Spin Recovery Training Before First Solo?

[[email protected]]

The thread "Any Spins Lately" made me wonder. If an instructor does
not teach spin recovery, is it worthwhile to find someone that teaches
spin recovery and take a few lessons before the first solo. If not,
then when would be a good time to do upset and spin recovery training.
Before my first cross country solo or after I get my certificate.

In my case my instructor is close by, but does not do spin recovery
training. I am quite happy with him and have no plans on switching.
However, there is an aerobatics instructor about 60 miles away that I
could use for spin training.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
> The thread "Any Spins Lately" made me wonder. If an instructor does
> not teach spin recovery, is it worthwhile to find someone that teaches
> spin recovery and take a few lessons before the first solo. If not,
> then when would be a good time to do upset and spin recovery training.
> Before my first cross country solo or after I get my certificate.
>
> In my case my instructor is close by, but does not do spin recovery
> training. I am quite happy with him and have no plans on switching.
> However, there is an aerobatics instructor about 60 miles away that I
> could use for spin training.
>
To completely understand what's involved in spin recovery it's best that
you understand stall. I always introduced a new student to spin recovery
during the stall phase just before solo. This was done as a simple one
turn entry from an accelerated stall at a time when the student had been
properly prepared before hand on what to expect.
What I would suggest you do if your CFI doesn't do spin recovery is to
go ahead and do your stall phase with your CFI, then when you feel you
have a good handle both theory wise and in the cockpit of your stall
work, make a trip up to the acro school and schedule an hour to do spin
recovery. It's an added step for you in your training but I believe it's
a necessary step.
Personally, I never soloed a student who hadn't had simple spin recovery.
You don't need to do prolonged spins unless you want to. Just a turn or
two and recovery is fine. The idea is to become familiar with spin
recovery, not to become completely proficient in all aspects of spins.
I would suggest however, that after gaining your certificate, you go
back to that school and take a few hours of serious aerobatics. Doing
this will make you a much better pilot, even if you never do acro again
after that.
Good luck. If I can be of any help to you, just holler! :-)
Dudley Henriques

--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

Sorry about the double post and getting it into the wrong group. I
meant for it to go into rec.aviation.student.


On Sep 4, 9:21 pm, wrote:
> The thread "Any Spins Lately" made me wonder. If an instructor does
> not teach spin recovery, is it worthwhile to find someone that teaches
> spin recovery and take a few lessons before the first solo. If not,
> then when would be a good time to do upset and spin recovery training.
> Before my first cross country solo or after I get my certificate.
>
> In my case my instructor is close by, but does not do spin recovery
> training. I am quite happy with him and have no plans on switching.
> However, there is an aerobatics instructor about 60 miles away that I
> could use for spin training.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Sep 4, 11:08 pm, wrote:
> Sorry about the double post and getting it into the wrong group. I
> meant for it to go into rec.aviation.student.
>
> On Sep 4, 9:21 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > The thread "Any Spins Lately" made me wonder. If an instructor does
> > not teach spin recovery, is it worthwhile to find someone that teaches
> > spin recovery and take a few lessons before the first solo. If not,
> > then when would be a good time to do upset and spin recovery training.
> > Before my first cross country solo or after I get my certificate.
>
> > In my case my instructor is close by, but does not do spin recovery
> > training. I am quite happy with him and have no plans on switching.
> > However, there is an aerobatics instructor about 60 miles away that I
> > could use for spin training.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Javaguy
Dudley gave you some good advice. Why not discuss it with your
instructor? I certainly wouldn't object if you were my student. Not
that it matters, but I found out about spins on my first solo back in
the 50's when I got sloppy on a power on (departure stall) and ended
up on my back entering a spin. Then I spent the better part of the
hour doing spins over and over before I came back for the obligatory 5
take offs and landings (remember, this was over 50 years ago). when I
got back in, my instructor asked where I'd been and what I'd done.
when I told him I did some spins, he just said "OK" and that was it.
That was in a J-5 Piper. Not a BFD then. It still isn't.
Cheers
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

