Slow Flight

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
speed?
I teach all my students to slow fly with the entire range of
configurations for the particular aircraft they are flying. Gear up/
down, flaps up/down/in-between. I want them to be comfortable flying
at the very edge of the stall speeds and spend a lot of time
maneuvering right on the edge of a stall "nibble". It does more for
pilot confidence and ability than anything else I can think of. They
learn proper control useage and how their particular aircraft responds
while in the low speed areas. Playing with different angles of bank
while at low speeds and flying with a modicum of accuracy does a lot
for proper control use.
If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
something similar?
In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
What are your thoughts?

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:03:45 -0700, Ol Shy & Bashful
> wrote:

>There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
>the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
>1000 hours of cruise speed flight.
>
>What are your thoughts?

I'm a member of your choir. <G>

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "Ol" == Ol Shy & Bashful > writes:

Ol> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow
Ol> flight at the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent
Ol> accidents than 1000 hours of cruise speed flight.
.. . .
Ol> What are your thoughts?

Can't agree. The single best thing I did with an airplane to improve
my confidence and safety was fly a cross-country to Oshkosh from
California with a more experienced friend, each in our own airplane.

But others will agree with you. The point is that there are several
areas of aviation and flight that are important, and different people
will have different needs in those areas. Your students are probably
proficient in slow flight, that's good. How well would they do with a
long cross country and handling weather issues?

There are only so many hours of training to give, and the reality is
that a fresh pilot just receiving their PP-ASEL doesn't know
much. Perhaps the best thing an instructor can do is see that their
students understand their ignorance but also understand how they can
use their new license to improve.

--
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with
potatoes.
Douglas Adams

[Shirl]

Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> What are your thoughts?

I think what you said makes complete sense.
But I always wonder how people define "comfortable"? I was trained the
way you described and have repeated the drill more regularly than some.
I can do it if asked or necessary, I understand it, and I know how my
airplane acts. But I don't *like* flying at that edge of the envelope.
Does that mean I'm "uncomfortable"?

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:49:11 -0700, Bob Fry >
wrote:
>
>Can't agree. The single best thing I did with an airplane to improve
>my confidence and safety was fly a cross-country to Oshkosh from
>California with a more experienced friend, each in our own airplane.

What about all those who get the same number of hours you flew on that
trip within 50 miles of home?

[Paul Riley]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
> the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
> 1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
> proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
> speed?
> I teach all my students to slow fly with the entire range of
> configurations for the particular aircraft they are flying. Gear up/
> down, flaps up/down/in-between. I want them to be comfortable flying
> at the very edge of the stall speeds and spend a lot of time
> maneuvering right on the edge of a stall "nibble". It does more for
> pilot confidence and ability than anything else I can think of. They
> learn proper control useage and how their particular aircraft responds
> while in the low speed areas. Playing with different angles of bank
> while at low speeds and flying with a modicum of accuracy does a lot
> for proper control use.
> If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
> spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
> or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
> something similar?
> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> What are your thoughts?
>

You sound just like my old instructor in FW aviation, back in Nov 1959!!!
Can't agree more. You are right on the money. You know, I think I spent more
time flying slow flight than I did regular flight with him. :-))))) Great
guy, I have nothing but respect for him.

Paul

[Vaughn Simon]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
> the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
> 1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
> proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
> speed?
>...
> If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
> spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
> or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
> something similar?

I am having a bit of trouble "connecting the dots" between the two above
paragraphs. Glider pilots spend a lot of time at the nibbling edge of a stall,
especially circling at high bank angles right at the edge of a stall. I don't
think any of my students ever left being uncomfortable in slow flight. That
said, I don't want any of my students to be "comfortable" in the pattern (except
for very short final) whilst anywhere near a stall.

> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> What are your thoughts?

I think that there is a time and a place for everything, and I there are
times when I would want my students to feel distinctly uncomfortable if they
were to find themselves slow.

Vaughn

[Andrew Sarangan]

Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
makes a pilot "mature" and safe.



On Sep 8, 3:49 pm, Bob Fry > wrote:
> >>>>> "Ol" == Ol Shy & Bashful > writes:
>
> Ol> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow
> Ol> flight at the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent
> Ol> accidents than 1000 hours of cruise speed flight.
> . . .
> Ol> What are your thoughts?
>
> Can't agree. The single best thing I did with an airplane to improve
> my confidence and safety was fly a cross-country to Oshkosh from
> California with a more experienced friend, each in our own airplane.
>
> But others will agree with you. The point is that there are several
> areas of aviation and flight that are important, and different people
> will have different needs in those areas. Your students are probably
> proficient in slow flight, that's good. How well would they do with a
> long cross country and handling weather issues?
>
> There are only so many hours of training to give, and the reality is
> that a fresh pilot just receiving their PP-ASEL doesn't know
> much. Perhaps the best thing an instructor can do is see that their
> students understand their ignorance but also understand how they can
> use their new license to improve.
>
> --
> It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with
> potatoes.
> Douglas Adams

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Shirl wrote:
> Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
>> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
>> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
>> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
>> What are your thoughts?
>
> I think what you said makes complete sense.
> But I always wonder how people define "comfortable"? I was trained the
> way you described and have repeated the drill more regularly than some.
> I can do it if asked or necessary, I understand it, and I know how my
> airplane acts. But I don't *like* flying at that edge of the envelope.
> Does that mean I'm "uncomfortable"?

