LC Bowman: An Open Letter to the New Generation of Military Officers Serving and Protecting Our Nation

[Jim34]

An Open Letter to the New Generation of Military Officers Serving and
Protecting Our Nation

By Dr. Robert M. Bowman
Lt. Col., USAF, ret., National Commander, The Patriots

"The Nuremberg Principles says that we in the military have not only
the right, but also the DUTY to refuse an illegal order. It was on
this basis that we executed Nazi officers who were 'only carrying out
their orders'... The Constitution which we are sworn to uphold says
that treaties entered into by the United States are the 'highest law
of the land,' equivalent to the Constitution itself. Accordingly, we
in the military are sworn to uphold treaty law, including the United
Nations charter and the Geneva Convention... Based on the above, I
contend that should some civilian order you to initiate a nuclear
attack on Iran (for example), you are duty-bound to refuse that order.
I might also suggest that you should consider whether the
circumstances demand that you arrest whoever gave the order as a war
criminal."


Dear Comrades in Arms,

You are facing challenges in 2007 that we of previous generations
never dreamed of. I'm just an old fighter pilot (101 combat missions
in Vietnam , F-4 Phantom, Phu Cat, 1969-1970) who's now a disabled
veteran with terminal cancer from Agent Orange. Our mailing list (over
22,000) includes veterans from all branches of the service, all
political parties, and all parts of the political spectrum. We are
Republicans and Democrats, Greens and Libertarians, Constitutionists
and Reformers, and a good many Independents. What unites us is our
desire for a government that (1) follows the Constitution, (2) honors
the truth, and (3) serves the people.

We see our government going down the wrong path, all too often
ignoring military advice, and heading us toward great danger. And we
look to you who still serve as the best hope for protecting our nation
from disaster.

We see the current Iraq War as having been unnecessary, entered into
under false pretenses, and horribly mismanaged by the civilian
authorities. Thousands of our brave troops have been needlessly
sacrificed in a futile attempt at occupation of a hostile land. Many
more thousands have suffered wounds which will change their lives
forever. Tens of thousands have severe psychological problems because
of what they have seen and what they have done. Potentially hundreds
of thousands could be poisoned by depleted uranium, with symptoms
appearing years later, just as happened to us exposed to Agent Orange.
The military services are depleted and demoralized. The VA system is
under-funded and overwhelmed. The National Guard and Reserves have
been subjected to tour after tour, disrupting lives for even the lucky
ones who return intact. Jobs have been lost, marriages have been
destroyed, homes have been foreclosed, and children have been
estranged. And for what? We have lost allies, made new enemies, and
created thousands of new terrorists, further endangering the American
people.

But you know all this. I'm sure you also see the enormous danger in a
possible attack on Iran , possibly with nuclear weapons. Such an
event, seriously contemplated by the Cheney faction of the Bush
administration, would make enemies of Russia and China and turn us
into the number one rogue nation on earth. The effect on our long-
term national security would be devastating.

Some of us had hoped that the new Democratic Congress would end the
occupation of Iraq and take firm steps to prevent an attack on Iran ,
perhaps by impeaching Bush and Cheney. These hopes have been dashed.
The lily-livered Democrats have caved in, turning their backs on those
few (like Congressman Jack Murtha) who understand the situation. Many
of us have personally walked the halls of Congress, to no avail.

This is where you come in.

We know that many of you share our concern and our determination to
protect our republic from an arrogant, out-of-control, imperial
presidency and a compliant, namby-pamby Congress (both of which are
unduly influenced by the oil companies and other big-money interests).
We know that you (like us) wouldn't have pursued a military career
unless you were idealistic and devoted to our nation and its people.
(None of us do it for the pay and working conditions!) But we also
recognize that you may not see how you can influence these events. We
in the military have always had a historic subservience to civilian
authority.

Perhaps I can help with whatever wisdom I've gathered from age (I
retired in 1978, so I am ancient indeed).

Our oath of office is to "protect and defend the Constitution of the
United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." Might I
suggest that this includes a rogue president and vice-president?
Certainly we are bound to carry out the legal orders of our superiors.
But the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) which binds all of us
enshrines the Nuremberg Principles which this country established
after World War II (which you are too young to remember). One of those
Nuremberg Principles says that we in the military have not only the
right, but also the DUTY to refuse an illegal order. It was on this
basis that we executed Nazi officers who were "only carrying out their
orders."

The Constitution which we are sworn to uphold says that treaties
entered into by the United States are the "highest law of the land,"
equivalent to the Constitution itself. Accordingly, we in the military
are sworn to uphold treaty law, including the United Nations charter
and the Geneva Convention.

Based on the above, I contend that should some civilian order you to
initiate a nuclear attack on Iran (for example), you are duty- bound
to refuse that order. I might also suggest that you should consider
whether the circumstances demand that you arrest whoever gave the
order as a war criminal.

