign it or hit the
> road) and a new position that they've literally lie to interviewees to fill.
> If you've seen Office Space, that's beyond the deal. To keep it short I'll
> just say I'm done there as soon as I find another way to feed and insure my
> family.
>
> Yesterday at the FBO three miles from my house I overheard the manager and
> chief instructor send a potential student across town, about 30 miles, to
> Hillsboro because there's already a student waiting list due to an extreme
> lack of instructors. The chief pilot said "It's going to be a hard winter
> because we don't have -any- available instructors out here."
>
> Their website has indicated for the last month that they're hiring CFIIs,
> but they told me at this point they're hiring CFIs who intend to add the
> second I. Basically, they're desperate (I did not identify myself as a
> CFI-student.) Despite the 50% cut in pay, my internal ADF is pointing
> right to their front door.
>
> I have a $600/mo house payment, a one year old and a wife who will be out of
> college (second degree, already getting lucrative job offers) in the spring.
> We have enough money saved to get by until then, but before I approach them
> for a full-time job (they claim instructors work 40-50 hour weeks) I'm
> hoping to find out what questions I should ask them and if there's anything
> I need to know. I finished my Commercial in June and I'm ready for the
> FOI. My wife agrees that my current work situation cannot hold out until
> she graduates.
>
> Any advice or hazards I should beware of?
>
> -chris
> CP-ASEL-IA

There are two ways to instruct
1) Work at FBO, get lots of hours, make about $15/hr
2) Work for yourself, work between 0-10 hours per week and making $50/
hr. As you build a reputation you will get more hours but its rare for
an independant CFI to not have a second job.

-Robert, CFII

[Gattman[_2_]]

"AustinMN" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 30, 11:40 am, "Gattman" > wrote:
>> To keep it short I'll
>> just say I'm done there as soon as I find another way to feed and insure
>> my
>> family.
>
> Have you asked about the "insure" part? I think you'll find it's a
> fair bit more than a 50% cut when all the fringe is figured in.

Indeed I did. That's the prime consideration right now.

-c

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> There are two ways to instruct
> 1) Work at FBO, get lots of hours, make about $15/hr
> 2) Work for yourself, work between 0-10 hours per week and making $50/
> hr. As you build a reputation you will get more hours but its rare for
> an independant CFI to not have a second job.

Thank you for this advice! The current situation is that there's a
contract shop on the north side (where I fly now) and a full-time shop on
the south side. I would prefer to remain loyal to my own FBO, but it's hard
to "build a reputation" with zero CFI experience under my belt, so if I eked
along full time until summer and then went back to contracting I'd at least
have some experienced logged, maybe some references...

The company I'm at told me I'd need to take a 23% paycut so I said I needed
that in writing. It took them over a week to get it to me as such, but when
they did it was a 30% paycut along with a rider saying I wouldn't trash-talk
the company by name for six months after I quit, and I had to sign it on the
spot. Who knows what they'll do tomorrow.

By the way, having been in the internet/telecom industry since 1995, I can
tell you guys that another collapse is coming if the upstart companies don't
come up for air. It's like 1999-2000 all over again; sales is writing
checks the technology can't cash, selling products that are not yet
technically possible. Management takes credit for success but not
responsibility for failure. It's like the dot com bubble burst, but all the
people in the industry who weren't directly affected by it are now managers,
making the same bad decisions and creating a new bubble.

I went down with the first ship. Not doing it again.

-c

[El Maximo]

"Gattman" > wrote in message
...

> The company I'm at told me I'd need to take a 23% paycut so I said I
> needed that in writing. It took them over a week to get it to me as such,
> but when they did it was a 30% paycut along with a rider saying I wouldn't
> trash-talk the company by name for six months after I quit, and I had to
> sign it on the spot. Who knows what they'll do tomorrow.

So.... If you DO trash talk the company, what will they do? Give you back
yout 30%?

Seriously, good luck with your decision.

Some things to consider (I don't know the answers - just thinking out loud)

Does the 40 hour per week place offer benefits?

If you end up using COBRA for insurance, check with the place to see if it's
cheaper to go direct. I left EDS back in 1999, and went through them for
Blue Cross. They threw me off due to a paperwork glitch (The posted a
payment as a 'deposit' on my account, and posted everything else as late.)
It turned out it was cheaper for me to go direct with Blue Cross because my
family was young and healthy, where the EDS 'group' was not.

Do you need to sign a non-compete with anyone if you sign up?

Also, watch out for that baby. He'll be heading off to college before you
know it. That's when you'll learn that two can live a cheaply as one.

[Gattman[_2_]]

"El Maximo" > wrote in message
...
> "Gattman" > wrote in message

> Some things to consider (I don't know the answers - just thinking out
> loud)
>
> Does the 40 hour per week place offer benefits?
>
> If you end up using COBRA for insurance, check with the place to see if
> it's cheaper to go direct. I left EDS back in 1999, and went through them
> for Blue Cross. They threw me off due to a paperwork glitch (The posted a
> payment as a 'deposit' on my account, and posted everything else as late.)
> It turned out it was cheaper for me to go direct with Blue Cross because
> my family was young and healthy, where the EDS 'group' was not.
>
> Do you need to sign a non-compete with anyone if you sign up?

Those were the exact sorts of tips I was looking for. Thanks!


-c

[El Maximo]

"Gattman" > wrote in message
...

>
> Those were the exact sorts of tips I was looking for. Thanks!
>
One more note. Go ask a few of the CFIs how many hours they REALLY get paid
for. Being the skeptic that I am, I wouldn't believe the owner who says that
the CFIs fly 40 hours per week. That means the planes are in for 100 hour
inspections every 2 and a half week.

What is a pay-hour? An hour that you are there, or an hour that's billed?