No. You never really want to feel completely "comfortable" in the
airplane. You always want to be performing on that "edge" of awareness
when flying that keeps you ahead of the "comfortable" area and more into
the "alert" area. In other words, the correct mental attitude while
flying is one of being relaxed, but on guard and alert....just a bit on
edge as they say......to put it bluntly...SHARP!
Just an aside; beware of the fact that you "don't like" flying near the
edge of the envelope. The normal reaction should be more associated with
an "increased awareness and alertness" when flying in this area. It's ok
for the comfort level to go down as you enter this area, but it
shouldn't go so far down that you actually dislike flying on the left side.
I'd work on that and possibly change from a dislike to feeling just a
bit sharper in this area.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:03:45 -0700, Ol Shy & Bashful
> wrote:

>There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
>the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
>1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
>proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
>speed?

This brings up a question in my mind.
When you say slow flight at the edge of a stall I think of Minimum
Controllable Air Speed or MCA. Slow flight, to me, is considerably
more comfortable and a bit above the stall warning horn. I was taught
steep turns with the horn on all the way around. Of course I was
taught accelerated stalls out of steep turns as well <:-))

>I teach all my students to slow fly with the entire range of
>configurations for the particular aircraft they are flying. Gear up/
>down, flaps up/down/in-between. I want them to be comfortable flying
>at the very edge of the stall speeds and spend a lot of time
>maneuvering right on the edge of a stall "nibble". It does more for

I think that definition of slow flight and MCA depends on the
instructor(s) as around here a lot of them teach slow flight, whereas
as few still teach MCA.

>pilot confidence and ability than anything else I can think of. They
>learn proper control useage and how their particular aircraft responds
>while in the low speed areas. Playing with different angles of bank
>while at low speeds and flying with a modicum of accuracy does a lot
>for proper control use.
>If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
>spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
>or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
>something similar?
>In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
>speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
>will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
>What are your thoughts?

Amen!

A couple of thoughts or observations: I see a lot of pilots with quite
a few hours who still fly mechanically. IOW they never go outside the
original basics. These are the pilots who never learn to be flexible.
They are the ones you don't want to get behind (or have behind yo) in
the pattern at Oshkosh where the tower tells you what to do and when.
They are the ones who have a problem getting down when the wind
changes on final. If the wind changes and they find themselves high
on final it never occurs to them a slip would be appropriate to still
put them on the desired spot, or to apply just enough power to put
them on that spot instead of applying lots of power when they see they
are going to come up short.

With an engine failure they have to recognize what has happened and
think of each step. They rely on the stall warning horn and or light,
rather than feel in the controls. When I was in primary training the
flight envelop was by feel. Yes, we used the gages to get in the
neighborhood, but beyond that is was learning to feel what the plane
was doing. OTOH when I was in primary training a lot of things were
done differently than they are now.

As to inadvertent stalls, not all can be avoided no mater how well the
pilot is trained. I've had three inadvertent stalls. One was in level
flight at 5500. Two were on final due to wind shear that was well
beyond what had been forecast and I was carrying extra speed. Nothing
was bent in any of the events, nor did I need to change my shorts (or
count seat cushions).

And we all have to realize that on rare occasion mechanical parts fail
and nature does conspire to put us in a heap of hurt. In those cases
we have to use our training to minimize the damage if possible.

Roger (K8RI)

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan
> wrote:

>Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
>trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
>is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
>makes a pilot "mature" and safe.

I agree with that assessment to a point.

It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
were never going to be safe.

Roger (K8RI)

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 21:18:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
> wrote:

>Shirl wrote:
>> Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
>>> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
>>> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
>>> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
>>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>> I think what you said makes complete sense.
>> But I always wonder how people define "comfortable"? I was trained the
>> way you described and have repeated the drill more regularly than some.
>> I can do it if asked or necessary, I understand it, and I know how my
>> airplane acts. But I don't *like* flying at that edge of the envelope.
>> Does that mean I'm "uncomfortable"?
>
>No. You never really want to feel completely "comfortable" in the
>airplane. You always want to be performing on that "edge" of awareness
>when flying that keeps you ahead of the "comfortable" area and more into
>the "alert" area. In other words, the correct mental attitude while
>flying is one of being relaxed, but on guard and alert....just a bit on
>edge as they say......to put it bluntly...SHARP!
>Just an aside; beware of the fact that you "don't like" flying near the
>edge of the envelope. The normal reaction should be more associated with
>an "increased awareness and alertness" when flying in this area. It's ok
>for the comfort level to go down as you enter this area, but it
>shouldn't go so far down that you actually dislike flying on the left side.
>I'd work on that and possibly change from a dislike to feeling just a
>bit sharper in this area.

This is kinda,sorta, similar to ice skating and doing what are called
"back crossovers". You can built terrific speed, particularly coming
out of corners. You can build speed to the point of not just being
beyond your comfort zone, but on the edge of controllability. Repeated
skating in this area not only expands the comfort zone, but the speed
at which positive control can be maintained. With proper training and
practice it doesn't take long to fine yourself skating at a speed that
is now not only comfortable, but faster than that at which you could
have maintained control only a few weeks earlier. Now add a couple
dozen other skaters on the same ice that you need to avoid. Like
flying, if you avoid this area you will never really come near
reaching the limits of your abilities or developing them to
perfection.

Like flying, you learn not to get complacent or you are going to get
hurt. After all, you are skating on "blades" and those blades can cut
like a knife.

In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits. In flying
you can get killed.

[Shirl]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
> In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
> In flying you can get killed.

Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
saying, but I also believe it's possible to be competent, "sharp", on
guard, and alert and also not really "like" being there. IOW, I don't
believe a person has to say he/she *likes* being there in order to know
the limits or be competent at the edge of the envelope.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 6:03 am, Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
> the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
> 1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
> proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
> speed?
> I teach all my students to slow fly with the entire range of
> configurations for the particular aircraft they are flying. Gear up/
> down, flaps up/down/in-between. I want them to be comfortable flying
> at the very edge of the stall speeds and spend a lot of time
> maneuvering right on the edge of a stall "nibble". It does more for
> pilot confidence and ability than anything else I can think of. They
> learn proper control useage and how their particular aircraft responds
> while in the low speed areas. Playing with different angles of bank
> while at low speeds and flying with a modicum of accuracy does a lot
> for proper control use.
> If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
> spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
> or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
> something similar?
> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> What are your thoughts?

I think exposure to stalls is appropriate and you can get enough
practice keeping the wings level (with rudder) on the approach to the
stall during stall training. BUT why would you ever want to _fly_ so
close to stall? It's really dangerous to be just 10k above stall speed
in any part of the circuit and that speed is not good for anything in
real flight (terrible lift:drag and poor control response)... So
what's the point? Do you not worry about wind gusts/lulls at that
speed? I'd put this general idea in the fuel cut pull at takeoff bin
Perhaps a pilot who likes to fly at 10k above stall is an accident
waiting to happen? I don't see how extensive training at such low
speed can help you fly safely -quite the reverse. My natural mental
ASI is set to 65k!

An analogy would be the utility in driving a car on flat tyres... Yes
it can be controlled but watch out (you _will_ eventually spin out)!

My 2c

Cheers MC

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Shirl wrote:
> "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>> In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
>> In flying you can get killed.
>
> Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
> saying, but I also believe it's possible to be competent, "sharp", on
> guard, and alert and also not really "like" being there. IOW, I don't
> believe a person has to say he/she *likes* being there in order to know
> the limits or be competent at the edge of the envelope.

Unbelievable! I was a Delaware Maryland State and Eastern Regional Speed
Skating Champion (RSROA 1955) Skated Free Style and Dance as well :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Kevin Clarke]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> Shirl wrote:
>> Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
>>> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
>>> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
>>> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
>>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>> I think what you said makes complete sense.
>> But I always wonder how people define "comfortable"? I was trained
>> the way you described and have repeated the drill more regularly than
>> some. I can do it if asked or necessary, I understand it, and I know
>> how my airplane acts. But I don't *like* flying at that edge of the
>> envelope. Does that mean I'm "uncomfortable"?
>
> No. You never really want to feel completely "comfortable" in the
> airplane. You always want to be performing on that "edge" of awareness
> when flying that keeps you ahead of the "comfortable" area and more
> into the "alert" area. In other words, the correct mental attitude
> while flying is one of being relaxed, but on guard and alert....just a
> bit on edge as they say......to put it bluntly...SHARP!

Wow, is that well put! That explains it. I've always wondered why it was
never an intellectually and emotionally disconnected event like driving
a car. You have to be ON it. The whole time. So I'm supposed to feel
that way when I'm flying? Cool, I thought there was something wrong that
I had to overcome. Thanks Dudley.

Thread related content...Mastering slow flight is critical to
understanding the envelope your plane operates in. Just like no flap
landings, full flap landings, stalls, engine out procedures etc.
Personally based on my training experience, "mastering" slow flight was
one of the most difficult, particularly during my instrument training.
The sloppiness/looseness of the aircraft coupled the higher degree of
precision required to fly correctly within PTS was a great training
exercise.

KC

[Shirl]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
> >> In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
> >> In flying you can get killed.

Shirl:
> > Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
> > saying, [snip]

Dudley Henriques:
> Unbelievable! I was a Delaware Maryland State and Eastern Regional Speed
> Skating Champion (RSROA 1955) Skated Free Style and Dance as well :-))

Pretty cool!
I remember joking about the similarities between skating and flying with
my CFIG. One of the ways, thinking about how, with any of the big jumps
-- axel or any of the doubles or better -- you better be prepared to go
for it 100% or you're probably going to get hurt...that is, you can't
"kinda" do it and get away with it more than a couple of times. Not to
mention all the jokes about landings and spins!

I was in the SF Bay Area. We had a group of speed skaters that rented
our rink Sunday nights. Of course, some of us were there most Sunday
nights watching -- THAT was cool but surely seemed *a lot* more
dangerous than anything we did on figure skates (maybe it was just fear
of the unknown!).
;-)

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:56:14 -0000, wrote:

> BUT why would you ever want to _fly_ so
>close to stall?

You actually don't. Flying the airplane over the entire performance
range allows you to have "been there before" in case you NEED to
recover from or fly in those ranges.

>It's really dangerous to be just 10k above stall speed
>in any part of the circuit

It can be, so this is practiced at altitude, not in the traffic
pattern.

> So
>what's the point? Do you not worry about wind gusts/lulls at that
>speed?

That's one of the goals. <G>

You're mushing the plane along, moving the controls to full
deflection, and the wind makes the plane fly in different manners as
the wind changes. My instructor had me flying square patterns and
figure 8's near stall speed in Warriors and my Sundowner. If the
plane stalls, and sometimes it will, you're the pilot and you recover
it!

Sometimes, you leave slow flight by reducing the power and purposely
stalling. Other times, you recover by going full power and gradually
cleaning up the airplane, (Hint - think "go around at the last
moment")

>I'd put this general idea in the fuel cut pull at takeoff bin

THAT'S dangerous, and really dumb. Personally, I put proficiency over
the entire flight envelope in the bin with upset recovery training in
a properly certified aerobatic craft.

