Fatal accident in Scotland

[Ian]

Anyone know any more about this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6975317.stm

Ian (in Scotland)

[Dan G]

Only what is in the news:

http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&ncl=1120261998&hl=en

Extremely sad, and I wish the injured pilot a full and speedy
recovery.


Dan

[Ian]

On 3 Sep, 08:52, Dan G > wrote:
> Only what is in the news:
>
> http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&ncl=1120...
>
> Extremely sad, and I wish the injured pilot a full and speedy
> recovery.>
> Dan

Thanks. I've also heard through another route that the glider was the
Scottish Gliding Association ASH-25, SSC.

Ian

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Ian wrote:
> On 3 Sep, 08:52, Dan G > wrote:
>> Only what is in the news:
>>
>> http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&ncl=1120...
>>
>> Extremely sad, and I wish the injured pilot a full and speedy
>> recovery.>
>> Dan
>
> Thanks. I've also heard through another route that the glider was the
> Scottish Gliding Association ASH-25, SSC.
>
There's also a report in the Scotsman, not quoted here so far as I'm
aware, that adds some minor details:

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1399822007

It mentions another crash, this time on launch at Welland and also on
Sunday.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dan G]

The link I posted above no longer works. However, the name of the
pilot has now been released:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1661329.0.0.php

All our thoughts are with his family, I'm sure.


Dan

[Dan G]

On Sep 3, 8:21 pm, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> It mentions another crash, this time on launch at Welland and also on
> Sunday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/6975780.stm

A Welland member has posted on uras that it was a wing-drop on a winch
launch. Perhaps it is worth noting that it's only a few weeks since
the AAIB published their investigation into fatal winch-launch last
year, when a pilot did not release in a timely manner when his wing
dropped, contary to the BGA Safe Winch Launching advice.


Dan

[alvaro.aguayo]

It seems it has been a rather fatal sunday. This is another accident
near Gap, France. Anyone has more info?
(sorry the link is in French)

http://www.orange.fr/bin/frame.cgi?u=http%3A//marseille.ville.orange.fr/direct/index.html%3Fdirect/listeactu/070902172526.eiefi7vi

[bagmaker]

This is terrible news, with another winch launching death in Australia on the weekend.

Condolances to all touched by these horrible events.

On another thread JJ Sinclair offered temporary sticks/supports for wings about to depart from outlanding alone.

Has anyone used such a temporary strut system for winching?

Hang glider pilots use dollies during ground roll, with few failures, can we change our ways with a bit of kit to keep the wing off the ground for the first 3 seconds?

bagger

PS

I have long been considering a flexible strut (think Falke) inbuilt to the winglet/trailing edge of new gliders (mainly SLMGs) to assist in lone take-offs.

This strut would rotate electrically with the landing gear actuation and although limited to the height of the winglet, would keep the tip well off the ground during landing and takeoff.
I offered the idea to Jonkers in full but got no reply- would anyone else like to run with it?

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:58:34 +0100, bagmaker
> wrote:

>
>This is terrible news, with another winch launching death in Australia
>on the weekend.
>
>Condolances to all touched by these horrible events.
>
>On another thread JJ Sinclair offered temporary sticks/supports for
>wings about to depart from outlanding alone.
>
>Has anyone used such a temporary strut system for winching?

Why not simply keep the left hand *very* close to the release handle
as suggested by standard operating procedure?




Bye
Andreas

[bagmaker]

;552084']On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:58:34 +0100, bagmaker
wrote:


This is terrible news, with another winch launching death in Australia
on the weekend.

Condolances to all touched by these horrible events.

On another thread JJ Sinclair offered temporary sticks/supports for
wings about to depart from outlanding alone.

Has anyone used such a temporary strut system for winching?

Why not simply keep the left hand *very* close to the release handle
as suggested by standard operating procedure?




Bye
Andreas


Simply, Andreas,

Some of these pilots are quite experienced, they would have known the procedures, I dont know if they observed them and its not for me to speculate.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, wings are dropping and crashes are occuring with terribly sad results.