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

And take into account weather cycles. Will you have anything to produce $
if the weather turns to pot for several weeks?
Jim

"El Maximo" > wrote in message
...
> "Gattman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > Those were the exact sorts of tips I was looking for. Thanks!
> >
> One more note. Go ask a few of the CFIs how many hours they REALLY get
paid
> for. Being the skeptic that I am, I wouldn't believe the owner who says
that
> the CFIs fly 40 hours per week. That means the planes are in for 100 hour
> inspections every 2 and a half week.
>
> What is a pay-hour? An hour that you are there, or an hour that's billed?
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 30, 12:56 pm, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> "Gattman" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Those were the exact sorts of tips I was looking for. Thanks!
>
> One more note. Go ask a few of the CFIs how many hours they REALLY get paid
> for. Being the skeptic that I am, I wouldn't believe the owner who says that
> the CFIs fly 40 hours per week. That means the planes are in for 100 hour
> inspections every 2 and a half week.
>
> What is a pay-hour? An hour that you are there, or an hour that's billed?

I have never heard of an FBO paying CFIs for the hours you are there.
You get paid a percentage of the hours that are billed directly as
your hours. If you bill the customer for 1 hour of ground you get paid
for 1 hour, if you call it 1/2 hour since you were talking about
Hooters part of the time, you get paid 1/2 hour. A lot of CFIs are
afraid to charge for the hours (especially ground ) that they work.
BTW: Some FBOs are easier to work with than others. FBOs that don't
tightly run the show often have situations where the previous CFI is
1/2 hour late returning the plane so you lose a 1/2 hour of pay. Other
shops will dress you down if you bring the plane back 1/2 hour after
the time you booked it to be back.

-Robert, CFII

[Jim Logajan]

"Jim Burns" > wrote:
> And take into account weather cycles. Will you have anything to
> produce $ if the weather turns to pot for several weeks?

Since he is the Portland Oregon area, that will definitely happen during
the winter months.

[Robert M. Gary]

BTW: Most FBOs require that you carry your own liability insurance.
That can be an additional expense and something you want to ask about.

[buttman]

On Aug 30, 12:56 pm, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> "Gattman" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Those were the exact sorts of tips I was looking for. Thanks!
>
> One more note. Go ask a few of the CFIs how many hours they REALLY get paid
> for. Being the skeptic that I am, I wouldn't believe the owner who says that
> the CFIs fly 40 hours per week. That means the planes are in for 100 hour
> inspections every 2 and a half week.
>
> What is a pay-hour? An hour that you are there, or an hour that's billed?

Bingo. I always hear CFI's brag about flying 120+ hours a month, but I
seriously doubt that. Where I work, the weather is VFR just about 350
days a year. There hasn't been a weather related cancellation since
about February. That said, I hardly ever see 80 hours a week, a bit
more if you count in ground school and simulator hours. I work just
about 7 days a week, and I barely have time to sit down and catch my
breath. Its not uncommon I start at 8AM and end at 8PM (or later) with
only 5 or 6 hours of actual billed hours.

For instance, yesterday I was going to do a night flight. When me and
my student got there, the plane wasn't fueled up, so I had to walk
over to the hanger, start up the fuel truck, drive over to the ramp
and put fuel in. As I'm doing that, the student preflights. We get it
started, taxi up to the ramp, and the left mag is running way rough.
So we taxi back. I go inside, get another plane and start the whole
process all over again, with the fuel truck and all. Then when we got
to our destination, we had to fuel up again, which is off the Hobbs as
well.

All said and done, the 4 hour flight ended up taking 6 hours to
complete. Thats fairly typical. I guess if you freelance, you can
charge the student for all that time, but if you're freelance, you're
going to have to deal with a lot more "back scene" stuff anyways...
Just something to think about.

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Jim Burns" > wrote:
>> And take into account weather cycles. Will you have anything to
>> produce $ if the weather turns to pot for several weeks?
>
> Since he is the Portland Oregon area, that will definitely happen during
> the winter months.

Yep. Even on CAVU days there can still be a 40mph gorge wind. One of
the factors I'm considering.
-c

[Bob Fry]

Flight instructing is like being a grad student or post-doc: lousy pay
and hours but you're building experience to something better. Or
consider it as pursuing a hobby for free. The point is that a CFI
rarely can make a career at instructing.

If that works with your situation, great. I'm just saying don't have
some starry-eyed notion of nobly teaching young lads and lassies the
essence of flight while supporting a family. But you don't sound like
a dreamer in your OP.
--
When I was a kid my favorite relative was Uncle Caveman. After
school we'd all go play in his cave, and every once in a while he
would eat one of us. It wasn't until later that I found out that
Uncle Caveman was a bear.
- Jack Handey

[BillJ]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> On Aug 30, 12:56 pm, "El Maximo" > wrote:
>
>>"Gattman" > wrote in message
>>
...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Those were the exact sorts of tips I was looking for. Thanks!
>>
>>One more note. Go ask a few of the CFIs how many hours they REALLY get paid
>>for. Being the skeptic that I am, I wouldn't believe the owner who says that
>>the CFIs fly 40 hours per week. That means the planes are in for 100 hour
>>inspections every 2 and a half week.
>>
>>What is a pay-hour? An hour that you are there, or an hour that's billed?
>
>
> I have never heard of an FBO paying CFIs for the hours you are there.
> You get paid a percentage of the hours that are billed directly as
> your hours. If you bill the customer for 1 hour of ground you get paid
> for 1 hour, if you call it 1/2 hour since you were talking about
> Hooters part of the time, you get paid 1/2 hour. A lot of CFIs are
> afraid to charge for the hours (especially ground ) that they work.
> BTW: Some FBOs are easier to work with than others. FBOs that don't
> tightly run the show often have situations where the previous CFI is
> 1/2 hour late returning the plane so you lose a 1/2 hour of pay. Other
> shops will dress you down if you bring the plane back 1/2 hour after
> the time you booked it to be back.
>
> -Robert, CFII
>
Try to show ways that the FBO can use you during off hours. You maybe
can so software/network support, mow grass, help mechanic, write
ads/promotional, clean the restrooms, etc. But there are lots of jobs
that often just need to be asked for.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

buttman wrote:
> That said, I hardly ever see 80 hours a week, a bit
> more if you count in ground school and simulator hours.