>Perhaps a pilot who likes to fly at 10k above stall is an accident
>waiting to happen?

I had an instructor that not only had me do LOTS of slow flight
(including under the hood), but he also had me do emergency spiral
decents near the top of the yellow arc, during PP training. Both are
actually in the Jeppesen PP-ASEL syllabus. He instructs because he
likes to teach, not to build time for another job.

During instrument training, the same guy had me doing tons of slow
flight under the hood, but added a full and imminent stall series with
no external reference. We also did instrument cross countries and
holding patterns in actual IFR.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan
>
> > wrote:
> >Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
> >trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
> >is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
> >makes a pilot "mature" and safe.
>
> I agree with that assessment to a point.
>
> It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
> and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
> seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
> were never going to be safe.
>
> Roger (K8RI)

Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.

Dan

[[email protected]]

> If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
> spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
> or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
> something similar?
> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> What are your thoughts?

I have a slightly different take on this. I am not an instructor but I
feel that slow flight is very easy to practice or teach compared to
some of the other areas of flight because it requires nothing more
than an airplane and an instructor. However some of the other aspects
of flying related to weather are the most difficult to learn or teach
(in my opinion). Learning to avoid rotors or learning to judge the
airplane's limits on a hot day at a higher elevation could very well
be more challenging because some of those aspects of flying involve
learning to avoid something which is harder to teach. Truth be told, I
have often wondered what the fuss is all about when it comes to slow
flight. After enough practice, its a piece of cake. In the last few
hrs leading to my PPL, I had no trouble flying very high nose up with
the stall horn blaring and the power up very high and not losing an
inch of altitude. The C-150 actually showed something like 35 knots
IAS if I remember right (although the TAS is much higher). My
instructor actually thought I was doing well enough that he didn't
want to spend time on slow flight on the day before the checkride
because he thought I was better off doing turns around a point which I
had trouble with. On the checkride, slow flight was something I was
eagerly waiting for to impress the DE.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 12:19 pm, wrote:

> In the last few
> hrs leading to my PPL, I had no trouble flying very high nose up with
> the stall horn blaring and the power up very high and not losing an
> inch of altitude.

Did you pull the nose up a little more to get the stall in that
situation? That's where it can get interesting. Departure stall. A 150
does it real well. Better be prepared for spin recovery.

Dan

[[email protected]]

>
> Did you pull the nose up a little more to get the stall in that
> situation? That's where it can get interesting. Departure stall. A 150
> does it real well. Better be prepared for spin recovery.

Yes, as part of stall practice I did a few different types including
the departure stall and the approach to landing stall which I found to
be more instructive because the nose is pointed down or level with the
horizon when it happens.But on many occasions the exercise was just to
fly at minimum controllable airspeed and turn using very shallow banks
which I find to be just as instructive as doing stalls.
I don't think of stalls as being difficult or dangerous as I once used
to when I first started training.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 5:24 am, Kevin Clarke > wrote:
> Wow, is that well put! That explains it. I've always wondered why it was
> never an intellectually and emotionally disconnected event like driving
> a car. You have to be ON it. The whole time. So I'm supposed to feel
> that way when I'm flying? Cool, I thought there was something wrong that
> I had to overcome. Thanks Dudley.


Right, except that you shouldn't lose that level of concentration
while
driving. Driving is usually less demanding than flying, but
either one can kill you very quickly if you don't maintain alertness.
When you're cruising on the highway, one bad move by one of your
fellow drivers can VERY quickly make things go very bad.

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:24:20 -0700, wrote:

> Did you pull the nose up a little more to get the stall in that
>situation? That's where it can get interesting. Departure stall. A 150
>does it real well. Better be prepared for spin recovery.

Seen a Private Pilot PTS lately? As interesting as it is, shouldn't
a pilot be able to fly to at least PTS (the minimum) standards?

"C. TASK: POWER-ON STALLS (ASEL and ASES)

NOTE: In some high performance airplanes, the power setting may have
to
be reduced below the practical test standards guideline power setting
to
prevent excessively high pitch attitudes (greater than 30° nose up).

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.

Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-on stalls.
2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no
lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL.
3. Establishes the takeoff or departure configuration. Sets power to
no
less than 65 percent available power.
4. Transitions smoothly from the takeoff or departure attitude to the
pitch attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; maintains
a
specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°, in turning flight,
while inducing the stall.
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power as
appropriate, and leveling the wings to return to a straight-and-level
flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the
airplane.
7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the landing
gear if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established.
8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction;
returns
to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner."

The whole shebag is here:
<http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-14A.pdf>