I am just looking outside the box for a possible answer.

Bagger
(not trying to sell anything at all)

[Ian]

On 4 Sep, 10:37, Andreas Maurer > wrote:

> Why not simply keep the left hand *very* close to the release handle
> as suggested by standard operating procedure?

We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this: the pilot waved
one finger for "take up slack" and two for "all out". Thus the launch
didn't start until the signaller was assured that the pilot had a hand
free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels like it, and s/he
just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the release, and not
scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling with the GPS -
or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull off when the
wheel hits a bump.

I'm sure it will change back in due course.

Ian

[Markus Gayda]

Hi Ian,

Ian schrieb:
> We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this: the pilot waved
> one finger for "take up slack" and two for "all out". Thus the launch
> didn't start until the signaller was assured that the pilot had a hand
> free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels like it, and s/he
> just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the release, and not
> scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling with the GPS -
> or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull off when the
> wheel hits a bump.

I am sure that i would NOT want to signal a final "go" in a Discus or Mini-Nimbus.
The release handle is down at the bottom of the stick. With long trousers you
can have trouble grabbing it fast.
I made it a habit to put two fingers over it before launching (both winch and
aero-tow). That way i wont pull it inadvertendly (fingers are stretched out,
not really gripping the handle) but i am still able to release fast without
searching for the damn knob.

CU and happy landings,
Markus

[Andrew Warbrick]

This is mostly an attempt to rename a thread which
now has NO connection whatsoever with 925's crash on
Sunday.

As I understand it, the British system was changed
after accidents where pilots accepted a cable without
being ready to go and were winched off as a result
of, for example, scratching their noses. We can now
drill into pupils that you don't accept a cable until
you are ready to launch and your hand stays near the
release until the end of the launch, which will proceed
without any further pilot to launch marshal communication
being required.

It's a system which works well. If the pilot, for any
reason, wants to abort the launch they can pull the
release and shout 'stop'. The worst that can happen
in that case is the launch marshal fails to notice
and the cable has to be pulled back out.

At 14:42 04 September 2007, Markus Gayda wrote:
>Hi Ian,
>
>Ian schrieb:
>> We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this:
>>the pilot waved
>> one finger for 'take up slack' and two for 'all out'.
>>Thus the launch
>> didn't start until the signaller was assured that
>>the pilot had a hand
>> free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels
>>like it, and s/he
>> just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the
>>release, and not
>> scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling
>>with the GPS -
>> or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted
>>pull off when the
>> wheel hits a bump.
>
>I am sure that i would NOT want to signal a final 'go'
>in a Discus or Mini-Nimbus.
>The release handle is down at the bottom of the stick.
>With long trousers you
>can have trouble grabbing it fast.
>I made it a habit to put two fingers over it before
>launching (both winch and
>aero-tow). That way i wont pull it inadvertendly (fingers
>are stretched out,
>not really gripping the handle) but i am still able
>to release fast without
>searching for the damn knob.
>
>CU and happy landings,
>Markus
>

[Mark Dickson]

The system of winch launch signalling, in the UK, was
changed so that pilots had their fingers close to the
release on take-off; not sticking two fingers up in
the air. You are not meant to accept the cable until
you are ready to launch, all fiddling complete; you
accept the cable you are ready to go.

At 14:00 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
>
>We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this:
>the pilot waved
>one finger for 'take up slack' and two for 'all out'.
>Thus the launch
>didn't start until the signaller was assured that the
>pilot had a hand
>free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels
>like it, and s/he
>just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the
>release, and not
>scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling
>with the GPS -
>or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull
>off when the
>wheel hits a bump.
>
>I'm sure it will change back in due course.
>
>Ian
>
>

[Ian]

On 4 Sep, 15:59, Andrew Warbrick
> wrote:
> This is mostly an attempt to rename a thread which
> now has NO connection whatsoever with 925's crash on
> Sunday.
>
> As I understand it, the British system was changed
> after accidents where pilots accepted a cable without
> being ready to go and were winched off as a result
> of, for example, scratching their noses.


