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Capt. Doug
August 27th 03, 06:02 AM
Well... It's that time of the year again. It's time for my annual
proficiency check. Last year I almost crashed. This year was no different.

My helper pilot and I ran through the routines while a check-airman sat in
the jumpseat observing us. We cured hot starts and hung starts. We didn't
forget to disconnect the ground power before pushback this time (Doh!!). We
successfully handled a highspeed rejected take-off. We did a low visibility
take-off (RVR of 500/500/500). Of course one of the engines caught fire and
failed right at rotation. We came back around for the ILS but had to execute
a single-engine missed approach and enter a holding pattern when the airport
didn't show up at decision altitude . The controller promised that the
weather had improved as we were holding but that only the NDB approach was
working because of power outages at the ATC facilities (the NDB is off the
field). I'm pretty good at NDB approaches because that's all I had in the
old days. We popped out of the clouds exactly on the extended runway
centerline and had a greaser landing.

After the engine was fixed, we took-off again. We encountered windshear at
400'AGL. I pulled the nose up to stick-shaker. The power was already set. We
don't use firewall thrust anymore to recover unless death is imminent. We
got through the windshear just fine. Then the check-airman told us that
there was a simulated medical emergency in the cabin. We declared a
simulated emergency and asked for vectors to the airport. ATC told us to
expect an ILS. Abeam the airport on downwind, I called for slats and flaps
to start slowing down for the appraoch. The slat/ flap handle was jammed. It
figures- everything goes wrong on checkrides! My helper pilot read through
the procedure as called for in the handbook. Our weight gave us a ref speed
of 190 knots. Max tire speed is 195. The wind was a direct crosswind. The
runway was longer than required. My helper turned off the Ground Proximity
Warning System because doing 190 knots on the ILS can give a sink rate of
over 1000 ft/min, which normally sets off the GPWS which then requires a
go-around. It all worked out and I had another greaser landing! After a
touch and go, we climbed up to 10,000'. At 10,000', I started the airwork
with steep turns. At 250 knots, a slight drop of the nose will have you
exceeding ATP practical test standards real quick. Then I did the stall
series. All that remained of the required manuevers for the checkride was to
land. Everything was going good. Then the check-airman asked if I had ever
rolled the airplane.

"S**t", I replied. "Watch this ya'll!" It was the prettiest roll you've ever
seen. I lost 40', which isn't bad when you consider that the plane is 147'
long. The check-airman was smiling. His coffee didn't spill. He was
impressed. My helper pilot was pale white. Too bad- he was a pretty good
helper pilot. He looked rather disgruntled now. Guess I'm going on another
helper pilot's no-fly list. So what? Screw him! Then the check-airman asked
if I had ever looped the airplane.

Well, I hadn't, but if he'd talk me through it, I'd give it a try. There was
a strange odor coming from the area of the helper pilot. He kept his mouth
shut. He may have been in shock but I didn't care as long as he kept his
mouth shut. Then I said, "Watch this ya'll!"

I pushed the power up to within a knot of redline. I pulled back gently to
the aft stop of the yoke. The nose went up and up. I had never seen that
much blue on the artificial horizon before. Also, I had never seen the
airspeed bleed off so fast. I expressed concern but the check-airman said it
would work. As the nose went 5 degrees past vertical, the airspeed bled down
to 60 knots. The strange odor was coming from my seat now. I pulled the yoke
as hard as I could. I firewalled the engines. Being seriously concerned for
our safety, I gave the obligatory 'Oh S**t' for the CVR. Those must have
been the majic words because the nose fell through the horizon and the plane
did a half snap-roll to end up right-side up. Then I became acutely aware th
at I was about to die.

The plane was right side up, but the nose was pointing 80 degrees down. I
pulled the power back to idle. I pulled the speed brake lever all the way
out. I pulled on the yoke as much as I dared. The airspeed still blew
through redline. The overspeed warning went off. I pulled back on the yoke
as hard as I dared. I had to raise the nose to slow down, but I didn't want
to rip the wings off either. Transport category is only good for 2.5 Gs. My
mind was working furiously to save my butt. I even remembered to extend the
landing lights for more drag. The VSI was still pegged at 6000' fpm, but it
looked like we might just recover. I started to smile.

Then the nose started dropping again. Pulling back on the yoke didn't do
anything, except set off the stick-shaker which indicates a stall, a stall
at 100 knots over red-line. I'd put a little back-pressure on the yoke and
the stick-shaker would shake. I'd release some back-pressure and the shaker
would stop. After 4 tries, my smile went away. My adrenelin soaked brain
realized that death was imminent. We had encountered mach tuck. The
stick-shaker told me that we were in the coffin corner. We were along for
the ride at that point, a short ride. I wasn't smiling. With nothing left to
lose, I dropped the landing gear. It made quite a lot of noise.

