Ouch!!! Wet rates keep going up!

[[email protected]]

The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
again (second time in a year).

Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
won't be flying much...

I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.

Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
couple of percent one time).

I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
continues...

Dean

[Aluckyguess]

You know, pretty soon we are not going to make anything. What happens then.
We need to outlaw unions and get rid of the minumum wage. I dont know we
need to do something different.
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
> again (second time in a year).
>
> Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
> past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
> making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
> won't be flying much...
>
> I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
> doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
> doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
> in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
> me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
> both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.
>
> Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
> close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
> mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
> few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
> in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
> couple of percent one time).
>
> I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
> continues...
>
> Dean
>

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:29:40 -0700, "Aluckyguess" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
> > close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
> > mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
> > few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
> > in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
> > couple of percent one time).
> >
> > I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
> > continues...
> >
> You know, pretty soon we are not going to make anything. What happens then.
> We need to outlaw unions and get rid of the minumum wage. I dont know we
> need to do something different.

Out of idle curiosity, I have to ask: How is eliminating the minimum wage going
to allow more people to afford to fly?

Ron Wanttaja

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 8:15 pm, wrote:
> The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
> again (second time in a year).
>
> Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
> past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
> making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
> won't be flying much...
>
> I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
> doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
> doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
> in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
> me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
> both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.
>
> Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
> close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
> mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
> few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
> in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
> couple of percent one time).
>
> I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
> continues...
>
> Dean

Many people probably have frozen salaries on the west coast too.
The wave of outsourcing will stop once the cost
of doing business across the globe equalizes. It appears
we are getting there.

One can also view the middle between the coast as places
for big companies to "out source" jobs out of their home
locations.

If Kansas can gather critical mass for aviation, Boise should
make a claim in a specialized tech field. Don't be a dispensable
auxiliary to HP and such.. Oh, yeah, how about making some
better GA gears ? From better instruments to better LSAs that
are like real airplanes :-).

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Ron Wanttaja > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:29:40 -0700, "Aluckyguess" > wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
>> > close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
>> > mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on,
>> > very few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten
>> > raises in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty
>> > small (a couple of percent one time).
>> >
>> > I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this
>> > trend continues...
>> >
>> You know, pretty soon we are not going to make anything. What happens
>> then. We need to outlaw unions and get rid of the minumum wage. I
>> dont know we need to do something different.
>
> Out of idle curiosity, I have to ask: How is eliminating the minimum
> wage going to allow more people to afford to fly?

Well, more employers..

Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 11:33 pm, wrote:
> On Sep 20, 8:15 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
> > again (second time in a year).
>
> > Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
> > past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
> > making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
> > won't be flying much...
>
> > I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
> > doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
> > doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
> > in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
> > me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
> > both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.
>
> > Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
> > close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
> > mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
> > few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
> > in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
> > couple of percent one time).
>
> > I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
> > continues...
>
> > Dean
>
> Many people probably have frozen salaries on the west coast too.
> The wave of outsourcing will stop once the cost
> of doing business across the globe equalizes. It appears
> we are getting there.
>
> One can also view the middle between the coast as places
> for big companies to "out source" jobs out of their home
> locations.
>
> If Kansas can gather critical mass for aviation, Boise should
> make a claim in a specialized tech field. Don't be a dispensable
> auxiliary to HP and such.. Oh, yeah, how about making some
> better GA gears ? From better instruments to better LSAs that
> are like real airplanes :-).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, I have co-founded a company that is making LED lighting for GA
(experimental category initially), but we are still trying to earn
back our initial investment and won't be in the black for many
months. I have hopes that our business will grow to the point that I
can make a living at it, but only time will tell.

In the meantime, it is a real struggle being an engineer in this
economy. I know many engineers that bailed out and took jobs in the
business and financial sector where they aren't using their
engineering skills other than their math and critical thinking. Many
of them are making better money than they did as engineers. I know
some that have gone back to get their MBAs (and the associated
lobotomy) so that they can work in business management careers.

If the trend ever does reverse, there is likely to be a shortage of
engineers with many who left the profession not wanting to come back,
and fewer new grads coming out of college since the job market is so
poor right now.

Oh well, we all have to do the best we can. Maybe we will get lucky
and half of China will die of lead or melamine poisoning.... :-)

Dean

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
> doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
> doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
> in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
> me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
> both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.

The rising cost of insurance is also a big factor in the cost of housing.
Our has increased by some 10X in the last decade. I also have been noticing big
increases in the price of food recently. I don't know how the government
figures that inflation is less than 5%.

Yes, my income is not keeping pace and my flying hours are on the decrease
as a result.

Vaughn

[Road Dog]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
>
> Out of idle curiosity, I have to ask: How is eliminating the minimum wage going
> to allow more people to afford to fly?

The employers will have more money. ;)

[LJ Blodgett]

Do you have a side busines with Mike?

wrote:
> The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
> again (second time in a year).
>
> Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
> past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
> making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
> won't be flying much...
>
> I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
> doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
> doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
> in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
> me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
> both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.
>
> Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
> close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
> mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
> few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
> in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
> couple of percent one time).
>
> I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
> continues...
>
> Dean
>

[[email protected]]

On Sep 21, 11:51 am, LJ Blodgett > wrote:
> Do you have a side busines with Mike?
>
Yes.

[Brian[_1_]]

On Sep 20, 11:33 pm, wrote:
> On Sep 20, 8:15 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
> > again (second time in a year).
>
> > Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
> > past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
> > making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
> > won't be flying much...
>
> > I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
> > doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
> > doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
> > in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
> > me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
> > both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.
>
> > Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
> > close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
> > mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
> > few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
> > in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
> > couple of percent one time).
>
> > I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
> > continues...
>
> > Dean
>
> Many people probably have frozen salaries on the west coast too.
> The wave of outsourcing will stop once the cost
> of doing business across the globe equalizes. It appears
> we are getting there.
>
> One can also view the middle between the coast as places
> for big companies to "out source" jobs out of their home
> locations.
>
> If Kansas can gather critical mass for aviation, Boise should
> make a claim in a specialized tech field. Don't be a dispensable
> auxiliary to HP and such.. Oh, yeah, how about making some
> better GA gears ? From better instruments to better LSAs that
> are like real airplanes :-).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually a few years ago the Boise Valley was producing more aircraft
per year than any other city in the US. We had both Skystar, Avid,
Papa51, Helicycle and Skyraider all producing kit aircraft. Most of
these companies are now gone or seriously downsized.

Brian

[[email protected]]

On Sep 21, 4:50 am, Nomen Nescio > wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From:
>
> >Well, I have co-founded a company that is making LED lighting for GA
> >(experimental category initially), but we are still trying to earn
> >back our initial investment and won't be in the black for many
> >months. I have hopes that our business will grow to the point that I
> >can make a living at it, but only time will tell.
>
> Best of luck!
> The entrepreneur made this country great.
> The entrepreneur can make this country great, again.
> (If the government will get off our backs)
>
> >In the meantime, it is a real struggle being an engineer in this
> >economy. I know many engineers that bailed out and took jobs in the
> >business and financial sector where they aren't using their
> >engineering skills other than their math and critical thinking.
>
> (raising hand)
> BSME
> 10 years in aerospace.
> 10 years owning a machine shop.
> Currently trading equities for a living.
>
> >Many
> >of them are making better money than they did as engineers.
>
> (raising hand, again)
>
> >I know
> >some that have gone back to get their MBAs (and the associated
> >lobotomy) so that they can work in business management careers.
>
> I'd rather have my balls slowly squeezed in a vise.
>
> >If the trend ever does reverse, there is likely to be a shortage of
> >engineers with many who left the profession not wanting to come back,
> >and fewer new grads coming out of college since the job market is so
> >poor right now.
>
> Don't know if I agree.
> A lot of companies around here are desperate for two classes of tech expertise.
> Mechanical Engineers and trained machinists. The latter is becoming as scarce
> as hen's teeth.
> Pay levels are starting to creep up.
>
> >Oh well, we all have to do the best we can. Maybe we will get lucky
> >and half of China will die of lead or melamine poisoning.... :-)
>
> And that would leave how many Chinese? :)
>

About 650 million of them would be left.... but it depends on which
half are gone!