That was the claim. In reality, I think it was changed because Lasham
had a new CFI who wanted to make an impact on the gliding scene.

I'm all in favour of changing systems from time to time. When people
have to think about what they are doing they are less likely to make
accidents from unwarranted assumptions. I still don't like losing that
degree of control of the launch, though.

Ian

[Ian]

On 4 Sep, 16:02, Mark Dickson
> wrote:
> The system of winch launch signalling, in the UK, was
> changed so that pilots had their fingers close to the
> release on take-off; not sticking two fingers up in
> the air. You are not meant to accept the cable until
> you are ready to launch, all fiddling complete; you
> accept the cable you are ready to go.

Not meant to, no. However, I think there is another side: the cable
should not be offered to the glider unless the launch can proceed
immediately. All too often the cable is attached, then there is a
short delay, then the deay gets longer, then the pilot gets
distracted, then ...

The old system ensured that when the launch started, the pilot had a
had free. It may not have been in the right place, but at least it was
guaranteed not to be reprogramming a GPS ...

Ian

[Cats]

On Sep 4, 2:56 pm, Ian > wrote:
> On 4 Sep, 10:37, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>
> > Why not simply keep the left hand *very* close to the release handle
> > as suggested by standard operating procedure?
>
> We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this: the pilot waved
> one finger for "take up slack" and two for "all out". Thus the launch
> didn't start until the signaller was assured that the pilot had a hand
> free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels like it, and s/he
> just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the release, and not
> scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling with the GPS -
> or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull off when the
> wheel hits a bump.

We now have a system in which the pilot decides when to hand control
over to the launch point, by asking for the cable to be attached. He/
she shouldn't do that until the are absolutely ready to launch. When
launching I don't have a free hand, as one is on the stick and the
other is holding or touching the yellow knob. I wouldn't want to take
my hand off that yellow knob (especially in the Discus) as if I need
it in a hurry I can be sure I'll have trouble finding it. The one
time I've had to pull off I was glad all I had to do was do it, rather
than struggle to find the knob in a new type of glider.

So, personally, I hope we stick with the current system.

[Rory O'Conor[_2_]]

I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick, so I have no free hand for signallin=
g (at the all out stage)
=20
I am happy either for someone external to signal, or as at happened when I =
winched recently in France, to use the radio. I can also understand the use=
of a wings level signal (for up slack), but this does not work when you ha=
ve a glider full of water, which needs level wings prior to the start.
Rory
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaringSubject: Re: Winch launch procedure and acci=
dentsAuthor: Ian >Date/Time: 15:20 04 September 2=
007

>> As I understand it, the British system was changed> after accidents wher=
e pilots accepted a cable without> being ready to go and were winched off a=
s a result> of, for example, scratching their noses.
__________________________________________________ _______________
The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
http://www.newhotmail.co.uk=

[Ian]

On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
> wrote:
> I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
> I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch I want one hand on the =
> release and the other on the joystick,

"On" the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents that way!

Ian

[Andrew Warbrick]

Depends on your definition of 'on'. I have my fingers
'on' the release at the start of a winch lauch. By
that I mean that I rest two straight fingers on the
top of the release knob, either side of the cable.
What I don't do is curl my fingers round it unless
I need to pull it.

At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
>On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
> wrote:
>> I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
>> I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
>>I want one hand on the =
>> release and the other on the joystick,
>
>'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
>that way!
>
>Ian
>
>

[ucsdcpc]

FYI, quote from the BGA "SUPPLEMENT TO BGA ‘SAFE WINCH LAUNCHING’ LEAFLET" notes
for instructors:

"If the wing drops on the ground the glider may rotate about the wing tip and
cartwheel. If the wing drops in every hundredth launch, there will be one wing
drop accident in 800 wing drop incidents. This is a recipe for complacency and
indeed it is experienced pilots who have the majority of wing drop accidents.
After the wing has dropped the cartwheel can be so rapid that no recovery by
releasing or other means is possible. This hazard must be anticipated and
pre-empted by conducting the launch with the left hand on the release, and
releasing immediately if it is not possible to keep the wings level.