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Shirl wrote:
> "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>>>> In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
>>>> In flying you can get killed.
>
> Shirl:
>>> Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
>>> saying, [snip]
>
> Dudley Henriques:
>> Unbelievable! I was a Delaware Maryland State and Eastern Regional Speed
>> Skating Champion (RSROA 1955) Skated Free Style and Dance as well :-))
>
> Pretty cool!
> I remember joking about the similarities between skating and flying with
> my CFIG. One of the ways, thinking about how, with any of the big jumps
> -- axel or any of the doubles or better -- you better be prepared to go
> for it 100% or you're probably going to get hurt...that is, you can't
> "kinda" do it and get away with it more than a couple of times. Not to
> mention all the jokes about landings and spins!
>
> I was in the SF Bay Area. We had a group of speed skaters that rented
> our rink Sunday nights. Of course, some of us were there most Sunday
> nights watching -- THAT was cool but surely seemed *a lot* more
> dangerous than anything we did on figure skates (maybe it was just fear
> of the unknown!).
> ;-)
That's funny. Roger and I have been friends for years and I never knew
he was into skating. All 3 of us being involved in some way is interesting.
Roger's analogy using skating is fairly accurate. I've used it myself on
occasion with students through the years.
As an aside, our roller speed skating was almost like your short track
racing only slower :-)
I'm wondering since you were into figure skating whether or not you ever
ran into Elvin Griffin? Elvin and I grew up together and actually
competed against each other in speed skating when we were boys. I was a
bit faster than Elvin, but never his match in dance or free style. He
went pro and taught over in new Jersey training a few champions in the
process.
Just a shot. Thought you might have run into him in your travels. He
died last year unfortunately. Skating lost a fine pro and I lost a
boyhood friend.
Anyway, about the Axel and 100%; you're exactly right. I always
considered all jumps, especially doubles (Axels are of course a 3
revolution jump for the double) to be a conditioned memory process. Your
mind equates the rotation against the time and throws the signal at you
to break the rotation at the exact instant required for the landing.
This is why you need constant practice, so the mind doesn't "forget"
this timing.
Some aerobatics require the same timing sense; multiple snaps, the
gyroscopic maneuvers, spins especially.
It's interesting how one thing can be used to profile another in flying.
:-)


--
Dudley Henriques

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Sep 9, 10:57 am, wrote:
> On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan
>
> > > wrote:
> > >Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
> > >trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
> > >is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
> > >makes a pilot "mature" and safe.
>
> > I agree with that assessment to a point.
>
> > It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
> > and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
> > seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
> > were never going to be safe.
>
> > Roger (K8RI)
>
> Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
> known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
> much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
> Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
> present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
> more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
> There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
> these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
> dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
> regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.
>
> Dan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I was not aware that there was a psychological test for this. Can you
give pointers to where I can get more details?

[Shirl]

Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> I'm wondering since you were into figure skating whether or not you ever
> ran into Elvin Griffin? Elvin and I grew up together and actually
> competed against each other in speed skating when we were boys. I was a
> bit faster than Elvin, but never his match in dance or free style. He
> went pro and taught over in new Jersey training a few champions in the
> process.

No, can't say I remember ever running into Elvin Griffin. Several great
skaters came out of our rinks in the Bay Area -- Kristi Yamaguchi, Brian
Boitano, Rudy Galindo, Debi Thomas. But to be honest, I was more into
the artistic side of it than the competitive side, though it was
admittedly exciting to be behind-the-scenes during that time.

> Anyway, about the Axel and 100%; you're exactly right. I always
> considered all jumps, especially doubles (Axels are of course a 3
> revolution jump for the double) to be a conditioned memory process. Your
> mind equates the rotation against the time and throws the signal at you
> to break the rotation at the exact instant required for the landing.
> This is why you need constant practice, so the mind doesn't "forget"
> this timing.
> Some aerobatics require the same timing sense; multiple snaps, the
> gyroscopic maneuvers, spins especially.
> It's interesting how one thing can be used to profile another in flying.
> :-)

That's absolutely true -- we too have discussed the parallels with
flying and skating. Early on, when learning to fly, my CFIG said he
thought I'd do well because athletes have that understanding about
"timing". Ditto for having to do it often to stay proficient, and how
that "timing sense", learned by and programmed into your brain and body,
is the first thing to go when you don't train often enough.

I've also seen a parallel with the attitudes between *some* tailwheel
and tricycle pilots and between freesylers and dancers (some never
acknowledging that even though there are no jumps and spins, the
intricate, close and fast footwork in the dancing requires its own high
level of skill/timing/discipline).

And then there's the discipline parallel -- it isn't easy, you don't
learn it overnight, you never *stop* learning more, and there are few
shortcuts that don't come back to bite you.

Lastly, having learned to fly in gliders, there is an artistic element
to thermaling, maybe like your aerobatics. While the science may be the
same, if you look close enough, everyone has a "style". I remember
commenting that after watching from the ground for so long, even if the
gliders were too high to tell one from the other, I could often tell who
was who based on observations about their individual styles. Glider
aerobatics is *so much* like a graceful ballet in the sky, though some
of the guys cringe at that analogy.

Thanks for sharing that about the skating, you two. I knew there had to
be others who shared the two interests!

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 9:40 pm, Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
> On Sep 9, 10:57 am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
> > > >trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
> > > >is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
> > > >makes a pilot "mature" and safe.
>
> > > I agree with that assessment to a point.
>
> > > It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
> > > and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
> > > seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
> > > were never going to be safe.
>
> > > Roger (K8RI)
>
> > Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
> > known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
> > much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
> > Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
> > present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
> > more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
> > There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
> > these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
> > dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
> > regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.
>
> > Dan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I was not aware that there was a psychological test for this. Can you
> give pointers to where I can get more details?

I'll see if I can find it on the 'net somewhere. It
exists as paper here in the office, but I think it's copyrighted. Lots
of folks are interested in this sort of thing (they recognize the
traits) and if I knew where to find it they'd all be pleased.