I know for a fact that in recent history (once under Nixon and once
under Reagan), the military nuclear chain of command in the White
House discussed these things and were prepared to refuse an order to
"nuke Russia ." In effect they took the (non-existent) "button" out of
the hands of the President.. We were thus never quite as close to
World War III as many feared, no matter how irrational any president
might have become. They determined that the proper response to any
such order was, "Why, sir?" Unless there was (in their words) a "damn
good answer," nothing was going to happen.

I suggest that if you in this generation have not had such a
discussion, perhaps it is time you do. In hindsight, it's too bad such
a discussion did not take place prior to the preemptive "shock and
awe" attack on Baghdad . Many of us at the time spoke out vehemently
that such an attack would be an impeachable offense, a war crime
against the people of Iraq , and treason against the United States of
America . But our voices were drowned out and never reached the ears
of the generals in 2003. I now regret that I never sent a letter such
as this at that time, but depended on the corporate media to carry my
message. I must not make that mistake again.

Also in hindsight, President Bush could be court-martialed for abuse
of power as Commander-in-Chief. Vice President Cheney could probably
be court-martialed for his performance as Acting Commander- in-Chief
in the White House bunker the morning of September 11, 2001 .

We in the U.S. military would never consider a military coup, removing
an elected president and installing one of our own. But following our
oath of office, obeying the Nuremberg Principles, and preventing a
rogue president from committing a war crime is not a military coup. If
it requires the detention of executive branch officials, we will not
impose a military dictatorship. We will let the Constitutional
succession take place. This is what we are sworn to. This is
protecting the Constitution, our highest obligation. In 2007, this is
what is meant by "Duty, Honor, Country."

Thank you all for your service to this nation. May God bless America ,
and sustain us in this difficult time. And thanks for listening to the
musings of an old junior officer.

Respectfully,

Robert M. Bowman, PhD, Lt. Col., USAF, ret.

####################

"The official story of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It's impossible.
High levels of our government don't want us to know
what happened and who's responsible. "

- Colonel Bob Bowman (USAF Ret), Caltech PhD in Nuclear Engineering
and Aeronautics,
decorated combat fighter pilot (101 missions in Vietnam), and former
head of
Presidents Ford and Carter's 'Star Wars' program

www.patriotsquestion911.com

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:13:49 -0000, Jim34
> wrote:

>An Open Letter to the New Generation of Military Officers Serving and
>Protecting Our Nation
>
>By Dr. Robert M. Bowman
>Lt. Col., USAF, ret., National Commander, The Patriots
>

This guy is an incredible flake. Runs his own church, believes the
government was complicit in 9/11, runs with the Berkeley crowd, etc.
etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Bowman

An embarrassment.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[[email protected]]

On Sep 15, 1:13 pm, Jim34 > wrote:
> An Open Letter to the New Generation of Military Officers Serving and
> Protecting Our Nation
>
> By Dr. Robert M. Bowman
> Lt. Col., USAF, ret., National Commander, The Patriots
>
> "The Nuremberg Principles says that we in the military have not only
> the right, but also the DUTY to refuse an illegal order. It was on
> this basis that we executed Nazi officers who were 'only carrying out
> their orders'... The Constitution which we are sworn to uphold says
> that treaties entered into by the United States are the 'highest law
> of the land,' equivalent to the Constitution itself. Accordingly, we
> in the military are sworn to uphold treaty law, including the United
> Nations charter and the Geneva Convention... Based on the above, I
> contend that should some civilian order you to initiate a nuclear
> attack on Iran (for example), you are duty-bound to refuse that order.
> I might also suggest that you should consider whether the
> circumstances demand that you arrest whoever gave the order as a war
> criminal."

But, we already anticapted that the moron Washingtoon and Exxon
military would use
that weasely U.N. interpretation of the Constitution.
Which is case you idiots are wondering is
where GPS, Stealth Aircraft, Smart Bombs, ATM machines,
Spell Checkers, and Iggy Pop come from.



