Vertical Card Compasses vs GPS Compass Display

[[email protected]]

How well do the vertical card compasses work and hold up in real world
conditions ( constantly circling, sticking etc) ?

Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
backup) ?

I would welcome replies from those with experience with either or
both.

Stan

[Henryk Birecki]

wrote:

>How well do the vertical card compasses work and hold up in real world
>conditions ( constantly circling, sticking etc) ?
>
>Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
>to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
>backup) ?
>
>I would welcome replies from those with experience with either or
>both.
>
>Stan

Unless the GPS has a magnetic compass sensor, its compass display
gives you direction in which you are moving on the ground, not your
heading. This may or may not be desirable depending on what you want
to do with the information. If you want to get to destination based on
magnetic direction it is fine. If you want to compute winds it is
totally wrong. Converse is true if GPS has magnetic sensor and gives
you it's information. The only problem there is that so far I have not
seen one like that that I would trust.

Cheers,
Henryk Birecki

[toad]

My vertical card compass is terrible, it sticks alot, then spins out.
And it is mounted up on top of my glare hood obstructing vision.

I frankly don't see the need for a compass much in a glider. I keep
orientated using landmarks like mountains (ridges are great),
rivers,lakes highways etc.

The gps is also good for direction in straight flight, but I just use
a digital display, not a compass card display.

Todd Smith
3S

[Bill Daniels]

"toad" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My vertical card compass is terrible, it sticks alot, then spins out.
> And it is mounted up on top of my glare hood obstructing vision.
>

This can be fixed. The rotating card is made of cardboard which warps and
rubs on the instrument glass. I removed the glass and straightened the
cardboard so the compass spins easily.

> I frankly don't see the need for a compass much in a glider. I keep
> orientated using landmarks like mountains (ridges are great),
> rivers,lakes highways etc.
>
> The gps is also good for direction in straight flight, but I just use
> a digital display, not a compass card display.
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S
>

Me too. Thats why my vertical card compass is on a shelf and not in the
glider.

BD

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

wrote:

> Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
> to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
> backup) ?
>
That works for me. I have a Garmin GPS II+ and the bearing page is my
preferred directional display when I'm flying. My compass is tucked away
at the bottom of the panel for emergency use only.

As it sounds like you haven't seen a GPS II+, here's a description. The
bearing page shows a circular disk containing a large arrow that points
at the selected waypoint. Round it is a ring showing the main compass
points. Like a compass card, the ring rotates so heading is always at
the top of the display. For good measure the heading and waypoint
bearing are also shown as three digit numbers.

Some other basic handheld Garmins (12XL, GPS III+, eTrex, GPSMAP 60 and
76) also have this display page.

You may still be able to find the older models (GPS II+, III+, 12XL) on
eBay. Of the current basic handhelds, the GPSMAP series look the best
suited for our use because all controls are on the front next to the
display. The Geko series are too small to be practical while the eTrex
series have their controls on the edges which probably makes a panel
mounted one harder to use.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tom N.]

On Sep 20, 8:09 pm, Bill Zaleski > wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:01:32 +0100, Martin Gregorie
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >> Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
> >> to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
> >> backup) ?
>
> >That works for me. I have a Garmin GPS II+ and the bearing page is my
> >preferred directional display when I'm flying. My compass is tucked away
> >at the bottom of the panel for emergency use only.
>
> >As it sounds like you haven't seen a GPS II+, here's a description. The
> >bearing page shows a circular disk containing a large arrow that points
> >at the selected waypoint. Round it is a ring showing the main compass
> >points. Like a compass card, the ring rotates so heading is always at
> >the top of the display. For good measure the heading and waypoint
> >bearing are also shown as three digit numbers.
>
> >Some other basic handheld Garmins (12XL, GPS III+, eTrex, GPSMAP 60 and
> >76) also have this display page.
>
> >You may still be able to find the older models (GPS II+, III+, 12XL) on
> >eBay. Of the current basic handhelds, the GPSMAP series look the best
> >suited for our use because all controls are on the front next to the
> >display. The Geko series are too small to be practical while the eTrex
> >series have their controls on the edges which probably makes a panel
> >mounted one harder to use.
>
> A GPS can not, and will not display heading. No GPS can do this. The
> most it can do is display track, which is also heading only if there
> is no wind correction. It can not be substituted for a compass.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I love my vertical card compass. It is a PAI-700. I have it mounted
on the bottom of the pedestal where I occasionally look at it. No
problems with sticking. I use it to verify rough heading before my
GPS has a chance to register my track. In some parts of the country
the landscape is monotonous without distinguishing landmarks such as
mountains or ridges. I also believe that a compass is required
equipment for any aircraft - GPS is not a substitute.