Dan

[[email protected]]

On Sep 10, 6:54 am, wrote:
> On Sep 9, 9:40 pm, Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 9, 10:57 am, wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>
> > > > On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
> > > > >trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
> > > > >is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
> > > > >makes a pilot "mature" and safe.
>
> > > > I agree with that assessment to a point.
>
> > > > It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
> > > > and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
> > > > seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
> > > > were never going to be safe.
>
> > > > Roger (K8RI)
>
> > > Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
> > > known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
> > > much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
> > > Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
> > > present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
> > > more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
> > > There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
> > > these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
> > > dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
> > > regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.
>
> > > Dan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I was not aware that there was a psychological test for this. Can you
> > give pointers to where I can get more details?
>
> I'll see if I can find it on the 'net somewhere. It
> exists as paper here in the office, but I think it's copyrighted. Lots
> of folks are interested in this sort of thing (they recognize the
> traits) and if I knew where to find it they'd all be pleased.
>
> Dan

Found one, but it applies to helicopter pilots. You need to
know a little about 'copters. I found another for airplane pilots but
you need a password (which probably means it costs). I want to go
flying right now but if you Google the five words Invulnerability (I
mistakenly called it Invincibility), Macho, Impulsive, Resignation and
Anti-Authority, all together, you'll get some hits.

Helicopters:
http://helicopterflight.net/Helicopter%20Hazardous%20Attitude%202.pdf

Dan

[PPL-A (Canada)]

On Sep 8, 2:03 pm, Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
> the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
> 1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
> proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
> speed?
> ...

> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> What are your thoughts?

Other then the obvious objections (expressed here by many others)
regarding navigation skills ,and calm, ordered responses to
emergencies, as well as interpreting and dealing with weather both
before and during flight, I think you have identified a skill that
needs to be driven home and repeated again and again with ab initio
students until they are comfortable handling the aircraft in any
configuration in the slow-flight regime, and, indeed, transitioning
between different configurations while in slow flight, as well as
handling turns, climbs descents, and simulated "approaches" while in
slow flight. (They should get to enjoy it so much that they get in
the habit of practicing it themselves as often as possible after
certification!)

It is such an important concept (the backside of the power curve and
what it really means ... try explaining this only once or twice to a
typical driver of a car ... I usually only get confused looks even
after sketching it out on paper) that no student (no doubt most used
to driving a car where one power equals one speed on a flat driving
surface) should be considered proficient at slow flight until they can
not only DO it but also sketch their aircrafts power curve and explain
it to their instructor, identifying all the important point, as well
as explaining how it is that a range of power settings correspond to
more than one airspeed on the curve.

Anyway ... one small thing that relates to slow flight that I found
improved my approaches in early training immediately and considerably
was the realization that for a given power setting and rate of descent
(in feet per minute ), the airspeed would be the same every single
time. This allowed me to have a stable approach set up very quickly
after turning base and resulted in instantly noticeably better
approaches and landings on the next lesson after I learned this (my
instructor at the time noticed the improvement immediately,
unfortunately it wasn't him that taught me this fact ... I found it on
a website produced by another flight instructor ... it was a great
site, can't remember its URL now). The airspeed that I aimed for was
usually a few knots above slow flight (I aimed for approach speed for
short field landing, plus a few knots if it was a little windy or
gusty) and of course there was descent involved (about 500 fpm in the
172SP was typical).

Long story short ... slow flight training made me comfortable with
reducing the power considerably, accurately, and consistently and
confidently (to about 1000 - 1300 RPM initially depending on the
headwind, again 172SP) when turning base (not just slowly stepping the
power and speed down, which consumed too much time on base), quickly
and confidently aiming for an approach speed close to a "performance"
landing approach speed every time, and with the speed (172 SP - about
61 - 65 KIAS) and descent rate (initially aiming for 500 fpm) stable
and trimmed out, all that was required to attend to was the drift, any
shear on descent, and staying on a good approach slope visually, while
occasionally glancing at the airspeed to ensure it wasn't bleeding
off. This usually only required small power adjustments to keep on a
proper the approach slope, and of course with more headwind, more
power on final.

While many other skills (especially navigation, emergency procedures,
and weather assessment) are required to become (and remain) a safe,
confident but circumspect pilot, with respect to consistent and
confident aircraft control, there's nothing like slow flight to hone
one's skills and feel like you are flying the aircraft, and not the
other way around.

JAI PPL-A(SEL)
Canada

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Only slightly related to our topic, but in closing the skating
comparisons to flying, and since you are interested in the creative side
of the skating equation, I thought you might enjoy watching the video I
have linked with this post.
This is a video recreation by a very creative person of one of the
demonstrations I used to fly on the air show circuit in the P51 Mustang.
This fellow actually wrote to me and asked for the exact maneuver
sequence and even the location airport over which the display was flown
is accurate.
He did an absolutely marvelous job of it. When I watch this myself, I'm
sorry I didn't use music in the actual demonstration :-))



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4LODPguzTc
--
Dudley Henriques

[Mike Isaksen]

> wrote in message...
> .... BUT why would you ever want to _fly_ so close
> to stall? It's really dangerous to be just 10k above stall speed
> in any part of the circuit and that speed is not good for anything
> in real flight (terrible lift:drag and poor control response)... So
> what's the point?

Quite a few years back I flew with CAP where we did endless training of
ground ref manouvers at slow flight. One of the greatest concerns of the IPs
was to lose a search plane because the pilot got distracted when
investigating an item of interest while he was low and slow.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 8, 11:03 am, Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
> the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
> 1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
> proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
> speed?
> I teach all my students to slow fly with the entire range of
> configurations for the particular aircraft they are flying. Gear up/
> down, flaps up/down/in-between. I want them to be comfortable flying
> at the very edge of the stall speeds and spend a lot of time
> maneuvering right on the edge of a stall "nibble". It does more for
> pilot confidence and ability than anything else I can think of. They
> learn proper control useage and how their particular aircraft responds
> while in the low speed areas. Playing with different angles of bank
> while at low speeds and flying with a modicum of accuracy does a lot
> for proper control use.
> If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
> spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
> or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
> something similar?
> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> What are your thoughts?