>
> Dear Comrades in Arms,
>
> You are facing challenges in 2007 that we of previous generations
> never dreamed of. I'm just an old fighter pilot (101 combat missions
> in Vietnam , F-4 Phantom, Phu Cat, 1969-1970) who's now a disabled
> veteran with terminal cancer from Agent Orange. Our mailing list (over
> 22,000) includes veterans from all branches of the service, all
> political parties, and all parts of the political spectrum. We are
> Republicans and Democrats, Greens and Libertarians, Constitutionists
> and Reformers, and a good many Independents. What unites us is our
> desire for a government that (1) follows the Constitution, (2) honors
> the truth, and (3) serves the people.
>
> We see our government going down the wrong path, all too often
> ignoring military advice, and heading us toward great danger. And we
> look to you who still serve as the best hope for protecting our nation
> from disaster.
>
> We see the current Iraq War as having been unnecessary, entered into
> under false pretenses, and horribly mismanaged by the civilian
> authorities. Thousands of our brave troops have been needlessly
> sacrificed in a futile attempt at occupation of a hostile land. Many
> more thousands have suffered wounds which will change their lives
> forever. Tens of thousands have severe psychological problems because
> of what they have seen and what they have done. Potentially hundreds
> of thousands could be poisoned by depleted uranium, with symptoms
> appearing years later, just as happened to us exposed to Agent Orange.
> The military services are depleted and demoralized. The VA system is
> under-funded and overwhelmed. The National Guard and Reserves have
> been subjected to tour after tour, disrupting lives for even the lucky
> ones who return intact. Jobs have been lost, marriages have been
> destroyed, homes have been foreclosed, and children have been
> estranged. And for what? We have lost allies, made new enemies, and
> created thousands of new terrorists, further endangering the American
> people.
>
> But you know all this. I'm sure you also see the enormous danger in a
> possible attack on Iran , possibly with nuclear weapons. Such an
> event, seriously contemplated by the Cheney faction of the Bush
> administration, would make enemies of Russia and China and turn us
> into the number one rogue nation on earth. The effect on our long-
> term national security would be devastating.
>
> Some of us had hoped that the new Democratic Congress would end the
> occupation of Iraq and take firm steps to prevent an attack on Iran ,
> perhaps by impeaching Bush and Cheney. These hopes have been dashed.
> The lily-livered Democrats have caved in, turning their backs on those
> few (like Congressman Jack Murtha) who understand the situation. Many
> of us have personally walked the halls of Congress, to no avail.
>
> This is where you come in.
>
> We know that many of you share our concern and our determination to
> protect our republic from an arrogant, out-of-control, imperial
> presidency and a compliant, namby-pamby Congress (both of which are
> unduly influenced by the oil companies and other big-money interests).
> We know that you (like us) wouldn't have pursued a military career
> unless you were idealistic and devoted to our nation and its people.
> (None of us do it for the pay and working conditions!) But we also
> recognize that you may not see how you can influence these events. We
> in the military have always had a historic subservience to civilian
> authority.
>
> Perhaps I can help with whatever wisdom I've gathered from age (I
> retired in 1978, so I am ancient indeed).
>
> Our oath of office is to "protect and defend the Constitution of the
> United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." Might I
> suggest that this includes a rogue president and vice-president?
> Certainly we are bound to carry out the legal orders of our superiors.
> But the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) which binds all of us
> enshrines the Nuremberg Principles which this country established
> after World War II (which you are too young to remember). One of those
> Nuremberg Principles says that we in the military have not only the
> right, but also the DUTY to refuse an illegal order. It was on this
> basis that we executed Nazi officers who were "only carrying out their
> orders."
>
> The Constitution which we are sworn to uphold says that treaties
> entered into by the United States are the "highest law of the land,"
> equivalent to the Constitution itself. Accordingly, we in the military
> are sworn to uphold treaty law, including the United Nations charter
> and the Geneva Convention.
>
> Based on the above, I contend that should some civilian order you to
> initiate a nuclear attack on Iran (for example), you are duty- bound
> to refuse that order. I might also suggest that you should consider
> whether the circumstances demand that you arrest whoever gave the
> order as a war criminal.
>
> I know for a fact that in recent history (once under Nixon and once
> under Reagan), the military nuclear chain of command in the White
> House discussed these things and were prepared to refuse an order to
> "nuke Russia ." In effect they took the (non-existent) "button" out of
> the hands of the President.. We were thus never quite as close to
> World War III as many feared, no matter how irrational any president
> might have become. They determined that the proper response to any
> such order was, "Why, sir?" Unless there was (in their words) a "damn
> good answer," nothing was going to happen.
>
> I suggest that if you in this generation have not had such a
> discussion, perhaps it is time you do. In hindsight, it's too bad such
> a discussion did not take place prior to the preemptive "shock and
> awe" attack on Baghdad . Many of us at the time spoke out vehemently
> that such an attack would be an impeachable offense, a war crime
> against the people of Iraq , and treason against the United States of
> America . But our voices were drowned out and never reached the ears
> of the generals in 2003. I now regret that I never sent a letter such
> as this at that time, but depended on the corporate media to carry my
> message. I must not make that mistake again.
>
> Also in hindsight, President Bush could be court-martialed for abuse
> of power as Commander-in-Chief. Vice President Cheney could probably
> be court-martialed for his performance as Acting Commander- in-Chief
> in the White House bunker the morning of September 11, 2001 .
>
> We in the U.S. military would never consider a military coup, removing
> an elected president and installing one of our own. But following our
> oath of office, obeying the Nuremberg Principles, and preventing a
> rogue president from committing a war crime is not a military coup. If
> it requires the detention of executive branch officials, we will not
> impose a military dictatorship. We will let the Constitutional
> succession take place. This is what we are sworn to. This is
> protecting the Constitution, our highest obligation. In 2007, this is
> what is meant by "Duty, Honor, Country."
>
> Thank you all for your service to this nation. May God bless America ,
> and sustain us in this difficult time. And thanks for listening to the
> musings of an old junior officer.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Robert M. Bowman, PhD, Lt. Col., USAF, ret.
>
> ####################
>
> "The official story of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It's impossible.
> High levels of our government don't want us to know
> what happened and who's responsible. "
>
> - Colonel Bob Bowman (USAF Ret), Caltech PhD in Nuclear Engineering
> and Aeronautics,
> decorated combat fighter pilot (101 missions in Vietnam), and former
> head of
> Presidents Ford and Carter's 'Star Wars' program
>
> www.patriotsquestion911.com