Andrew Warbrick wrote:
> Depends on your definition of 'on'. I have my fingers
> 'on' the release at the start of a winch lauch. By
> that I mean that I rest two straight fingers on the
> top of the release knob, either side of the cable.
> What I don't do is curl my fingers round it unless
> I need to pull it.
>
> At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
>> On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
>> wrote:
>>> I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
>>> I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
>>> I want one hand on the =
>>> release and the other on the joystick,
>> 'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
>> that way!
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Dan G]

On Sep 4, 10:55 pm, ucsdcpc > wrote:
> FYI, quote from the BGA "SUPPLEMENT TO BGA 'SAFE WINCH LAUNCHING' LEAFLET" notes
> for instructors:
>
> "If the wing drops on the ground the glider may rotate about the wing tip and
> cartwheel. If the wing drops in every hundredth launch, there will be one wing
> drop accident in 800 wing drop incidents. This is a recipe for complacency and
> indeed it is experienced pilots who have the majority of wing drop accidents.
> After the wing has dropped the cartwheel can be so rapid that no recovery by
> releasing or other means is possible. This hazard must be anticipated and
> pre-empted by conducting the launch with the left hand on the release, and
> releasing immediately if it is not possible to keep the wings level.
>

A timely quote. Please heed.

I don't quite understand some of the discussion here. Things are very
simple.

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do. (If you're still fiddling with
the GPS at this point you're an idiot.) Then, "cable on please". You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. There is
no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
accidently. Think about how hard you need to pull to operate the
release, then try to imagine how a launch could be so rough that your
arm could be moved enough to generate that same force against your
will. Not going to happen.

If, for any reason, you are no longer happy with proceeding with the
launch while waiting for it to commence you pull the release.

If a wing touches the ground you release instantly. I've seen four
ground loops in the last month, each one because the pilot thought the
glider would recover. Sometimes it will, sometime it won't. What the
hell is the point in gambling on that? It takes all of a minute to
reposition the glider and tug or winch cable.

It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
safe, and that's all that matters to me.


Dan

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G > wrote:

> You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
> checks complete, nothing left to do. (If you're still fiddling with
> the GPS at this point you're an idiot.) Then, "cable on please".

Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.

> You
> have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
> not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. There is
> no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
> accidently.

Perhaps you always fly from nice, smooth, paved runways?

> It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
> procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
> safe, and that's all that matters to me.

It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.

Ian

[Rory O'Conor[_2_]]

Ian

Yes, ON the release.
a) the BGA guidance quoted by others.
b) my SLMG has a grey, differently shaped, manual prop
brake lever next to the cable release. The former lever
is not useful during a wing drop.

I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
the ground run.

Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
beginning of the ground run.

Thanks

Rory

At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
>On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
> wrote:
>> I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
>> I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
>>I want one hand on the =
>> release and the other on the joystick,
>
>'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
>that way!
>
>Ian
>
>

[Tom Gardner]

On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian > wrote:
> On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G > wrote:
>
> > You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
> > checks complete, nothing left to do.

Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
and
state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

> Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
> Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
> that possibility.

Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
In what way isn't that a "safe system"?


> > You
> > have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
> > not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

That's my opinion, too. As an early solo neophyte who recently
experienced
my first low-level winch failure, heads down while groping for the
cable
release would have been too high a workload. In addition, there is a
significant chance I would have grabbed the airbrake instead of the
release.


> > It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
> > procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
> > safe, and that's all that matters to me.

I'm interested in
1) if I follow those standard rules, what are the remaining
potential
problems and avoidance procedures

2) what's the relative probability and severity of problems with/
without
hand on the release

I suspect the (2) is the reason for the BGA selecting the current
rules.