> that it matters, but I found out about spins on my first solo back in
> the 50's when I got sloppy on a power on (departure stall) and ended
> up on my back entering a spin. Then I spent the better part of the

Maybe I misunderstood you, but are you saying ended up in a departure
stall and spin on your first solo? Are you sure you are alive? :)

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:33:05 -0000, wrote:

>
>> that it matters, but I found out about spins on my first solo back in
>> the 50's when I got sloppy on a power on (departure stall) and ended
>> up on my back entering a spin. Then I spent the better part of the
>
>Maybe I misunderstood you, but are you saying ended up in a departure
>stall and spin on your first solo? Are you sure you are alive? :)

There is one whale of a difference between spin entry, or incipient
spin and a developed spin.

Roger (K8RI)

[Tri-Pacer]

> Personally, I never soloed a student who hadn't had simple spin recovery.
> You don't need to do prolonged spins unless you want to. Just a turn or
> two and recovery is fine. The idea is to become familiar with spin

Got my first logbook out 2/28/1954 it states----
Stalls-P.Off-Coord.Rolls---- Demo. Spin----Forced Lndings.--- It was my
second lesson 2:15 total time at end of lesson. Signed by A.C. Berry CFI
1081564 What a prince of an instructor. I soloed 2 months later :-)

I find numerous other log entries mentioning spins in this first log, but
nothing later on.

Perhaps I need some refresher training. <grin>

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Tri-Pacer wrote:
>> Personally, I never soloed a student who hadn't had simple spin recovery.
>> You don't need to do prolonged spins unless you want to. Just a turn or
>> two and recovery is fine. The idea is to become familiar with spin
>
> Got my first logbook out 2/28/1954 it states----
> Stalls-P.Off-Coord.Rolls---- Demo. Spin----Forced Lndings.--- It was my
> second lesson 2:15 total time at end of lesson. Signed by A.C. Berry CFI
> 1081564 What a prince of an instructor. I soloed 2 months later :-)
>
> I find numerous other log entries mentioning spins in this first log, but
> nothing later on.
>
> Perhaps I need some refresher training. <grin>
>
> Cheers:
>
> Paul
> N1431A
> KPLU
>
>
Don't feel bad Paul. I've been retired for quite a while now. Just
imagine the refresher training I'D have to take :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

> There is one whale of a difference between spin entry, or incipient
> spin and a developed spin.
>

Yes, but on a first solo I would say it is a very serious event if you
got into a power on stall/incipient spin situation. A power on stall
on a first solo where you just do touch and goes means that it
probably happened during takeoff close to the ground. Was just
wondering how such a serious situation came about with no
consequences.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Sep 6, 12:52 pm, wrote:
> > There is one whale of a difference between spin entry, or incipient
> > spin and a developed spin.
>
> Yes, but on a first solo I would say it is a very serious event if you
> got into a power on stall/incipient spin situation. A power on stall
> on a first solo where you just do touch and goes means that it
> probably happened during takeoff close to the ground. Was just
> wondering how such a serious situation came about with no
> consequences.

Girish
Yes you misunderstood what I was saying. On my first solo (in the
50's) my instructor told me to go practice some airwork, then return
for the take offs and landings. While I was practicing stalls is when
I got into my first spin. To that point I had not done any...simply
had read about them and followed the procedures. Then my curiosity got
the best of me and I continued to do a number of spins before I came
back in for my obligatory take off and landings. Seems like the
training was quite a bit different back then? I've continued to teach
stall/spin and highly encourage my students to get spin training no
matter where it is.
I'm heartened by some of the posts by older pilots who trained back
when I did and are still active. I first got my CFI in 1967 and have
been active ever since, and still am at 71 and do 70-80 hours a month
of dual flight instruction in both airplanes and helicopters.
Cheers
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