[Testor Grey]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:13:49 -0000, Jim34
> wrote:

>Perhaps I can help with whatever wisdom I've gathered from age (I
>retired in 1978, so I am ancient indeed).

I retired from the U.S. Navy in 1973 as a Chief Petty Officer.
With all due respect, sir, I think you, and all who think
as you do, are full of crap.

[a425couple]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> On Sat, 15 Sep Jim34 > wrote:
> >An Open Letter to the New Generation of Military Officers Serving
> >and Protecting Our Nation
> >By Dr. Robert M. Bowman
> >Lt. Col., USAF, ret., National Commander, The Patriots

> This guy is an incredible flake. Runs his own church, believes the
> government was complicit in 9/11, runs with the Berkeley crowd, etc.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Bowman
> An embarrassment. Ed Rasimus

My thoughts are same as Ed's.

Meanwhile (related, but not central),
I'm willing to be informed about something that
early in Bowman's letter jiggled my "flake meter".

Bowman says,
"I'm just an old fighter pilot (101 combat missions in
Vietnam , F-4 Phantom, Phu Cat, 1969-1970) who's now a
disabled veteran with terminal cancer from Agent Orange."

Can someone inform me how a AF F-4 pilot was
that exposed to Agent Orange?
(seems to me a lot of not-vets as well as vets, as they
get past age 70, have increasing cases of various cancers,
"What?! Think you are going to live forever?!")

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:53:57 -0700, "a425couple"
> wrote:

>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>> On Sat, 15 Sep Jim34 > wrote:
>> >An Open Letter to the New Generation of Military Officers Serving
>> >and Protecting Our Nation
>> >By Dr. Robert M. Bowman
>> >Lt. Col., USAF, ret., National Commander, The Patriots
>
>> This guy is an incredible flake. Runs his own church, believes the
>> government was complicit in 9/11, runs with the Berkeley crowd, etc.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Bowman
>> An embarrassment. Ed Rasimus
>
>My thoughts are same as Ed's.
>
>Meanwhile (related, but not central),
>I'm willing to be informed about something that
>early in Bowman's letter jiggled my "flake meter".
>
>Bowman says,
>"I'm just an old fighter pilot (101 combat missions in
>Vietnam , F-4 Phantom, Phu Cat, 1969-1970) who's now a
>disabled veteran with terminal cancer from Agent Orange."
>
>Can someone inform me how a AF F-4 pilot was
>that exposed to Agent Orange?
>(seems to me a lot of not-vets as well as vets, as they
>get past age 70, have increasing cases of various cancers,
>"What?! Think you are going to live forever?!")

Quickly found this:

>Military installations throughout southern Viet Nam (e.g., Bien Hoa, Da Nang, Nha Trang, and
>Phu Cat) served as bulk storage and supply facilities for Agent Orange (US Army documents,
>1969; Cecil, 1986). These storage sites experienced spills of herbicide. In 1970, for example, a
>7,500 US gallon spill of Agent Orange occurred on the Bien Hoa base. Between January and
>March 1970, three other spills of lesser volume occurred at Bien Hoa (US Army documents,

It's from this report:
http://www.hatfieldgroup.com/files/HATFIELDAO.pdf

Looks pretty professional and credible. Pretty much anybody who set
foot in-country is presumptive for Agent Orange as a causative factor
for some cancers.

(I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)

And, that manifested at age 60.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[La N]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message >
> (I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
> determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
> manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
> and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
> anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
> passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)
>

Congrats on your five years, Ed!

As for me, I'm 7 years in remission of a rare bone marrow cancer that is
thought to be caused by, in part, exposure to benzene. Always good to read
stories of other "survivors".