That's pretty good for time building. I do have one question for you though.

Do your students know that you are known as "buttman" on USENET?

[Gattman[_2_]]

"BillJ" > wrote in message
...

> Try to show ways that the FBO can use you during off hours. You maybe can
> so software/network support, mow grass, help mechanic, write
> ads/promotional, clean the restrooms, etc. But there are lots of jobs that
> often just need to be asked for.

Brilliant! I'm a router/network geek, system administrator, project
manager and technical writer. I should be able to come up with something.

It's off-topic to explain what I'm up against here, but this is all very
useful. Thanks!

-c

[cjcampbell]

On Aug 30, 9:40 am, "Gattman" > wrote:
> Hey, all. I'm looking for a bit of wisdom here. Background is, I'm a
> system administrator whose job just dissolved in a corporate buyout and,
> after being promised that if I came over I'd keep my salary and title, I was
> sleazed into a 30% paycut (given a single day to either sign it or hit the
> road) and a new position that they've literally lie to interviewees to fill.
> If you've seen Office Space, that's beyond the deal. To keep it short I'll
> just say I'm done there as soon as I find another way to feed and insure my
> family.
>
> Yesterday at the FBO three miles from my house I overheard the manager and
> chief instructor send a potential student across town, about 30 miles, to
> Hillsboro because there's already a student waiting list due to an extreme
> lack of instructors. The chief pilot said "It's going to be a hard winter
> because we don't have -any- available instructors out here."
>
> Their website has indicated for the last month that they're hiring CFIIs,
> but they told me at this point they're hiring CFIs who intend to add the
> second I. Basically, they're desperate (I did not identify myself as a
> CFI-student.) Despite the 50% cut in pay, my internal ADF is pointing
> right to their front door.
>
> I have a $600/mo house payment, a one year old and a wife who will be out of
> college (second degree, already getting lucrative job offers) in the spring.
> We have enough money saved to get by until then, but before I approach them
> for a full-time job (they claim instructors work 40-50 hour weeks) I'm
> hoping to find out what questions I should ask them and if there's anything
> I need to know. I finished my Commercial in June and I'm ready for the
> FOI. My wife agrees that my current work situation cannot hold out until
> she graduates.
>
> Any advice or hazards I should beware of?
>
> -chris
> CP-ASEL-IA

I know Hillsboro. Check out the time sheets to see what hours the CFIs
are really getting paid for. And be prepared to carry your own
insurance.

I doubt that you could make enough to cover your house payment and
support your family, although a few manage to do it. The thing is,
right now the airlines are grabbing people with only a couple hundred
hours.

If being a CFI is so great, ask Hillsboro why they have an instructor
shortage.

[tom418]

"Other shops will dress you down if you bring the plane back 1/2 hour after
the time you booked it to be back."

1/2 hour late and they chew you out? LOL. Back in the late 60's when I was a
student at Zahn's (Amityville, NY), I would spend over 1 hour on a Sunday,
waiting for my 11AM "appointment" to show up. And you couldn't reserve a
particluar Cherokee 140, or J-3. You took what you got . : (

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Aug 30, 12:56 pm, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> > "Gattman" > wrote in message
> >
> > ...
> >
> >
> >
> > > Those were the exact sorts of tips I was looking for. Thanks!
> >
> > One more note. Go ask a few of the CFIs how many hours they REALLY get
paid
> > for. Being the skeptic that I am, I wouldn't believe the owner who says
that
> > the CFIs fly 40 hours per week. That means the planes are in for 100
hour
> > inspections every 2 and a half week.
> >
> > What is a pay-hour? An hour that you are there, or an hour that's
billed?
>
> I have never heard of an FBO paying CFIs for the hours you are there.
> You get paid a percentage of the hours that are billed directly as
> your hours. If you bill the customer for 1 hour of ground you get paid
> for 1 hour, if you call it 1/2 hour since you were talking about
> Hooters part of the time, you get paid 1/2 hour. A lot of CFIs are
> afraid to charge for the hours (especially ground ) that they work.
> BTW: Some FBOs are easier to work with than others. FBOs that don't
> tightly run the show often have situations where the previous CFI is
> 1/2 hour late returning the plane so you lose a 1/2 hour of pay. Other
> shops will dress you down if you bring the plane back 1/2 hour after
> the time you booked it to be back.
>
> -Robert, CFII
>

[Gattman[_2_]]

"cjcampbell" > wrote in message
>
> I know Hillsboro. Check out the time sheets to see what hours the CFIs
> are really getting paid for. And be prepared to carry your own
> insurance.

I've heard that they're a CFI mill...low pay and high turnover as people
move on to other commercial operations.
Works for me as long as it pays the minimum cost of living. If not, I can't
do it.

> I doubt that you could make enough to cover your house payment and
> support your family, although a few manage to do it. The thing is,
> right now the airlines are grabbing people with only a couple hundred
> hours.

Pretty much everybody is losing CFIs around here, although I hear what
you're saying. Hopefully the laws of supply and demand will become a factor
here.

> If being a CFI is so great, ask Hillsboro why they have an instructor
> shortage.

From what I overheard, they're all moving up to the feeders. (I didn't blow
in and announce that I was looking for a CFI job. I just hung out for
awhile and listened to the employees, which was a stroke of luck.) I would
rather mop floors than deal with what's happening here right now.

-c

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 30, 2:49 pm, "tom418" > wrote:
> "Other shops will dress you down if you bring the plane back 1/2 hour after
> the time you booked it to be back."
>
> 1/2 hour late and they chew you out? LOL. Back in the late 60's when I was a
> student at Zahn's (Amityville, NY), I would spend over 1 hour on a Sunday,
> waiting for my 11AM "appointment" to show up. And you couldn't reserve a
> particluar Cherokee 140, or J-3. You took what you got . : (


Yea, but when you're a CFI who drove down to the airport to fly with
your student and you end up sitting around for 1/2 hour waiting for
the airplane, you develop little sympathy for those who return planes
late.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 30, 1:24 pm, buttman > wrote:

> All said and done, the 4 hour flight ended up taking 6 hours to
> complete. Thats fairly typical.

