"Fly Baby, you violated Class B Airspace"

[Ron Wanttaja]

There I was, flying along fat dumb and happy. I punch the mike button: "Auburn
Traffic, Fly Baby 848 turning downwind for touch-and-go."

A voice comes up: "Fly Baby, you violated Class B Airspace!"

It took me a bit aback. My home field is ~2-3 miles away from a ground-level
extension of the Sea-Tac Class B, so one has to be a bit careful. But I've been
flying from this airport for over 20 years; I've been careful.

I key the mike: "I'm only a quarter-mile from the airport!"

"You flew over Redondo!"

Anyone flying over Redondo *would* be in Class B, all right. But that was four
miles away.

And I had just taken off! I had returned to the airport environs about ten
minutes earlier (taking the careful route past the Class B) and had been
shooting touch-and-goes since then.

My guess is the guy saw someone in the distance go over Redondo, then tuned in
to the CTAF at Auburn (S50). Since I was the next guy to call about entering
the downwind, he assumed I had been the plane he'd seen. As I flew downwind, I
noticed a red-and-white Cessna 180/185 go past about 500 feet pass overhead,
flying to the Southeast. That's about the right heading for Redondo to Auburn,
so I figured it was the plane the other guy had spotted.

One interesting aspect: The guy making the accusation never gave his aircraft's
call sign. Wonder if it was the guy *in* the Cessna, trying to find someone
else to take the rap? :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote:

> you violated Class B Airspace!"

That's towards the top of the list of Things a Pilot Hates to Hear.


> My guess is the guy saw someone in the distance go over Redondo, then tuned
> in
> to the CTAF at Auburn (S50). Since I was the next guy to call about
> entering
> the downwind, he assumed I had been the plane he'd seen.

Who cares what he thought he saw? He's not the FAA - screw him.

> One interesting aspect: The guy making the accusation never gave his
> aircraft's call sign.

That figures.

--
Dan

"You were pretty hard on the Beaver last night, Ward."
-June Cleaver

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, said:
>There I was, flying along fat dumb and happy. I punch the mike button: "Auburn
>Traffic, Fly Baby 848 turning downwind for touch-and-go."
>
>A voice comes up: "Fly Baby, you violated Class B Airspace!"

File an ASRS *right* *now*.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
The biggest problem with democracy is that it is, in effect, the rule
by the whim of the moment.
-- Keith Glass

[Dave[_5_]]

I think that the lesson to be learned here is that you should never -
ever - respond to anonymous transmissions (for anything short of an
imminent midair). Just ignore 'em

David Johnson

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote
>
> File an ASRS *right* *now*.

You think so? If he is really 100% positive it was not him, then that
should not be necessary. They would have to be able to prove it with radar
tracks, right?

I'm still not clear as to who it was that made the "you just violated..."
call. If it was ATC, then a call to the supervisor might be in order, but
otherwise, it didn't exist, IMHO.
--
Jim in NC

[Shirl]

"Morgans" > wrote:
> I'm still not clear as to who it was that made the "you just violated..."
> call. If it was ATC, then a call to the supervisor might be in order, but
> otherwise, it didn't exist, IMHO.

In this neck o' the woods, if someone violates Class B airspace and ATC
knows who it is, they don't reprimand on the radio, they give a phone
number to call when you're on the ground. It isn't up to you to decide
what to do if you've gone into Class B airspace without the clearance.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

> In a previous article, said:
> >There I was, flying along fat dumb and happy. I punch the mike button:
> >"Auburn
> >Traffic, Fly Baby 848 turning downwind for touch-and-go."
> >
> >A voice comes up: "Fly Baby, you violated Class B Airspace!"
>
> File an ASRS *right* *now*.

I second the motion! An ASRS report will protect you in case things get
nasty.

[Mxsmanic]

Ron Wanttaja writes:

> One interesting aspect: The guy making the accusation never gave his aircraft's
> call sign. Wonder if it was the guy *in* the Cessna, trying to find someone
> else to take the rap? :-)

He's not ATC, so there's no rap to take.

[Mxsmanic]

Orval Fairbairn writes:

> I second the motion! An ASRS report will protect you in case things get
> nasty.

How can things get nasty? Another pilot is not ATC.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 06:51:46 +0200, Mxsmanic > wrote:

>Ron Wanttaja writes:
>
>> One interesting aspect: The guy making the accusation never gave his aircraft's
>> call sign. Wonder if it was the guy *in* the Cessna, trying to find someone
>> else to take the rap? :-)
>
>He's not ATC, so there's no rap to take.

