What's gonna happen to CAP?

[Jay Honeck]

My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
off.

With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
missions.

CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RST Engineering]

Um, just fyi ... a transponder is a device that receives an interrogation
and issues a reply in response to the interrogation. bip...BONGGGG
bip...BONGGGG

An ELT is a device that broadcasts a "find me" signal without any
interrogation required.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
> off.
>
> With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-09-19 08:15:40 -0700, Jay Honeck > said:

> My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
> The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
> direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
> off.
>
> With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
> far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
> longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
> missions.
>
> CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
> Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
> wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?

You will still need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on
SAR missions. They will just find the object of their search more
quickly.

I suspect that the 406 mhz transponders are still subject to the laws
of physics, too. They can still be destroyed in crashes, have dead
batteries, or end up in canyons or other places where you can't pick up
their signal.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Jay Honeck > posted:

> My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
> The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
> direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
> off.
>
> With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
> far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
> longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
> missions.
>
> CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
> Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
> wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?
>
I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
mission.

The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
the need for S&R? It may reduce the search time somewhat, but it won't do
much to eliminate the rescue operations. Also, unless everything and
everyone stays in one pile, the search operation won't be eliminated,
either. I think the CAP's mission is safe for some time yet, and may not
be negatively impacted by the newer technology.

Neil

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Neil Gould wrote:

> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really
> reduce the need for S&R? It may reduce the search time somewhat, but
> it won't do much to eliminate the rescue operations. Also, unless
> everything and everyone stays in one pile, the search operation won't
> be eliminated, either. I think the CAP's mission is safe for some
> time yet, and may not be negatively impacted by the newer technology.
>
> Neil

I don't know if it is just the Arkansas Wing of CAP or systemic, but twice
in the last 10 years we have had aircraft go down in South Central Arkansas
and after CAP has looked for them for a day or two with their perfect grids
flying at 1000 agl and spoters with no luck one of the pipeline patrol guys
flying alone at about 500 agl would go start looking and find them within 3
to 4 hours.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 19, 8:15 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
> The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
> direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
> off.
>
> With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
> far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
> longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
> missions.
>
> CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
> Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
> wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

The mission is certainly changing. Remember that S&R has always been
only one part of the CAP mission. CAP still has a very active cadet
program and aerospace education. Recently CAP has been doing a lot
more counter drug mission (looking for pot farms, etc) as well as
boarder patrol. The mission is evolving for sure. When I fly with CAP
90% of my missions are ROTC rides for the two local universities.

-Robert

[Newps]

Neil Gould wrote:


>>
>
> I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
> money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
> suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
> mission.
>
> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
> the need for S&R?




Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
ourselves.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Neil Gould wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>
>> I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
>> money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
>> suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
>> mission.
>>
>> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
>> the need for S&R?
>
>
>
>
> Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
> ourselves.

Who is "ourselves"?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 19, 9:57 am, Newps > wrote:
> Neil Gould wrote:
>
> > I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
> > money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
> > suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
> > mission.
>
> > The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
> > the need for S&R?
>
> Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
> ourselves.

Do you also do the Aerospace education and the ROTC training?

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

>With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
>far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
>longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
>missions.
\
First there is NO (zip, nada) mandate for GA to transition to 406 MHz
ELTs. Thus as of today there is almost 100% equippage with 121.5 MHz
ELTs in the GA fleet.

You kid will be having kids before this may be an issue.

Ron Lee

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Ron Lee" wrote:

> ...there is NO (zip, nada) mandate for GA to transition to 406 MHz
> ELTs.

True, but:

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/phaseout.html

If I'm down, I want a satellite to pick up the beacon, pronto.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 19, 12:24 pm, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
> "Ron Lee" wrote:
> > ...there is NO (zip, nada) mandate for GA to transition to 406 MHz
> > ELTs.
>
> True, but:
>
> http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/phaseout.html
>
> If I'm down, I want a satellite to pick up the beacon, pronto.

It remains to be seen how 121.5 signals will be detected if the gov't
stops looking for them. However, from having hunted for ELTs myself
CAP can find them every single time. There is no concern what-so-ever
that the 121.5 isn't specific enough as to location. Yes, you often
have to have aircraft up to narrow down the signal location but we
often hide ELTs around the state and then send training crews up to
find them and I'm not aware of anytime a crew of air and group crews
could not find an ELT located under any rock anywhere in the state.

-Robert

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dan Luke" <> wrote

> True, but:
>
> http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/phaseout.html
>
> If I'm down, I want a satellite to pick up the beacon, pronto.

You, and me both.