[Ken Finney[_2_]]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
> again (second time in a year).
>
> Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
> past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
> making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
> won't be flying much...
>
> I keep hearing claims that inflation is low, but fuel costs have
> doubled in the past 6 years, and housing prices have also nearly
> doubled (my house is appraising from almost twice what I paid for it
> in 2000), and consequently my property taxes have doubled. Seems to
> me that inflation is running pretty high since energy and housing are
> both pretty big portions of everyday expenses.
>
> Salaries are being held down by offshoring of jobs. We have lost
> close to 5,000 high tech jobs in Boise in the past 2 years alone,
> mostly due to offshoring by Micron and HP. With that going on, very
> few people in the high tech industry in this area have gotten raises
> in the past 5 or 6 years, and if they did, it was pretty small (a
> couple of percent one time).
>
> I don't see how GA is going to attract many new pilots if this trend
> continues...
>

You could look at this like a "rebalancing your portfolio" exercise.
By pulling SOME of the increased equity out of your house and putting it
into a seperate account, you'd have money to pay the extra property tax, and
quite a bit more money to fly. You can get pretty close to 5% on the
account, and if it gets a little too flush because of a lack of flying etc,
you can use the extra to pay down the house.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
RVlust > wrote:

> Yep, let's create two $10k/yr jobs out of every 20k/yr job

oh yeah, let's have twice as many prima donnas and no-shows "working"
in the company.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Vaughn Simon]

"Ken Finney" > wrote in message
. ..
> You could look at this like a "rebalancing your portfolio" exercise.
> By pulling SOME of the increased equity out of your house and putting it
> into a seperate account, you'd have money to pay the extra property tax, and
> quite a bit more money to fly. You can get pretty close to 5% on the
> account, and if it gets a little too flush because of a lack of flying etc,
> you can use the extra to pay down the house.

I can think of very few good reasons to mortgage my home, and "flying money"
is surely not among them. There are hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions)
out there right now who answered that siren call and are now watching their home
equity loans reset to a higher interest after they blew the money.

Vaughn

[Jay Honeck]

> One can also view the middle between the coast as places
> for big companies to "out source" jobs out of their home
> locations.

Not. The outsourcing to India (and other places) continues here too.
We're running <3% unemployment here, which essentially means that
everyone who wants to work is working.

I just spoke yesterday with the HR manager of a Fortune 500 company.
He's a pilot, and a good guy, and he's totally despondent because he
can't find ANYONE to work skilled trades, for ANY amount of money.
We're talking six figure incomes here.

They're now even offering to train people from zero, and he STILL
can't find anyone worth a damn. Sadly, our workforce is chock-full of
lazy, do-nothing, video-game-playing, no-work-ethic, good-for-
nothings, and anyone that IS worth a damn is already employed.

At the hotel, of course, we're at the other end of the scale, looking
for entry-level workers. We're in a college town with 35,000 young
people -- yet Mary and I can't find *anyone*. We can't even get
anyone to APPLY for the jobs, let alone interview. It's scary.

Our latest tactic is to try to hire older, semi-retired folks. They
still remember how to work, and often out-produce their young
counterparts by a factor of 2 to 1. Unfortunately, every employer is
jumping on that bandwagon, and there just aren't that many older folks
willing (or able) to keep working.

Bottom line: There is plenty of work and opportunity in America for
those who are willing to work. The rest have been lobotomized by the
nanny state.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

On Sep 22, 6:41 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > One can also view the middle between the coast as places
> > for big companies to "out source" jobs out of their home
> > locations.
>
> Not. The outsourcing to India (and other places) continues here too.
> We're running <3% unemployment here, which essentially means that
> everyone who wants to work is working.
>
> I just spoke yesterday with the HR manager of a Fortune 500 company.
> He's a pilot, and a good guy, and he's totally despondent because he
> can't find ANYONE to work skilled trades, for ANY amount of money.
> We're talking six figure incomes here.
>
> They're now even offering to train people from zero, and he STILL
> can't find anyone worth a damn. Sadly, our workforce is chock-full of
> lazy, do-nothing, video-game-playing, no-work-ethic, good-for-
> nothings, and anyone that IS worth a damn is already employed.
>
> At the hotel, of course, we're at the other end of the scale, looking
> for entry-level workers. We're in a college town with 35,000 young
> people -- yet Mary and I can't find *anyone*. We can't even get
> anyone to APPLY for the jobs, let alone interview. It's scary.
>
> Our latest tactic is to try to hire older, semi-retired folks. They
> still remember how to work, and often out-produce their young
> counterparts by a factor of 2 to 1. Unfortunately, every employer is
> jumping on that bandwagon, and there just aren't that many older folks
> willing (or able) to keep working.
>
> Bottom line: There is plenty of work and opportunity in America for
> those who are willing to work. The rest have been lobotomized by the
> nanny state.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

I'm not surprised to hear that there are jobs near you because you are
close to Collins and Aerospace is booming right now. Unfortunately,
we don't have any large Aerospace companies in Boise. I know that I
could relocate to Cedar Rapids and have a job anytime I want one there
(a friend of mine is a Director there), but I don't want to move the
family to Iowa.

I'm not sure that I believe the HR guy about 6 figure jobs that he
can't fill though. I have heard that story before, but usually they
have such a specific set of requirements that they screen out a lot of
people that really could do the job. For example, there are lots of
good experienced software types that can't get a job doing .NET unless
they have specific experience with .NET recently on their resume.
Learning a new language like .NET for someone with lots of other
software experience really isn't that tough, but HR guys usually don't
understand that.

Locally there are lots of good experienced engineers here that are
underemployed or working in other fields... I suspect that many of
them don't want to have to pack up and move.

Dean

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
RVlust > wrote:

> > > Yep, let's create two $10k/yr jobs out of every 20k/yr job
> >
> > oh yeah, let's have twice as many prima donnas and no-shows "working"
> > in the company.
>
> In the interest of sticking with the integrity of this sub-topic, let's
> just execute those prima donnas and no-shows. The hell with paying a
> little more for pre-employment screening and quality.

well, it you want to invoke logic, you should have done so before thinking
that a 20,000/yr job would be split into two jobs.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm not surprised to hear that there are jobs near you because you are
> close to Collins and Aerospace is booming right now. Unfortunately,
> we don't have any large Aerospace companies in Boise. I know that I
> could relocate to Cedar Rapids and have a job anytime I want one there
> (a friend of mine is a Director there), but I don't want to move the
> family to Iowa.

Well, I don't know how old your kids are, but this is the best place
to raise a family I've found. Lots of jobs, lots of activities, lots
of culture (due to the University), and almost no crime.

> I'm not sure that I believe the HR guy about 6 figure jobs that he
> can't fill though. I have heard that story before, but usually they
> have such a specific set of requirements that they screen out a lot of
> people that really could do the job.

Possibly. Dunno the specifics, but knowing how stupid big
corporations can be, I'd believe it.

Interestingly enough, I ran into a guy at the bank this morning who
recently took a very nice position at Procter & Gamble (they have a
large plant in Iowa City -- really the only "blue collar" jobs
around), and they are short over 100 line workers right now -- with a
starting pay of $18 per hour!

It's a remarkable economy. Everyone here is dying for workers, wages
are sky-high -- and all I hear about is how "tough" it is out there...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> Well, I don't know how old your kids are, but this is the best place
> to raise a family I've found. Lots of jobs, lots of activities, lots
> of culture (due to the University), and almost no crime.


