NTSB question

[Jay Honeck]

How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
when (or if) they are going to release information?

Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
last winter. See the preliminary report here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1

Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.

Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest.

Thanks,
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Stewart]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
> when (or if) they are going to release information?
>
> Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
> last winter. See the preliminary report here:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1
>
> Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
> report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
> since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.
>
> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
> laid to rest.

Don't know.

If it were me, I'd call the Des Moines FSDO
and ask the Investigator-In-Charge, Mitchell
F. Gallo, those questions. Maybe you could
get a contact in the NTSB to talk to.

Sorry for your loss.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
> when (or if) they are going to release information?
>
> Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
> last winter. See the preliminary report here:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1
>
> Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
> report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
> since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.
>
> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
> laid to rest.
>
> Thanks,

Over the years I've come to the completely unscientific conclusion they seem
to prioritize based on whether or not they are going to get any info out of
the investigation that will effect the greatest number of people.

As an example if there is a 172 that seems to have had a structural failure
in flight it will take priority over a one off experimental that did the
same thing.

I'd call the FSDO for the area and if you don't like or can't get an answer
from them I'd call the NTSB.

[Marco Leon]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
> laid to rest.

Being a government entity, I'd imagine that there's quite a bit of
behind-the-scenes stuff at play here. Manpower, internal and external
politics, civilian pressures (i.e. families, friends), and media are but a
few factors. Just think of all those wrecks they found while searching for
Fossett to get an idea of how some accidents are treated differently than
others.

Marco

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
> when (or if) they are going to release information?
>
> Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
> last winter. See the preliminary report here:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1
>
> Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
> report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
> since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.
>
> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
> laid to rest.

Of course, a fatal accident is going to get priority over a fender-bender.

It's also going to be MUCH MORE thorough. Major components are going to be
subject to forensic testing, records are going to be very closely
scrutinized. Quite likely depositions are going to be taken rather than just
witness statements. The accident scene will be highly scrutinized.

The document you read on the NTSB site will be a composite of perhaps a
couple/several thousand pages of investigative notes, from several
investigators.

NOTE: It ain't like on TV where they're done in 45 minutes with 15 minutes
worth of commercials.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
>> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
>> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
>> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
>> laid to rest.
>
> Being a government entity, I'd imagine that there's quite a bit of
> behind-the-scenes stuff at play here. Manpower, internal and external
> politics, civilian pressures (i.e. families, friends), and media are but a
> few factors. Just think of all those wrecks they found while searching for
> Fossett to get an idea of how some accidents are treated differently than
> others.
>

The 9/11 "truthers" are telling us we're not done yet, six years on.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
>> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
>> when (or if) they are going to release information?
>>
>> Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
>> last winter. See the preliminary report here:
>>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1
>>
>> Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
>> report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
>> since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.
>>
>> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
>> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
>> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
>> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
>> laid to rest.
>
> Of course, a fatal accident is going to get priority over a fender-bender.
>
> It's also going to be MUCH MORE thorough. Major components are going to be
> subject to forensic testing, records are going to be very closely
> scrutinized. Quite likely depositions are going to be taken rather than
> just witness statements. The accident scene will be highly scrutinized.
>
> The document you read on the NTSB site will be a composite of perhaps a
> couple/several thousand pages of investigative notes, from several
> investigators.
>
> NOTE: It ain't like on TV where they're done in 45 minutes with 15 minutes
> worth of commercials.

This is a true statement in the world of certified aircraft, but crashes of
experimentals do not <typically> benefit from in-depth investigations.

KB

[Shirl]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
> when (or if) they are going to release information?
>
> Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
> last winter. See the preliminary report here:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1
>
> Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
> report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
> since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.
>
> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
> laid to rest.

Hi Jay -- last October 18th (2006), my airplane was totaled in an
emergency landing in the desert due to a complete engine failure (oil
cooler split on start-up, engine seized about 6 minutes into the
flight). We thankfully walked away with minor cuts/bruises, thanks in
large part to some luck in that we got far enough to be away from
houses/buildings and were over the desert when it quit (although the
desert is NOT as flat as it looks from 50 feet up!), and that I was with
my CFIG who made a great landing on some rough desert floor and kept
"flying" till the gear snapped off and it abruptly went down on its
chin. Our biggest scars are internal, but we are flying again, having
learned a lot from the experience.