In an aircraft crash, there is always a high chance of life-threatening
injuries. The "golden hour" of receiving treatment is never more important
in these cases. The new 406 ELT's may be the difference of getting
treatment started in the "golden hour." **

I would have to say that a new 406 ELT would be on the top of the equipment
list for a new homebuilt, for me, even though the cost is a significant
burden. It is hard for me to put a price on the value of my life, but I'm
certain it is higher than the new ELT's price.
--
Jim in NC


** PS. For those that are unfamiliar with the term, "golden hour" it refers
to the first hour after the life threatening injuries. It has been shown
that people who receive treatment in the first hour have a significantly
higher chance of surviving, than those who do not get treatment in the first
"golden hour."

I believe the term was originated in a TV show about emergency paramedics.
I could be wrong, and the term was already around when the show picked it
up, and made it a common term.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:15:40 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in om>:

>My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
>The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
>direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
>off.

Do you mean Emergency Location Transmitters instead of transponder

>With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
>far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
>longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
>missions.

The can continue to jot down all the N-numbers of aircraft at airports
and report them to the DEA as usual.

>CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
>Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
>wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?

They may get updated radio equipment, and continue doing SAR.

[Dave S]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
> The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
> direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
> off.
>
> With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
> far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
> longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
> missions.
>
> CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
> Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
> wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Without even reading the other responses, I can say authoritatively that
the CAP has many other roles that they do: counter drug surveillance,
fire watch, post-disaster aerial survey, photographic reconnasaince and
"aggressor aircraft" penetration roles.

Also, the 121.5 mhz ELT's are not going away. They are just not going to
be monitored by satellites. If an ELT goes off and a non-satellite
method of detection occurs, the process of tracking it down still gets
initiated. Overflying aircraft and ATC are the most likely sources of
this activation (you DO keep your other radio tuned to monitor 121.5 as
suggested by NOTAM, right?)

I joined my local CAP chapter and was in for about a year. My reasons
for becoming inactive were my time constraints, not anything lacking on
the part of the local squadron. I intend to re-apply when things are
more amenable to my participation. I am still on the mailing list, and
keep up with all the region and squadron event announcements - sorties,
training, etc.

Dave

[Jay Honeck]

> Um, just fyi ... a transponder is a device that receives an interrogation
> and issues a reply in response to the interrogation. bip...BONGGGG
> bip...BONGGGG

Crikey. That'll teach me to post anything on a lazy day off before my
morning coffee...

Thanks for the correction...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
> the need for S&R? It may reduce the search time somewhat, but it won't do
> much to eliminate the rescue operations.

It may be all hype, but I thought the new 406 mhz ELTs were designed
to report your position in Lat/Lon, like a GPS? If that's the case,
the "Search" part of a SAR mission has been entirely eliminated.

I also thought these things were being touted as all-but-eliminating
false signals? Sadly, false alarms made up the vast majority of our
CAP SAR missions, so a huge percentage of CAP SAR will be eliminated
if this feature is truly functional.

Anyway, with no one listening to 121.5, I suspect most pilots will be
switching to 406s when their current batteries die. If everyone
switches, this will be a great enhancement to safety, but it *sounds*
like 90% of CAP's purpose (outside of educational -- which means we're
back to "Boy Scouts Without a Mission") will be eliminated.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:17:24 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>
>It may be all hype, but I thought the new 406 mhz ELTs were designed
>to report your position in Lat/Lon, like a GPS?

Apparently they have the capability to broadcast the GPS information
via an optional interface unit that ties the ELT into the aircraft's
GPS or FMS system.

>If that's the case, the "Search" part of a SAR mission has been entirely
>eliminated.
>
>I also thought these things were being touted as all-but-eliminating
>false signals?

How would that be accomplished? An improved inertia switch???

>Sadly, false alarms made up the vast majority of our
>CAP SAR missions, so a huge percentage of CAP SAR will be eliminated
>if this feature is truly functional.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Expending resources for no valid
reason seems foolish to me.

>Anyway, with no one listening to 121.5,

I'll be listing on 121.5 MHz, and so will a lot of other people. There
are other reasons to do that beside ELTs.

>I suspect most pilots will be
>switching to 406s when their current batteries die.

Given the cost of the 406 MHz equipment, and the cost of installing a
new antenna, and perhaps interfacing to the on-board GPS, I'm not so
sure the cost of replacing 121.5 MHz ELT batteries will be much of an
impetus to switch.

>If everyone
>switches, this will be a great enhancement to safety,

Perhaps.

>but it *sounds*
>like 90% of CAP's purpose (outside of educational -- which means we're
>back to "Boy Scouts Without a Mission") will be eliminated.

CAP does a lot more than SAR and education. See Message-ID:
> above.