You didn't look very hard or were trying to stay close to other
relatives. There are dozens of places like that, entire states even
that qualify.

[Ken Finney[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > I'm not surprised to hear that there are jobs near you because you are
> > close to Collins and Aerospace is booming right now. Unfortunately,
> > we don't have any large Aerospace companies in Boise. I know that I
> > could relocate to Cedar Rapids and have a job anytime I want one there
> > (a friend of mine is a Director there), but I don't want to move the
> > family to Iowa.
>
> Well, I don't know how old your kids are, but this is the best place
> to raise a family I've found. Lots of jobs, lots of activities, lots
> of culture (due to the University), and almost no crime.
>
> > I'm not sure that I believe the HR guy about 6 figure jobs that he
> > can't fill though. I have heard that story before, but usually they
> > have such a specific set of requirements that they screen out a lot of
> > people that really could do the job.
>
> Possibly. Dunno the specifics, but knowing how stupid big
> corporations can be, I'd believe it.
>
> Interestingly enough, I ran into a guy at the bank this morning who
> recently took a very nice position at Procter & Gamble (they have a
> large plant in Iowa City -- really the only "blue collar" jobs
> around), and they are short over 100 line workers right now -- with a
> starting pay of $18 per hour!
>
> It's a remarkable economy. Everyone here is dying for workers, wages
> are sky-high -- and all I hear about is how "tough" it is out there...

North of Seattle (lot lower house prices) they are looking for utility
linemen, after 6 months paid training (don't know how much pay) you make
$72K a year. No takers.

[Ken Finney[_2_]]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ken Finney" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > You could look at this like a "rebalancing your portfolio" exercise.
> > By pulling SOME of the increased equity out of your house and putting it
> > into a seperate account, you'd have money to pay the extra property tax,
and
> > quite a bit more money to fly. You can get pretty close to 5% on the
> > account, and if it gets a little too flush because of a lack of flying
etc,
> > you can use the extra to pay down the house.
>
> I can think of very few good reasons to mortgage my home, and "flying
money"
> is surely not among them. There are hundreds of thousands (perhaps
millions)
> out there right now who answered that siren call and are now watching
their home
> equity loans reset to a higher interest after they blew the money.
>

Your life. Just remember, leaving money to your kids screws up their lives!
;^)

And I emphasized "SOME".

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Sep 22, 8:41 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > One can also view the middle between the coast as places
> > for big companies to "out source" jobs out of their home
> > locations.
>
> Not. The outsourcing to India (and other places) continues here too.
> We're running <3% unemployment here, which essentially means that
> everyone who wants to work is working.
>
> I just spoke yesterday with the HR manager of a Fortune 500 company.
> He's a pilot, and a good guy, and he's totally despondent because he
> can't find ANYONE to work skilled trades, for ANY amount of money.
> We're talking six figure incomes here.
>
> They're now even offering to train people from zero, and he STILL
> can't find anyone worth a damn. Sadly, our workforce is chock-full of
> lazy, do-nothing, video-game-playing, no-work-ethic, good-for-
> nothings, and anyone that IS worth a damn is already employed.
>
> At the hotel, of course, we're at the other end of the scale, looking
> for entry-level workers. We're in a college town with 35,000 young
> people -- yet Mary and I can't find *anyone*. We can't even get
> anyone to APPLY for the jobs, let alone interview. It's scary.
>
> Our latest tactic is to try to hire older, semi-retired folks. They
> still remember how to work, and often out-produce their young
> counterparts by a factor of 2 to 1. Unfortunately, every employer is
> jumping on that bandwagon, and there just aren't that many older folks
> willing (or able) to keep working.
>
> Bottom line: There is plenty of work and opportunity in America for
> those who are willing to work. The rest have been lobotomized by the
> nanny state.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

I think you are right on the money. I am in the education field, and
see this phenomenon first hand. We are promoting an educational system
that does not reward hands-on skills and the joy of creating things.
Elec engineering students graduate without ever having seen a
soldering iron; mech engineers graduate never having done any
machining. I once had a "top" elec eng PhD student who, when asked to
install an on/off switch for an equipment, hooked up the live and
neutral wires across the switch. After the whole place went dark with
a bang I figured out what he had done. Many of the "successful"
students have no real interest in the subject except to short-cut the
intermediate steps and become project managers, directors and CEO's
very quickly.

However, this is not to say that the entire generation is unskilled or
unmotivated. Quite the opposite is true. This generation is being
misguided by their mentors and are being taught a poor value system.
The students who are truly motivated and passionate about their work
end up not fitting the mold, get frustrated and leave. I know of a
truly outstanding engineering student who could do almost anything in
the lab, but is having a difficult time winning scholarships or
funding. The evaluation criteria is setup to reward the fast-track
students who can checkoff all the boxes.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote:

> Elec engineering students graduate without ever having seen a
> soldering iron; mech engineers graduate never having done any
> machining. I once had a "top" elec eng PhD student who, when asked to
> install an on/off switch for an equipment, hooked up the live and
> neutral wires across the switch.

Yep.

We hired a Dean's list EE to be a systems designer. After he had been with us
a few weeks, one of the techs asked me, "How can he be an electrical engineer
and not know anything about electricity?"

--
Dan

"The future has actually been here for a while, it's just not readily
available to everyone."
- some guy at MIT

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:

> We hired a Dean's list EE to be a systems designer. After he had been with
> us
> a few weeks, one of the techs asked me, "How can he be an electrical engineer
> and not know anything about electricity?"

hopefully that statement was soon followed by a quick lesson for the EE.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[[email protected]]

>
> Well, I don't know how old your kids are, but this is the best place
> to raise a family I've found. Lots of jobs, lots of activities, lots
> of culture (due to the University), and almost no crime.
>
Hmmm... sounds a lot like Boise.

> Interestingly enough, I ran into a guy at the bank this morning who
> recently took a very nice position at Procter & Gamble (they have a
> large plant in Iowa City -- really the only "blue collar" jobs
> around), and they are short over 100 line workers right now -- with a
> starting pay of $18 per hour!
>
The question is: how many people are willing to pack up and move for
an $18/hour job? Unless the company pays for the move, a lot of
people at that wage level can't afford to move several states away
unless they are young and single...

> It's a remarkable economy. Everyone here is dying for workers, wages
> are sky-high -- and all I hear about is how "tough" it is out there...
> --
In the engineering profession, it is definitely tough. I'm sure that
there are plenty of places with mid-level hourly jobs, but that would
be a pretty big step back for a salaried professional with a technical
degree and 20 years of experience!

Dean

[[email protected]]

>
> We hired a Dean's list EE to be a systems designer. After he had been with us
> a few weeks, one of the techs asked me, "How can he be an electrical engineer
> and not know anything about electricity?"
>
> --
> Dan
>
That's pretty sad... I'm an EE and I pride myself in my soldering
skills. I do most of my prototype builds myself by hand with 0603,
SOT-23, and even SO-8 and SO-16 parts. I have even removed and
replaced 144 pin Quad Flat Pack components successfully.

I have seen my share of "book smart" EE's though, so I know what you
mean. Unfortunately HR usually uses a standard list of criteria to
filter candidates, and they don't have a clue about some of the more
practical skills of the profession. Not until the other engineers get
to interview does that kind of stuff come out, and it only comes out
if the EE's doing the interviewing have a good set of interview
questions/excercises. Often good candidates get screened out long
before they ever get a chance to talk to the interview team... that is
unless they tailor their resume to get through the HR filter.

I get turned off by a lot of job req's that list a very specific set
of skills and experience, especially since often similar experience
and a good head on your shoulders will work just as well as someone
who has been doing the exact work they are looking for.