Tom Nau

[Bill Daniels]

"Tom N." > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Sep 20, 8:09 pm, Bill Zaleski > wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:01:32 +0100, Martin Gregorie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
>> >> to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
>> >> backup) ?
>>
>> >That works for me. I have a Garmin GPS II+ and the bearing page is my
>> >preferred directional display when I'm flying. My compass is tucked away
>> >at the bottom of the panel for emergency use only.
>>
>> >As it sounds like you haven't seen a GPS II+, here's a description. The
>> >bearing page shows a circular disk containing a large arrow that points
>> >at the selected waypoint. Round it is a ring showing the main compass
>> >points. Like a compass card, the ring rotates so heading is always at
>> >the top of the display. For good measure the heading and waypoint
>> >bearing are also shown as three digit numbers.
>>
>> >Some other basic handheld Garmins (12XL, GPS III+, eTrex, GPSMAP 60 and
>> >76) also have this display page.
>>
>> >You may still be able to find the older models (GPS II+, III+, 12XL) on
>> >eBay. Of the current basic handhelds, the GPSMAP series look the best
>> >suited for our use because all controls are on the front next to the
>> >display. The Geko series are too small to be practical while the eTrex
>> >series have their controls on the edges which probably makes a panel
>> >mounted one harder to use.
>>
>> A GPS can not, and will not display heading. No GPS can do this. The
>> most it can do is display track, which is also heading only if there
>> is no wind correction. It can not be substituted for a compass.- Hide
>> quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I love my vertical card compass. It is a PAI-700. I have it mounted
> on the bottom of the pedestal where I occasionally look at it. No
> problems with sticking. I use it to verify rough heading before my
> GPS has a chance to register my track. In some parts of the country
> the landscape is monotonous without distinguishing landmarks such as
> mountains or ridges. I also believe that a compass is required
> equipment for any aircraft - GPS is not a substitute.
>
> Tom Nau
>

We need an FAR reference.

Does the FAR say that ALL aircraft MUST have a compass? Or does it say that
the aircraft in question must be equipped as shown in the Minimum Equipment
List found in the certification documents and reflected in the POH? I think
it's the later where if the POH doesn't list a compass as required
equipment, you can fly without one. Of course, MOST aircraft POH's do list
a compass - but not all.

Yes it's true that ordinary GPS receivers do not generate and display
compass heading - but some do. These are dual-antenna, carrier-phase
receivers that generate compass heading data referenced to TRUE NORTH. This
heading data is in NMEA format that some glide computers can use to generate
extremely accurate real-time vector wind.

Whether a particular receiver does or does not display compass data, ground
track is far more useful anyway. I care about the direction I'm going much
more than the direction I'm pointing. A long time ago I was given a vector
of 270 degrees magnetic when there was a 50 knot north wind. The resulting
ground track was WSW. The controller grumbled at me until I turned NW to
achieve a ground track of 270. The ATC controllers were much happier with
me when I flew ground track vectors.

Bill Daniels

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 7:37 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Tom N." > wrote in message
>
> ps.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 20, 8:09 pm, Bill Zaleski > wrote:
> >> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:01:32 +0100, Martin Gregorie
>
> >> > wrote:
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
> >> >> to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
> >> >> backup) ?
>
> >> >That works for me. I have a Garmin GPS II+ and the bearing page is my
> >> >preferred directional display when I'm flying. My compass is tucked away
> >> >at the bottom of the panel for emergency use only.
>
> >> >As it sounds like you haven't seen a GPS II+, here's a description. The
> >> >bearing page shows a circular disk containing a large arrow that points
> >> >at the selected waypoint. Round it is a ring showing the main compass
> >> >points. Like a compass card, the ring rotates so heading is always at
> >> >the top of the display. For good measure the heading and waypoint
> >> >bearing are also shown as three digit numbers.
>
> >> >Some other basic handheld Garmins (12XL, GPS III+, eTrex, GPSMAP 60 and
> >> >76) also have this display page.
>
> >> >You may still be able to find the older models (GPS II+, III+, 12XL) on
> >> >eBay. Of the current basic handhelds, the GPSMAP series look the best
> >> >suited for our use because all controls are on the front next to the
> >> >display. The Geko series are too small to be practical while the eTrex
> >> >series have their controls on the edges which probably makes a panel
> >> >mounted one harder to use.
>
> >> A GPS can not, and will not display heading. No GPS can do this. The
> >> most it can do is display track, which is also heading only if there
> >> is no wind correction. It can not be substituted for a compass.- Hide
> >> quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I love my vertical card compass. It is a PAI-700. I have it mounted
> > on the bottom of the pedestal where I occasionally look at it. No
> > problems with sticking. I use it to verify rough heading before my
> > GPS has a chance to register my track. In some parts of the country
> > the landscape is monotonous without distinguishing landmarks such as
> > mountains or ridges. I also believe that a compass is required
> > equipment for any aircraft - GPS is not a substitute.
>
> > Tom Nau
>
> We need an FAR reference.
>
> Does the FAR say that ALL aircraft MUST have a compass? Or does it say that
> the aircraft in question must be equipped as shown in the Minimum Equipment
> List found in the certification documents and reflected in the POH? I think
> it's the later where if the POH doesn't list a compass as required
> equipment, you can fly without one. Of course, MOST aircraft POH's do list
> a compass - but not all.
>
> Yes it's true that ordinary GPS receivers do not generate and display
> compass heading - but some do. These are dual-antenna, carrier-phase
> receivers that generate compass heading data referenced to TRUE NORTH. This
> heading data is in NMEA format that some glide computers can use to generate
> extremely accurate real-time vector wind.
>
> Whether a particular receiver does or does not display compass data, ground
> track is far more useful anyway. I care about the direction I'm going much
> more than the direction I'm pointing. A long time ago I was given a vector
> of 270 degrees magnetic when there was a 50 knot north wind. The resulting
> ground track was WSW. The controller grumbled at me until I turned NW to
> achieve a ground track of 270. The ATC controllers were much happier with
> me when I flew ground track vectors.
>
> Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have to agree. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but when is the
direction that the nose is pointing useful information? My compass
works fine, and is a great source of amusement, but gives me little
useful information, other than helping guesstimate winds by comparing
it to my track.
Jim