Ok, I guess things were a bit different back then at the very least.
Even after about 150 hrs, I do not have the nerve to do spins on my
own because I do not understand them well enough. I am comfortable
with stalls and unusual attitude recoveries of the kind that are
tested on the PPL test but have never done spins with an instructor. I
once had a guy with aerobatics experience do 2 spins for me just for
fun but at the time I was too new to understand what was going on.
In any case I was not doubting your experience and qualifications,
just wondering from my perspective. I had a completely uneventful
first solo thankfully,



> Girish
> Yes you misunderstood what I was saying. On my first solo (in the
> 50's) my instructor told me to go practice some airwork, then return
> for the take offs and landings. While I was practicing stalls is when
> I got into my first spin. To that point I had not done any...simply
> had read about them and followed the procedures. Then my curiosity got
> the best of me and I continued to do a number of spins before I came
> back in for my obligatory take off and landings. Seems like the
> training was quite a bit different back then? I've continued to teach
> stall/spin and highly encourage my students to get spin training no
> matter where it is.
> I'm heartened by some of the posts by older pilots who trained back
> when I did and are still active. I first got my CFI in 1967 and have
> been active ever since, and still am at 71 and do 70-80 hours a month
> of dual flight instruction in both airplanes and helicopters.
> Cheers
> Ol S&B

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:

> Even after about 150 hrs, I do not have the nerve to do spins on my
> own because I do not understand them well enough. I am comfortable
> with stalls and unusual attitude recoveries of the kind that are
> tested on the PPL test but have never done spins with an instructor.

If you are "comfortable" with stalls and unusual attitudes and don't
understand spins, I would suggest that you get some spin training or at
least a better understanding of spins immediately.
Feeling "comfortable" with unusual attitudes without a corresponding
knowledge of spins can be an extremely dangerous combination.
I would suggest strongly that you immediately begin feeling less
"comfortable" with unusual attitudes, or get some basic spin recovery
training as soon as possible. These two items are inseparable.

--
Dudley Henriques

[george]

On Sep 8, 2:56 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Even after about 150 hrs, I do not have the nerve to do spins on my
> > own because I do not understand them well enough. I am comfortable
> > with stalls and unusual attitude recoveries of the kind that are
> > tested on the PPL test but have never done spins with an instructor.
>
> If you are "comfortable" with stalls and unusual attitudes and don't
> understand spins, I would suggest that you get some spin training or at
> least a better understanding of spins immediately.
> Feeling "comfortable" with unusual attitudes without a corresponding
> knowledge of spins can be an extremely dangerous combination.
> I would suggest strongly that you immediately begin feeling less
> "comfortable" with unusual attitudes, or get some basic spin recovery
> training as soon as possible. These two items are inseparable.
>
Especially when over recovering from a spin and initiating another in
the opposite direction or at worst inverted...
Spin training should be mandatory so the pilot knows what to stay away
from

[[email protected]]

> > Even after about 150 hrs, I do not have the nerve to do spins on my
> > own because I do not understand them well enough. I am comfortable
> > with stalls and unusual attitude recoveries of the kind that are
> > tested on the PPL test but have never done spins with an instructor.
>
> If you are "comfortable" with stalls and unusual attitudes and don't
> understand spins, I would suggest that you get some spin training or at

I am comfortable with stalls and slow flight in any configuration for
the cessna 150 and comfortable with the unusual attitudes my
instructor taught me for the check-ride. Basically they were just two
kinds taught - one where we end up in a steep dive and another one
where we end up "on top" close to a stall. I was tested on both on the
checkride. Besides these I am sure there is a lot of other stuff I
have no idea about which is why I mentioned that I am "comfortable
with unusual attitude recoveries tested on the PPL test". Maybe these
aren't even considered unusual attitudes, I don't know. It wasn't
meant to mean that I feel comfortable if the airplane suddenly flipped
over for e.g. What kind of unusual attitude recoveries are usually
taught beyond the PPL?