Dean

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Bob Noel" wrote:

>
> hopefully that statement was soon followed by a quick lesson for the EE.
>

He was encouraged to seek other opportunities.

My fault, though, for assuming a graduate of a respected engineering school
would understand basic electrical circuits. I didn't give him the
pre-employment electrical test.


--
Dan

"You were pretty hard on the Beaver last night, Ward."
-June Cleaver

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

> wrote:

> I have seen my share of "book smart" EE's though, so I know what you
> mean. Unfortunately HR usually uses a standard list of criteria to
> filter candidates, and they don't have a clue about some of the more
> practical skills of the profession.

I blame the engineering schools. IMO, a degreed EE ought to have experience
installing electrical gear and making it work before he graduates, and a new
ME ought to have spent a couple of summers working construction for a
mechanical contractor.

--
Dan

"Don't make me nervous when I'm carryin' a baseball bat."
- Big Joe Turner

[wrxpilot]

On Sep 22, 11:13 pm, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
> > wrote:
> > I have seen my share of "book smart" EE's though, so I know what you
> > mean. Unfortunately HR usually uses a standard list of criteria to
> > filter candidates, and they don't have a clue about some of the more
> > practical skills of the profession.
>
> I blame the engineering schools. IMO, a degreed EE ought to have experience
> installing electrical gear and making it work before he graduates, and a new
> ME ought to have spent a couple of summers working construction for a
> mechanical contractor.
>
> --
> Dan
>
> "Don't make me nervous when I'm carryin' a baseball bat."
> - Big Joe Turner

It's up to the engineering students to make the best of the
situation... I'm a mechanical engineer that graduated in '01 and was
fortunate enough to be involved in the FSAE program for several
years. We were tasked with designing and building a formula style
race car from scratch, including doing almost all of the machining and
welding ourselves. It was an amazing learning experience that really
helped out when we got into the real world. There are other projects
like that out there for enterprising/enthusiastic students, but many
that I saw were too lazy to get involved.

Engineering is a funny profession though - I believe engineers are
vastly underpaid compared to their professional counterparts (lawyers,
medical professionals, etc.). I eventually decided the pay wasn't
good enough to continue doing something that involved sitting in front
of a computer and going to meetings for 9+hrs/day - now I'm a full
time CFI (and soon to be cargo pilot) and love my job. The pay is a
little worse, but not by that much (surprisingly). Will I ever go
back into engineering? Probably not unless I can't pass my medical or
the pay is substantially increased (by at least 2x).

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dan Luke" <> wrote

> I blame the engineering schools. IMO, a degreed EE ought to have
> experience installing electrical gear and making it work before he
> graduates, and a new ME ought to have spent a couple of summers working
> construction for a mechanical contractor.

And an architect should have to build houses, or something for at least a
year.

I couldn't tell you how many house plans I have built that were physically
impossible to build, as they were drawn, and I'm not talking simple typo's
or dimension mistakes, either.
--
Jim in NC

[Mike Isaksen]

"Jay Honeck" wrote ...
> - with a starting pay of $18 per hour!
>

With a typical year containing 2080 hours (for the 40 hr per week employee),
that comes out to a little over $37K of yearly income. That may be enough
for a single person, but the expenses of a family quickly makes that seem
like pretty poor pay.

I don't think we'll see too many future pilots coming out of that pay group.

[Jim Logajan]

Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
> I think you are right on the money. I am in the education field, and
> see this phenomenon first hand. We are promoting an educational system
> that does not reward hands-on skills and the joy of creating things.
> Elec engineering students graduate without ever having seen a
> soldering iron;

Ahem. We used plug-in breadboards and wirewrap in college to wire up
circuits, not soldering irons. As we should have - we were learning
concepts, not necessarily eye-hand skills. In college you are supposed to
experiment with circuits and soldering is an impediment to that goal. And
that was in the physics program at the University of Minnesota. You can't
get a physics degree without taking the required 1 year lab course, 2/3rds
of which was electronics. (The required text was (still is?) Horowitz and
Hill's "The Art of Electronics" which a lot of people consider a classic
text. I know one of the authors used to contribute in the
sci.electronics.design group - not sure if he still does.)

> mech engineers graduate never having done any machining.

While having hands-on experience with machining is nice, it isn't necessary
to doing good design work. Especially when a lot of machined items are now
done with CNC the hands-on experience has less relevance. We all live the
same number of years yet the amount of things to learn keeps growing -
something has to give. For example, machining isn't relevant to much of the
design work they'd do with composite materials, so that is yet another
reason why it is no calamity is mech engineers graduate without machining
experience.

[Bob Noel]

In article <J7nJi.2965$Pc3.2614@trndny09>,
"Mike Isaksen" > wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" wrote ...
> > - with a starting pay of $18 per hour!
> >
>
> With a typical year containing 2080 hours (for the 40 hr per week employee),
> that comes out to a little over $37K of yearly income. That may be enough
> for a single person, but the expenses of a family quickly makes that seem
> like pretty poor pay.
>
> I don't think we'll see too many future pilots coming out of that pay group.

1) That's "starting pay"

2) What's the cost of housing in Iowa City?

3) $18/hr is a lot better than $0!

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:03:54 -0500, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>My fault, though, for assuming a graduate of a respected engineering school
>would understand basic electrical circuits. I didn't give him the
>pre-employment electrical test.

I've noticed that the better candidates often have off-duty interests
related to the job. They're actually excited by the subject.

Examples:

- EE's active in amateur radio or robot wars
- Finish carpenters who build fine furniture or cabinetry at home
- Mechanics who race or restore classic cars, or crew on someone
else's car
- A&P's who actually fly
- Veterinarians who actually have pets
- Music and art teachers who create or perform

[Jay Honeck]

> > - with a starting pay of $18 per hour!
>
> With a typical year containing 2080 hours (for the 40 hr per week employee),
> that comes out to a little over $37K of yearly income. That may be enough
> for a single person, but the expenses of a family quickly makes that seem
> like pretty poor pay.
>
> I don't think we'll see too many future pilots coming out of that pay group.

Dunno where you live, but a husband and wife each earning $37K per
year could quite easily own an airplane in Iowa.

And let's not forget, that company is offering this pay to LINE
WORKERS -- unskilled labor. It's not hard to imagine what a
supervisor in this plant must earn.

My only point was to present an example of how there *are* economic
opportunities for those who are actually willing to work. The
challenge now is finding the workers.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Examples:
>
> - EE's active in amateur radio or robot wars
> - Finish carpenters who build fine furniture or cabinetry at home
> - Mechanics who race or restore classic cars, or crew on someone
> else's car
> - A&P's who actually fly
> - Veterinarians who actually have pets
> - Music and art teachers who create or perform

Great point.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Margy Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
> "Dan Luke" <> wrote
>
>
>>I blame the engineering schools. IMO, a degreed EE ought to have
>>experience installing electrical gear and making it work before he
>>graduates, and a new ME ought to have spent a couple of summers working
>>construction for a mechanical contractor.
>
>
> And an architect should have to build houses, or something for at least a
> year.
>
> I couldn't tell you how many house plans I have built that were physically
> impossible to build, as they were drawn, and I'm not talking simple typo's
> or dimension mistakes, either.
Yeah, my architect once in a while says something like "builders always
say 'yeah, it's simple to DRAW'". In the "new house" we will have these
GREAT planters on pedestals going up to the front door. Looks like I'll
have to make them on site out of hypertufa because if they were cast
concrete they would probably weigh 700 lbs. :-).

Margy

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Jay's absolutely correct about work available for willing workers.

Here in NW Arkansas, Burger King, Wendy's, MickeyD's, etc no longer
advertise their meal specials on their marquees out front of their stores.
Nope, they advertise their 30-day bonuses and starting wages which are well
above minimum. And this is for the segment of society that is either still
in high-school or never finished. Finish high school, get a bit of Juco time
and you're easily looking at $16 to $20 / hour. Got a full 4-year degree in
anything? That should be good for $50K or so. More than a 4-year degree?
You've just entered the single-income world and the spouse can stay home to
raise the children if he or she wishes.