Here's an article with information about 406 MHz ELTs:

http://www.aea.net/Pilot/PG04ELT.pdf
P I L O T ’ S G U I D E
In case you hadn't heard, the world of corporate jet opera-tors was
set on its collective ear last year as they rushed to comply with the
FAA's mandate stating that they be equipped with ELTs by January of
2004. It caused quite a problem for operators who waited too long to
do the required installations. The suppliers couldn't keep up with
demand.Don't all aircraft have to be equipped with ELTs you ask? Yes
and no—you gotta' love those FARs. About the easiest way to figure it
out is to say if you're operating under Part 91, you need an ELT. If
you're operating under Parts 121 or 135, you don't need an ELT. Why?
Well, simply, aircraft operated for hire “always” fly under the
watchful eye of ATC so should they have a problem, someone knows where
they are. At least it seemed that way until that fateful day in 1996
when a Lear 35A operating under instrument flight rules “disap-peared”
while on approach to Lebanon Municipal Airport in New Hampshire. The
jet's wreckage was not found until 1999 when a forester discovered it,
17 miles from the airport. The Lear didn't have an ELT. Would it have
made a difference? Who knows. But this chilling occurrence is what got
Congress to take action and change the rules for the ?Jet A burners.'
On the other hand, we “little guys” are free to roam all over the sky,
unfettered and uncon-trolled. Isn't that the beauty of flying your own
airplane? So we are much more prone to be “lost” in the event of an
accident. We need watching.So, for the majority of us, an ELT has been
a part of our air-craft's equipment since way back in 1970. And while
that's the end of one story, it's the beginning of another because a
new mandate clock is ticking. And this time it ticks for you…There’s
change in the air…As an aircraft owner, the new date you have to be
aware of is January 31, 2009—yes, 2009. But it's never too early to
start planning. On that date, all aircraft with ELTs will be required
to be equipped with a digital ELT oper-ating on the 406 megahertz
fre-quency. And this means you. Why? Because that is when the
emergency 121.5 analog frequency will no longer be moni-tored by the
COSPAS-SARSAT search and rescue satellites. The frequency will still
be monitored by ground-based receivers, ATC - 32 -406 MHz
ELTCompliance UpdateB Y D A L E S M I T HPractically everything you’ve
ever wanted to know about 406 MHz ELTs but didn’t know who to
ask.facilities or by over flying air-craft— it's better than nothing,
but it will really limit the likelihood that the distress signal will
be detected in a reasonable length of time.The directive to drop the
pro-cessing of the 121.5 MHz signal was made by the International
COSPAS-SARSAT (Search and Rescue Satellite-Aided Tracking System)
group. It's a cooperative effort between the United States, Canada,
France and Russia, along with 25 other countries to support the
International Maritime Organization (IMO) and International Civil
Aeronautics Organization (ICAO) concerning search and rescue
operations. The group decision was based on a variety of reasons
includ-ing numerous signal reception problems, a high incidence of
false alerts (over 99 percent) and a host of other limitations
associ-ated with the analog-only 121.5 frequency. The satellite-based
COSPAS-SARSAT system and the 406 MHz digital ELTs have already proven
to be far superior to the current analog-based system. Since its
inception in 1982, the system has been credited with saving more than
17,000 lives worldwide and nearly 5,000 people in the United States.
In many of these cases, the satellite network was the only means of
detecting the distress signal.“The satellite network makes the 406
ELTs much more accu-rate than the old units,” explained Wendell
Neumeyer, market-ing manager for Artex Aircraft Supplies, a leading
ELT produc-er. “The location of the satellites and the digital signal
from the ELTs reduces the search area by an order of magnitude or
more.” Think of it as putting a bell on the proverbial needle in a
haystack.Neumeyer said that the dra-matic increase in accuracy is due
to the fact that the software that does the calculations on the 406
beacon is much better than the analog processor. “It's also a full
five-watt digital signal,” he continued. “It's a much clearer signal
so the resolution accuracy is much greater.”“Another benefit of the
406 units is they can be interfaced with the aircraft's FMS or GPS
units,” Neumeyer added. “Now you can use naviga-tion information to
provide spot-on loca-tion of the distress signal. To do that, you need
an optional interface unit that ties the ELT into the aircraft's GPS
or FMS system to provide rescuers real-time, pinpoint aircraft