> least a better understanding of spins immediately.
> Feeling "comfortable" with unusual attitudes without a corresponding
> knowledge of spins can be an extremely dangerous combination.
> I would suggest strongly that you immediately begin feeling less
> "comfortable" with unusual attitudes, or get some basic spin recovery
> training as soon as possible. These two items are inseparable.

I do understand what causes a spin and how we enter one but not the
general aerodynamics behind it and I have not done one with an
instructor yet, I plan to some time. With the general level of comfort
I have with stalls and slow flight, I don't have that much fear of
stalling inadvertently and spinning. Of course I could be naive in
thinking that but that's what I feel.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
>>> Even after about 150 hrs, I do not have the nerve to do spins on my
>>> own because I do not understand them well enough. I am comfortable
>>> with stalls and unusual attitude recoveries of the kind that are
>>> tested on the PPL test but have never done spins with an instructor.
>> If you are "comfortable" with stalls and unusual attitudes and don't
>> understand spins, I would suggest that you get some spin training or at
>
> I am comfortable with stalls and slow flight in any configuration for
> the cessna 150 and comfortable with the unusual attitudes my
> instructor taught me for the check-ride. Basically they were just two
> kinds taught - one where we end up in a steep dive and another one
> where we end up "on top" close to a stall. I was tested on both on the
> checkride. Besides these I am sure there is a lot of other stuff I
> have no idea about which is why I mentioned that I am "comfortable
> with unusual attitude recoveries tested on the PPL test". Maybe these
> aren't even considered unusual attitudes, I don't know. It wasn't
> meant to mean that I feel comfortable if the airplane suddenly flipped
> over for e.g. What kind of unusual attitude recoveries are usually
> taught beyond the PPL?
>
>> least a better understanding of spins immediately.
>> Feeling "comfortable" with unusual attitudes without a corresponding
>> knowledge of spins can be an extremely dangerous combination.
>> I would suggest strongly that you immediately begin feeling less
>> "comfortable" with unusual attitudes, or get some basic spin recovery
>> training as soon as possible. These two items are inseparable.
>
> I do understand what causes a spin and how we enter one but not the
> general aerodynamics behind it and I have not done one with an
> instructor yet, I plan to some time. With the general level of comfort
> I have with stalls and slow flight, I don't have that much fear of
> stalling inadvertently and spinning. Of course I could be naive in
> thinking that but that's what I feel.
>
Just two things;
By all means seek out and find some basic training in spin recovery at a
competent source for that training. An hour or so should bring you up to
speed and at the same time give you a lot more confidence in your own
abilities in and around the left side of the flight envelope.
The second thing is simply my message using your post as a segue to all
student pilots reading these threads. It is not aimed directly at you
but rather as a general comment based on the general comfort mindset
concerning unusual attitudes
Discussing unusual attitude recovery, it's not the best approach to
think of this realm of flight in specifics such as feeling comfortable
with this attitude or that attitude as they relate to the PPL flight
test. Being comfortable around unusual attitudes involves a much deeper
understanding than this.
Generally speaking, when you can fly consistently close to the left edge
of the envelope and both anticipate what the airplane will be doing 3
seconds from "now", then either stop or allow whatever that is from
happening as the mood suits you, and recover whatever you allow to
happen with the airplane under your complete control throughout this
procedure, you are THEN allowed to feel you have BEGUN to understand
unusual attitude to the extent where you may BEGIN the process of
feeling "comfortable" while in this area of flight.
I hope I have made this point clear enough.
Remember the Henriques basic rule of flying 101 :-)
The moment you begin to feel "comfortable" while flying an airplane,
note what you are doing at that instant and practice it for awhile :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

> Generally speaking, when you can fly consistently close to the left edge
> of the envelope and both anticipate what the airplane will be doing 3
> seconds from "now", then either stop or allow whatever that is from
> happening as the mood suits you, and recover whatever you allow to
> happen with the airplane under your complete control throughout this
> procedure, you are THEN allowed to feel you have BEGUN to understand
> unusual attitude to the extent where you may BEGIN the process of
> feeling "comfortable" while in this area of flight.