Proven sales ability with large corporate clients? Bring your own truck to
haul your cash home in...

And our cost of living is only slightly above the Dallas metroplex.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Sep 23, 1:55 am, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
> > I think you are right on the money. I am in the education field, and
> > see this phenomenon first hand. We are promoting an educational system
> > that does not reward hands-on skills and the joy of creating things.
> > Elec engineering students graduate without ever having seen a
> > soldering iron;
>
> Ahem. We used plug-in breadboards and wirewrap in college to wire up
> circuits, not soldering irons. As we should have - we were learning
> concepts, not necessarily eye-hand skills. In college you are supposed to
> experiment with circuits and soldering is an impediment to that goal. And
> that was in the physics program at the University of Minnesota. You can't
> get a physics degree without taking the required 1 year lab course, 2/3rds
> of which was electronics. (The required text was (still is?) Horowitz and
> Hill's "The Art of Electronics" which a lot of people consider a classic
> text. I know one of the authors used to contribute in the
> sci.electronics.design group - not sure if he still does.)
>
> > mech engineers graduate never having done any machining.
>
> While having hands-on experience with machining is nice, it isn't necessary
> to doing good design work. Especially when a lot of machined items are now
> done with CNC the hands-on experience has less relevance. We all live the
> same number of years yet the amount of things to learn keeps growing -
> something has to give. For example, machining isn't relevant to much of the
> design work they'd do with composite materials, so that is yet another
> reason why it is no calamity is mech engineers graduate without machining
> experience.

Engineering is a combination of "practice" and "concepts". I have seen
how a lack of hands-on experience can be a big handicap. Many students
turn in designs that are conceptually and mathematically fine, but
impossible to make in real life. That is the result of our
educational system focusing too much on "concepts" and not enough on
"practice". Part of the reason is, the teachers themselves don't have
the practical experience. One could become an engineering professor
without having spent a single day practicing engineering. If you can
demonstrate the concepts on paper, you are good to go. What do you
think they are going to teach their students? But you can't design a
good bicycle if you don't ride a bicycle. You can't design a good
airplane if you don't fly airplanes. All the theory in the world is
not going to help you make a widget if you don't work on widgets. The
Wright brothers built the airplane from their rudimentary bicycle
buiding experience. Their designs were driven by "gut feeling", not by
anaylsis. I don't see how you can develop a gut feeling if you don't
have the hands-on experience. I met a mech PhD student who brought me
a piece of steel block and called it aluminum. He had no "gut feeling"
for how much aluminum weighs compared to steel. It is dificult to
imagine how one could be innovative with such a serious handicap. When
a EE PhD connects the live and neutral wires together, you have to
think that something is seriously wrong. Regarding concepts vs
practice, it has been said that the steam engine did more for
thermodynamics than thermodyanmics did for the steam engine. The same
could be said about aerodynamics and airplanes. There are exceptions.
Einstein did not have much hands-on experience, yet he transformed a
century worth of techology. Wright brothers did not have much
theoretical framework. But most of us are not Einsteins or Wright
brothers. We need a good balance of concepts and practice in order to
make useful things.

[[email protected]]

> Engineering is a funny profession though - I believe engineers are
> vastly underpaid compared to their professional counterparts (lawyers,
> medical professionals, etc.). I eventually decided the pay wasn't
> good enough to continue doing something that involved sitting in front
> of a computer and going to meetings for 9+hrs/day - now I'm a full
> time CFI (and soon to be cargo pilot) and love my job. The pay is a
> little worse, but not by that much (surprisingly). Will I ever go
> back into engineering? Probably not unless I can't pass my medical or
> the pay is substantially increased (by at least 2x).- Hide quoted text -
>

The reason why doctors and lawyers command better pay is simple: they
have mandatory licensing.

If you don't get AMA certified or pass the board you can't work.
Engineering licensing is voluntary and only required if you want to
hang out your own shingle. You don't have to be licensed to work for
a corporation.

Dean

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
>> Engineering is a funny profession though - I believe engineers are
>> vastly underpaid compared to their professional counterparts (lawyers,
>> medical professionals, etc.). I eventually decided the pay wasn't
>> good enough to continue doing something that involved sitting in front
>> of a computer and going to meetings for 9+hrs/day - now I'm a full
>> time CFI (and soon to be cargo pilot) and love my job. The pay is a
>> little worse, but not by that much (surprisingly). Will I ever go
>> back into engineering? Probably not unless I can't pass my medical or
>> the pay is substantially increased (by at least 2x).- Hide quoted text -
>>
>
> The reason why doctors and lawyers command better pay is simple: they
> have mandatory licensing.
>
> If you don't get AMA certified or pass the board you can't work.
> Engineering licensing is voluntary and only required if you want to
> hang out your own shingle. You don't have to be licensed to work for
> a corporation.

Do corporate lawyers have to be licensed? I assume they do, but don't
know for sure.

Matt

[[email protected]]

..
>
> Do corporate lawyers have to be licensed? I assume they do, but don't
> know for sure.
>
Yes, they still have to pass the bar.

[wrxpilot]

On Sep 23, 9:31 pm, wrote:
> > Engineering is a funny profession though - I believe engineers are
> > vastly underpaid compared to their professional counterparts (lawyers,
> > medical professionals, etc.). I eventually decided the pay wasn't
> > good enough to continue doing something that involved sitting in front
> > of a computer and going to meetings for 9+hrs/day - now I'm a full
> > time CFI (and soon to be cargo pilot) and love my job. The pay is a
> > little worse, but not by that much (surprisingly). Will I ever go
> > back into engineering? Probably not unless I can't pass my medical or
> > the pay is substantially increased (by at least 2x).- Hide quoted text -
>
> The reason why doctors and lawyers command better pay is simple: they
> have mandatory licensing.
>
> If you don't get AMA certified or pass the board you can't work.
> Engineering licensing is voluntary and only required if you want to
> hang out your own shingle. You don't have to be licensed to work for
> a corporation.
>
> Dean

True to some extent... But when I was working in the power industry,
it was pretty much expected that you have your EIT/FE and were working
towards your PE (regardless of one being EE, ME, or CE). Civil
engineers are almost always required to have professional licensing in
the form of the PE exam, yet they are typically on the lowest end of
the engineering pay scale.

[Le Chaud Lapin]

On Sep 22, 10:03 pm, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
> "Bob Noel" wrote:
>
> > hopefully that statement was soon followed by a quick lesson for the EE.
>
> He was encouraged to seek other opportunities.
>
> My fault, though, for assuming a graduate of a respected engineering school
> would understand basic electrical circuits. I didn't give him the
> pre-employment electrical test.

Question: There is a job being advertised for $125,000US/year as
software engineer doing kernel-mode programming. How much effort do
you spend testing his technical competence?

Answer: Not a lot.

I went through this experience a while back. A person was being hired
to do kernel-level work. Most of the hiring team had very little
kernel-programming experience. I brought to the interview two exams in
C++ programming and kernel-mode programming, something that I begun to
do about a decade ago to expose a pathology that I am about to
describe.

The interviewer was in his early late 40's or early 50's, and had a
resume that ostensibly made him qualified for the job. On the
interviewing team was:

1. My manager.
2. An engineer who had strong interpersonal ability and knowledge
"packing" ability but very little "wing-it" capability.
3. An older engineer who felt he did not have respect of other groups
in company.
4. An engineer who "worked his way to top", and was highly disinclined
to do anything that would rock the boat.
5. An engineer who was technical lead, and was generally a pleasant
person to be around.