[Jose Jimenez]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> We need an FAR reference.

No idea about FAR, but in JAR country, a magnetic compass is required
for motorgliders (self sustainers count, too). No magnetic compass is
required for gliders without a fuel to noise converter.

[Jose Jimenez]

wrote:

> I have to agree. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but when is the
> direction that the nose is pointing useful information?

In motorized IFR flights, ATC may ask for your heading and speed. Based
on that information and their radar plot, they can calculate the wind at
your altitude. This is useful information to them plus they then can
vector you by giving you headings.

Not much useful information in a glider, though, as long as your glide
computer works. If however you suffer a power failure in unknown country
with no distinct landmarks and/or poor visibility, I can tell you that
you will be glad to have that gadget. Dont' ask me why I know.

[Tony Verhulst]

> I have to agree. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but when is the
> direction that the nose is pointing useful information? My compass
> works fine, and is a great source of amusement, but gives me little
> useful information, other than helping guesstimate winds by comparing
> it to my track.

When I fly airplanes, a compass is an incredibly useful tool. When I fly
gliders, it takes up panel space.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[Papa3]

On Sep 21, 12:00 am, wrote:
> On Sep 20, 7:37 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Tom N." > wrote in message
>
> ps.com...
>
> > > On Sep 20, 8:09 pm, Bill Zaleski > wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:01:32 +0100, Martin Gregorie
>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
>
> > >> >> Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
> > >> >> to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
> > >> >> backup) ?
>
> > >> >That works for me. I have a Garmin GPS II+ and the bearing page is my
> > >> >preferred directional display when I'm flying. My compass is tucked away
> > >> >at the bottom of the panel for emergency use only.
>
> > >> >As it sounds like you haven't seen a GPS II+, here's a description. The
> > >> >bearing page shows a circular disk containing a large arrow that points
> > >> >at the selected waypoint. Round it is a ring showing the main compass
> > >> >points. Like a compass card, the ring rotates so heading is always at
> > >> >the top of the display. For good measure the heading and waypoint
> > >> >bearing are also shown as three digit numbers.
>
> > >> >Some other basic handheld Garmins (12XL, GPS III+, eTrex, GPSMAP 60 and
> > >> >76) also have this display page.
>
> > >> >You may still be able to find the older models (GPS II+, III+, 12XL) on
> > >> >eBay. Of the current basic handhelds, the GPSMAP series look the best
> > >> >suited for our use because all controls are on the front next to the
> > >> >display. The Geko series are too small to be practical while the eTrex
> > >> >series have their controls on the edges which probably makes a panel
> > >> >mounted one harder to use.
>
> > >> A GPS can not, and will not display heading. No GPS can do this. The
> > >> most it can do is display track, which is also heading only if there
> > >> is no wind correction. It can not be substituted for a compass.- Hide
> > >> quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I love my vertical card compass. It is a PAI-700. I have it mounted
> > > on the bottom of the pedestal where I occasionally look at it. No
> > > problems with sticking. I use it to verify rough heading before my
> > > GPS has a chance to register my track. In some parts of the country
> > > the landscape is monotonous without distinguishing landmarks such as
> > > mountains or ridges. I also believe that a compass is required
> > > equipment for any aircraft - GPS is not a substitute.
>
> > > Tom Nau
>
> > We need an FAR reference.
>
> > Does the FAR say that ALL aircraft MUST have a compass? Or does it say that
> > the aircraft in question must be equipped as shown in the Minimum Equipment
> > List found in the certification documents and reflected in the POH? I think
> > it's the later where if the POH doesn't list a compass as required
> > equipment, you can fly without one. Of course, MOST aircraft POH's do list
> > a compass - but not all.
>
> > Yes it's true that ordinary GPS receivers do not generate and display
> > compass heading - but some do. These are dual-antenna, carrier-phase
> > receivers that generate compass heading data referenced to TRUE NORTH. This
> > heading data is in NMEA format that some glide computers can use to generate
> > extremely accurate real-time vector wind.
>
> > Whether a particular receiver does or does not display compass data, ground
> > track is far more useful anyway. I care about the direction I'm going much
> > more than the direction I'm pointing. A long time ago I was given a vector
> > of 270 degrees magnetic when there was a 50 knot north wind. The resulting
> > ground track was WSW. The controller grumbled at me until I turned NW to
> > achieve a ground track of 270. The ATC controllers were much happier with
> > me when I flew ground track vectors.
>
> > Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I have to agree. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but when is the
> direction that the nose is pointing useful information? My compass
> works fine, and is a great source of amusement, but gives me little
> useful information, other than helping guesstimate winds by comparing
> it to my track.
> Jim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hey Jim,