I didn't quite get the general connection between slow flight and
unusual attitudes here. Obviously learning to fly on the back side of
the power curve is important to understanding stalls and spin entries
but I thought unusual attitudes can be on either side of the power
curve. No doubt high power slow flight with a pronounced nose high
situation is an unusual attitude scenario but I thought it was one of
many. In general I associate unusual attitudes with things like how to
recover from a situation where the airplane has flipped over in
turbulence for example. In general I have never been taught to
consider that only high angle of attack scenarios can be unusual
attitude scenarios.


> I hope I have made this point clear enough.
> Remember the Henriques basic rule of flying 101 :-)
> The moment you begin to feel "comfortable" while flying an airplane,
> note what you are doing at that instant and practice it for awhile :-))

I agree, I think the Killing Zone book makes this point too. Probably
one of the reasons why the killing zone only begins at 70 hrs or so,
when people start to feel complacent about their abilities.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

wrote:
>> Generally speaking, when you can fly consistently close to the left edge
>> of the envelope and both anticipate what the airplane will be doing 3
>> seconds from "now", then either stop or allow whatever that is from
>> happening as the mood suits you, and recover whatever you allow to
>> happen with the airplane under your complete control throughout this
>> procedure, you are THEN allowed to feel you have BEGUN to understand
>> unusual attitude to the extent where you may BEGIN the process of
>> feeling "comfortable" while in this area of flight.
>
> I didn't quite get the general connection between slow flight and
> unusual attitudes here. Obviously learning to fly on the back side of
> the power curve is important to understanding stalls and spin entries
> but I thought unusual attitudes can be on either side of the power
> curve.

Flight on or near the left side of the envelope as used by a good
unusual attitudes instructor is simply an exercise to make you more
familiar and more competent and confident than ever before whiule
operating in this delicate area. Unusual attitude entered from the left
side of the envelope is by no means the only entry area for an unusual
attitude.
The aircraft you choose for your training and the experience of the
instructor giving you the training will determine the depth and extent
of the unusual attitude entries and recoveries attempted.
For this reason I suggest this training be received from a qualified
aerobatic instructor and in an aircraft certificated for aerobatic use.
The "training" you get in unusual attitude recovery for your PPL is
extremely basic in nature and usually (hopefully anyway :-) performed
within normal or utility category parameters.
Flying an airplane certified for acro allows you a much deeper envelope
from which to operate when dealing with unusual attitude recovery.
Also, it is possible to delve much deeper into the spin scenario with a
proper aircraft for that job.
To answer your question; unusual attitudes can be entered from any
flight attitude and a wide airspeed range.




No doubt high power slow flight with a pronounced nose high
> situation is an unusual attitude scenario but I thought it was one of
> many.

You are correct. It is one of many, however, it is teaching you to fly
in this area well beyond the proficiency required for your PPL that will
allow you to obtain a confidence level well beyond the average PPL
certificated pilot, and that is one of the goals we seek in teaching
unusual attitudes. Being able to recover from unusual attitudes is only
part of the training goal. Building your confidence to a much higher
level than you had before the training is also a prime goal.


In general I associate unusual attitudes with things like how to
> recover from a situation where the airplane has flipped over in
> turbulence for example. In general I have never been taught to
> consider that only high angle of attack scenarios can be unusual
> attitude scenarios.

See above please.
>
>
>> I hope I have made this point clear enough.
>> Remember the Henriques basic rule of flying 101 :-)
>> The moment you begin to feel "comfortable" while flying an airplane,
>> note what you are doing at that instant and practice it for awhile :-))
>
> I agree, I think the Killing Zone book makes this point too. Probably
> one of the reasons why the killing zone only begins at 70 hrs or so,
> when people start to feel complacent about their abilities.



Complacency and over confidence can kill you in an airplane. On the
other side of this equation, lack of confidence can ALSO kill you in an
airplane. Good pilots know EXACTLY where this line is drawn, and NEVER
allow themselves to cross it.......NEVER!!!



--
Dudley Henriques