The interview started, and after 30 minutes, it was clear that the
candidate was managing the relationships being formed, in real-time.
The wildcard in the group was #2. He placed a very strong premium on
a candidate's ability to interact well with others. He was the type
of person would does *not* like to be delegated a tasks where he has
to come up with solution on his own, but would rather have meetings,
discussions, etc. The candidate smelt out #2 and rode him, well on
his way to victory.

I pulled out technical exams because I smelled a rat. The exams
offended #2 somewhat, who view me as being rude after it was obvious
that a cordial accord was being formed, and the other engineers did
not see the point of exams since the interview was "going so well".
Since I had only been at company 3 weeks, I withdrew. The candidate
looked me straight in the eye, smirked, and took my (untouched) exams,
and turned them faced down in triumph, then turned back to the rest of
the team.

I sat and listened, how the candidate wormed his way out of every
question thrown at him. I looked around at the other team members
uttering certain things under my breath.

After about an hour, and a couple more times trying to find out of the
guy knew how to engineer, I insisted. I interrrupted one of other
engineers, and said, "Ahem...excuse me...I have an itch that I really
need to scratch...I have these two exams here....and I intend to
administer them...and unless (my boss) objects, I will administer them
right now, and we can discuss afterwards whether it was worth the
effort..." The rest of team could see that I was about to snap, so
they acquiesced.

I asked the questions, 1-by-1. There were a total of 20, 10 C++
questions, 10 kernel-mode questions.

The candidate barely got 2 out of 20 right. A person in his position
should have got 16/20 right. He squirmed the whole time while the
team watched.

After interview was over, we did round-table. When it came my turn to
qualify him as go/no-go, I offered to defer my decision to rest of
team since I had only been there 3 weeks. Simultaneously, 3 of the
other team members snapped and said, "We don't want deferrement, WHAT
do YOU think..", to which I replied, "the same thing I thought when I
was attempting to administer my exam and at the beginning of
interview."

Anyway, the point is that there is a complex dynamic, at least in
software companies with huge amounts of money, where each team member
will not necessarily objectively qualify a candidate because of
perhaps, covert, selfish reasons. In this case, the #2 team member who
was "good with people" could rest more easily knowing subconsciously
that his own position would be boosted by someone who is effectively
technically incompetent, but would cater to the notion that "being
good with people" is an equalizing asset and perhaps more important
than "being able to find the answer." I think the other team members
were just desperate to hire someone and had already decided to hire
anyone who passed a minimum standard, which in their mind, was what
was written on resume, and not what was in the guy's head.

Needless to say, the candidate was denied. The team left the room in
mild state of disgust, realizing that they had been duped and come
very close to hiring a brick for a 6-figure salary.

I think my manager knew what was happening the whole time, and just
wanted to see how everything played out.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

[Jim Logajan]

Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
> You can't design a good airplane if you don't fly airplanes.

R. J. Mitchell had designed quite a few very successful aircraft before
ever getting a piloting certificate.

While you're at it, you might as well assert that you can't design good
rockets if you aren't an astronaut.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Le Chaud Lapin" wrote:

[snip]
> Anyway, the point is that there is a complex dynamic, at least in
> software companies with huge amounts of money, where each team member
> will not necessarily objectively qualify a candidate because of
> perhaps, covert, selfish reasons. In this case, the #2 team member who
> was "good with people" could rest more easily knowing subconsciously
> that his own position would be boosted by someone who is effectively
> technically incompetent, but would cater to the notion that "being
> good with people" is an equalizing asset and perhaps more important
> than "being able to find the answer."
[snip]

Thanks for another story that makes me want to fall on my knees and thank the
gods that I escaped from a giant, high tech corporation.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[[email protected]]

> [snip]
>
> Thanks for another story that makes me want to fall on my knees and thank the
> gods that I escaped from a giant, high tech corporation.
>
> --
> Dan
> T-182T at BFM

Ditto!

Dean

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
>> You can't design a good airplane if you don't fly airplanes.
>
> R. J. Mitchell had designed quite a few very successful aircraft before
> ever getting a piloting certificate.

As did Kelly Johnson, who never got a certificate, but did fly as a
passenger in the military jets to gather data.

[[email protected]]

On 20-Sep-2007, wrote:

> The hourly rate on all of the planes in my flying club just went up
> again (second time in a year).
>
> Archer II's just went up by another $10 per hour. Flying rates in the
> past 6 years have gone up by a factor of 1.6 times yet I am still
> making the same salary I was making in 2001. If this keeps up, I sure
> won't be flying much...



I think others on this group recently established that all you need is a
minimum wage job to be able to afford to own and fly a Piper Pathfinder. You
can even fly it all across the country, covering distances as far as Iowa to
North Carolina! My guess is you make too much, that's why you're finding
rentals too expensive. Give up your current job and get one that pays less
so you can continue flying with no worries. Owning and making minimum wage
is definitely the way to go if someone earning minimum wage can afford a
nice machine like a Pathfinder!
Scott Wilson

[Jay Honeck]

> I think others on this group recently established that all you need is a
> minimum wage job to be able to afford to own and fly a Piper Pathfinder. You
> can even fly it all across the country, covering distances as far as Iowa to
> North Carolina! My guess is you make too much, that's why you're finding
> rentals too expensive. Give up your current job and get one that pays less
> so you can continue flying with no worries. Owning and making minimum wage
> is definitely the way to go if someone earning minimum wage can afford a
> nice machine like a Pathfinder!

As with most people who have never owned and operated a family
business, you forgot the caveat that states: "...And you and your wife
will have to work every waking hour in order to pull it off."

The trade-offs are stark. The rewards are many -- as are the costs.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

> I think others on this group recently established that all you need is a
> minimum wage job to be able to afford to own and fly a Piper Pathfinder. You
> can even fly it all across the country, covering distances as far as Iowa to
> North Carolina! My guess is you make too much, that's why you're finding
> rentals too expensive. Give up your current job and get one that pays less
> so you can continue flying with no worries. Owning and making minimum wage
> is definitely the way to go if someone earning minimum wage can afford a
> nice machine like a Pathfinder!
> Scott Wilson

Doh! I guess you are right. Minimum wage jobs solve all the worlds
problems, and open multiple doors of opportunity! I see the light!

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
>
> As with most people who have never owned and operated a family
> business, you forgot the caveat that states: "...And you and your wife
> will have to work every waking hour in order to pull it off."
>
> The trade-offs are stark. The rewards are many -- as are the costs.


You guys work way too hard for the return. I know you can't help it,
most people in a small business of their own do likewise.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Newps" wrote:

>>
>> As with most people who have never owned and operated a family
>> business, you forgot the caveat that states: "...And you and your wife
>> will have to work every waking hour in order to pull it off."
>>
>> The trade-offs are stark. The rewards are many -- as are the costs.
>
>
> You guys work way too hard for the return.

Mmm...no. Working every waking hour in order to get your own business going
is exhilirating. Plus:

Not having to report to a boss is priceless.

Not having to ask permission to fly on business is priceless.

Driving up every morning to a business you built yourself is priceless.