loca-tion information.In fact, instead of having to search hundreds of
square miles, the digital processing in the standard 406 beacon can
narrow the area down to within two nautical miles radius. And if you
connect the aircraft's GPS or FMS, the area is reduced down to the
size of a football field. An ELT that identifies you by nameAnother
major benefit of the 406 ELTs is that the signal is not only detected
almost instantly by the geostationary satellite network, the digital
signal can be coded with information about the aircraft and owner. By
coding the information, Search and Rescue Coordin-ation Centers can
quickly con-tact the registered owner/opera-tor to verify if the
aircraft is flying - 33 -Continued on following page…or safely tied
down on the ramp. If the aircraft is reported to be fly-ing, it
permits a faster response by the SAR teams. If it's parked, it allows
for the owner to manual-ly deactivate the ELT sooner and allow
valuable resources to be used only on real emergencies. Remember to
register your 406 ELTThere's one more important thing to remember
whenever you do make the switch to a 406 MHz ELT. Whenever you have
your avi-onics shop install the 406 unit in your aircraft, you must
make sure to register its paperwork so that search and rescue can take
full advantage of the benefits the system offers. “Owners need to
register the beacon. If they don't, they're defeating the purpose of
hav-ing the 406 in the first place,” Neumeyer said. “I can tell you
that a substantial number of 406 ELT owners—not airline or fleet
operators—but corporate and business aircraft owners, have not
registered or reportedly not registered their units.”It all ties back
to the 406 unit's ability to be coded with critical information about
the aircraft type, base location, ownership and the like. If you don't
register it, no one can take advantage of the information. “It is
critically important for installation technicians and avionics shop
operators to pro-actively tell their customers that they need to
register these units immediately,” he continued. “We put all kinds of
labels and cards in the packaging with the units, but technicians
and/or the customers don't understand the critical importance of this
step. I guess they think it's just another marketing ploy. But in
truth, it is a critical step in making the 406 ELT an effective
life-saving tool.”2009 is the year of the ELTSo, sometime before
January 2009, you will need to upgrade your current analog 121.5 ELT
to a digital 406 MHz frequency ELT. You can eliminate the chance of
suffering through another compli-ance deadline bottleneck and install
the 406 MHz unit today. Which may not be such a bad option if you are
in need of an ELT repair and plan on keeping your aircraft past 2009.
“For most operators it's a matter of cost versus security,” Neumeyer
explained. “Today, a 406 unit will cost three- to five-times as much
as a standard 121.5 unit. That's substantially more money and it's an
invest-ment that someone who is not planning on keeping their aircraft
for much longer may not want to make.”Why does it cost so much more?
Well, along with the higher cost for the 406 ELT hardware itself,
Neumeyer said that the installation of the unit is more time-consuming
and, therefore, costs more than what you'd have with your old 121.5
system. According to various AEA member shops, installation times can
bvary greatly depend-ing on where the antenna is located. So it's
probably a wise idea to get estimates from your avionics experts to
gauge the market. While we're on the subject of boxes, you will need
to add an interface to use your GPS/FMS positioning information and,
according to Neumeyer, an Artex ELT/NAV Interface box currently sells
for around $1,500 (plus installation and interface cabling). But, if
there's a chance of reduc-ing the time it will take search and rescue
to find you to mere minutes, you'd have to consider that pretty cheap
insurance.And if you're thinking that by waiting the price of the
hardware will go down, don't count on it. As the compliance deadline
approaches and the demand increases, history and business 101 has to
tell you that, if any-thing, the price will keep going up. Sure the
cost can be pro-hibitive, but we're talking about something that you
really can't put a price on—you and your passengers' lives. “When you
weigh the cost against the many benefits, I think the wise operator
will go with the 406 installation well before the compliance
dead-line,” he continued. “It's some-thing you never want to use, but
will be thankful you have if you ever need it.” ¦For more information:
NOAA-SARSAT
Ph: (888) 212-SAVE
Web: www.sarsat.noaa.gov- 34 -406 MHz ELT COMPLIANCE UPDATEContinued
from page 33