- nilita

[Billzz]

"La N" > wrote in message
news:7ibJi.89565$bO6.40689@edtnps89...
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message >
>> (I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
>> determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
>> manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
>> and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
>> anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
>> passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)
>>
>
> Congrats on your five years, Ed!
>
> As for me, I'm 7 years in remission of a rare bone marrow cancer that is
> thought to be caused by, in part, exposure to benzene. Always good to
> read stories of other "survivors".
>
> - nilita

Good going. I'm out of prostate and bladder cancer. When I was diagnosed I
went into the Agent Orange Study. The VA gave me a physical and they send
updates quarterly. The presumptive correlation was made so they could get
vets into VA to do the study. But according to one of the latest updates,
it appears that there is no provable correlation. Heres what they said....

"At the end of the 20 years of follow-up, Ranch Hand pilots and ground crews
as a group exhibited no statistically significant increase in the risk of
cancer. Differences by military occupation were inconsistent. The Ranch Hand
enlisted ground crews, the subgroup with the highest dioxin levels and
presumably the greatest herbicide exposure, had a 14 percent decreased risk
of cancer. These results do not suggest that herbicides or dioxin exposure
are related to cancer in these veterans."

This info does not really help anyone who has cancer, but at least it's one
thing to check off the list. My urologist told me that "if you are a man,
and if you live long enough, you'll die of prostate cancer." So it comes,
no matter what the cause. Take an annual PSA test, and at least you'll know
what to consider doing about it.

[Mike Kanze]

Ed,

Kudos, too, on your five years.

>My urologist told me that "if you are a man, and if you live long enough, you'll die of prostate cancer."

I've heard a parallel thought: "Every man alive will die of prostate cancer unless something else - like old age - kills him first."

--
Mike Kanze

"The greatest threat to our democracy is not from evil or incompetent leaders, but from an electorate with the attention span of a gerbil on crack."

- James Tulip, San Francisco Chronicle (7/25/2007)

"Billzz" > wrote in message ...

"La N" > wrote in message
news:7ibJi.89565$bO6.40689@edtnps89...
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message >
>> (I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
>> determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
>> manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
>> and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
>> anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
>> passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)
>>
>
> Congrats on your five years, Ed!
>
> As for me, I'm 7 years in remission of a rare bone marrow cancer that is
> thought to be caused by, in part, exposure to benzene. Always good to
> read stories of other "survivors".
>
> - nilita

Good going. I'm out of prostate and bladder cancer. When I was diagnosed I
went into the Agent Orange Study. The VA gave me a physical and they send
updates quarterly. The presumptive correlation was made so they could get
vets into VA to do the study. But according to one of the latest updates,
it appears that there is no provable correlation. Heres what they said....

"At the end of the 20 years of follow-up, Ranch Hand pilots and ground crews
as a group exhibited no statistically significant increase in the risk of
cancer. Differences by military occupation were inconsistent. The Ranch Hand
enlisted ground crews, the subgroup with the highest dioxin levels and
presumably the greatest herbicide exposure, had a 14 percent decreased risk
of cancer. These results do not suggest that herbicides or dioxin exposure
are related to cancer in these veterans."

This info does not really help anyone who has cancer, but at least it's one
thing to check off the list. My urologist told me that "if you are a man,
and if you live long enough, you'll die of prostate cancer." So it comes,
no matter what the cause. Take an annual PSA test, and at least you'll know
what to consider doing about it.

[Vince]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
>
> Looks pretty professional and credible. Pretty much anybody who set
> foot in-country is presumptive for Agent Orange as a causative factor
> for some cancers.
>
> (I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
> determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
> manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
> and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
> anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
> passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)
>
> And, that manifested at age 60.
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed, I missed this earlier

First of all, best hope for best outcome

Just a question where did you get treated?

Vince

[WaltBJ]

On Sep 22, 11:43 am, "Billzz" > wrote:
> "La N" > wrote in message
>
> news:7ibJi.89565$bO6.40689@edtnps89...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message >
> >> (I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
> >> determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
> >> manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
> >> and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
> >> anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
> >> passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)
>
> > Congrats on your five years, Ed!
>
> > As for me, I'm 7 years in remission of a rare bone marrow cancer that is
> > thought to be caused by, in part, exposure to benzene. Always good to
> > read stories of other "survivors".
>
> > - nilita
>
> Good going. I'm out of prostate and bladder cancer. When I was diagnosed I
> went into the Agent Orange Study. The VA gave me a physical and they send
> updates quarterly. The presumptive correlation was made so they could get
> vets into VA to do the study. But according to one of the latest updates,
> it appears that there is no provable correlation. Heres what they said....
>
> "At the end of the 20 years of follow-up, Ranch Hand pilots and ground crews
> as a group exhibited no statistically significant increase in the risk of
> cancer. Differences by military occupation were inconsistent. The Ranch Hand
> enlisted ground crews, the subgroup with the highest dioxin levels and
> presumably the greatest herbicide exposure, had a 14 percent decreased risk
> of cancer. These results do not suggest that herbicides or dioxin exposure
> are related to cancer in these veterans."