Betting everything you have on your own abilities and seeing it pay off is
priceless.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[[email protected]]

I'm absolutely admiring Jay and Mary for working as hard as they do, and I
think it's wonderful that they are making a success of their hotel. We've
stayed at the hotel once and thoroughly enjoyed it. We've talked with Jay
and Mary at EAA and think they are wonderful people. I'm quite sure they've
put a lot into their business and continue to do so.
But I still am convinced Jay's saying they've worked for less than minimum
wage is a gross exaggeration. It wouldn't matter to me except that it seems
common for many people to way overestimate the living conditions and
lifestyles of those who truly are making minimum wage, and I think Jay's
claims of poverty exacerbate this. It does a great disservice to those who
really are living in poverty and I find it to be something I can't just
ignore.
So, let's do some math. Jay says Mary hasn't taken a salary at all, but
just for grins and giggles lets include her. Taking Jay at his word that
they work every waking minute, lets see what that would bring them. Two
people working 16 hour days,, six days a week would, at the minimum wage
rate prior to this past July, add up thusly:
16 hours X 6 days per week X $5.15 per hour times two people, equals
$988.80 per week, multiply that times 52 equals $51417.60 per year. If you
divide that by 2080 hours (what one hourly person works in a year, 40 hours
a week) this works out to the equivalent of 24.72 an hour for one person. I
make $23.11 which isn't too far off. In a standard 40 hour week, after 19
percent is taken off the top for my 401k, and after deductions for taxes,
medical and dental insurance, I'm left with $504 a week. Multiplying that
by 52 gives us take-home of $26,208 a year, averaging $2184 a month.

Jay will have to furnish us with his living expenses if he cares to, but I
have no qualms about sharing mine.
We own a 1400 square foot ranch house which we paid $114,000 four years ago.
Our mortgage plus escrow is $1000 per month. We have basic cable only, which
costs us $25 a month. We pay monthly $34 for my wife's cell phone (which
we'd love to cancel but we're locked into a contract), $161 for gas and
electric, $67 for our phone and DSL, an average of $52 for water, $67 for
insurance for my 97 Ford Escort and for my wife Janet's 99 Saturn, and an
average of $606 a month for groceries. Janet also has a student loan out
which cost us $137 a month. Our expenses come to $2149, versus a
straight-time net income of $2184. Who was it that implied I waste too much
money at Starbucks? If you want to know, we don't go there, nor do we spend
money renting videos, going to movies or anything else. We spend some of my
overtime money on going out to eat, maybe twice a month, and take an
occasional day trip in the car, usually someplace local. We buy most of our
clothes at Goodwill and other thrift stores. I'm saving most of my overtime
money toward maybe someday buying an airplane, perhaps a Piper Tomahawk,
assuming Janet can find a full-time job that pays enough that we can afford
the ownership costs. We've got over $14,000 in the bank now. Who was it that
said I should ask Jay how he manages?

Since we don't know if Jay invests 19 percent (other than back into his
hotel) lets add that back in. I'm not so good at math, so let's guesstimate
about $130 a week, which of course would be taxable so I don't know what
the final amount would be, but I'm thinking that's fairly close. So Jay
and Mary would have about $630 a week to pay all their expenses, including
their home, utilities, teenager stuff, and their Piper Pathfinder's
expenses. I don't have any kids at home, and I sure can't afford to own an
airplane. Maybe Jay and Mary's airplane is paid for, as is their house. But
from everything I read about annuals, hangar rents, fuel prices (autogas
included ) and then to read about Jay and Mary's many flying adventures
including hotel stays tells me that his claims of poverty are just plain
exaggeration. I only wish we had the poverty Jay has!
As I said, I greatly admire the courage it took Jay and Mary to buy that
hotel, and I'm totally impressed with all the efforts they've put into it.
I just wish he'd quit claiming poverty, it just isn't so.
Scott Wilson

[Super Dave]

> wrote in message
. net...
> I'm absolutely admiring Jay and Mary for working as hard as they do,
> .......snip.....
> Maybe Jay and Mary's airplane is paid for, as is their house. But
> from everything I read about annuals, hangar rents, fuel prices (autogas
> included ) and then to read about Jay and Mary's many flying adventures
> including hotel stays tells me that his claims of poverty are just plain
> exaggeration. I only wish we had the poverty Jay has!
>

They probably aren’t making a fortune with the hotel. I suspect one thing
which helps Jay and Mary afford their plane is that they probably write
most, if not all, of the cost off as a business expense. This would
include fuel, hanger, trips, etc.

From a business perspective, maybe Jay can gives us tax tips on airplane
expenses.

[[email protected]]

Writing off the expenses may be what they're doing, but another way of
looking at it is putting money they could (should) have taken home from the
business as income into the airplane instead. Nothing wrong with that, but
it of course puts them above the minimum wage. I don't at all begrudge them
their airplane or many wondrous adventures in it. And after spending that
much on the airplane and ploughing so much money back into the hotel it
probably does FEEL like minimum wage or poverty. But there ain't no one
making minimum wage who can afford to fly a private airplane all over the
country.
Scott Wilson

[Morgans[_2_]]

> But there ain't no one
> making minimum wage who can afford to fly a private airplane all over the
> country.

So, do you think we are so dense, that you think you need to keep pointing
it out, again and again?

Give it a rest!

Give us some credit, for not being dense.
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Super Dave wrote:
> > wrote in message
> . net...
>> I'm absolutely admiring Jay and Mary for working as hard as they do,
>> .......snip.....
>> Maybe Jay and Mary's airplane is paid for, as is their house. But
>> from everything I read about annuals, hangar rents, fuel prices (autogas
>> included ) and then to read about Jay and Mary's many flying adventures
>> including hotel stays tells me that his claims of poverty are just plain
>> exaggeration. I only wish we had the poverty Jay has!
>>
>
> They probably aren’t making a fortune with the hotel. I suspect one thing
> which helps Jay and Mary afford their plane is that they probably write
> most, if not all, of the cost off as a business expense. This would
> include fuel, hanger, trips, etc.
>
> From a business perspective, maybe Jay can gives us tax tips on airplane
> expenses.

I don't know what Jay does, but if he's writing off the trips that he
describes here, I think the IRS would be rather disapproving. I'm not a
tax expert, but I have done my own taxes for more than 30 years and am
just starting a business myself. From what I've read, it would not be
legal to write off most of the flying that Jay does and I really doubt
he is writing this off, but I certainly don't know and it isn't any of
our business in any event.

Matt

[RST Engineering]

Spoken like someone who ain't been there, done that, and got the t-shirt.
You ever started a business from scratch, Scott? Been at the phone 24/7?
Worked a 12 hour day and then turned it all around to work an 18 hour day
the next day?

Jay and Mary have been doing it for 8 or 10 years now; Gail and I have been
doing it for 35 years. You wanna come tell us how it is done?

You don't have a clue.

Jim



But there ain't no one
> making minimum wage who can afford to fly a private airplane all over the
> country.
> Scott Wilson

[Jay Honeck]

> You ever started a business from scratch, Scott? Been at the phone 24/7?
> Worked a 12 hour day and then turned it all around to work an 18 hour day
> the next day?
>
> Jay and Mary have been doing it for 8 or 10 years now; Gail and I have been
> doing it for 35 years. You wanna come tell us how it is done?
>
> You don't have a clue.

I wasn't going to dignify this absurd thread with a response, but your
post hit it right on the money.

You are just a bit off on the estimate, however, Jim. This is the
third business I've started from scratch (albeit the first one that
Mary has been involved with) since 1990. This is by far the riskiest
venture, yet, but it's also been the most rewarding. (Although not
financially, just yet.)

People who haven't done this sort of thing simply can't understand the
number of hours that go into such an endeavor -- they've never put all
their chips on red, and spun the wheel. All they remember are the fun
flights I love to write about.

They don't understand what working for free means. What it means to
hang everything out in the wind, balls and all, hoping that the
vultures and bottom feeders don't gnaw 'em off. They don't
understand what it means to risk everything -- EVERYTHING -- on a
dream, nor will they ever understand how that motivates us to do what
it takes to fly.

Whatever the results of Scott's tortured estimates, suffice it to say
that our take-home is absurdly low given the number of hours
invested. Mary and I are the lowest-paid workers in the hotel, on a
per-hour basis -- lower than the newest house-keeper or part-time desk
staff. We do this willingly, however, year after year, because our
goal of creating the ultimate fly-in hotel is nearly complete -- and
we will have done it all without incurring debt.