Yes, totally! That is a very good description of a CFI's life. The
other problem is when a student schedules you and the airplane for 4pm
and then shows up at 4pm, then grabs the book, drives out the plane,
preflights, orders fuel, etc and 45 minutes later your clock starts.
Most pre-private students go into a rage if you try to charge them
while they preflight and you drink coffee in the office, but the truth
is, you can't do anything else with that time and they booked you.

-Robert

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Gattman wrote:
> Hey, all. I'm looking for a bit of wisdom here. Background is, I'm a
> system administrator whose job just dissolved in a corporate buyout and,
> after being promised that if I came over I'd keep my salary and title, I was
> sleazed into a 30% paycut (given a single day to either sign it or hit the
> road) and a new position that they've literally lie to interviewees to fill.
> If you've seen Office Space, that's beyond the deal. To keep it short I'll
> just say I'm done there as soon as I find another way to feed and insure my
> family.
>
> Yesterday at the FBO three miles from my house I overheard the manager and
> chief instructor send a potential student across town, about 30 miles, to
> Hillsboro because there's already a student waiting list due to an extreme
> lack of instructors. The chief pilot said "It's going to be a hard winter
> because we don't have -any- available instructors out here."
>
> Their website has indicated for the last month that they're hiring CFIIs,
> but they told me at this point they're hiring CFIs who intend to add the
> second I. Basically, they're desperate (I did not identify myself as a
> CFI-student.) Despite the 50% cut in pay, my internal ADF is pointing
> right to their front door.
>
> I have a $600/mo house payment, a one year old and a wife who will be out of
> college (second degree, already getting lucrative job offers) in the spring.
> We have enough money saved to get by until then, but before I approach them
> for a full-time job (they claim instructors work 40-50 hour weeks) I'm
> hoping to find out what questions I should ask them and if there's anything
> I need to know. I finished my Commercial in June and I'm ready for the
> FOI. My wife agrees that my current work situation cannot hold out until
> she graduates.
>
> Any advice or hazards I should beware of?
>
> -chris
> CP-ASEL-IA
>
>
I'd give the situation a LONG hard look if I were you before devoting a
ton of time into developing a CFI position full time.
With a family and responsibilities, I'm not saying it absolutely can't
be done, but it's been my experience that it's highly unlikely it will
work out the way you might be envisioning it at this point.
You can of course, considering your wife is gainfully employed, work a
CFI rating into a part time position that augments your wife's salary,
but if my experience in the instruction community is an indicator, you
might find the "augmenting" a bit less than you might be expecting.
I know of few FBO's running instruction programs that work a CFI at 40
hours a week PAID time. Between the weather, aircraft down time, and
everything else that gets in the way, I'd be amazed to see you producing
40 revenue hours a week in today's GA environment.

I realize this will be a personal decision for you based on information
I don't have at hand, but if you actually can use my experience in the
community, I would advise you to go ahead and get the CFI, but plan to
use it as a part time endeavor rather than full time. I would plan for
permanent employment outside the CFI environment in your chosen career
field and augment your combined career earnings with money earned as an
instructor.
I know many CFI's who have gone the part time route and have ended up
fairly happy with that decision. Conversely, I know of not one CFI
employed full time with a mortgage, a family, a car, insurance, and
college tuitions to look forward to who is making it on today's CFI salary.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...

> The other problem is when a student schedules you and the airplane for 4pm
> and then shows up at 4pm, then grabs the book, drives out the plane,
> preflights, orders fuel, etc and 45 minutes later your clock starts.
> Most pre-private students go into a rage if you try to charge them
> while they preflight and you drink coffee in the office, but the truth
> is, you can't do anything else with that time and they booked you.

Ohhh, man... I guess owe my CFI an apology. I always thought that was what
I was -supposed- to do. On the flipside, I've never had a problem
preflighting and hanging out while she finished up a previous lesson, so
hopefully she doesn't completely hate me.


-c

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...

> I know many CFI's who have gone the part time route and have ended up
> fairly happy with that decision. Conversely, I know of not one CFI
> employed full time with a mortgage, a family, a car, insurance, and
> college tuitions to look forward to who is making it on today's CFI
> salary.

Thanks for the advice. As a sysadmin I was able to put away a little money
just in case something ever happened (the company laid me off once
previously) so I could cover the difference for the few months until she
finishes classes even if I just worked part-time. If possible I'm going to
hold out until she's done. The problem is, this company has gone merger
crazy and every time they acquire somebody you have to compete for your own
job and accept increasingly-lower pay and benefits if you keep it. They
hire people for one position and as soon as you agree to do it, you're put
somewhere other than what they applied for, 'cause they can't keep people
legitimately.

Most recently I had to sign a contract rider for a job I already have that
says I won't badmouth the company for six months after I quit. That's an
indicator that it's going to get ugly.

-c

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Gattman wrote:
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I know many CFI's who have gone the part time route and have ended up
>> fairly happy with that decision. Conversely, I know of not one CFI
>> employed full time with a mortgage, a family, a car, insurance, and
>> college tuitions to look forward to who is making it on today's CFI
>> salary.
>
> Thanks for the advice. As a sysadmin I was able to put away a little money
> just in case something ever happened (the company laid me off once
> previously) so I could cover the difference for the few months until she
> finishes classes even if I just worked part-time. If possible I'm going to
> hold out until she's done. The problem is, this company has gone merger
> crazy and every time they acquire somebody you have to compete for your own
> job and accept increasingly-lower pay and benefits if you keep it. They
> hire people for one position and as soon as you agree to do it, you're put
> somewhere other than what they applied for, 'cause they can't keep people
> legitimately.
>
> Most recently I had to sign a contract rider for a job I already have that
> says I won't badmouth the company for six months after I quit. That's an
> indicator that it's going to get ugly.
>
> -c
>
>
Sounds like a perfect excuse for doing some serious networking exploring
another company down the line.
Best of luck with your CFI adventure.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "GM" == Gattman > writes:

GM> Most recently I had to sign a contract rider for a job I
GM> already have that says I won't badmouth the company for six
GM> months after I quit.