It sounded like the gear doors were now missing, but that was alright
because the airspeed was slowing down, The nose was starting to come up. I
was smiling again. We leveled off at 4000'. It feels good to know you are
going to survive. I saw the airport and asked for landing clearance. It
wasn't quite a greaser, but it felt better than most. Then the right main
gear collapsed. We lurched to the right and skidded to a stop at an obscene
bank angle. I ordered an emergency evacuation and ran the checklist.

Outside, the check-airman congratulated me. I had lived, and I had passed my
check-ride. We smoked 3 engines and destroyed a multi-million dollar
airplane, and I still passed my check-ride. What a great job!

D.

pac plyer
August 27th 03, 08:11 PM
You pulled it off. Bob Hoover and Hoot Gibson would be proud of your ass! :-)

pacplyer
(please come pick the gear doors up out of my yard when you get a chance.)

Capt. Doug
August 28th 03, 03:51 AM
>pac plyer wrote in message > You pulled it off. Bob Hoover and Hoot Gibson
would >be proud of your ass! :-)

Yeah, some day, I'd like to look Gibson in the eye witha real serious look
and ask him,
"What really happened? I've read your testimony, but what really happened?"

> (please come pick the gear doors up out of my yard when you get a chance.)

Make a yellow tag for them, and then sell them back to the airline. Oh, and
my apologies for the large chunks of blue ice. :-)

D.

Capt. Doug
August 28th 03, 03:51 AM
>Badwater Bill wrote in message > The half snap on the back side of the loop
was a >good idea

I wish I'd have thought of it. :-)
The ailerons were ineffective even with the spoilers assisting. So I kicked
hard rudder. At that slow airspeed, the rudder travel isn't limited. The
swept wing snapped faster than Sister Mary Holysmoke can hit your knuckles
with a ruler.

>Can you imagine making that recovery inverted?

This is something I've pondered. During mach tuck, the shock waves cause the
nose to pitch down despite the control inputs. If I went inverted during
recovery, wouldn't the inverted nose pitch up? Then the plane would
decelerate, the shockwaves would dissipate, and control would be regained.

D.

Capt. Doug
August 28th 03, 03:51 AM
>Barnyard BOb wrote in message > Next time you do the loop.....
> pull 2.5 g's IMMEDIATELY upon entry
> at redline and stay with it, if you didn't.

That's were I screwed up. The elevator isn't nearly as effective as the
horizontal stabilizer. I should have run full nose up trim in addition to
pulling back. Tyhen I'd have gone over the top before the airspeed
dissipated, I think. I'll have to wait for next year's checkride to find
out.

D.

Richard Lamb
August 28th 03, 07:07 AM
"Capt. Doug" wrote:
>
> >Barnyard BOb wrote in message > Next time you do the loop.....
> > pull 2.5 g's IMMEDIATELY upon entry
> > at redline and stay with it, if you didn't.
>
> That's were I screwed up. The elevator isn't nearly as effective as the
> horizontal stabilizer. I should have run full nose up trim in addition to
> pulling back. Tyhen I'd have gone over the top before the airspeed
> dissipated, I think. I'll have to wait for next year's checkride to find
> out.
>
> D.

Don't have a sim handy, Capt. Doug?
That's my favorite place to kill myself.


Trim trivia?

The Blue Angles fly those amazing routines with slight nose DOWN trim.
Why?

Richard Lamb
August 28th 03, 07:10 AM
"Capt. Doug" wrote:
>
> >Badwater Bill wrote in message > The half snap on the back side of the loop
> was a >good idea
>
> I wish I'd have thought of it. :-)
> The ailerons were ineffective even with the spoilers assisting. So I kicked
> hard rudder. At that slow airspeed, the rudder travel isn't limited. The
> swept wing snapped faster than Sister Mary Holysmoke can hit your knuckles
> with a ruler.
>
> >Can you imagine making that recovery inverted?
>
> This is something I've pondered. During mach tuck, the shock waves cause the
> nose to pitch down despite the control inputs. If I went inverted during
> recovery, wouldn't the inverted nose pitch up? Then the plane would
> decelerate, the shockwaves would dissipate, and control would be regained.
>
> D.

Sounds like it might work.
If the wings stay on...
(negative G limits?)