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 19, 3:16 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:

> They may get updated radio equipment, and continue doing SAR.

BTW: Our radio equipment already monitors 3 freq one is the 406 today.

-Robert

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
>> the need for S&R? It may reduce the search time somewhat, but it won't do
>> much to eliminate the rescue operations.
>
> It may be all hype, but I thought the new 406 mhz ELTs were designed
> to report your position in Lat/Lon, like a GPS? If that's the case,
> the "Search" part of a SAR mission has been entirely eliminated.

I doubt that. Just look at the search for Steve Fossett - no trace of an
ELT - even the one on his wrist.

>
> I also thought these things were being touted as all-but-eliminating
> false signals? Sadly, false alarms made up the vast majority of our
> CAP SAR missions, so a huge percentage of CAP SAR will be eliminated
> if this feature is truly functional.

Eliminating false alarms won't eliminate the real alarms...

>
> Anyway, with no one listening to 121.5, I suspect most pilots will be
> switching to 406s when their current batteries die. If everyone
> switches, this will be a great enhancement to safety, but it *sounds*
> like 90% of CAP's purpose (outside of educational -- which means we're
> back to "Boy Scouts Without a Mission") will be eliminated.

What about the "no ELT functioning" cases? Those won't get any easier.
(Again, look at what was done for Steve Fossett with no results)

One thing they could do is to add a hi-res digital camera to the aircraft
and do photo-recon while running the search grids. Something like the
MechanicalTurk work that was done for Fossett could easily turn up something
that was missed by the human observer who happened to get distracted or
sneeze at the wrong time...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:38:21 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> On Sep 19, 9:57 am, Newps > wrote:
> > Neil Gould wrote:
> >
> > > I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
> > > money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
> > > suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
> > > mission.
> >
> > > The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
> > > the need for S&R?
> >
> > Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
> > ourselves.
>
> Do you also do the Aerospace education and the ROTC training?

"ROTC"? Wash your mouth out with soap. Back when I was a cadet, we had a
pretty low opinion of the JROTC kids....

Ron Wanttaja, ex-C/Col, CAP

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Anyway, with no one listening to 121.5,

huh? we aren't supposed to monitor 121.5?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Newps]

Matt Barrow wrote:

>>Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
>>ourselves.
>
>
> Who is "ourselves"?


Montana Aeronautics.

[James Sleeman]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> >I also thought these things were being touted as all-but-eliminating
> >false signals?
>
> How would that be accomplished? An improved inertia switch???

I think I see the sematics you were getting at there (false signal vs
unconfirmed situation), but for the record, the 406's are registered
into a database with contact information. So when an activation is
detected somebody can get on the phone and (try to) contact the
registered operator to determing if the aircraft is actually in
trouble.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:16:19 -0000, James Sleeman
> wrote in
. com>:

>
>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> >I also thought these things were being touted as all-but-eliminating
>> >false signals?
>>
>> How would that be accomplished? An improved inertia switch???
>
>I think I see the sematics you were getting at there (false signal vs
>unconfirmed situation), but for the record, the 406's are registered
>into a database with contact information. So when an activation is
>detected somebody can get on the phone and (try to) contact the
>registered operator to determing if the aircraft is actually in
>trouble.

Right. And the satellites are able to pinpoint the location of the
ELT signal an order of magnitude better than the 121.5 MHz ELTs. But
if there isn't some improvement in the triggering mechanism, I fail to
understand how there might be less false alarms; they will remain at
99% of the total ELT signals reported I would think.

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

>> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
>> the need for S&R? It may reduce the search time somewhat, but it won't do
>> much to eliminate the rescue operations.
>
>It may be all hype, but I thought the new 406 mhz ELTs were designed
>to report your position in Lat/Lon, like a GPS? If that's the case,
>the "Search" part of a SAR mission has been entirely eliminated.

Only if GPS-enabled. Look into PLB and you will find those with and
without integral GPS reporting.

>I also thought these things were being touted as all-but-eliminating
>false signals? Sadly, false alarms made up the vast majority of our
>CAP SAR missions, so a huge percentage of CAP SAR will be eliminated
>if this feature is truly functional.

Who knows if false alarms will be reduced. Why do we have so many
with 121.5 MHz ELTs?

Ron Lee

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

"Dan Luke" > wrote:

>"Ron Lee" wrote:
>
>> ...there is NO (zip, nada) mandate for GA to transition to 406 MHz
>> ELTs.
>
>True, but:
>
>http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/phaseout.html
>
>If I'm down, I want a satellite to pick up the beacon, pronto.

I have a GPS equipped 406 MHz PLB that I can activate and is far
better than my ELT (121.5 MHz). Plus I can take it hiking, driving,
boating, etc.

Ron Lee

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 19, 6:41 pm, Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:38:21 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 19, 9:57 am, Newps > wrote:
> > > Neil Gould wrote:
>
> > > > I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
> > > > money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
> > > > suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
> > > > mission.
>
> > > > The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
> > > > the need for S&R?
>
> > > Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
> > > ourselves.
>
> > Do you also do the Aerospace education and the ROTC training?
>
> "ROTC"? Wash your mouth out with soap. Back when I was a cadet, we had a
> pretty low opinion of the JROTC kids....

Not JROTC, ROTC from University of California Davis and California
State University of Sacramento. Some of these guys already have their
commissions.

-Robert

[Dave S]

Larry Dighera wrote:

>
>
> Right. And the satellites are able to pinpoint the location of the
> ELT signal an order of magnitude better than the 121.5 MHz ELTs. But
> if there isn't some improvement in the triggering mechanism, I fail to
> understand how there might be less false alarms; they will remain at
> 99% of the total ELT signals reported I would think.

1) more than a few of the false ELT signals are not from ELTS at all,
but from defective consumer electronics. The frequency migration is
meant to mitigate this somewhat.

2) by being registered, the owner of the device can be contacted or
attempted to be contacted, and this is one of the first steps in the
rescue chain. While search teams are still in the call out and
activation stage, if they get ahold of the owner and he says "no, i just
parked the plane in the hangar, I'm fine!" they can instruct the owner
to go disable/reset his ELT and stop the search process then. Even with
equipment being resold and perhaps not re-registered, this will be a
smaller percentage of devices than having 100% unregistered devices on
121.5.