SNIP:
The above is all very well but one of my old flying comrades has just
died from advanced cancer. Charlie Hubbs was a Ranch Hand pilot. He
was one of the baseline study groups and then - started falling apart.
FWIW four of us from DaNang, all of the same period, all came down
with prostate cancer within three months of each other. Must have been
something about the water . . .After 7800 rads six years ago I'm still
around but life is not the same . . .
Walt BJ

[Billzz]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Sep 22, 11:43 am, "Billzz" > wrote:
>> "La N" > wrote in message
>>
>> news:7ibJi.89565$bO6.40689@edtnps89...
>>
>> > "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message >
>> >> (I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
>> >> determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
>> >> manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
>> >> and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
>> >> anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
>> >> passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)
>>
>> > Congrats on your five years, Ed!
>>
>> > As for me, I'm 7 years in remission of a rare bone marrow cancer that
>> > is
>> > thought to be caused by, in part, exposure to benzene. Always good to
>> > read stories of other "survivors".
>>
>> > - nilita
>>
>> Good going. I'm out of prostate and bladder cancer. When I was
>> diagnosed I
>> went into the Agent Orange Study. The VA gave me a physical and they
>> send
>> updates quarterly. The presumptive correlation was made so they could
>> get
>> vets into VA to do the study. But according to one of the latest
>> updates,
>> it appears that there is no provable correlation. Heres what they
>> said....
>>
>> "At the end of the 20 years of follow-up, Ranch Hand pilots and ground
>> crews
>> as a group exhibited no statistically significant increase in the risk of
>> cancer. Differences by military occupation were inconsistent. The Ranch
>> Hand
>> enlisted ground crews, the subgroup with the highest dioxin levels and
>> presumably the greatest herbicide exposure, had a 14 percent decreased
>> risk
>> of cancer. These results do not suggest that herbicides or dioxin
>> exposure
>> are related to cancer in these veterans."
>
> SNIP:
> The above is all very well but one of my old flying comrades has just
> died from advanced cancer. Charlie Hubbs was a Ranch Hand pilot. He
> was one of the baseline study groups and then - started falling apart.
> FWIW four of us from DaNang, all of the same period, all came down
> with prostate cancer within three months of each other. Must have been
> something about the water . . .After 7800 rads six years ago I'm still
> around but life is not the same . . .
> Walt BJ

I know what you mean since I elected the Radical Prostatectomy. And I said
that the finding does not help anyone who has prostate cancer, only that
they can check Agent Orange off the list. I'm told that the VA will not
take anyone out of VA, because of this. I have two friends who were
ground-pounders, at the same time, and came down with prostate cancer, about
the same time. But then my brother, who was never in Vietnam (only US Army
in Hawaii) also came down with it, and a year earlier than myself. So the
key is to get a PSA test annually. It's more related to age than anything
else. I could go on, with other research, but the bottom line is get a PSA
test. Incidentally, life can be the same but you have to go back to a
urologist - and there are several ways. But the subject is not fit for
USENet discussion.

[redc1c4]

