Accepting cable/rope at start.

[Bill Daniels]

The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
ready to fly. I teach my students the same.

As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
rope, the student passes the test.

Bill Daniels

[[email protected]]

On Sep 4, 2:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> rope, the student passes the test.
>
> Bill Daniels

agreed Bill. When I was training in Marfa this is how I was taught
and this is how I teach my students. the rope doesnt get hooked until
CBSIFTCB is complete.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 4, 2:48 pm, wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> > not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> > ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> > As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> > pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> > pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> > Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> > rope, the student passes the test.
>
> > Bill Daniels
>
> agreed Bill. When I was training in Marfa this is how I was taught
> and this is how I teach my students. the rope doesnt get hooked until
> CBSIFTCB is complete.

E?

[[email protected]]

On Sep 4, 4:06 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2:48 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 4, 2:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > > The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> > > not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> > > ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> > > As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> > > pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> > > pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> > > Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> > > rope, the student passes the test.
>
> > > Bill Daniels
>
> > agreed Bill. When I was training in Marfa this is how I was taught
> > and this is how I teach my students. the rope doesnt get hooked until
> > CBSIFTCB is complete.
>
> E?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

frank, i usually do WET - Wind, Emergency plan, and Traffic while the
slack is coming out. while important, i can fly without them. i
would think that when doing auto or winch launching you would probably
want to have them done before hooking up. my only experience flying
or teaching is with aerotow.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 4, 3:53 pm, wrote:
> On Sep 4, 4:06 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 4, 2:48 pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 4, 2:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > > > The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> > > > not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> > > > ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> > > > As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> > > > pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> > > > pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> > > > Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> > > > rope, the student passes the test.
>
> > > > Bill Daniels
>
> > > agreed Bill. When I was training in Marfa this is how I was taught
> > > and this is how I teach my students. the rope doesnt get hooked until
> > > CBSIFTCB is complete.
>
> > E?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> frank, i usually do WET - Wind, Emergency plan, and Traffic while the
> slack is coming out. while important, i can fly without them. i
> would think that when doing auto or winch launching you would probably
> want to have them done before hooking up. my only experience flying
> or teaching is with aerotow.

Fair enough.

[John Smith]

schrieb:

> frank, i usually do WET - Wind, Emergency plan, and Traffic while the
> slack is coming out. while important, i can fly without them. i
> would think that when doing auto or winch launching you would probably
> want to have them done before hooking up. my only experience flying
> or teaching is with aerotow.

W & T agreed, but emergency plan? You could fly without an emergency plan?

On the winch maybe, because the options are pretty straight forward and
no brainers, but if I had a rope brake during an aerotow shortly after
being airborne, I damned sure would want to have a complete emergency
plan handy.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 4, 5:49 pm, John Smith > wrote:
> schrieb:
>
> > frank, i usually do WET - Wind, Emergency plan, and Traffic while the
> > slack is coming out. while important, i can fly without them. i
> > would think that when doing auto or winch launching you would probably
> > want to have them done before hooking up. my only experience flying
> > or teaching is with aerotow.
>
> W & T agreed, but emergency plan? You could fly without an emergency plan?
>
> On the winch maybe, because the options are pretty straight forward and
> no brainers, but if I had a rope brake during an aerotow shortly after
> being airborne, I damned sure would want to have a complete emergency
> plan handy.

yes, the glider will takeoff fine without an emergency plan. no it
will not necessarily takeoff fine with the canopy open, airbrakes out,
controls misrigged, ballast condition wrong etc.

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:09:12 -0700, wrote:


>yes, the glider will takeoff fine without an emergency plan.

Bold, Sir.



Bye
Andreas

[Dan G]

On Sep 4, 11:49 pm, John Smith > wrote:
>
> W & T agreed, but emergency plan? You could fly without an emergency plan?
>
> On the winch maybe, because the options are pretty straight forward and
> no brainers

If I had a penny for every pilot who thought that, then turned his
glider into a really big lawn dart...


Dan

[[email protected]]

The Emergency Plan Tony refers to is the "what to do if the tow fails"
plan. There are many versions of this which I've reduced to, "Tow
failure below 200 ft lower the nose and land ahead, above 200 lower
the nose and land ahead or behind". This is a simple verbal reminder
that a tow failure CAN happen along with the simple most basic issues
of critical speed and altitude. Many pilots I fly with (here in the
US) still say "above 200 feet land back at the airport" because this
is what we practice and demonstrate. However, if the towplane wasn't
hitting on all cylinders for a mile and a half when the rope goes
slack there may not be any way to get back to the airport! All the
200 feet mark really means is that: below 200 there isn't sufficient
altitude or time for turns and above 200 you may have time and
altitude for brief decisive maneuvering.