To get even more off-topic, that seems unenforceable, I violation of
the free speech clause of the US Constitution. Non-disclosure of
company secrets, sure. Non-compete, maybe. Non-trash-talk?

--
My mother loved children ... she would have given anything if I had
been one.
Groucho Marx

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 30, 6:12 pm, Bob Fry > wrote:
> >>>>> "GM" == Gattman > writes:
>
> GM> Most recently I had to sign a contract rider for a job I
> GM> already have that says I won't badmouth the company for six
> GM> months after I quit.
>
> To get even more off-topic, that seems unenforceable, I violation of
> the free speech clause of the US Constitution. Non-disclosure of
> company secrets, sure. Non-compete, maybe. Non-trash-talk?

Its pretty common. I work in the software/telco industry and usually
when you quit they give you an extra month's pay for signing it.
Basically they don't want you disrupting customers, future employees,
etc. "bad mount" is a generic term. However, in my experience, there
are as many jobs as you can want, all paying well into the 6 figures.
However, I work on the software design side designing software to do
fault and provisioning on network elements. Certainly a different type
of position than an IT guy.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

Gattman > wrote:

> Brilliant! I'm a router/network geek, system administrator, project
> manager and technical writer. I should be able to come up with something.

> It's off-topic to explain what I'm up against here, but this is all very
> useful. Thanks!

Please email me a resume.

I promise nothing, but I occasionally need little stuff done when my
regulars get overloaded and it's easier to start looking from resumes on
hand.

FWIW, I would look around for other guys like me as one of my regulars
makes a decent living on small stuff from a bunch of contacts he
established.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[buttman]

On Aug 30, 2:09 pm, "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
wrote:
> buttman wrote:
> > That said, I hardly ever see 80 hours a week, a bit
> > more if you count in ground school and simulator hours.
>
> That's pretty good for time building. I do have one question for you though.
>
> Do your students know that you are known as "buttman" on USENET?

I don't think they would care.

And I meant 80 hours a month, not week. So far in the month of August,
I've logged 78.1 hours which is the most I've ever logged for one
month. In July I logged 50.1, but I ended up working more, due to all
the simulator time I had to do.

[James Sleeman]

On Aug 31, 6:23 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> There are two ways to instruct
> 1) Work at FBO, get lots of hours, make about $15/hr
> 2) Work for yourself, work between 0-10 hours per week and making $50/

I often wonder how instructors (in a general collective sense) managed
to get themselves into this ridicuous low pay situation.

Being a flight instructor is supposed to be a position of knowledge,
responsibility, respect, and all that, and yet, for some reason they
command a pittance of a wage comparatively.

The same is true really of most career pilots, even for airline
pilots, considering the weight on thier shoulders, the money isn't
really that amazing.

[Dallas]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:58:16 -0700, James Sleeman wrote:

> I often wonder how instructors (in a general collective sense) managed
> to get themselves into this ridicuous low pay situation.

Supply and demand.

If Enzo Ferrari ran an ad for Ferrari test drivers in Italy paying
$3.00/hour he would get a million resumes and one of them would me mine.

:-)

--
Dallas

[Really-Old-Fart]

In rec.aviation.piloting, on Thu 30 Aug 2007 06:48:47p, Dudley Henriques
> wrote:

> I'd give the situation a LONG hard look if I were you before devoting
> a ton of time into developing a CFI position full time.
> With a family and responsibilities, I'm not saying it absolutely can't
> be done, but it's been my experience that it's highly unlikely it will
> work out the way you might be envisioning it at this point.

I've known CFIs who also were waiters at restaurants and they said that
they made more money as a waiter than they did as a CFI. They said that
they were just trying to get the hours in so that they could get hired by
one of the smaller commuter airliners or whatever. The way that I
understand it, being a CFI at a flight school is just "paying your dues" to
the eventual goal of becoming an ATP. There are exceptions though... I
knew one older CFI who had retired from some profession and he did it
because he actually *liked* it.

[Matt Whiting]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>> "GM" == Gattman > writes:
>
> GM> Most recently I had to sign a contract rider for a job I
> GM> already have that says I won't badmouth the company for six
> GM> months after I quit.
>
> To get even more off-topic, that seems unenforceable, I violation of
> the free speech clause of the US Constitution. Non-disclosure of
> company secrets, sure. Non-compete, maybe. Non-trash-talk?
>

How is it a violation of the 1st amendment? Nobody is forcing him to
sign the agreement. He is self-censoring and that isn't a violation of
the Constitution.

Matt

[Really-Old-Fart]

In rec.aviation.piloting, on Thu 30 Aug 2007 07:06:41p, "Gattman"
> wrote:

> Ohhh, man... I guess owe my CFI an apology. I always thought that
> was what I was -supposed- to do. On the flipside, I've never had a
> problem preflighting and hanging out while she finished up a previous
> lesson, so hopefully she doesn't completely hate me.

Well, considering the fact that the previous lesson is unlikely to get back
until the start time for your lesson, there's not much else you can do.
The flight schools that I have dealt with over the years have always billed
by aircraft time (Hobbs or tach). Very seldom have I ever been able to
squeeze a 1 hour flight out of a 1 hour booking slot.

[Really-Old-Fart]

In rec.aviation.piloting, on Fri 31 Aug 2007 01:22:37a, Dallas
> wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:58:16 -0700, James Sleeman wrote:
> If Enzo Ferrari ran an ad for Ferrari test drivers in Italy paying
> $3.00/hour he would get a million resumes and one of them would me
> mine.