It was obvious that the oil cooler split at one of the bottom fins, but
the NTSB removed the cooler and the thermo-coupler for further testing.
As of a few days ago, there still has been no final report issued, and
we too are awaiting that for various reasons. I've been told it usually
takes around 10 months, give or take, for a final report to be issued,
and that obviously, accidents involving fatalities take priority.

As for the comparison with other more recent accidents that have been
laid to rest, the investigation and results of those other accidents may
simply be more black-and-white and therefore easier/faster to resolve
and close.

I'm about to call the NTSB and ask if/when we can expect a final report.
I'll let you know if I find out anything that may be helpful.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Of course, a fatal accident is going to get priority over a
>> fender-bender.
>>
>> It's also going to be MUCH MORE thorough. Major components are going to
>> be subject to forensic testing, records are going to be very closely
>> scrutinized. Quite likely depositions are going to be taken rather than
>> just witness statements. The accident scene will be highly scrutinized.
>>
>> The document you read on the NTSB site will be a composite of perhaps a
>> couple/several thousand pages of investigative notes, from several
>> investigators.
>>
>> NOTE: It ain't like on TV where they're done in 45 minutes with 15
>> minutes worth of commercials.
>
> This is a true statement in the world of certified aircraft, but crashes
> of experimentals do not <typically> benefit from in-depth investigations.
>

Fatal accidents do. Maybe not as much as certified, since much of the
forensics is left out, but note how many fatal accidents involving certified
aircraft took well over a year to a year and a half to reach a final
conclusion. This one that Jay mentioned has been going on seven months IIRC.

IIUC, the NTSB won't even come out for a non-injury accident involving a
home-built, and won't do much more than a cursory investigation for a HB
accident with minor injuries.

Two things the NTSB will look at are pilot error and mechanical failure. In
a HB, they don't really look at the mechanicals, but they will look at the
pilots actions. Is this not true?

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
>> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
>> when (or if) they are going to release information?
>>
>> Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
>> last winter. See the preliminary report here:
>>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1
>>
>> Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
>> report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
>> since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.
>>
>> Anyone understand the timing of this stuff? Anyone got experience
>> inside the NTSB? Blaine's family and friends are understandably
>> getting frustrated with the glacial pace of this investigation,
>> especially when compared to other more recent accidents that have been
>> laid to rest.
>
> Hi Jay -- last October 18th (2006), my airplane was totaled in an
> emergency landing in the desert due to a complete engine failure (oil
> cooler split on start-up, engine seized about 6 minutes into the
> flight). We thankfully walked away with minor cuts/bruises, thanks in
> large part to some luck in that we got far enough to be away from
> houses/buildings and were over the desert when it quit (although the
> desert is NOT as flat as it looks from 50 feet up!), and that I was with
> my CFIG who made a great landing on some rough desert floor and kept
> "flying" till the gear snapped off and it abruptly went down on its
> chin. Our biggest scars are internal, but we are flying again, having
> learned a lot from the experience.
>
> It was obvious that the oil cooler split at one of the bottom fins, but
> the NTSB removed the cooler and the thermo-coupler for further testing.
> As of a few days ago, there still has been no final report issued, and
> we too are awaiting that for various reasons. I've been told it usually
> takes around 10 months, give or take, for a final report to be issued,
> and that obviously, accidents involving fatalities take priority.
>
> As for the comparison with other more recent accidents that have been
> laid to rest, the investigation and results of those other accidents may
> simply be more black-and-white and therefore easier/faster to resolve
> and close.
>
> I'm about to call the NTSB and ask if/when we can expect a final report.
> I'll let you know if I find out anything that may be helpful.

What were you flying?, certified, or home-built?