"Tow failure below 200 ft lower the nose and land ahead, above 200
lower the nose and land ahead or behind", is simple, brief and to the
point. If you are at 300 when the tow fails you CAN turn around but
you aren't pre-programmed to do so. You may have sufficient runway
remaining ahead or have a nice pasture off to the side.

I insist that the CBSIFTCB-WET is done OUT LOUD every time and the
rope is not accepted until at least CBSIFTCB is completed in order
without interuptions. Out loud, informs instructors, impresses
passengers, and allows ground crew to participate in crew resource
management. Just because we fly (mostly) single seat aircraft doesn't
mean we can't benefit from CRM. A single seat glider taking off with
a wing runner has at least 3 people working together. The pilot is in
command of the airplane but each member can perceive, process,
communicate, and affect the flight. The last checklist item T for
traffic is a perfect opportunity to signal the ground crew to look
around before you initiate the take-off. It takes only a couple of
seconds and they can see a lot that you can't from the cockpit. Using
CRM on the glider field is an easy and cheap way to enhance safety and
participation not only on the flight line but during preflight,
assembly, fueling, ground movements... Why not use all your
resources?

Matt Michael

[John Smith]

wrote:

> yes, the glider will takeoff fine without an emergency plan.

Of course it will. The question is whether it will land fine in case of
a rope break or another emergency.

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
ups.com...

Snipped good stuff

> "Tow failure below 200 ft lower the nose and land ahead, above 200
> lower the nose and land ahead or behind", is simple, brief and to the
> point. If you are at 300 when the tow fails you CAN turn around but
> you aren't pre-programmed to do so. You may have sufficient runway
> remaining ahead or have a nice pasture off to the side.

Snipped still more good stuff.

> Matt Michael
>

I would like to gently point out that in high density altitude situations
you may need quite a bit more than 200' AGL to get back to the runway on an
aero tow departure. 200 feet AGL is not a 'magic' number that assures a
safe return to the runway.

This past weekend flying from Salida, Colorado the density altitudes were
well above 10,000 feet each day. The climb gradient was so flat that you
were out of range until the tug made a turn back toward the airport which
meant that safe return required more than 500 feet AGL. Fortunately, there
were farm fields that could be used in an emergency.

This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.

Bill Daniels

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 5, 7:08 am, John Smith > wrote:
> wrote:
> > yes, the glider will takeoff fine without an emergency plan.
>
> Of course it will. The question is whether it will land fine in case of
> a rope break or another emergency.

Or whether the pilot inexplicably makes a 180 from 100ft

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 7476 Make/Model: GLID Description: SLINGSBY
GLIDER
Date: 09/02/2007 Time: 2055

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Serious Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Unknown

LOCATION
City: HUTCHINSON State: KS Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT WHILE BEING TOWED FOR DEPARTURE, CABLE DISENGAGED, STALLED
AND
CRASHED, HUTCHINSON, KS

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 1 Min:
0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min:
0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min:
0 Unk:

WEATHER: KHUT 022052Z VRB06KT 10SM CLR 32/11 A3012

OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Other Operation: OTHER

[[email protected]]

>
> I would like to gently point out that in high density altitude situations
> you may need quite a bit more than 200' AGL to get back to the runway on an
> aero tow departure. 200 feet AGL is not a 'magic' number that assures a
> safe return to the runway.
>
..> Bill Daniels


Gently, why? This is exactly the point I was trying to make! I used
the example of the tow plane not climbing sufficiently for mechanical
reasons but density altitude does it just as well. I'm trying to get
people away from the thinking that once they have 200 ft they can
return to the airport. That kind of thinking drives me nuts only
slightly less then hooking up the cable without completing the
checklist. We still have people in our club operation who persist in
doing this even though they've been through safety reviews where
they've agreed it's not the best practice. Goes to show how stubborn
old habits are.

[[email protected]]

>
> This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.
>
> Bill Daniels

Is that ALWAYS true Bill? I have never been on a winch though have
quite a few car tows including reverse pully of various arrangments
and I was under the impression that there may be situations where
landing ahead is out though you are to low and/or slow to turn back
safely. I think I learned about his in Piggotts book actually which
was quite an eye opener after my classic American "hook up and floor
it what can go wrong" car tow introduction some years ago.
MM

[Ian]

On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> rope, the student passes the test.

Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which
worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue
had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made
for a nice quick turnaround.

Ian

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 17:45, wrote:
> > This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.

> Is that ALWAYS true Bill?

I think it's often true, and probably mostly true, but I don;t think
it's always the case. A winch launch power failure can leave you too
far down the runway to land straight ahead but too low to do much by
way of fancy manoevres.

Ian

[[email protected]]

On Sep 5, 11:55 am, Ian > wrote:
> On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> > not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> > ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> > As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> > pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> > pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> > Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> > rope, the student passes the test.
>
> Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which
> worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue
> had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made
> for a nice quick turnaround.
>
> Ian

Ian I think Bill is talking about Aerotow, thats certainly what matt
and I are talking about. the method you mention would be fine with me,
as long as the rope isnt connected to the towplane until im ready. I
envision that your example was using a grid to launch, in which case
everything is ready ahead of time it seems. at our club the glider is
pulled onto the runway, pilot gets in, tug pulls out while pilot is
doing his checklist, rope hooks up, wing goes up and off they go.

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.
>
I think this needs a little qualification. Where the winch is on the end
of the airfield I'm sure this is true, but when the winch is out in the
boonies it may not be the case.

I believe there are several clubs in Germany (and one, Jury Hill, in NZ)
with essentially just a landing area and the launch line at one side of
it. It seems to me that at these sites either a very low break or one
high enough to allow a fairly full circuit to be flown should present no
problems.

However, what about the middle region between 50 and 500 feet? On our
field (and yours at a guess) you can land ahead, do a 360 and land ahead
or fly an abbreviated circuit. Those options may well be absent with an
remotely placed winch.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bill Daniels]

"Ian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On 5 Sep, 17:45, wrote:
>> > This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always
>> > available.
>
>> Is that ALWAYS true Bill?
>
> I think it's often true, and probably mostly true, but I don;t think
> it's always the case. A winch launch power failure can leave you too
> far down the runway to land straight ahead but too low to do much by
> way of fancy manoevres.
>
> Ian

Well, using absolutes is 'usually' a bad idea. Let me say that a cable
break on a winch launch is likely to provide more options to land on the
runway than may be the case with aero tow. In fact, I can't imagine a
situation where I couldn't return to the runway unless the runway is
extremely short and narrow, in which case it isn't a suitable winch site in
the first place.

Normally, by the time you are so high that a straight ahead landing is
impossible, you will have enough altitude to circle back for an into the
wind landing.

If the winch suffers a slow power failure that results in a less than
expected climb angle, I'd suggest releasing early and landing ahead before
the available runway is used up. Even in this case, arriving over the winch
with as little as 200 feet AGL leaves you in the same position you would be
in with an aero tow rope break where a 180 degree turn and downwind landing
is possible.

Please note that I am not advocating 180 turns to a downwind landing on
winch launch since it would be extremely rare that such an option is
appropriate or even needed.

Bill Daniels

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 5, 11:33 am, wrote:
> On Sep 5, 11:55 am, Ian > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > > The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> > > not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> > > ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> > > As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> > > pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> > > pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> > > Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> > > rope, the student passes the test.
>
> > Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which
> > worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue
> > had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made
> > for a nice quick turnaround.
>
> > Ian
>
> Ian I think Bill is talking about Aerotow, thats certainly what matt
> and I are talking about. the method you mention would be fine with me,
> as long as the rope isnt connected to the towplane until im ready. I
> envision that your example was using a grid to launch, in which case
> everything is ready ahead of time it seems. at our club the glider is
> pulled onto the runway, pilot gets in, tug pulls out while pilot is
> doing his checklist, rope hooks up, wing goes up and off they go.

Ideally, in a club environment, the pilot(s) is/are in the ready, in
the glider, then pulled onto the runway leaving only canopy,
airbrakes, and hookup. Hurried staging or leaving many tasks to be
done on the runway is often how pilots depart with, straps unfastened,
canopy unlatched, airbrakes unlocked, tail dolly on, O2 off, and in
one case I know of, lap strap fastened around gear retract, and
another, lap strap fastened around rear rudder pedal. Too often,
pilots start putting on their chute when the tow plane is already on
down wind.