Well, considering the fact that he died in 1988, the chance of that
happening are rather remote.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> Most pre-private students go into a rage if you try to charge them
> while they preflight and you drink coffee in the office, but the truth
> is, you can't do anything else with that time and they booked you.

My private instructor explained on day one that non-flying time would be
billed as "ground instruction" to fill the difference between the Hobbs
and day clock. Students are instructed that preflighting, fueling,
finding a pencil, draining the lizard, etc... are done before the lesson
is scheduled to start. In other words, you are paying for the block you
booked, it's up to you to use it.

Since all of this was laid out so clearly in writing, I've never heard
of anyone arguing about it. As a PP student, I was always ready to go
10 minutes or so before lesson start, except once. That one time, they
cut me some slack and didn't bill me for time I wasn't being instructed.


On the other hand, my instrument instructor was a free lancer (the same
guy as my PP, now self-employed) who I met at commuter parking lots via
car, or various airports for lessons. I'd drive and get ground
instruction for free. <G> Another time, I picked him up from an island
and flew him to his home base, so he could retrieve his plane and fly it
back to the island. I did the portions with him under the hood and in
some actual, flew IFR approaches, etc... for the cost of my gas.

[Doug Vetter]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:40:52 -0700, Gattman wrote:
> Any advice or hazards I should beware of?

Yea. Look for another IT job and do the CFI thing on the weekends so you
can concentrate on the enjoyment of teaching rather than where your
next dollar...er...student is going to come from. There are still a
relatively high number of companies to work for in the tech industry that
won't bust your balls...assuming you have decent skills and are not a
coat-tail rider like so many people who got into that business during the
dot-bomb era. You may have to move to get the new tech job, but they're
definitely out there.

It would be one thing if you were single. Then the sky is the limit.
I know one former techie who now flies a twin otter in skydiving
operations and he's having a blast. But I'm sure you're aware of your
responsibility to your family. The average salaries in the tech business
are barely able to support a family at this point. What makes you think
aviation will be any better? Hint: it won't be.

If you decide to throw caution and common sense to the wind and become a
full time CFI anyway, keep in mind a couple things:

1) You'll need to work for a school to develop experience. This is good
because the better ones will provide a framework in which you can learn
the ropes, provide an insurance protection for you, and give you a steady
stream of clients. This is bad because most schools treat CFIs like
garbage, and every school owner I've known has expected the CFIs to act as
secretary, accountant, janitor, line boy, and a serve a host of other
roles...unpaid of course.

2) No one will pay you $30-50 as an independent instructor unless you have
experience they want. More often than not today that involves
type-specific training ($$$$) that the average small town FBO / school
cannot provide. And when you are an independent, you're responsible for
all the things the school would otherwise provide for you, including that
essential client list. You're not really an independent CFI as much as an
independent business. If that doesn't scare you, you have never been in
business.

Tread carefully, my friend, and good luck.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "MW" == Matt Whiting > writes:

MW> How is it a violation of the 1st amendment? Nobody is forcing
MW> him to sign the agreement. He is self-censoring and that
MW> isn't a violation of the Constitution.

It may be. A voluntary agreement to be a slave is void in the USA,
because slavery--even voluntary--is unconstitutional.
--
"After Perl everything else is just assembly language."

[El Maximo]

"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
...
> You're not really an independent CFI as much as an
> independent business. If that doesn't scare you, you have never been in
> business.

Read, and re-read the above.

Freelancing on weekends is not "in business".

Reading the fine print on the credit card statements to figure out which one
gets the minimum balance and which one you skip is "in business".

The only full-time independent CFI I know if a retired schoolteacher.
Everyone else I know either works for a school, or only freelances
part-time.

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> "GM" == Gattman > writes:
>
> GM> Most recently I had to sign a contract rider for a job I
> GM> already have that says I won't badmouth the company for six
> GM> months after I quit.
>
> To get even more off-topic, that seems unenforceable, I violation of
> the free speech clause of the US Constitution. Non-disclosure of
> company secrets, sure. Non-compete, maybe. Non-trash-talk?

My wife is having a field day with it. She's in human resources and says
companies pull these kinds of stunts all the time. For example, many
companies in the tech industry have a clause that says they will fire you
for discussing your salary with other employees.

Turns out, they don't have to fire somebody for it to get sued for it. It's
illegal. But many companies either don't know it or they do it for as long
as they can get away with it.

-c

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Dallas" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:58:16 -0700, James Sleeman wrote:
>
>> I often wonder how instructors (in a general collective sense) managed
>> to get themselves into this ridicuous low pay situation.
>
> Supply and demand.
>
> If Enzo Ferrari ran an ad for Ferrari test drivers in Italy paying
> $3.00/hour he would get a million resumes and one of them would me mine.

Except, now there's a waiting list at the FBO for instructors to become
available, so supply and demand says it ought to be a really good time to be
a CFI...

-c

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

El Maximo wrote:
>
> The only full-time independent CFI I know if a retired schoolteacher.
> Everyone else I know either works for a school, or only freelances
> part-time.


Part time businesses are still businesses.

I've had them all my life. After a certain threshold, the income is
taxable. Once you hold yourself out, you get liability and
responsibility. Some jurisdictions may require you to colelct sales
taxes, register yourself, etc...

It usually makes no difference if the business is part or full time once
money starts changing hands.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Gattman wrote:
> Except, now there's a waiting list at the FBO for instructors to
> become available, so supply and demand says it ought to be a really
> good time to be a CFI...

There's a waiting list for students willing to pay for a $15/hr instructor.
If it goes up there may not any students at all. While supply and demand
works well on the macro level it doesn't always do so on the micro level.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 31, 3:55 am, "Really-Old-Fart" >
wrote:

> Well, considering the fact that the previous lesson is unlikely to get back
> until the start time for your lesson, there's not much else you can do.
> The flight schools that I have dealt with over the years have always billed
> by aircraft time (Hobbs or tach). Very seldom have I ever been able to
> squeeze a 1 hour flight out of a 1 hour booking slot.