Dozens of pilots on 122.8 heard someone say that a Fly Baby violated the Class B
at the south end of Sea-Tac Class B. If ATC *did* notice someone cutting across
the airspace and the FAA started an investigation, no doubt someone might tell
them, "I heard it was a Fly Baby." If the guy making the radio call had been
the guy who cut across, he's just misdirected the investigators.

Ron Wanttaja

[Thomas Borchert]

Dave,

> I think that the lesson to be learned here is that you should never -
> ever - respond to anonymous transmissions (for anything short of an
> imminent midair). Just ignore 'em
>

Fully agree.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:30:13 -0700, Shirl >
wrote:
>
>In this neck o' the woods, if someone violates Class B airspace and ATC
>knows who it is, they don't reprimand on the radio, they give a phone
>number to call when you're on the ground. It isn't up to you to decide
>what to do if you've gone into Class B airspace without the clearance.

Same in my neck.

The ol' "Call this number when you land" at towered fields, or there's
a line person waiting or on the CTAF with the message on non-towered
fields. No actual reprimand happens on the radio.

[Jay Honeck]

> >He's not ATC, so there's no rap to take.
>
> Dozens of pilots on 122.8 heard someone say that a Fly Baby violated the Class B
> at the south end of Sea-Tac Class B. If ATC *did* notice someone cutting across
> the airspace and the FAA started an investigation, no doubt someone might tell
> them, "I heard it was a Fly Baby." If the guy making the radio call had been
> the guy who cut across, he's just misdirected the investigators.

File the NASA form, Ron. It's cheap, easy, and may protect you. We
did one, once, when Mary was dumped into Class D by an approach
controller.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote

> Dozens of pilots on 122.8 heard someone say that a Fly Baby violated the
> Class B
> at the south end of Sea-Tac Class B. If ATC *did* notice someone cutting
> across
> the airspace and the FAA started an investigation, no doubt someone might
> tell
> them, "I heard it was a Fly Baby." If the guy making the radio call had
> been
> the guy who cut across, he's just misdirected the investigators.

Which I would think that the investigators know is a common trick, and
lacking any more evidence, would tell them that they don't have a case, and
it would go no further.

Am I being overly optimistic?
--
Jim in NC

[Viperdoc[_3_]]

The NASA report may protect you, if you can demonstrate that any incursion
was inadvertent. The typical course is that you might get a call form the
FSDO in around a week or so as part of the initial investigation.

There are two possible responses- you did not do what they assert, or you
can admit guilt. You should know that if you admit anything, it can be used
against you in an administrative action. In other words, Miranda somehow
doesn't apply.

So, if you're the honest type and say- yes, I did enter the bravo by
mistake, your statement can be used against you, with possible actions like
suspensions, revocations, remedial training, etc as a result.

I suspect that unless the guys at the bravo tracon had nothing better to do,
the matter will never go anywhere. Besides, how would they get your N
number? How did they know it was you who was flying the plane? They would
have a lot of paperwork and a big case to prove (unless you admit you did
something over the phone).

So, go ahead and file the NASA report, but it will likely not come to mean
anything.

Good luck.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:07:28 -0400, "Morgans" > wrote:

>
> "Ron Wanttaja" > wrote
>
> > Dozens of pilots on 122.8 heard someone say that a Fly Baby violated the
> > Class B
> > at the south end of Sea-Tac Class B. If ATC *did* notice someone cutting
> > across
> > the airspace and the FAA started an investigation, no doubt someone might
> > tell
> > them, "I heard it was a Fly Baby." If the guy making the radio call had
> > been
> > the guy who cut across, he's just misdirected the investigators.
>
> Which I would think that the investigators know is a common trick, and
> lacking any more evidence, would tell them that they don't have a case, and
> it would go no further.
>
> Am I being overly optimistic?

I think the chance of any action being taken over this is near-nil. I ain't
worried...but it's interesting to speculate on how something *could* happen.
"Chances near-nil" isn't the same as "never." The ASRS form? Ohhhhh, yeah.
Already done.

As far as talking to the guy on the radio, I'm not concerned in this case. We
had a brief exchange, at the end of which he grudgingly admitted that it
probably hadn't been me. This wasn't a situation where a person flying some
anonymous Cessna was accused; I have the only Fly Baby within ~60 miles. I'd
just as soon quash any doubt that I take short cuts across the Class B. If this
would have been the "You jerk, you cut me off!" sort of thing, I would have
ignored it.

After all, I hear those all the time. :-)

A lot of folks are cautious about Auburn Airport because of the proximity of the
extension of the Sea-Tac Class B. As you can see from this VFR chart...

http://www.seaartcc.net/controller/training/images/VFRroute.jpg

....Auburn is just east of the bottom right corner of the keyway. Since all
patterns are on the *west* side, people not familiar with the area are concerned
about catching the corner. BTW, Redondo, the area where the plane supposedly
cut through the Class B, is on th coastline where it turns north right above the
"+" at the bottom of the keyway.