Of course, if you have the luxury of many runways, you can tie one up
with staged gliders. Cindy B had a great video about this at the
Region 12 Safety Seminar last spring, but I don't find it on the web
anywhere.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 5, 1:14 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 11:33 am, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 5, 11:55 am, Ian > wrote:
>
> > > On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > > > The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> > > > not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> > > > ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> > > > As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> > > > pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> > > > pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> > > > Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> > > > rope, the student passes the test.
>
> > > Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which
> > > worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue
> > > had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made
> > > for a nice quick turnaround.
>
> > > Ian
>
> > Ian I think Bill is talking about Aerotow, thats certainly what matt
> > and I are talking about. the method you mention would be fine with me,
> > as long as the rope isnt connected to the towplane until im ready. I
> > envision that your example was using a grid to launch, in which case
> > everything is ready ahead of time it seems. at our club the glider is
> > pulled onto the runway, pilot gets in, tug pulls out while pilot is
> > doing his checklist, rope hooks up, wing goes up and off they go.
>
> Ideally, in a club environment, the pilot(s) is/are in the ready, in
> the glider, then pulled onto the runway leaving only canopy,
> airbrakes, and hookup. Hurried staging or leaving many tasks to be
> done on the runway is often how pilots depart with, straps unfastened,
> canopy unlatched, airbrakes unlocked, tail dolly on, O2 off, and in
> one case I know of, lap strap fastened around gear retract, and
> another, lap strap fastened around rear rudder pedal. Too often,
> pilots start putting on their chute when the tow plane is already on
> down wind.
>
> Of course, if you have the luxury of many runways, you can tie one up
> with staged gliders. Cindy B had a great video about this at the
> Region 12 Safety Seminar last spring, but I don't find it on the web
> anywhere.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

that would be ideal frank. throw in years of relaxation on the
runways, meager ground crew if any, and then you have long waits on
the runway. Hurrying on anything with wings is a recipe for
disaster. We certainly dont teach our students to rush through the
checklist, but do it completely, and attempt to minimize time on
runway.

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 19:00, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Ian" > wrote in message

> > I think it's often true, and probably mostly true, but I don;t think
> > it's always the case. A winch launch power failure can leave you too
> > far down the runway to land straight ahead but too low to do much by
> > way of fancy manoevres.

> Well, using absolutes is 'usually' a bad idea. Let me say that a cable
> break on a winch launch is likely to provide more options to land on the
> runway than may be the case with aero tow. In fact, I can't imagine a
> situation where I couldn't return to the runway unless the runway is
> extremely short and narrow, in which case it isn't a suitable winch site in
> the first place.

I agree with you. In the places where I wouldn't return to the runway
it's because there is somewhere better under me first.

> If the winch suffers a slow power failure that results in a less than
> expected climb angle, I'd suggest releasing early and landing ahead before
> the available runway is used up.

Agreed again. It's just that a slow (as in gradual) power failure can
be a real bummer to detect, particularly if you get the odd few
seconds of full performance. "This is a bit slow ... oh that's
better ... now what's he playing at ... here we go ... oh, stuff
this ... <bing> ... whoops"

> Please note that I am not advocating 180 turns to a downwind landing on
> winch launch since it would be extremely rare that such an option is
> appropriate or even needed.

Banned at at least two clubs I have flown at, too.

Ian

[Ian]

On 5 Sep, 18:50, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> > This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.
>
> I think this needs a little qualification. Where the winch is on the end
> of the airfield I'm sure this is true, but when the winch is out in the
> boonies it may not be the case.
>
> I believe there are several clubs in Germany (and one, Jury Hill, in NZ)
> with essentially just a landing area and the launch line at one side of
> it. It seems to me that at these sites either a very low break or one
> high enough to allow a fairly full circuit to be flown should present no
> problems.

The east-west run at Falgunzeon is like that. It is landable, sort of,
between the launch point and winch, but the retrieve is a tractor job
and may take hours. I think I have only seen it used once ...
crosswinds are much nicer!

Ian

[Tony Verhulst]

wrote:

> "Tow failure below 200 ft lower the nose and land ahead, above 200
> lower the nose and land ahead or behind", is simple, brief and to the
> point.


Yes, I tell students that at 200 ft you can *think* about turning back
to the rwy. In addition to Matt's example of a partial power departure
puting you too far away to make the airport, also consider a departure
in a strong headwind where a 180 on a 200 ft rope break means that you
can't get the glider down before running out of airport (I've seen one
of those, btw).