The onus is firmly on anybody challenging the current rules to
convince others that the rules should be changed.


> It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
> that accidents happen.

True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
or not the rules are good.

[Vaughn Simon]

"Dan G" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>You
> have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
> not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

I am trying to think back, but with most (if not all) gliders I have flown
this would not be practical because of the dash-mounted position of the release
knob. I was taught that my left hand went behind (not on) the spoiler handle to
guard it closed. Here it can prevent another type of launch accident and still
be very close to the release knob.

> There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
> accidently.

I have had some pretty violent launches. Things get bumpy when you are
rolling over grass on a single wheel at near-takeoff speeds.

Vaughn

[John Smith]

Dan G wrote:

> There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd
> pull the release accidently.

You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior. Forget to really
(I mean, *really*) thighten the harness, and you will slide back and
barely be able to push the stick forward. Ok, pilot's mistake, but I
would hate to inadvertently push the release at this point, which would
inevitably happen if I had grapped it.

[Dan G]

Ian and Vaughn, I fly from a *very* bumpy all-grass airfield. Several
power planes have lost their noseleg there, and someone once broke a
suspension arm on a 4x4 driving across it too fast. It's worth noting
that with a Tost hook you need to pull the release further on the
ground run than in the full climb to release the cable under tension
(and we're talking ~500 daN, not the little tug people give during
release checks). It's just not possible that you could pull the
release by accident.

(There's also been an incident where the pilot pulled the release but
his gloved hand slipped off the ball-shaped handle. You need a grip of
sufficient strength that when you pull the release, it will move. T-
handle releases are far better in this respect.)

Vaughn, I've not flown with a release mounted on the top of the dash,
but I've launched people flying gliders with such a release and they
always have their hand on it.

Vaughn and John, that's why you do pre-flight checks. I know some
people stop bothering once solo as this year I saw a Ka6 lose its
canopy and indeed an Astir launch with airbrakes open. "Airbrakes
symmetrical, closed, and locked."

There was a crash in 2005 where a possible cause was the pilot failing
to tighten his straps and then not being able to reach the stick:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/Glaser%20Dirks%20DG600%20Glider,%20BGA%203445%20(T ail%20No%20656).pdf


Dan

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

bagmaker wrote:
> Has anyone used such a temporary strut system for winching?
>
I wouldn't like that: you need the wings level, which would require a
very long support.

....snippage....

> I have long been considering a flexible strut (think Falke) inbuilt to
> the winglet/trailing edge of new gliders (mainly SLMGs) to assist in
> lone take-offs.
>
> This strut would rotate electrically with the landing gear actuation
> and although limited to the height of the winglet, would keep the tip
> well off the ground during landing and takeoff.
> I offered the idea to Jonkers in full but got no reply- would anyone
> else like to run with it?
>
Why limit it to the winglet height? Let it trail - it may not look
pretty but it could be longer, would be low drag and does not need the
TE to be thickened.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

John Smith wrote:
>
> You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior.
>
When I fly a Junior I have my elbow on the canopy rail to support my arm
and my straight fingers resting on top of the release "T" knob. This way
curling my fingers and a slight pull gives an instant release but jolts
(we have a grass field) can't cause an unintended release. For those
unfamiliar with the Junior, the release knob is right at the top of the
panel immediately under the cowl and projects straight back on a stiff
cable that prevents it flopping down.

The same approach works well in my Libelle, but this time my forearm is
on my thigh.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[John Smith]

Dan G wrote:

> Vaughn and John, that's why you do pre-flight checks.

Of course. But then, pilots do mistakes. Otherwise there would be no
accidents. So the point is to behave in a manner that you have options
even when you made a mistake or even two.

Of course I would grab the release knob if it were buried somewhere
between my legs. But I don't if it's easily reachable. I do touch it
once before takeoff though, as part of my departure briefing.

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian > wrote:
>
> > On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G > wrote:
>
> > > You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
> > > checks complete, nothing left to do.
>
> Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
> and
> state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.

> > Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
> > Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
> > that possibility.

> Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
> In what way isn't that a "safe system"?

How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute? What if the ground is
muddy and the pilot doesn;t want to make someone grovel in the mud
again to reattach? What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this)
is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long".

Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
charge ... and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and
launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch
after the hook-up.

My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the
pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to
do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled
off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do
it again if I have to ...

> > It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
> > that accidents happen.
>
> True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
> or not the rules are good.

I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.

Ian

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor
> wrote:

> I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
> the ground run.

Why.

> Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
> result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
> beginning of the ground run.

Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.

Ian

[Tom Gardner]

On Sep 5, 2:40 pm, Ian > wrote:
> On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> > On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian > wrote:
> > > On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G > wrote:
> > > > You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
> > > > checks complete, nothing left to do.
>
> > Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
> > and
> > state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.
>
> Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
> involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.

If anyone isn't ready to go, then the launch doesn't start.
If anyone thinks there's a problem, they can stop the launch.
I don't see any difficulty in that, and I can't conceive of
anything else being appropriate.


> > > Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
> > > Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
> > > that possibility.
> > Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
> > In what way isn't that a "safe system"?
>
> How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute?

Reasonable question. I would have thought that there was
no single correct answer and doesn't need to be;
judgement is required from everybody.

My only rule of thumb is that if people's attention might
wander away from thinking about the launch and/or
"eventualities", then drop the cable. Thus a minute is
probably usually OK, whereas 5 minutes isn't.

Other opinions welcome, of course.

> What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn't
> want to make someone grovel in the mud
> again to reattach?

The pilot is a twit if they let that sway a safety decision.

> What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this)
> is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long".

It depends on what "this" is, and I'd apply my "attention
test", as above.

> Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
> word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
> charge ...

Nope, it rests with everybody involved in the launch, in that all
must be happy before proceeding. In particular, the pilot can't
adequately see "all clear above and behind", nor the cow that
has just wandered onto the strip, just over that little hump
halfway down the strip :)

> and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and
> launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch
> after the hook-up.

See above.

> My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the
> pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to
> do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled
> off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do
> it again if I have to ...

I've never seen that, but if I did then I'd follow your action
(hopefully
without hesitation :)


> > > It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
> > > that accidents happen.
> > True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
> > or not the rules are good.
>
> I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.

The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
of the road :)

But both of us think the reason for the rule should be understood
before it is mindlessly followed!

[Tom Gardner]

On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian > wrote:
> On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor
>
> > wrote:
> > I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
> > the ground run.
>
> Why.
>
> > Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
> > result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
> > beginning of the ground run.
>
> Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.

Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me.
I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences.

[toad]

On Sep 5, 10:05 am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian > wrote:
>
> > On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor
>
> > > wrote:
> > > I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
> > > the ground run.
>
> > Why.
>
> > > Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
> > > result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
> > > beginning of the ground run.
>
> > Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.
>
> Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me.
> I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences.

The only nasty consequences I can think of happen if you pull the
release at 0-300 feet altitude. There is one less Discus (pilot was
OK) in the world because of this just recently. So start the ground
run with the hand on release, but remove it at liftoff.

Todd

[toad]

On Sep 5, 10:02 am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
....
> The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
> of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
> of the road :)

Hopefully, you convert mindfully when you are driving somewhere that
uses the right hand side of the road :-)

Todd
3S

[Tom Gardner]

On Sep 5, 3:41 pm, toad > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 10:05 am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian > wrote:
>
> > > On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
> > > > the ground run.
>
> > > Why.
>
> > > > Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
> > > > result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
> > > > beginning of the ground run.
>
> > > Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.
>
> > Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me.
> > I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences.
>
> The only nasty consequences I can think of happen if you pull the
> release at 0-300 feet altitude.

300'? Bloody big bump :)

> There is one less Discus (pilot was
> OK) in the world because of this just recently. So start the ground
> run with the hand on release, but remove it at liftoff.