Billzz wrote:
>
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > On Sep 22, 11:43 am, "Billzz" > wrote:
> >> "La N" > wrote in message
> >>
> >> news:7ibJi.89565$bO6.40689@edtnps89...
> >>
> >> > "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message >
> >> >> (I've got a VA evaluation pending right now for Agent Orange
> >> >> determination of squamous cell carcinoma, primary tumor undetermined,
> >> >> manifested in lymph nodes of the neck. Ten and a half hours of surgery
> >> >> and 39 sessions of radiation in 2003--coming up on my five year
> >> >> anniversary in January. And, I wasn't stationed in-country, merely
> >> >> passed through Danang and Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut many times.)
> >>
> >> > Congrats on your five years, Ed!
> >>
> >> > As for me, I'm 7 years in remission of a rare bone marrow cancer that
> >> > is
> >> > thought to be caused by, in part, exposure to benzene. Always good to
> >> > read stories of other "survivors".
> >>
> >> > - nilita
> >>
> >> Good going. I'm out of prostate and bladder cancer. When I was
> >> diagnosed I
> >> went into the Agent Orange Study. The VA gave me a physical and they
> >> send
> >> updates quarterly. The presumptive correlation was made so they could
> >> get
> >> vets into VA to do the study. But according to one of the latest
> >> updates,
> >> it appears that there is no provable correlation. Heres what they
> >> said....
> >>
> >> "At the end of the 20 years of follow-up, Ranch Hand pilots and ground
> >> crews
> >> as a group exhibited no statistically significant increase in the risk of
> >> cancer. Differences by military occupation were inconsistent. The Ranch
> >> Hand
> >> enlisted ground crews, the subgroup with the highest dioxin levels and
> >> presumably the greatest herbicide exposure, had a 14 percent decreased
> >> risk
> >> of cancer. These results do not suggest that herbicides or dioxin
> >> exposure
> >> are related to cancer in these veterans."
> >
> > SNIP:
> > The above is all very well but one of my old flying comrades has just
> > died from advanced cancer. Charlie Hubbs was a Ranch Hand pilot. He
> > was one of the baseline study groups and then - started falling apart.
> > FWIW four of us from DaNang, all of the same period, all came down
> > with prostate cancer within three months of each other. Must have been
> > something about the water . . .After 7800 rads six years ago I'm still
> > around but life is not the same . . .
> > Walt BJ
>
> I know what you mean since I elected the Radical Prostatectomy. And I said
> that the finding does not help anyone who has prostate cancer, only that
> they can check Agent Orange off the list. I'm told that the VA will not
> take anyone out of VA, because of this. I have two friends who were
> ground-pounders, at the same time, and came down with prostate cancer, about
> the same time. But then my brother, who was never in Vietnam (only US Army
> in Hawaii) also came down with it, and a year earlier than myself. So the
> key is to get a PSA test annually. It's more related to age than anything
> else. I could go on, with other research, but the bottom line is get a PSA
> test. Incidentally, life can be the same but you have to go back to a
> urologist - and there are several ways. But the subject is not fit for
> USENet discussion.

family history/genetics has a bit to play in this, similar to breast cancer.

redc1c4,
who takes the finger to get the PSA test: they realize you're serious. %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:06:37 -0700, WaltBJ >
wrote:

>SNIP:
>The above is all very well but one of my old flying comrades has just
>died from advanced cancer. Charlie Hubbs was a Ranch Hand pilot. He
>was one of the baseline study groups and then - started falling apart.
>FWIW four of us from DaNang, all of the same period, all came down
>with prostate cancer within three months of each other. Must have been
>something about the water . . .After 7800 rads six years ago I'm still
>around but life is not the same . . .
>Walt BJ

Saw a great line regarding radiation therapy a while back--"it's the
gift that keeps on giving."

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[Vince]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:06:37 -0700, WaltBJ >
> wrote:
>
>> SNIP:
>> The above is all very well but one of my old flying comrades has just
>> died from advanced cancer. Charlie Hubbs was a Ranch Hand pilot. He
>> was one of the baseline study groups and then - started falling apart.
>> FWIW four of us from DaNang, all of the same period, all came down
>> with prostate cancer within three months of each other. Must have been
>> something about the water . . .After 7800 rads six years ago I'm still
>> around but life is not the same . . .
>> Walt BJ
>
> Saw a great line regarding radiation therapy a while back--"it's the
> gift that keeps on giving."
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

I am trying to figure out if the VA is doing right by veterans in this
area. My wife is a VA physician and I teach agent orange in my class.
I just finished a stint at the National Cancer institute on cancer
screening research

Any comments welcome

Vince

[La N]

"Vince" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:06:37 -0700, WaltBJ >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> SNIP:
>>> The above is all very well but one of my old flying comrades has just
>>> died from advanced cancer. Charlie Hubbs was a Ranch Hand pilot. He
>>> was one of the baseline study groups and then - started falling apart.
>>> FWIW four of us from DaNang, all of the same period, all came down
>>> with prostate cancer within three months of each other. Must have been
>>> something about the water . . .After 7800 rads six years ago I'm still
>>> around but life is not the same . . .
>>> Walt BJ
>>
>> Saw a great line regarding radiation therapy a while back--"it's the
>> gift that keeps on giving."
>>
>> Ed Rasimus
>> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>> "When Thunder Rolled"
>> www.thunderchief.org
>> www.thundertales.blogspot.com
>
> I am trying to figure out if the VA is doing right by veterans in this
> area. My wife is a VA physician and I teach agent orange in my class. I
> just finished a stint at the National Cancer institute on cancer screening
> research
>
> Any comments welcome
>
> Vince
>
>

Well, somewhat interestingly I had a bit of a battle with a rare bone marrow
cancer - myelodysplastic syndrome (the disease that killed author/astronomer
Carl Sagan), and benzene (component of AO) has been implicated in this
disease. Of course, I've never been to Vietnam, but I used to use the
aerosol Raid way too much (I had somewhat of a bug/fly phobia).