3) by being stronger, the signals are easier to track. Unfortunately, by
being a burst transmitter, normal carrier wave tracking procedures will
be difficult to implement. The new 406 recievers I've seen sell for 20k.

4) by having location encoded with the signal, "search" becomes "get to
the scene". If off airport this may still require air and ground teams.

Dave

[GeorgeC[_2_]]

Jay,

Are you only thinking about Search part of SAR and not Rescue part? We will
still need the ground teams to go rescue and render aid to the crash victims. We
can still look lost children. There is also Drug enforcement and wild fire
missions. Last year, we put on a lot of hours in on wild fire missions.

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:15:40 -0700, Jay Honeck > wrote:

>My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
>The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
>direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
>off.
>
>With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
>far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
>longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
>missions.
>
>CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
>Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
>wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?

GeorgeC

[GeorgeC[_2_]]

Point of Information.

The new ELT's will also transmit a low powered 121.5 MHz signal. The idea is
that the new ELT's satellite positioning will get you close enough to use 121.5
DF equipment.

You can still use you old ELT. You just won't get satellite monitoring after 1
February 2009.

GeorgeC

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

Dave S > wrote:
>
>3) by being stronger, the signals are easier to track. Unfortunately, by
>being a burst transmitter, normal carrier wave tracking procedures will
>be difficult to implement. The new 406 recievers I've seen sell for 20k.

My 406 MHz PLB also transmits on 121.5 MHz

Ron Lee

[R. Gardner]

UM! Who is we? USAF is the ones who intiate an AC search, never heard they
call anyone but CAP.


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Neil Gould wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>
>> I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
>> money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
>> suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
>> mission.
>>
>> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
>> the need for S&R?
>
>
>
>
> Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
> ourselves.

[R. Gardner]

So you monitor the satalites that recieve the ELT data not USAF? Last I
heard there is still a Montana Wing.


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>>Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
>>>ourselves.
>>
>>
>> Who is "ourselves"?
>
>
> Montana Aeronautics.

[John Clear]

In article >,
R. Gardner > wrote:
>So you monitor the satalites that recieve the ELT data not USAF? Last I
>heard there is still a Montana Wing.

USAF has a list of who to call on a state by state basis. IIRC,
Washington also doesn't use CAP for air search, preferring to do
it themselves.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Newps]

R. Gardner wrote:
> So you monitor the satalites that recieve the ELT data not USAF? Last I
> heard there is still a Montana Wing.

No we don't monitor satellites. The vast majority of ELT reports
received is not by the satellites, never has been. Almost all reports
of ELT's is by other aircraft and stations that monitor 121.5/243.0
constantly, such as we do in the tower. Should a satellite receive an
ELT before we here in Montana find out about it that report is sent to
Salt Lake Center(Seattle Center in the NW corner of the state). They
contact Montana Aeronautics who then begins the search. We are one of a
few states that handle SAR by ourselves, local people do a much better
job of SAR when the organization is properly set up than a national
group who in most cases don't know the terrain like we do. There may be
a Montana Wing of CAP but if so they are invisible. In the 15 years I
have lived here, the last 10 as an aircraft owner going to all sorts of
fly-ins/airshows I haven't even seen them parking airplanes.





>
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>
>>Matt Barrow wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
>>>>ourselves.
>>>
>>>
>>>Who is "ourselves"?
>>
>>
>>Montana Aeronautics.
>
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 20, 4:13 pm, Newps > wrote:
> R. Gardner wrote:
> > So you monitor the satalites that recieve the ELT data not USAF? Last I
> > heard there is still a Montana Wing.
>
> No we don't monitor satellites. The vast majority of ELT reports
> received is not by the satellites, never has been. Almost all reports
> of ELT's is by other aircraft and stations that monitor 121.5/243.0
> constantly, such as we do in the tower. Should a satellite receive an
> ELT before we here in Montana find out about it that report is sent to
> Salt Lake Center(Seattle Center in the NW corner of the state). They
> contact Montana Aeronautics who then begins the search. We are one of a
> few states that handle SAR by ourselves, local people do a much better
> job of SAR when the organization is properly set up than a national
> group who in most cases don't know the terrain like we do. There may be
> a Montana Wing of CAP but if so they are invisible. In the 15 years I
> have lived here, the last 10 as an aircraft owner going to all sorts of
> fly-ins/airshows I haven't even seen them parking airplanes.

In CAP we always have sat triangulation information before we launch.
I assume that the initial report was also sat. In this context I'm not
sure what you mean by a "national organization". Pilots in CAP rarely
are searching more than a couple hundred miles from their home. CAP
planes are located in local GA airports, we don't launch from any
central location.