I've been flying from Auburn for ~25 years (and only have had a transponder for
the last ten of those). As I mentioned on my original post, I invariably go
feet-dry at Dash Point, fly due east until I hit a local mall that is near the
power lines shown on the chart linked above, then follow the power lines to the
45-entry point.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "S" == Shirl > writes:

S> and ATC knows who it is, they don't reprimand on the radio,
S> they give a phone number to call when you're on the ground.

I busted a VIP TFR 1.5 years ago. Learned some things for the future:

- If ATC or anyone else asks you to "call this number" you're under no
obligation to do so. It might be a good thing to do, or not. But you
are not required to do so. In my case I did call back which was not a
good thing.

- If you do speak to a federal person don't make false statements. You
can not answer questions but don't make false answers. In my case I
told them everything, which was not a good thing.

- ASRS ("get out of jail free")? Can be meaningless. I filed and it
didn't do squat for me, not even the extra time they added on besides
the TFR violation, for failing to get a briefing.

- If you're a professional pilot you simply must have an attorney before
talking to the feds. If you violate a FAR your best course of action
may not at all be obvious.
--
We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't
scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys
me.
- Jack Handey

[Denny]

Just to reiterate what was said above - never ever, answer some
anonymous voice on the radio.. Continue making your position reports
and go about your business...

However there are limits... I take my plane to another field for
mechanic work... We had just finished the annual on my Super Viking,
pushed the plane out on the ramp and did the run up with extensive mag
checks, etc. (had just put brand new mags on it), and brought the oil
(fresh) temperature intot he green... Pushed it back inside (cuz it
was 20 degrees ) and put the cowlings back on... The mechanics shop
is right off the end of the runway... 20 minutes later pushed it back
out, fired up, taxied, rolled onto the runway and took off...

As the gear was coming up this 'anonymous voice' comes on stating that
I just violated reg # so-and-so because I did not do a run up and mag
check and prop cycle and I had not stopped at the hold short line and
yadda yadda...
Now, I had been ignoring this a-hole and his anonymous rantings for
the previous three or four years and it was just getting worse...
Because it was a dark, cold, December afternoon there were only 3 cars
on the entire field, in front of the terminal, so I knew where the
blowhard had to be... For whatever reason, he had finally flipped my
switch...
So I announced that the Viking was making a 180 and downwind emergency
landing! And I did... As I entered the terminal there were two guys
sitting there...
"Where is the a**hole?"
They laughed and pointed towards the road where I could see tail
lights disappearing in the rapidly gathering darkness... "He just
remembered his wife wanted him to get some bread for supper."
I left them with some specific instructions for the future for them to
relay to Mr. Radio... He apparently got the message because it has
been over ten years and while I see him on the field once in a while,
the radio has been silent...

denny

[Mxsmanic]

Denny writes:

> As the gear was coming up this 'anonymous voice' comes on stating that
> I just violated reg # so-and-so because I did not do a run up and mag
> check and prop cycle and I had not stopped at the hold short line and
> yadda yadda...
> Now, I had been ignoring this a-hole and his anonymous rantings for
> the previous three or four years and it was just getting worse...
> Because it was a dark, cold, December afternoon there were only 3 cars
> on the entire field, in front of the terminal, so I knew where the
> blowhard had to be... For whatever reason, he had finally flipped my
> switch...
> So I announced that the Viking was making a 180 and downwind emergency
> landing! And I did... As I entered the terminal there were two guys
> sitting there...
> "Where is the a**hole?"
> They laughed and pointed towards the road where I could see tail
> lights disappearing in the rapidly gathering darkness... "He just
> remembered his wife wanted him to get some bread for supper."
> I left them with some specific instructions for the future for them to
> relay to Mr. Radio... He apparently got the message because it has
> been over ten years and while I see him on the field once in a while,
> the radio has been silent...

Was he transmitting from the ground, outside an aircraft? If so, did he have
a license to do so?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Denny writes:
>
>> As the gear was coming up this 'anonymous voice' comes on stating
>> that I just violated reg # so-and-so because I did not do a run up
>> and mag check and prop cycle and I had not stopped at the hold short
>> line and yadda yadda...
>> Now, I had been ignoring this a-hole and his anonymous rantings for
>> the previous three or four years and it was just getting worse...
>> Because it was a dark, cold, December afternoon there were only 3
>> cars on the entire field, in front of the terminal, so I knew where
>> the blowhard had to be... For whatever reason, he had finally flipped
>> my switch...
>> So I announced that the Viking was making a 180 and downwind
>> emergency landing! And I did... As I entered the terminal there
>> were two guys sitting there...
>> "Where is the a**hole?"
>> They laughed and pointed towards the road where I could see tail
>> lights disappearing in the rapidly gathering darkness... "He just
>> remembered his wife wanted him to get some bread for supper."
>> I left them with some specific instructions for the future for them
>> to relay to Mr. Radio... He apparently got the message because it has
>> been over ten years and while I see him on the field once in a while,
>> the radio has been silent...
>
> Was he transmitting from the ground, outside an aircraft? If so, did
> he have a license to do so?
>

What's it to you?


you will never fly.