Calling 200 ft is the minimum, IMHO, and my club teaches that. In
addition, I tell students that on all of my take offs, every few seconds
I say to myself "if the rope breaks now, I'll do <<fill in the blank>>".
That way when the rope breaks (above 200) the decision is already made.

I'm rather fond of pulling the rope on a student around 500 on a calm
day. The majority, by far, start an attempt at a down wind landing, when
the best option is really a more or less normal pattern - just keep the
downwind a bit closer in. I tell the student "look, in a 30:1 glider you
can fly a about 5.5 miles from 1000 feet(without a fudge factor). we're
at 500, and the departure end of the runway is less than one mile away".
And then we do the normal pattern and it's easy.

Tony V.


If you are at 300 when the tow fails you CAN turn around but
> you aren't pre-programmed to do so. You may have sufficient runway
> remaining ahead or have a nice pasture off to the side.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 5, 12:46 pm, wrote:
> On Sep 5, 1:14 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 5, 11:33 am, wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 5, 11:55 am, Ian > wrote:
>
> > > > On 4 Sep, 20:55, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > > > > The is related to the other thread on winch launch. I am a firm believer in
> > > > > not accepting an aerotow rope or a winch cable until the pilot is completely
> > > > > ready to fly. I teach my students the same.
>
> > > > > As a learning routine, I will brief the line person to interrupt the student
> > > > > pilot while he is doing the pre-flight checklist and agressively insist the
> > > > > pilot accept the rope RIGHT NOW. If the student asserts his Pilot in
> > > > > Command authority and tells the line person to back off until asked for the
> > > > > rope, the student passes the test.
>
> > > > Is that aerotow or winch? I have flown at a couple of sites which
> > > > worked n+1 ropes with n tugs, so the pilot at the head of the queue
> > > > had a rope on an ready to be hooked to the tug as it lined up. It made
> > > > for a nice quick turnaround.
>
> > > > Ian
>
> > > Ian I think Bill is talking about Aerotow, thats certainly what matt
> > > and I are talking about. the method you mention would be fine with me,
> > > as long as the rope isnt connected to the towplane until im ready. I
> > > envision that your example was using a grid to launch, in which case
> > > everything is ready ahead of time it seems. at our club the glider is
> > > pulled onto the runway, pilot gets in, tug pulls out while pilot is
> > > doing his checklist, rope hooks up, wing goes up and off they go.
>
> > Ideally, in a club environment, the pilot(s) is/are in the ready, in
> > the glider, then pulled onto the runway leaving only canopy,
> > airbrakes, and hookup. Hurried staging or leaving many tasks to be
> > done on the runway is often how pilots depart with, straps unfastened,
> > canopy unlatched, airbrakes unlocked, tail dolly on, O2 off, and in
> > one case I know of, lap strap fastened around gear retract, and
> > another, lap strap fastened around rear rudder pedal. Too often,
> > pilots start putting on their chute when the tow plane is already on
> > down wind.
>
> > Of course, if you have the luxury of many runways, you can tie one up
> > with staged gliders. Cindy B had a great video about this at the
> > Region 12 Safety Seminar last spring, but I don't find it on the web
> > anywhere.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> that would be ideal frank. throw in years of relaxation on the
> runways, meager ground crew if any, and then you have long waits on
> the runway. Hurrying on anything with wings is a recipe for
> disaster. We certainly dont teach our students to rush through the
> checklist, but do it completely, and attempt to minimize time on
> runway.

That's how it was once, plenty of folks around making a day out it,
helping out. Without that mutual support, why grow a club?

[Dan G]

On Sep 5, 6:50 pm, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> > This is in contrast to winch launch where the runway is always available.
>
> I think this needs a little qualification. Where the winch is on the end
> of the airfield I'm sure this is true, but when the winch is out in the
> boonies it may not be the case.
>
> I believe there are several clubs in Germany (and one, Jury Hill, in NZ)
> with essentially just a landing area and the launch line at one side of
> it. It seems to me that at these sites either a very low break or one
> high enough to allow a fairly full circuit to be flown should present no
> problems.
>
> However, what about the middle region between 50 and 500 feet? On our
> field (and yours at a guess) you can land ahead, do a 360 and land ahead
> or fly an abbreviated circuit. Those options may well be absent with an
> remotely placed winch.

I'd question whether it's safe to operate from such a site. Certainly,
I'd never launch from one.

Such sites sound very much the rarity though - at any normal glider
site, a safe landing is perfectly possible from a winch launch failure
at any height.


Dan