At least you walked away with the only personal damage being to your ego.
:~)

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > Hi Jay -- last October 18th (2006), my airplane was totaled in an
> > emergency landing in the desert due to a complete engine failure (oil
> > cooler split on start-up, engine seized about 6 minutes into the
> > flight). We thankfully walked away with minor cuts/bruises, thanks in
> > large part to some luck in that we got far enough to be away from
> > houses/buildings and were over the desert when it quit (although the
> > desert is NOT as flat as it looks from 50 feet up!), and that I was with
> > my CFIG who made a great landing on some rough desert floor and kept
> > "flying" till the gear snapped off and it abruptly went down on its
> > chin. Our biggest scars are internal, but we are flying again, having
> > learned a lot from the experience.
> >
> > It was obvious that the oil cooler split at one of the bottom fins, but
> > the NTSB removed the cooler and the thermo-coupler for further testing.
> > As of a few days ago, there still has been no final report issued, and
> > we too are awaiting that for various reasons. I've been told it usually
> > takes around 10 months, give or take, for a final report to be issued,
> > and that obviously, accidents involving fatalities take priority.
> >
> > As for the comparison with other more recent accidents that have been
> > laid to rest, the investigation and results of those other accidents may
> > simply be more black-and-white and therefore easier/faster to resolve
> > and close.
> >
> > I'm about to call the NTSB and ask if/when we can expect a final report.
> > I'll let you know if I find out anything that may be helpful.

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> What were you flying?, certified, or home-built?

A 1961 Shinn, predecessor to the Varga. They are certified, but they
only made less than 200 of them, there are probably around 150 still
flying. It was supposed to be competition for the C-150 as a primary
trainer, but it never really caught on. It's an O-320, 2-seat,
tandem-with-canopy, tricycle that flies with a stick. Great, fun little
airplane. The FAA was there less than 30 minutes after it happened.
After making sure our injuries were minor, the first thing they said
they were going to need were the aircraft logbooks, which I am
meticulous about, thank goodness.

> At least you walked away with the only personal damage being
> to your ego. :~)

It wasn't pilot error, so the damage wasn't to ego, in fact the FAA
investigator said the other two oil-loss, engine failures he had
investigated were both fatal, so he was complimentary on how we handled
it. The worst part was going through the scary experience, the
apprehension you feel afterward, and realizing how QUICKLY everything
happens after the engine fails and quits -- you don't have much time to
make those critical decisions. We walked away with some valuable
experience in addition to our minor injuries. We do many things
differently now. I guess we must have been fairly well prepared or we
wouldn't have walked away, but we're even moreso now.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
>> At least you walked away with the only personal damage being
>> to your ego. :~)
>
> It wasn't pilot error, so the damage wasn't to ego, in fact the FAA
> investigator said the other two oil-loss, engine failures he had
> investigated were both fatal, so he was complimentary on how we handled
> it.

I said your ego (not ego in the Freudian sense), not your pride.

Your ego kept you alive, thank gawd.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:44:49 -0700, Jay Honeck > wrote:

> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
> when (or if) they are going to release information?
>
> Our friend Blaine Andersen was killed in a crash near Grinnell, IA
> last winter. See the preliminary report here:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070208X00158&key=1
>
> Strangely, all these months later, it's still just the "preliminary"
> report. This, while many accidents and incidents that have happened
> since then have been given "factual" and "probable cause" reports.

Typical flow time in the past has been one year from accident to Probable Cause.
They seem to be putting some final reports up earlier lately, but these are
generally the cut-and-dried cases (no mechanical issues, pilot admits mistake,
etc.).

Ron Wanttaja

[Jay Honeck]

> Typical flow time in the past has been one year from accident to Probable Cause.
> They seem to be putting some final reports up earlier lately, but these are
> generally the cut-and-dried cases (no mechanical issues, pilot admits mistake,
> etc.).

Thanks Ron (and all) for commenting.

It just gripes one to see a "Preliminary Report" still posted so long
after the crash. Corey Lidle's encounter with a skyscraper happened
just 3 months before Blaine's accident, and it's already seen
"Preliminary", "Probable Cause" and "Final" reports...