I agree with you on the importance of slow flight but for a slightly
different reason. I think slow flight and stalls end up being seen by
student's as more of a rite-of-passage more than anything else. My
approach is to place an intense concentration on the indicators of
stall in their aircraft (stall horn, sloppy ailerons, buffeting, nose
drop, more buffet, then break). Therefore, I see slow flight more as a
way to ensure that students have enough experience with these
sensations to recognize them when they need to. In addition, I think
most CFI's teach slow flight at WAY to high of a speed. If the student
doesn't accidently stall on occasion its almost guaranteed that their
slow flight is too fast. In your standard Cessna/Piper type products
the plane should be bucking like a wild horse during slow flight.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Sep 8, 11:03 am, Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
>> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
>> the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
>> 1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
>> proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
>> speed?
>> I teach all my students to slow fly with the entire range of
>> configurations for the particular aircraft they are flying. Gear up/
>> down, flaps up/down/in-between. I want them to be comfortable flying
>> at the very edge of the stall speeds and spend a lot of time
>> maneuvering right on the edge of a stall "nibble". It does more for
>> pilot confidence and ability than anything else I can think of. They
>> learn proper control useage and how their particular aircraft responds
>> while in the low speed areas. Playing with different angles of bank
>> while at low speeds and flying with a modicum of accuracy does a lot
>> for proper control use.
>> If you think about it, how many accidents occur in the low speed
>> spectrum? Either from a stall, or from a high sink rate on approach,
>> or poor control use during an emergency or off airport landing, or
>> something similar?
>> In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
>> speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
>> will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
>> What are your thoughts?
>
> I agree with you on the importance of slow flight but for a slightly
> different reason. I think slow flight and stalls end up being seen by
> student's as more of a rite-of-passage more than anything else. My
> approach is to place an intense concentration on the indicators of
> stall in their aircraft (stall horn, sloppy ailerons, buffeting, nose
> drop, more buffet, then break). Therefore, I see slow flight more as a
> way to ensure that students have enough experience with these
> sensations to recognize them when they need to. In addition, I think
> most CFI's teach slow flight at WAY to high of a speed. If the student
> doesn't accidently stall on occasion its almost guaranteed that their
> slow flight is too fast. In your standard Cessna/Piper type products
> the plane should be bucking like a wild horse during slow flight.
>
I also approach slow flight and stall in this manner.

On the "right of passage" issue;
I believe instructors should be specifically tuned into this issue and
address it as 101 with every student they teach.
The mindset that learning to fly is simply to surmount the obstacles
placed in front of the student then reach out and accept the PPL is a
concept that I personally would like to see driven out of aviation.
Instructors should from the first meeting with a new student,make every
effort possible to down play the "steeping stones" required on the way
to the PPL and instead impart on the student the critical importance
connected with the actual learning involved.
The problem with the "right of passage" mindset is that students and
instructors alike have a tendency to consider these "accomplishments" as
the pinnacle of the learning curve for the area affected with learning
decreasing on the backside of that subject's pinnacle as learning on the
next required "step" proceeds.

Learning to fly an airplane is a process that begins the first day you
climb into an airplane and ends as you take the last breath of your
life. If you have been taught properly by a good CFI, there is a very
good chance that this last moment and breath you take as the learning
stops won't be in an airplane.


--
Dudley Henriques

[john hawkins]

Damn!! Dudley you have a way with words! What a great concept.

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
snip
.. If you have been taught properly by a good CFI, there is a very
> good chance that this last moment and breath you take as the learning
> stops won't be in an airplane.
>
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Sep 10, 10:24 am, "PPL-A (Canada)" > wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2:03 pm, Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
>
> > There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
> > the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
> > 1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
> > proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
> > speed?
> > ...
> > In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
> > speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
> > will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
> > What are your thoughts?
>
> Other then the obvious objections (expressed here by many others)
> regarding navigation skills ,and calm, ordered responses to
> emergencies, as well as interpreting and dealing with weather both
> before and during flight, I think you have identified a skill that
> needs to be driven home and repeated again and again with ab initio
> students until they are comfortable handling the aircraft in any
> configuration in the slow-flight regime, and, indeed, transitioning
> between different configurations while in slow flight, as well as
> handling turns, climbs descents, and simulated "approaches" while in
> slow flight. (They should get to enjoy it so much that they get in
> the habit of practicing it themselves as often as possible after
> certification!)
>
> It is such an important concept (the backside of the power curve and
> what it really means ... try explaining this only once or twice to a
> typical driver of a car ... I usually only get confused looks even
> after sketching it out on paper) that no student (no doubt most used
> to driving a car where one power equals one speed on a flat driving
> surface) should be considered proficient at slow flight until they can
> not only DO it but also sketch their aircrafts power curve and explain
> it to their instructor, identifying all the important point, as well
> as explaining how it is that a range of power settings correspond to
> more than one airspeed on the curve.
>
> Anyway ... one small thing that relates to slow flight that I found
> improved my approaches in early training immediately and considerably
> was the realization that for a given power setting and rate of descent
> (in feet per minute ), the airspeed would be the same every single
> time. This allowed me to have a stable approach set up very quickly
> after turning base and resulted in instantly noticeably better
> approaches and landings on the next lesson after I learned this (my
> instructor at the time noticed the improvement immediately,
> unfortunately it wasn't him that taught me this fact ... I found it on
> a website produced by another flight instructor ... it was a great
> site, can't remember its URL now). The airspeed that I aimed for was
> usually a few knots above slow flight (I aimed for approach speed for
> short field landing, plus a few knots if it was a little windy or
> gusty) and of course there was descent involved (about 500 fpm in the
> 172SP was typical).
>
> Long story short ... slow flight training made me comfortable with
> reducing the power considerably, accurately, and consistently and
> confidently (to about 1000 - 1300 RPM initially depending on the
> headwind, again 172SP) when turning base (not just slowly stepping the
> power and speed down, which consumed too much time on base), quickly
> and confidently aiming for an approach speed close to a "performance"
> landing approach speed every time, and with the speed (172 SP - about
> 61 - 65 KIAS) and descent rate (initially aiming for 500 fpm) stable
> and trimmed out, all that was required to attend to was the drift, any
> shear on descent, and staying on a good approach slope visually, while
> occasionally glancing at the airspeed to ensure it wasn't bleeding
> off. This usually only required small power adjustments to keep on a
> proper the approach slope, and of course with more headwind, more
> power on final.
>
> While many other skills (especially navigation, emergency procedures,
> and weather assessment) are required to become (and remain) a safe,
> confident but circumspect pilot, with respect to consistent and
> confident aircraft control, there's nothing like slow flight to hone
> one's skills and feel like you are flying the aircraft, and not the
> other way around.
>
> JAI PPL-A(SEL)
> Canada