I'm perfectly happy to believe that is correct, but I wonder
whether this is akin to the arguments about why seatbelts
can be dangerous in some circumstances. Balance of
probabilities and all that.

But considering dubious analogies with seatbelts is probably
a mistake!

[Tom Gardner]

On Sep 5, 3:44 pm, toad > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 10:02 am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> ...
>
> > The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
> > of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
> > of the road :)
>
> Hopefully, you convert mindfully when you are driving somewhere that
> uses the right hand side of the road :-)

No problems, except when in carparks, petrol stations, and
when emerging from them onto the road. It also helps if the
steering wheel is on the appropriate side of the car.

OTOH, "right" and "left" have to be replaced by "your way" and
"my way" since there is a demanding feeling that "turn right"
means "turn across oncoming traffic". Surprisingly, I'm not the
only person with those neurons in a twist!

[Frank Whiteley]

Someone posted these scanned S&G PDF files to the winchdesign group
today. I'd seen one before and had been looking for one of the
others. They may be posted elsewhere and familiar to some
contributing to this thread. So I've made them more widely available.

As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
(tall, damp grass > 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
down, get off.

http://www.coloradosoaring.org/winch_safety.htm

Frank Whiteley

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 15:02, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 2:40 pm, Ian > wrote:

> > Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
> > involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.
>
> If anyone isn't ready to go, then the launch doesn't start.

Indeed. Which gibves the pilot fiddling time ...

> > How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute?
>
> Reasonable question. I would have thought that there was
> no single correct answer and doesn't need to be;
> judgement is required from everybody.

Then you and up with a non-launching glider on a cable, the pilot
getting distracted, the signaller seeing an opportunity for a quick
launch and ... bang.

Actually, I agree with you. I just think that the pilot should
retain / have retained control.

> > What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn't
> > want to make someone grovel in the mud
> > again to reattach?
>
> The pilot is a twit if they let that sway a safety decision.

Might it not alter the judgment (see above) about how long to delay
pulling the bung?

> > Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
> > word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
> > charge ...
>
> Nope, it rests with everybody involved in the launch, in that all
> must be happy before proceeding.

Lots of people have input - your point about the check behind is very
good - but only one person can ever have a final word about anything.

> > I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.
>
> The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
> of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
> of the road :)

Even if you meet approaching walkers ...?

Ian

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley > wrote:

> As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
> (tall, damp grass > 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
> but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
> down, get off.

One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level.

Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to
hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a
cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down
and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing
is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.

Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
soon as the tip runner lets go.

Ian

[Rory O'Conor[_2_]]

> I do take my hand off the release towards the end of> the ground run.>Why=

[Jim Vincent]

The issue might not be violence, per se, but more the quick acceleration of
the launch compresses the seat pillow, moving the pilot back. Unless you're
on the ball, this can lead to unintended pull back on the stick. If your
hand is on the release, you might release by mistake. I prefer to keep my
knuckles on the release so I can easily reach it.

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dan G" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>You
>> have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
>> not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.
>
> I am trying to think back, but with most (if not all) gliders I have
> flown this would not be practical because of the dash-mounted position of
> the release knob. I was taught that my left hand went behind (not on) the
> spoiler handle to guard it closed. Here it can prevent another type of
> launch accident and still be very close to the release knob.
>
>> There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the
>> release
>> accidently.
>
> I have had some pretty violent launches. Things get bumpy when you
> are rolling over grass on a single wheel at near-takeoff speeds.
>
> Vaughn
>

[Jim Vincent]

In a crosswind, consider having the wing runner hold the upwind wing down so
the glider feels balanced. That angle should be very close to what the
pilot needs to control the drift. Then, there is no need to initiate a
aileron input since the wing is already at the angle needed to compensate
for drift.