If you like to spend 30 minutes preflighting, reviewing the logs etc,
please consider booking the plane at 4pm and the instructor at 4:30.
That way the instructor can continue with ground instruction or flight
instruction in another airplane while you take your time to prefilght.

-Robert, CFII

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 31, 8:37 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
wrote:
> Gattman wrote:
> > Except, now there's a waiting list at the FBO for instructors to
> > become available, so supply and demand says it ought to be a really
> > good time to be a CFI...
>
> There's a waiting list for students willing to pay for a $15/hr instructor.
> If it goes up there may not any students at all. While supply and demand
> works well on the macro level it doesn't always do so on the micro level.

No, supply and demand work great. As instruction rates go up, students
will drop off and there will be less demand such that supply and
demand will equal. We just don't like thinking about the idea that
demand for instruction will go down.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 31, 6:13 am, Bob Fry > wrote:
> >>>>> "MW" == Matt Whiting > writes:
>
> MW> How is it a violation of the 1st amendment? Nobody is forcing
> MW> him to sign the agreement. He is self-censoring and that
> MW> isn't a violation of the Constitution.
>
> It may be. A voluntary agreement to be a slave is void in the USA,
> because slavery--even voluntary--is unconstitutional.

No, we sign these agreements all the time in my industry. The courts
have provided guidelines for companies for these agreements. As I
recall they must be of reasonable time (usually 1-2 years), reasonable
scope (topics, etc), and reasonable geography.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 31, 8:00 am, "Gattman" > wrote:
> "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >>>>>> "GM" == Gattman > writes:
>
> > GM> Most recently I had to sign a contract rider for a job I
> > GM> already have that says I won't badmouth the company for six
> > GM> months after I quit.
>
> > To get even more off-topic, that seems unenforceable, I violation of
> > the free speech clause of the US Constitution. Non-disclosure of
> > company secrets, sure. Non-compete, maybe. Non-trash-talk?
>
> My wife is having a field day with it. She's in human resources and says
> companies pull these kinds of stunts all the time. For example, many
> companies in the tech industry have a clause that says they will fire you
> for discussing your salary with other employees.
>
> Turns out, they don't have to fire somebody for it to get sued for it. It's
> illegal. But many companies either don't know it or they do it for as long
> as they can get away with it.

Your wife may believe that but at least in California the courts have
provided us guidelines for such agreeements to make them enforcable.
This was almost a week of class of our employeement law course.
With regard to being sued, it makes no difference. In most states
anyone can sue anyone at any time for anything so it makes no sense to
worry about being sued. What you do is try to follow the guidelines
outlined by previous courts to ensure that the courts will look upon
you with favor. Besides, most all technology companies require binding
arbitration as part of their employment contract.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 31, 4:59 am, Doug Vetter > wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:40:52 -0700, Gattman wrote:
> > Any advice or hazards I should beware of?

> 1) You'll need to work for a school to develop experience. This is good
> because the better ones will provide a framework in which you can learn
> the ropes, provide an insurance protection for you, and give you a steady
> stream of clients. This is bad because most schools treat CFIs like
> garbage, and every school owner I've known has expected the CFIs to act as
> secretary, accountant, janitor, line boy, and a serve a host of other
> roles...unpaid of course.

All new CFIs should either work for a school or work closely with a
mentor (including having your mentor fly with your students on
occasion). There is a lot of on-the-job experience you need to gain as
a CFI and trying to learn it all yourself at the expense of your
students is not good. Every student is different, they will all have a
different part of the program that they have trouble with and you want
to consult with an experienced CFI as to the most efficient way to
address that student's issue and ensure they are ready to command the
aircraft themselves.


>
> 2) No one will pay you $30-50 as an independent instructor unless you have
> experience they want.

???? Maybe this is regional but asking $40 for primary students and
$50 for advanced students is not hard at all. I charge $40 when
instructing in 172's and the like and $50 in Mooneys/tailwheel and
have never had anyone say that they is excessive. I know CFIs who
charge $75/hr who are recommended by their type organization.

[Gattman[_2_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...

>> Turns out, they don't have to fire somebody for it to get sued for it.
>> It's
>> illegal. But many companies either don't know it or they do it for as
>> long
>> as they can get away with it.
>
> Your wife may believe that but at least in California the courts have
> provided us guidelines for such agreeements to make them enforcable.

(True: We're in Oregon. Different states handle that differently.)

[Really-Old-Fart]

In rec.aviation.piloting, on Fri 31 Aug 2007 11:29:55a, "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote:

> If you like to spend 30 minutes preflighting, reviewing the logs etc,
> please consider booking the plane at 4pm and the instructor at 4:30.
> That way the instructor can continue with ground instruction or flight
> instruction in another airplane while you take your time to prefilght.

If the plane just got back, I figure it's airworthy enough for me and I
would just give it a quick preflight (fuel, oil, and a quick shake to see
if anything falls off). Hell, it's not like we were going to have some
sort of problem and get stuck up there, ya know... By the time that the
instructor had finished reviewing the lesson with the previous student /
taken his money, I was usually ready to go. At the school where I went,
weekends were usually booked solid, so the instructor was going to be there
all day anyway. Of course, the school tended to prefer that the instructor
do all of his instructing when the engine was running so that they could
bill more for it. That's one of the reason that you would see one of their
aircraft sitting in the runup area with the instructor going over
everything they were going to be doing prior to takeoff. It tended to make
it rather inconvenient for cars who were driving to their hangar since
there often wasn't enough room to squeeze around them.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 31, 3:00 pm, "Really-Old-Fart" >
wrote:
> In rec.aviation.piloting, on Fri 31 Aug 2007 11:29:55a, "Robert M. Gary"
>
> > wrote:
> > If you like to spend 30 minutes preflighting, reviewing the logs etc,
> > please consider booking the plane at 4pm and the instructor at 4:30.
> > That way the instructor can continue with ground instruction or flight
> > instruction in another airplane while you take your time to prefilght.
>
> If the plane just got back, I figure it's airworthy enough for me and I
> would just give it a quick preflight (fuel, oil, and a quick shake to see
> if anything falls off).