Badwater Bill
August 28th 03, 04:05 PM
>Don't have a sim handy, Capt. Doug?
>That's my favorite place to kill myself.
>
>
>Trim trivia?
>
>The Blue Angles fly those amazing routines with slight nose DOWN trim.
>Why?


Are you kidding? He did all that in the Sim.

BWB

Badwater Bill
August 28th 03, 04:08 PM
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:47 GMT, "Capt. Doug"
> wrote:

>>pac plyer wrote in message > You pulled it off. Bob Hoover and Hoot Gibson
>would >be proud of your ass! :-)
>
>Yeah, some day, I'd like to look Gibson in the eye witha real serious look
>and ask him,
>"What really happened? I've read your testimony, but what really happened?"

I did that once at a parter here in Las Vegas about 20 years ago. He
stuck to his story.

Hoot was flying cargo in South America at that time. He never won his
suit against TWA and never flew another TWA flight.

BWB


>
>> (please come pick the gear doors up out of my yard when you get a chance.)
>
>Make a yellow tag for them, and then sell them back to the airline. Oh, and
>my apologies for the large chunks of blue ice. :-)
>
>D.
>

Richard Lamb
August 28th 03, 05:21 PM
Badwater Bill wrote:
>
> >Don't have a sim handy, Capt. Doug?
> >That's my favorite place to kill myself.
> >
> >
> >Trim trivia?
> >
> >The Blue Angles fly those amazing routines with slight nose DOWN trim.
> >Why?
>
> Are you kidding? He did all that in the Sim.
>
> BWB

I meant to try the trim augmented loop...

Capt. Doug
August 29th 03, 02:39 AM
>Richard Lamb wrote in message > I meant to try the trim augmented loop...

I've died in the sim only once, maybe. We hit dirt in level flight and under
control, but with a 1500 fpm sink rate. It may have been survivable. I
figured out what the problem was but I took too long. If we were in a B-737
sim, I'd have instinctively de-powered the rudder hydraulics. We were in a
DC-9 sim.

And then there was that time I was backing up a Metroliner with reverse
thrust, and fell off the aircraft carrier. Fortunately, I can simulate
swimming.

D.

Roger Halstead
August 30th 03, 08:19 AM
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:51 GMT, "Capt. Doug"
> wrote:

>>Barnyard BOb wrote in message > Next time you do the loop.....
>> pull 2.5 g's IMMEDIATELY upon entry
>> at redline and stay with it, if you didn't.
>
>That's were I screwed up. The elevator isn't nearly as effective as the
>horizontal stabilizer. I should have run full nose up trim in addition to
>pulling back. Tyhen I'd have gone over the top before the airspeed
>dissipated, I think. I'll have to wait for next year's checkride to find
>out.

What are you guys flying loops in? In the G-III you enter at 335 mph
and 4.5 Gs on the pull up. If you push to 350 MPH you can do a
vertical 8, (one loop above the other with a half roll at the crossing
point) IF you keep it symetrical and don't make any mistakes.

Boy, but that sucker has vertical penetration.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>D.
>

Barnyard BOb --
August 30th 03, 11:24 AM
>>That's were I screwed up. The elevator isn't nearly as effective as the
>>horizontal stabilizer. I should have run full nose up trim in addition to
>>pulling back. Tyhen I'd have gone over the top before the airspeed
>>dissipated, I think. I'll have to wait for next year's checkride to find
>>out.
>
>What are you guys flying loops in? In the G-III you enter at 335 mph
>and 4.5 Gs on the pull up. If you push to 350 MPH you can do a
>vertical 8, (one loop above the other with a half roll at the crossing
>point) IF you keep it symetrical and don't make any mistakes.
>
>Boy, but that sucker has vertical penetration.
>
>Roger Halstead
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Geez, Roger.

Can't fault you for bragging on the G-III, but...
Your 350 mph bird is pretty doggy.

In this specific case....
Entering a loop at mach .8 is a piece of cake.
Vertical penetration is non issue.

We were discussing a DC-9 simulator. <---<<<

BTW --
Vertical penetration may not be a good thing....
if your pointed straight DOWN.


Barnyard BOb --

Warren & Nancy
August 30th 03, 03:55 PM
Badwater Bill wrote:

> So, 500 feet AGL is the recommended altitude for flying
> helicopters x-country. You're above the wires but low enough you can
> get that contraption on the ground quick. Flying that low and slow is
> always fun.

Flying the Mooney <500 feet was loads of fun too. ;-)))

Warren

Capt. Doug
August 31st 03, 07:27 AM
>Badwater Bill wrote in message How about it Doug. Are each one of
> your flights in that DC-9 different and challenging for various
> reasons?