-Robert

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:


>
> In CAP we always have sat triangulation information before we launch.
> I assume that the initial report was also sat. In this context I'm not
> sure what you mean by a "national organization". Pilots in CAP rarely
> are searching more than a couple hundred miles from their home. CAP
> planes are located in local GA airports, we don't launch from any
> central location.




We are locally run and organized, local being statewide. No silly rules
that I've seen
CAP have. The state is divided up into sectors. Each sector has a
designated boss who gets
the call that a plane is missing. He can be in the air in less than an
hour. Satellite
info not needed/necessary before planes are flying. Other aircraft
brought in as desired/necessary. One problem I have seen with CAP
pilots is they are much less experienced than the guys that do the SAR
here. We get the Wyoming CAP guys up here a couple times a month and
the way they talk on the radio does not inspire confidence. Our guys
flying SAR have multi thousands of hours flying GA airplanes all over
the state and they know the terrain like the back of their hand.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...

> We get the Wyoming CAP guys up here a couple times a month and the way
> they talk on the radio does not inspire confidence.

Oh, THANKS!!
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 20, 5:29 pm, Newps > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> > In CAP we always have sat triangulation information before we launch.
> > I assume that the initial report was also sat. In this context I'm not
> > sure what you mean by a "national organization". Pilots in CAP rarely
> > are searching more than a couple hundred miles from their home. CAP
> > planes are located in local GA airports, we don't launch from any
> > central location.
>
> We are locally run and organized, local being statewide. No silly rules
> that I've seen
> CAP have. The state is divided up into sectors. Each sector has a
> designated boss who gets
> the call that a plane is missing.

Yes, we call these "IC"s in CAP and they coordinate the air and ground
crews.

> He can be in the air in less than an
> hour.

Our goal is similar, we generally try to have crews in the air w/i in
hour of notication unless the information suggests a UDF (ground) crew
would be more effective.

> Satellite
> info not needed/necessary before planes are flying.

Sat info for us is free so we don't turn it down. It allows us to
brief on the location to head towards. Once airborne our onboard
equipment listens for ELTs on 3 different freq (including 406). We
also have onboard VHF radios to communicate with the IC in real time.

> One problem I have seen with CAP
> pilots is they are much less experienced than the guys that do the SAR
> here.

Maybe that is regional. Many of us are CFIs and we even have some
Vietnam era FAC pilots. Many of us are also flying modern G1000
aircraft that also allow photos to be transmitted in real time to
ground crews.

> Our guys
> flying SAR have multi thousands of hours flying GA airplanes all over
> the state and they know the terrain like the back of their hand.

Our pilots are also regional. As you can imagine California has
arguably the most challenging terrain in the U.S. with a combination
of the Sierra's, high deserts and large bodies of water.

-Robert

[R. Gardner]

Robert

It sounds to me to be a regional problem. I deliberately baited him just to
see the response.

He is saying nothing that we in PA do not do routinely in CAP. We all know
our terrain and our pilots as you said are CFI' to ATP's in fact last year I
worked with a WV pilot who was also a former Alaskan bush pilot. Maybe they
are well organized and the local CAP is not, National should be aware of
this and better be making corrections, but then there is a tone that would
indicate there is more of a personal attitude possibly.

Washington State also, well seems to me I've seen something recently about
searches by CAP in WA, guess someone hasn't told them.

Bottom line, As both a CAP member and a former vol. firefighter, you need
all the help you can get when lives are at stake. And to put out this kind
of statement makes me question, are they doing the best they can for the
people they serve. In those mountains if they don't use the help maybe not.
Then again if there is validity to the statements then the CAP members on
here from those states mentioned better ask why and make corrections to
their training we do not need this kind of sentiment.

Ron Gardner
PA CAP


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Sep 20, 5:29 pm, Newps > wrote:
>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>
>> > In CAP we always have sat triangulation information before we launch.
>> > I assume that the initial report was also sat. In this context I'm not
>> > sure what you mean by a "national organization". Pilots in CAP rarely
>> > are searching more than a couple hundred miles from their home. CAP
>> > planes are located in local GA airports, we don't launch from any
>> > central location.
>>
>> We are locally run and organized, local being statewide. No silly rules
>> that I've seen
>> CAP have. The state is divided up into sectors. Each sector has a
>> designated boss who gets
>> the call that a plane is missing.
>
> Yes, we call these "IC"s in CAP and they coordinate the air and ground
> crews.
>
>> He can be in the air in less than an
>> hour.
>
> Our goal is similar, we generally try to have crews in the air w/i in
> hour of notication unless the information suggests a UDF (ground) crew
> would be more effective.
>
>> Satellite
>> info not needed/necessary before planes are flying.
>
> Sat info for us is free so we don't turn it down. It allows us to
> brief on the location to head towards. Once airborne our onboard
> equipment listens for ELTs on 3 different freq (including 406). We
> also have onboard VHF radios to communicate with the IC in real time.
>
>> One problem I have seen with CAP
>> pilots is they are much less experienced than the guys that do the SAR
>> here.
>
> Maybe that is regional. Many of us are CFIs and we even have some
> Vietnam era FAC pilots. Many of us are also flying modern G1000
> aircraft that also allow photos to be transmitted in real time to
> ground crews.
>
>> Our guys
>> flying SAR have multi thousands of hours flying GA airplanes all over
>> the state and they know the terrain like the back of their hand.
>
> Our pilots are also regional. As you can imagine California has
> arguably the most challenging terrain in the U.S. with a combination
> of the Sierra's, high deserts and large bodies of water.
>
> -Robert
>
>