I feel the same way but I don't discourage students who want to spend
30 minutes preflighting. If that is what they need to feel safe in the
airplane I don't rush them, I'd just like to not be in limbo during it
such that I can't develop any billable hours.

-Robert

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Aug 31, 3:00 pm, "Really-Old-Fart" >
> wrote:
>> In rec.aviation.piloting, on Fri 31 Aug 2007 11:29:55a, "Robert M. Gary"
>>
>> > wrote:
>>> If you like to spend 30 minutes preflighting, reviewing the logs etc,
>>> please consider booking the plane at 4pm and the instructor at 4:30.
>>> That way the instructor can continue with ground instruction or flight
>>> instruction in another airplane while you take your time to prefilght.
>> If the plane just got back, I figure it's airworthy enough for me and I
>> would just give it a quick preflight (fuel, oil, and a quick shake to see
>> if anything falls off).
>
> I feel the same way but I don't discourage students who want to spend
> 30 minutes preflighting. If that is what they need to feel safe in the
> airplane I don't rush them, I'd just like to not be in limbo during it
> such that I can't develop any billable hours.
>
> -Robert
>
I take an alternative approach. I consider preflight one of the prime
activities that come under the heading of a developed habit pattern. For
this reason I prefer students to start from the gitgo to consider the
preflight as an activity to be performed with a degree of consistancy
rather than an activity that is performed one way one time and another
way at other times. In other words, I don't like to see students using
an abbreviated form of a preflight inspection.
It doesn't take all that long to do a normal preflight if done correctly
as opposed to some form of abbreviated preflight on an airplane that has
just returned from a flight.
The message I am aiming at in encouraging complete preflights is a
simple one. I want a new student to develop a habit pattern immediately
that REGARDLESS of the fact that an airplane might have just been flown
and returned and parked safely, that airplane is now transitioning from
one pilot to another pilot and the RESPONSIBILITY for the condition of
that airplane is now the responsibility of the next pilot to fly that
airplane.
The point here is that I don't want the pilots I train to EVER....and I
repeat it again...EVER, accept the responsibility for the safety of the
aircraft they are about to fly based on the last pilot's preflight and
the fact that the airplane has returned safely and parked.
If nothing else, something that went unnoticed during the last landing
and taxi in just might have caused damage to the point where it's ready
to fail.
Naturally, the immediate condition of the airplane is the obvious reason
I stress complete preflights.

The other less obvious reason is that all important mental conditioning
and habit pattern development we as instructors must impart to every
student we teach to fly; that as a pilot in command, you only get ONE
chance to preflight an aircraft before you take off in it. After
takeoff, it's way too late is anything is wrong.
It is your absolute and completely individual responsibility to make
absolutely certain that you personally have made the decision that the
aircraft is safe to fly based on your OWN observation.
When it comes to preflight, nothing should be assumed about the
condition of an aircraft. Proper preflight calls for a personal
inspection and that means a NORMAL preflight.
Keep in mind this is the way I do things personally and the procedures I
teach. I am aware that there might be other instructors who don't
approach this issue the way I do.


--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

One way to increase CFI salaries is to form a powerful organization
called the AFIA (American Flight Instructor Association) that deems
that nobody can become a CFI without 8000 hrs total time including
2000 hrs of aerobatics, and at least a 100 Atlantic crossings in a
single engine and 5 yrs of advanced ground school. All CFIs have to be
evaluated and blessed by the AFIA before they can start instructing.
The reason for the stringent requirements would be of course that
flight instruction is a serious activity and only the best should
have the privilege to do so.
This is the only known way to beat the free market.

On Aug 31, 9:31 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Aug 31, 8:37 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Gattman wrote:
> > > Except, now there's a waiting list at the FBO for instructors to
> > > become available, so supply and demand says it ought to be a really
> > > good time to be a CFI...
>
> > There's a waiting list for students willing to pay for a $15/hr instructor.
> > If it goes up there may not any students at all. While supply and demand
> > works well on the macro level it doesn't always do so on the micro level.
>
> No, supply and demand work great. As instruction rates go up, students
> will drop off and there will be less demand such that supply and
> demand will equal. We just don't like thinking about the idea that
> demand for instruction will go down.
>
> -Robert

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 00:00:45 +0200 (CEST), "Really-Old-Fart"
> wrote:
>
>If the plane just got back, I figure it's airworthy enough for me and I
>would just give it a quick preflight (fuel, oil, and a quick shake to see
>if anything falls off). Hell, it's not like we were going to have some
>sort of problem and get stuck up there, ya know...

That works for the airlines. <G>

I do the same. If my co-owner lands and sez' it flew great, I do a
walk around, oil & fuel check, maybe clean the windshield, and off I
go!

[john hawkins]

Right on Dudley!

I was taught that way and I did a "full" preflight every time unless the
airplane was not out of my sight from the time I parked it until the tile I
went back out to preflight.


"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
>[snip]

> The message I am aiming at in encouraging complete preflights is a simple
> one. I want a new student to develop a habit pattern immediately that
> REGARDLESS of the fact that an airplane might have just been flown and
> returned and parked safely, that airplane is now transitioning from one
> pilot to another pilot and the RESPONSIBILITY for the condition of that
> airplane is now the responsibility of the next pilot to fly that airplane.
> The point here is that I don't want the pilots I train to EVER....and I
> repeat it again...EVER, accept the responsibility for the safety of the
> aircraft they are about to fly based on the last pilot's preflight and the
> fact that the airplane has returned safely and parked.

[snip]