I may not be the right person to ask this question. I've become jaded.
Dealing with adverse weather, low fuel, lengthy delays, a**hole colleagues,
and bitchy passengers in the heavily regulated airline life is mundane
compared to my exploits outside airline flying. It's a good job, but not
very challenging. I enjoy it because it's boring. It's low stress. It's a
time to relax. Some days are a bitch, but that's a rarity.

No. It's mostly boring. I did 3 legs today ending up at LaGuardia. They all
departed on time despite a squall line passing over New York. The most
exciting thing was a freaked out woman passenger. We were climbing out of
LaGuardia through some heavy precipitation on our second leg and turned on
the ignitors. The ignitors passed some rf into the PA making a beeping
sound. She just knew it was a bomb. We got a good laugh out of it.

One of the reasons I enjoy this group is because I don't have to pretend
here. I'm a cowboy. I've done things with airplanes that depended on my seat
of the pants instincts and some grace from the supreme being. I can't talk
about those things around my airline colleagues because they would be quick
to label me a cowboy. Then I'd be type-cast as being a loose cannon or
dangerous. That's not good for an airline pilot. Airline pilots must
conform. We must be boring. No stigma. Hanging with the knuckle dragging
porch monkeys in this group is refreshing. Heck, once in a while I learn
something too.

D.

Blueskies
August 31st 03, 02:19 PM
Could that have contributed to the accelerated jackscrew wear on the Alaska?

--
Dan D.



..
"Capt. Doug" > wrote in message
...
> >Barnyard BOb wrote in message > We were discussing a DC-9 simulator.
>
> Did I mention anything about a simulator? :-)
>
> It was an MD-82 simulator. I entered the loop at 335 knots and take-off
> power. The dang thing didn't come over the top like I thought it would and
> bled off airspeed much quicker than I expected. I suspect it's because the
> elevator is too small for aerobatics. Same thing for landing. If you get 5
> knots below ref speed and try to flare by pulling the yoke back, nothing
> happens except that the main wheels slam into the concrete rather firmly.
> The horizontal stab makes up most of the whale tail on the -80. The stab is
> much more powerful than the elevator. I flare with trim and get greasers
> about 70% of the time.
>
> D.
>
>

Barnyard BOb --
August 31st 03, 02:40 PM
>>Barnyard BOb wrote in message > We were discussing a DC-9 simulator.
>
>Did I mention anything about a simulator? :-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sorta. <g>
Here's what I had to go on.

Quoted excerpt....

"I've died in the sim only once, maybe. We hit dirt in level flight
and under control, but with a 1500 fpm sink rate. It may have been
survivable. I figured out what the problem was but I took too long. If
we were in a B-737 sim, I'd have instinctively de-powered the rudder
hydraulics. We were in a DC-9 sim." - D.


Barnyard BOb --

Corrie
September 1st 03, 09:30 AM
"Capt. Doug" > wrote in message >...

> MD-82 elevator is too small for aerobatics. Same thing for landing. If you get 5
> knots below ref speed and try to flare by pulling the yoke back, nothing
> happens except that the main wheels slam into the concrete rather firmly.

Ah, that explains that jaw-rattling, overhead-compartment-opening
landing I survived a while back. Either that or the pilot had just
got back from his Naval Reserve carrier quals.

C

Capt. Doug
September 1st 03, 04:04 PM
>Blueskies wrote in message > Could that have contributed to the accelerated
>jackscrew wear on the Alaska?

Not directly, but once the stab let go, it was all over because the elevator
can't overpower the stab. I believe the NTSB final report is out. It is
ingrained into us in ground school now that we try to fix a jammed stab only
once and then leave it alone.

If during take-off, the stab is set outside a narrow band, the elevator will
be overpowered. Pulling full back on the yoke won't rotate the nose or,
vice-versa, pushing pull forward on the yoke won't keep the nose from
rotating early, depending on which way the stab is set outside of the narrow
band. You can trim to correct the situation, but you may not have enough
time. It can ruin your day.

D.

Lady Pilot
September 3rd 03, 10:53 PM
(Badwater Bill) wrote in news:3f53a95a.871539343
@news.west.earthlink.net:

> Kind of interesting in a way, today I'm going IFR in a Cessna P-210 to
> Denver and back. I'll just sit there with the flight director on and
> listen to music. I'll pressurize to the maximum differential then
> raise the altitude when I get near Denver. That will be about my only
> task since nowadays, I simply file GPS direct and let the flight
> director take me there. The biggest problem I have is staying awake
> in airplanes like that.

I suppose you're going to bull**** us again that you own that P-210? No one
is buying that story any more, big boy.

LP

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