- nilita

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:38:51 -0400, Vince > wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>>
>> Saw a great line regarding radiation therapy a while back--"it's the
>> gift that keeps on giving."
>>
>
>I am trying to figure out if the VA is doing right by veterans in this
>area. My wife is a VA physician and I teach agent orange in my class.
> I just finished a stint at the National Cancer institute on cancer
>screening research
>
>Any comments welcome
>
>Vince

Since you asked for comments and you have a VA connection:

I've never received a bit of care from a VA facility. As retired
military I've got TriCare and have found it an excellent health plan,
although not what I was promised when I started my career.

I was advised by a friend that I should get registered in the VA
health care system. I completed the paperwork, but was rejected for
registration. Get that...not rejected for services, but rejected for
simple listing as a qualified veteran!

The reason being that I refuse to complete the full financial
disclosure that they demand. My finances are, frankly, none of their
business.

The priority listing for service in the VA manual says that a retiree
with 10% or more service-connected disability is entitled to priority
three. Financial qualification is required for veterans, not full
career retirees, with no disability to qualify at priority eight.

Frankly, from what I've seen of VA facilities, clientele and staff (no
offense intended to your wife), I'm not sure I would risk VA services.
My surgery was handled at USAF Academy hospital and follow-up
radiation at Memorial Hospital Cancer Center in Colorado Springs.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[Vince]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:38:51 -0400, Vince > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> Ed Rasimus wrote:
>>> Saw a great line regarding radiation therapy a while back--"it's
>>> the gift that keeps on giving."
>>>
>> I am trying to figure out if the VA is doing right by veterans in
>> this area. My wife is a VA physician and I teach agent orange in
>> my class. I just finished a stint at the National Cancer institute
>> on cancer screening research
>>
>> Any comments welcome
>>
>> Vince
>
> Since you asked for comments and you have a VA connection:
>
> I've never received a bit of care from a VA facility. As retired
> military I've got TriCare and have found it an excellent health plan,
> although not what I was promised when I started my career.
>
> I was advised by a friend that I should get registered in the VA
> health care system. I completed the paperwork, but was rejected for
> registration. Get that...not rejected for services, but rejected for
> simple listing as a qualified veteran!
>
> The reason being that I refuse to complete the full financial
> disclosure that they demand. My finances are, frankly, none of their
> business.
>
> The priority listing for service in the VA manual says that a retiree
> with 10% or more service-connected disability is entitled to
> priority three. Financial qualification is required for veterans, not
> full career retirees, with no disability to qualify at priority
> eight.
>
> Frankly, from what I've seen of VA facilities, clientele and staff
> (no offense intended to your wife), I'm not sure I would risk VA
> services. My surgery was handled at USAF Academy hospital and
> follow-up radiation at Memorial Hospital Cancer Center in Colorado
> Springs.
>
> Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Thank you for your reply
I wish you the best

interestingly, the portion of the VA I am personally interested in has
been adopted from the VA by the DOD

DOD to adopt VA medical imaging system BY Bob Brewin
Published on June 15, 2006

WASHINGTON, D.C. –- The Defense Department’s Military Health System
(MHS) has decided to adopt the Department of Veterans Affairs’ medical
imaging system for use in its electronic health care program, said Carl
Hendricks, MHS’ chief information officer, speaking at FCW Events’
Government Health IT conference. Hendricks said the decision represents
an increasing convergence of e-health systems operated by the two
departments, which run the largest health care systems in the country.
It made sense for MHS to adopt a “great VA imaging system,” he said.

Hendricks said MHS wants to use as much code as possible from the VA’s
imaging system, which meets DOD standards. DOD will also work with the
VA to improve the system, he added. Although most medical imaging
systems focus on picture archiving and communications systems designed
to digitize, store and manage X-ray images, Dr. Rob Kolodner, chief
health informatics officer at the Veterans Health Administration, said
the VA’s system does much more.

In addition to X-rays, the Veterans Health Information Systems and
Technology Architecture (VistA) Imaging system stores and manages images
such as retinal scans and exports them to a computerized patient record
system, Kolodner said.

VistA Imaging can also scan and store paper medical records, which
Hendricks said will help DOD import records from non-MHS clinicians who
treat military patients and their families outside DOD hospitals and
clinics.

The VA/DOD Clinical Data Repository/Health Data Repository (CHDR)
enables data exchanges between the departments’ health systems. VA
clinicians can easily tap into CHDR to access data from DOD facilities.

During a demonstration of CHDR at the conference, Kolodner showed how a
VA doctor could import tests performed on an evacuee from Iraq at the
Army’s Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany into the VistA
system, reducing the need for and cost of multiple tests.

The Department of Health and Human Services is pushing for nationwide,
interoperable e-health systems, but CHDR is ahead of efforts in the
civilian sector, Hendricks said. “No one else has done this [e-health
data exchange] with data that is computable,” he said.

http://govhealthit.com/article94918-06-15-06-Web

As to overall care you might like to read

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html


Again best wishes

Vince