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

While I was in CAP in Washington, the State Aeronautics Commission (SAC) was
the primary contact for Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (AFRCC).
However, unless the area was well populated the SAC turned the actual
execution of the search over to CAP. SAC acted as a dotted line reporting
point for CAP once that happened. For searches in the Seattle basin, the
local PD helicopters were used since these were typically ELTs. For searches
outside the populated areas, CAP carried the ball.

I sounds to me like newps is a bit resentful of CAP based on his comments
about "silly rules" and "nationally administered organization" among others.


--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"John Clear" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> R. Gardner > wrote:
>>So you monitor the satalites that recieve the ELT data not USAF? Last I
>>heard there is still a Montana Wing.
>
> USAF has a list of who to call on a state by state basis. IIRC,
> Washington also doesn't use CAP for air search, preferring to do
> it themselves.
>
> John
> --
> John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/
>

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Actually Bob, there is a state by state agreement between USAF AFRCC and the
State governments. This spells out which organization will be contacted. I
spent a week in the hole back when AFRCC was at Scott AFB. My most vivid
memory was the mission where we were trying to find a helo that could hover
out of ground effect at 13,000 feet and still be within range of our target
location to make a hoist pickup. We worked for a couple of hours on that one
until we found one.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"R. Gardner" > wrote in message
.. .
> UM! Who is we? USAF is the ones who intiate an AC search, never heard
> they call anyone but CAP.
>
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>>
>> Neil Gould wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I was in CAP as a teenager, due to my interests in aviation and lack of
>>> money to pursue it other ways. Although there was too much marching to
>>> suit me, I agree that it is a worthy organization with an important
>>> mission.
>>>
>>> The question at hand is whether the new transponders will really reduce
>>> the need for S&R?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Here in Montana we've reduced the need for CAP to zero. We handle SAR
>> ourselves.
>
>

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Last 4 missions I've been on have not been ELT or missing aircraft, but
dealt with missing persons or homeland security.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

[Dennis Johnson]

"Jim Carter" > wrote in message
...
> Last 4 missions I've been on have not been ELT or missing aircraft, but
> dealt with missing persons or homeland security.

If you can say it without disclosing anything you shouldn't, what sort of
homeland security missions were they?

Just curious,
Dennis

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Interesting, fun, and I hope worthwhile.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Dennis Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Jim Carter" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Last 4 missions I've been on have not been ELT or missing aircraft, but
>> dealt with missing persons or homeland security.
>
> If you can say it without disclosing anything you shouldn't, what sort of
> homeland security missions were they?
>
> Just curious,
> Dennis
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 19, 8:15 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> My son and I were active in Civil Air Patrol a couple of years ago.
> The primary training mission was Search and Rescue, utilizing radio
> direction finders that allowed us to find transponders that were going
> off.
>
> With the impending transition to 406 mhz transponders that will give
> far more accurate location information upon activation, we will no
> longer need fatigue-clad cadets trudging through the woods on SAR
> missions.
>
> CAP is a good organization for kids, basically "Boy Scouts With a
> Mission". Given that Search and Rescue is their primary mission, I
> wonder what's gonna happen to CAP?

Also, its interesting to note that CAP has been doing a fair amount of
406 hunting. It seems that thought these new units provide better data
than the 121.5 they still need to be found. I just got an email a
moment ago concerning a request from the USGC in helping locate a 406
unit that was going off in their area. All CAP aircraft and ground
teams have 406 locating equipment on board.

-Robert

[Jay Honeck]

> Also, its interesting to note that CAP has been doing a fair amount of
> 406 hunting. It seems that thought these new units provide better data
> than the 121.5 they still need to be found. I just got an email a
> moment ago concerning a request from the USGC in helping locate a 406
> unit that was going off in their area. All CAP aircraft and ground
> teams have 406 locating equipment on board.

So much for the claim that the 406's can be located from space, eh?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"