JAI
Well written reply. Thanks
Ol S&B Canada Commercial #408XXX USA #1550XXX

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

john hawkins wrote:
> Damn!! Dudley you have a way with words! What a great concept.
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
> snip
> . If you have been taught properly by a good CFI, there is a very
>> good chance that this last moment and breath you take as the learning
>> stops won't be in an airplane.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
>
Comes in handy when my wife appears at the head of the stairs and asks me,
"Do I look fatter in the red dress or the blue one hon?"
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 22:19:06 -0400, Dudley Henriques
> wrote:

>john hawkins wrote:
>> Damn!! Dudley you have a way with words! What a great concept.
>>
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> snip
>> . If you have been taught properly by a good CFI, there is a very
>>> good chance that this last moment and breath you take as the learning
>>> stops won't be in an airplane.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dudley Henriques
>>
>>
>Comes in handy when my wife appears at the head of the stairs and asks me,
>"Do I look fatter in the red dress or the blue one hon?"

That's when your survival training and judgemental ability complement
each other. <:-))

Roger (K8RI)

>:-))

[Roger (K8RI)]

Some asked why we'd ever do slow flight or MCA in the pattern. We
don't practice it there, BUT one of our 150s went out with a student
and instructor and blew a jug right off the engine as they were
leaving the pattern. The had to fly almost the whole pattern at MCA
just to keep it in the air and even then they were slowly losing
altitude. They did make the runway and I hear it was a pretty good
landing.

The previous lesson had been slow flight and MCA

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 22:19:06 -0400, Dudley Henriques
> > wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>Comes in handy when my wife appears at the head of the stairs and asks me,
>>"Do I look fatter in the red dress or the blue one hon?"
>
> That's when your survival training and judgemental ability complement
> each other. <:-))

Not to mention very good health and "accident" insurance.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> Learning to fly an airplane is a process that begins the first day you
> climb into an airplane and ends as you take the last breath of your
> life. If you have been taught properly by a good CFI, there is a very
> good chance that this last moment and breath you take as the learning
> stops won't be in an airplane.

You couldn't be more right.

I was fortunate to have several instructors who imparted that the PPL
and additional ratings simply meant you met the minimum standards on the
check ride day. At that point, it's time to continually learn and
improve as experience is gained.

[[email protected]]

Bob Fry > wrote:
> >>>>> "Ol" == Ol Shy & Bashful > writes:

> Ol> There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow
> Ol> flight at the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent
> Ol> accidents than 1000 hours of cruise speed flight.
> . . .
> Ol> What are your thoughts?


Correct! We fly gliders/sailplanes 2 knots above stall in a 60
degree bank for HOURS...while circling in lift. How many glider
accidents are there (stall/spin) vs how many airplane accidents are
there (stall/spin)?

TRAINING! With TRAINING, it is safe to do the same in a C152!
You MIGHT even go soaring!!! (Note: soaring is when you are
going up and gliding is when you are going down). :-)

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 263 Young Eagles!

[Hilton]

Dan wrote:
> Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here.

Actually, it would be more correct to say "Attitude is Nothing" when
discussing stalls. :)

Hilton

[Dave[_1_]]

Loved the vid Dudley!

Dave

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:01:45 -0400, Dudley Henriques
> wrote:

>
>Only slightly related to our topic, but in closing the skating
>comparisons to flying, and since you are interested in the creative side
>of the skating equation, I thought you might enjoy watching the video I
>have linked with this post.
>This is a video recreation by a very creative person of one of the
>demonstrations I used to fly on the air show circuit in the P51 Mustang.
>This fellow actually wrote to me and asked for the exact maneuver
>sequence and even the location airport over which the display was flown
>is accurate.
>He did an absolutely marvelous job of it. When I watch this myself, I'm
>sorry I didn't use music in the actual demonstration :-))
>
>
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4LODPguzTc