Ever


Bertie

[Skylune]

On Sep 2, 9:57 pm, Dave > wrote:
> I think that the lesson to be learned here is that you should never -
> ever - respond to anonymous transmissions (for anything short of an
> imminent midair). Just ignore 'em
>
> David Johnson

Agreed. Ignore transmissions, flight patterns, ATC instructions. Pay
attention only to Phil Boyer.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Skylune wrote:
> On Sep 2, 9:57 pm, Dave > wrote:
>> I think that the lesson to be learned here is that you should never -
>> ever - respond to anonymous transmissions (for anything short of an
>> imminent midair). Just ignore 'em
>>
>> David Johnson
>
> Agreed. Ignore transmissions, flight patterns, ATC instructions. Pay
> attention only to Phil Boyer.

Oh Skylune. All of the things you mentioned above are not anonymous
transmissions. Unlike your posts.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article om>,
Skylune >

mouthed a bunch of hay and straw and brayed:

> On Sep 2, 9:57 pm, Dave > wrote:
> > I think that the lesson to be learned here is that you should never -
> > ever - respond to anonymous transmissions (for anything short of an
> > imminent midair). Just ignore 'em
> >
> > David Johnson
>
> Agreed. Ignore transmissions, flight patterns, ATC instructions. Pay
> attention only to Phil Boyer.

Paying attention to Boyer sure beats paying attention to Skyloon!

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>File the NASA form, Ron. It's cheap, easy, and may protect you. We
>did one, once, when Mary was dumped into Class D by an approach
>controller.

Did the feds actually contact you about this, or are you saying that you
filed the form "just in case"? The ATC handbook is pretty clear about
responsibility for Approach dumping someone into a class D. It's their
responsibility to coordinate with the class D tower.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Mike Beede]

In article >,
Jay Honeck > wrote:

> > >He's not ATC, so there's no rap to take.
> >
> > Dozens of pilots on 122.8 heard someone say that a Fly Baby violated the Class B
> > at the south end of Sea-Tac Class B. If ATC *did* notice someone cutting across
> > the airspace and the FAA started an investigation, no doubt someone might tell
> > them, "I heard it was a Fly Baby." If the guy making the radio call had been
> > the guy who cut across, he's just misdirected the investigators.
>
> File the NASA form, Ron. It's cheap, easy, and may protect you. We
> did one, once, when Mary was dumped into Class D by an approach
> controller.

My understanding is that if you file the form, you're maybe relieved
for the thing you report. How is being relieved of responsibility
for not doing anything (which I presume is what you would
report) going to do any good? The alternative is to say that
you _did_ do something that you didn't. Which seems like an even
worse idea.

Of course, if he decides he might have actually busted class B,
that's a different story, but he seemed pretty certain that wasn't
what happened.

Mike Beede

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Skylune wrote:
>
> Agreed. Ignore transmissions, flight patterns, ATC instructions. Pay
> attention only to Phil Boyer.

Persnonally, I prefer Phil's speeches on auto-repeat via my Ipod and
"Shameful" aftermarket aux. input, through my Bose headset with no aux.
input or bass and treble contols.

[cjcampbell]

On Sep 2, 3:42 pm, Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
> There I was, flying along fat dumb and happy. I punch the mike button: "Auburn
> Traffic, Fly Baby 848 turning downwind for touch-and-go."
>
> A voice comes up: "Fly Baby, you violated Class B Airspace!"
>

What a jerk. Guess he did not want you to know who he was for a
reason, eh? I would file the ASRS form simply because people like that
are hazards to flight safety -- and the transmission might indicate
that somebody (although not you) might have violated the class B and
is trying to cover it up by blaming it on someone else. The jerk might
also be the sort who would call up ATC and report you. Who knows?
Maybe he thought you cut him off in the pattern and he wanted to get
back at you.

Establishing that there is a pattern of that kind of behavior in the
area might help protect other pilots who are accused of violating the
class B.

Sea-Tac's class B gets violated a lot, though. They don't have any way
of finding out who it is and they usually don't do anything beyond
telling pilots "Don't do that."