Of course, that one was pretty obvious.

We're all eager to find out what really happened the day our friend
(and his passenger) died. I'm still stunned that a high-time CFI/
charter pilot/home-builder could be killed by an engine failure (of,
as yet, undetermined cause) over flat terrain. We all hope to learn
something from the NTSB report.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Marco Leon]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> The 9/11 "truthers" are telling us we're not done yet, six years on.

I hope you're not thinking that I meant it to be a conspiracy theory. I was
speculating from a pure process perspective. Simply-put, it's a high-profile
versus low-profile thing. If Jay's friend (may he rest in peace) happened to
be named John Travolta or be the son of a former president, then you can bet
there would be a 5-page preliminary accident report or maybe even a final
cause. I'd even speculate that if someone close to the situation knew
someone who worked for the NTSB, there would be more progress.

No conspiracy theories, just life in public service.

Marco

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The 9/11 "truthers" are telling us we're not done yet, six years on.
>
> I hope you're not thinking that I meant it to be a conspiracy theory. I
> was speculating from a pure process perspective. Simply-put, it's a
> high-profile versus low-profile thing. If Jay's friend (may he rest in
> peace) happened to be named John Travolta or be the son of a former
> president, then you can bet there would be a 5-page preliminary accident
> report or maybe even a final cause. I'd even speculate that if someone
> close to the situation knew someone who worked for the NTSB, there would
> be more progress.
>
> No conspiracy theories, just life in public service.

Just pointing out that the nutcases still aren't satisfied with the
conclusions based on the evidence....six years out. Jay's friends case was
just, what ,seven months ago?

They may have missed this one, though:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm

Of course we all know how the BBC is in bed with GWB and Co.

[Ricky]

On Sep 11, 2:44 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> How does the NTSB go about researching GA accidents? Specifically,
> how do they decide *when* they're going to do the investigation, and
> when (or if) they are going to release information?

> Thanks,

> Jay Honeck

I am mildly interested, too.
A close relative of mine was involved in a non-injury takeoff accident
when the aircraft he was flying rolled left at rotation and impacted
the ground causing multiple rollovers and complete destruction of the
aircraft. Really, really amazing he wasn't hurt & there was no post-
crash fire. He walked away & is fine.
This was months ago & the aircraft is still sitting on the edge of the
field it crashed in. For all we know, no to little action by NTSB of
yet...
I have purposefully withheld details of this crash at family's
request.

Ricky

[Denny]

For all we know, no to little action by NTSB of
> yet...
..
>
> Ricky

Yup, they are gonna be surprised when they finally hear about it!

denny

[Ricky]

On Sep 13, 6:24 am, Denny > wrote:

>> For all we know, no to little action by NTSB of

> > yet...

> > Ricky

> Yup, they are gonna be surprised when they finally hear about it!

> denny

No, sir.
NTSB has visited the accident site and has been in communication with
the pilot.
They certainly "heard about it" immediately after the accident.

Ricky

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
>
> I consulted with them on the John Denver crash. There have been other
> Long EZ crashes into the ocean, with fatalities, that they never
> opened a file on.

Odd...I just did an NTSB search for accidents on "Long EZ" and came up with
two pages worth. Even the non-fatal crashes took over a year to investigate.

>
> They did an investigation into the prototype Berkut crash. They never
> talked to us,

Who is "us"?

> they didn't get copies of the videotapes of the crash.
> They just waited a year and issued a report saying it was an
> acellerated stall. It wasn't - that much was obvious from the
> videotapes.



> But it got the file off someone's desk, and didn't pin
> the blame on anyone who might object.

Doubtful.

> If it hadn't happened at an
> airshow I doubt they would have opened the file in the first place.

They do.

[Shirl]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
> > If it hadn't happened at an airshow I doubt they
> > would have opened the file in the first place.

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> They do.

Where did anyone get the idea that they don't investigate unless it's
someone famous or it happens at an airshow? That's sure not the case in
this neck o' the woods.