It seems to me that about once every year or two, usually on my first
day at an unfamiliar site, my expensive electronic gadgets decide to
take a brief nap. Usually, this occurs just as I'm about to roll
out from a thermal and head to some obscure turnpoint which is "more
or less NW". As I'm opening the apple core window and contemplating
whether or not to chuck the ***** PDA out, I glance at that little
round doohickey up on the glare shield. It provides reassurance
that, yes, I really am headed generally NW and buys a little
relaxation time while I recall various incantations to the God of
Electrons.

P3

[Tom Nau]

On Sep 21, 2:41 am, Jose Jimenez <nospam@please> wrote:
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > We need an FAR reference.
>
> No idea about FAR, but in JAR country, a magnetic compass is required
> for motorgliders (self sustainers count, too). No magnetic compass is
> required for gliders without a fuel to noise converter.

Bill, you are correct. FAR 91.205 requires a compass for powered
aircraft. No mention regarding gliders. FAR 91.213 requires a
compass for gliders only if it was part of the the equipment
prescribed under which the aircraft was type-certificated. However, I
still feel that a compass is very useful.

Tom Nau
JG

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 1:19 pm, wrote:
> How well do the vertical card compasses work and hold up in real world
> conditions ( constantly circling, sticking etc) ?
>
> Some of the GPS's have a compass display. Is that a viable alternative
> to a vertical card compass (still having regular old style compass as
> backup) ?
>
> I would welcome replies from those with experience with either or
> both.
>
> Stan

Thanks for your input. As always, your insights are very valuable.
Stan

[Michael Ash]

wrote:
> I have to agree. Perhaps it's just my ignorance, but when is the
> direction that the nose is pointing useful information? My compass
> works fine, and is a great source of amusement, but gives me little
> useful information, other than helping guesstimate winds by comparing
> it to my track.

I imagine that if you are trying to find landmarks in a strange country,
you'll need your heading. But it'll have to be a pretty fierce wind to
make your course and heading diverge enough to make it hard to substitute
the one for the other in that case.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[[email protected]]

there are no instrument requirements for gliders in the FAR's. So if
you have a type certified glider the only thing that governs you would
be the Handbook or the Type Certificate. For experimental, it
completely depends on your operating limitations that were issued with
your airworthiness certificate. My Cherokee's Op Lims say that I must
be equipped IAW 91.207, so I have a compass. The only reason I have a
compass is to keep the FAA happy. its a normal "whiskey" compass and
bobbles around constantly.

[309]

On Sep 21, 9:39 am, wrote:
> there are no instrument requirements for gliders in the FAR's.

The compass requirement may be found on the Type Certificate Data
Sheet.

14 CFR (aka "FAR") 91.205 (addressing POWERED aircraft...which would
include motorgliders) says that aircraft must have a magnetic
direction indicator.

While it may not spell out "g-l-i-d-e-r", having one to avoid pain
during a ramp check might be worthwhile.

I have PAI-700's in both my glider and power plane. Some times they
work well, some times they're less desirable than the old whiskey
compass (e.g., in a nose high attitude...). On some airplanes, the
vertical card compass is superior (a Bonanza I used to fly comes to
mind). The chief advantage is a good picture of current vs. desired
heading (or heading to a landmark...maybe useful when navigating near
restricted airspace). Be sure to have a compass correction card on
board...I got dinged by the absence of the sheet...fortunately by my
A&P during an annual inspection!

I've never had a compass stop working because the batteries were
dead. Maybe that's why they're required?

-Pete
#309