"Ian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
>> As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
>> (tall, damp grass > 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
>> but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
>> down, get off.
>
> One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level.
>
> Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to
> hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a
> cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down
> and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing
> is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
> something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.
>
> Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
> right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
> drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
> logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
> soon as the tip runner lets go.
>
> Ian
>

[Neil]

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> John Smith wrote:
>>
>> You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior.
> >
> When I fly a Junior I have my elbow on the canopy rail to support my arm
> and my straight fingers resting on top of the release "T" knob. This way
> curling my fingers and a slight pull gives an instant release but jolts
> (we have a grass field) can't cause an unintended release. For those
> unfamiliar with the Junior, the release knob is right at the top of the
> panel immediately under the cowl and projects straight back on a stiff
> cable that prevents it flopping down.

I fly a Junior at my club (amongst other things), and do exactly the same
with it.

Neil

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Ian wrote:
> Wing runners, if the wing
> is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
> something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.
>
Good advice. I must remember that.

> Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
> right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
> drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
> logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
> soon as the tip runner lets go.
>
Yes, I've been there. Now I generally start a winch launch with all
controls neutral and the knowledge that I can correct fast enough to
keep straight and the wings level. The only exceptions are:

- I will start with some left rudder on a Junior if there's a strong
cross wind from the right - thanks to its left offset hook a Junior
will swing right under these conditions if given half a chance.

- I start a Std. Libelle winch launch on full forward trim and an
additional forward pressure - otherwise it WILL rotate too fast.
Once it starts to auto-rotate full down only just controls it, but
starting as I described gives a smooth lift-off and a nice
rotation when you want it.

I haven't yet dropped a wing on a winch launch, but my hand IS on the
release from "cable on" all the way to the top.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 5, 9:40 am, Ian > wrote:
> On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
> > (tall, damp grass > 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
> > but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
> > down, get off.
>
> One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level.
>
> Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to
> hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a
> cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down
> and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing
> is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
> something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.
>
> Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
> right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
> drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
> logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
> soon as the tip runner lets go.
>
> Ian

I agree about this and will let the wing down or up until the pilot
wakes up. In my case, there was no wind, just that the wing holder
had no clue and let it go as all out was given.

The RAF base commander, over protests, wasn't mowing the grass to let
the orchids bloom. The grass was cut for the next weekend after CFI
Mick B met with him.

In retrospect, perhaps we shouldn't have operated with the grass that
tall, though the wings of the K-4 and L-13 were much higher than mine.

Frank

[Tony Verhulst]

>>> You
>>> have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
>>> not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.
>
> That's my opinion, too.


That *used* to be my opinion. What changed it was hitting a severe bump
and watching the end of the rope continue without me. Now, I keep my
left hand *very* close to the release handle. No groping needed at all
should you need to release.

Tony V.

[Dan G]

Must say that once the cable is attached to my glider, I'm acutely
aware that the other end is connected to a 300 hp V8 engine. I don't
let go of the release for any reason, nor do I stop scanning sky and
ground for potential conflicts. This continues until either the launch
starts or someone shouts "release". If something spooks me, I drop the
cable myself.

At our club, the guy on the lights/radio is usually an instructor and
if not, a cool-headed, experienced individual. We also make sure the
wing runners know about the "running" part. In at least two of the
aerotow ground loops I saw in August (none of which occured at my home
club) the primary cause was the wing runner, well, not running. In
fact one guy was wearing flip flops which of course fell off, and he
stopped.


Dan

[Cats]

On Sep 5, 5:30 pm, "Jim Vincent" > wrote:
> The issue might not be violence, per se, but more the quick acceleration of
> the launch compresses the seat pillow, moving the pilot back. Unless you're
> on the ball, this can lead to unintended pull back on the stick. If your
> hand is on the release, you might release by mistake. I prefer to keep my
> knuckles on the release so I can easily reach it.
<snip>

Wrong kind of seat cushion?

[J a c k]

John Smith wrote:


> You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior. Forget to really
> (I mean, *really*) thighten the harness, and you will slide back and
> barely be able to push the stick forward.


Does your seat have a back?

We have blocks of wood you can bolt to the rudder pedals, if that will help.


Jack