The tradeoffs have been stark, however. Our home has gone virtually
untouched for five years, as we concentrated our efforts on the hotel
-- and it looks it. Our main car is ten years old; my truck is 12
years old.

Still, we understand that the rewards are coming, with luck. Unless,
of course, a new Embassy Suites opens up next door. Or someone slips
on the stairs, or wrecks our courtesy van, or the economy tanks, or
any of a hundred unpredictable catastrophes befall us. Then, every
minute invested over five, long years will have been for naught.

In the meantime, gents, I'm planning on flying while I still can...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" <> wrote

> In the meantime, gents, I'm planning on flying while I still can...

Rock on! ! ! :-)
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

I never ever said Jay and Mary didn't put a lot of hours, money, sweat and
tears into their business. No, I never started a business from scratch, I
know business isn't a talent I have and I know myself enough to be quite
sure I'd fail in it if I tried. That isn't at all the issue. The issue is
Jay's frequent claims of poverty and working for less than minimum wage.
He's said they take one day off a week; I figured that in. I work with
people on call 24-7. They don't WORK 24-7, nor are they paid for 24-7. Nor
do they expect to be. For that matter during my 10 years in the military I
was considered on-call 24-7, and I sure wasn't paid a whole lot then either.
But I didn't have the chutzpah to think I was paid less than minimum wage.
That isn't the issue. What IS the issue, and what is truly absurd is that
Jay can claim poverty and sub-minimum wage while flying and maintaining
expensive beastie like a Pathfinder, occasionally on quite long distances.
Okay, stick to your claims, and probably a bunch of people making a whole
lot of money above the poverty level who don't have a clue just how tough
it is these days to make it on relatively low pay are going to believe
Jay's bull****. But it's bull****, and believing it doesn't change a
thing.
Scott Wilson

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> That isn't the issue. What IS the issue, and what is truly absurd is that
> Jay can claim poverty and sub-minimum wage while flying and maintaining
> expensive beastie like a Pathfinder, occasionally on quite long distances.

Jay claims "poverty"? Sure, Jay and Mary don't make minimum wage, but
when did Jay claim "poverty"? Given Jay and Mary have a house, two cars,
a pathfinder, and the bought the hotel business "without incurring debt",
I have to assume Jay and Mary started the business with sufficient assets.
Having a house, two cars, and an airplane before buying a hotel isn't my
understanding of the definition of poverty.

btw - a pathfinder isn't noticably more expensive to maintain than a
cherokee 140. Yeah, it has two more cylinders, but so what? The operating
expense can be higher because of the higher fuel burn, but Jay is using
autofuel so he might be paying less than me per hour (and definetly less per
mile) with my 140 and 100LL. I'm willing to bet I've paid way more to maintain
my 140 than Jay has paid to maintain his 235.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Travis Marlatte]

Scott,

We all get your point. We can also take Jay's statements in interpret them
in context. We understand your perspective and can differentiate between the
feeling of poverty and true poverty.

It sounds like you are working hard to make ends meet. I wish you luck and
every break you can get.

But, it's time to let it go.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

> wrote in message
. net...
>I never ever said Jay and Mary didn't put a lot of hours, money, sweat and
> tears into their business. No, I never started a business from scratch, I
> know business isn't a talent I have and I know myself enough to be quite
> sure I'd fail in it if I tried. That isn't at all the issue. The issue is
> Jay's frequent claims of poverty and working for less than minimum wage.
> He's said they take one day off a week; I figured that in. I work with
> people on call 24-7. They don't WORK 24-7, nor are they paid for 24-7. Nor
> do they expect to be. For that matter during my 10 years in the military I
> was considered on-call 24-7, and I sure wasn't paid a whole lot then
> either.
> But I didn't have the chutzpah to think I was paid less than minimum wage.
> That isn't the issue. What IS the issue, and what is truly absurd is that
> Jay can claim poverty and sub-minimum wage while flying and maintaining
> expensive beastie like a Pathfinder, occasionally on quite long
> distances.
> Okay, stick to your claims, and probably a bunch of people making a whole
> lot of money above the poverty level who don't have a clue just how tough
> it is these days to make it on relatively low pay are going to believe
> Jay's bull****. But it's bull****, and believing it doesn't change a
> thing.
> Scott Wilson

[kontiki]

Matt Whiting wrote:

>
> I don't know what Jay does, but if he's writing off the trips that he
> describes here, I think the IRS would be rather disapproving. I'm not a
> tax expert, but I have done my own taxes for more than 30 years and am
> just starting a business myself. From what I've read, it would not be
> legal to write off most of the flying that Jay does and I really doubt
> he is writing this off, but I certainly don't know and it isn't any of
> our business in any event.
>
> Matt

Ouch. Who's side are you on? Owning a small business takes an amazing
amount of effort and dedication. One of the small (and it is small)
rewards is being able to write off some things that you otherwise
would not be able to.

I am no expert (although I have owned and run a business) but it
seems to me that the hotel business would offer a lot of opportunities
to write off travel expenses. I hope Jay is taking advantage of
all of it that he can, versus sending the fruits of his labors
to Washington DC so a bunch of old FARTS can buy votes with it.

[Matt Whiting]

kontiki wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know what Jay does, but if he's writing off the trips that he
>> describes here, I think the IRS would be rather disapproving. I'm not
>> a tax expert, but I have done my own taxes for more than 30 years and
>> am just starting a business myself. From what I've read, it would not
>> be legal to write off most of the flying that Jay does and I really
>> doubt he is writing this off, but I certainly don't know and it isn't
>> any of our business in any event.
>>
>> Matt
>
> Ouch. Who's side are you on? Owning a small business takes an amazing
> amount of effort and dedication. One of the small (and it is small)
> rewards is being able to write off some things that you otherwise
> would not be able to.

I'm not taking sides. I'm just stating my current understanding of the
tax regulations.


> I am no expert (although I have owned and run a business) but it
> seems to me that the hotel business would offer a lot of opportunities
> to write off travel expenses. I hope Jay is taking advantage of
> all of it that he can, versus sending the fruits of his labors
> to Washington DC so a bunch of old FARTS can buy votes with it.

Sure, it does, but not for taking a vacation. If he is carrying guests
for free sightseeing rides, then that seems very legitimate to me.
however, if he is taking a vacation, then that isn't legitimate. I know
some will buy a picture for the wall of their business and then claim
the entire trip was a business expense, but I think that is walking on
thin ice if you are audited.

I'd like to buy an airplane in my new business and write it all off, but
from what I've read and from a discussion recently with a CPA, I don't
think there is a lot I could write off.

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> Okay, stick to your claims, and probably a bunch of people making a whole
> lot of money above the poverty level who don't have a clue just how tough
> it is these days to make it on relatively low pay are going to believe
> Jay's bull****. But it's bull****, and believing it doesn't change a
> thing.

I think what you're missing in this equation is the fact that,
although we're living on slightly-above-poverty wages now, that wasn't
always so. For years before we bought the hotel biz, we were doing
very well -- although I'd bet we were still making a fraction of what
most guys on this group earn. But having a lifetime of accumulated
assets -- a home, cars, trucks, motorcycles, a 401k, other investments
-- prior to buying the hotel gives the impression of wealth.

When you're starting/building a business -- especially one that
requires as much work as this one did -- the cash flow is often enough
to either fix it up OR give yourself a nice living -- but not both.
Too many business owners look at the long hours they're working and
figure they "deserve" that big salary, and either take loans to
improve the business, or simply "make do" with the business they've
got.

Those are the businesses that fail. Most do, you know.

We've opted for the less popular "life of denial" method of business
development, which means doing everything on cash-flow. Thus, we have
no long-term business debt, but our take home wages are at or below
minimum wage.

As for my glorious lifestyle, my last full day off was in July, when I
was sitting on the tarmac in OSH. As I'm writing this it's Sunday
morning, and I'll be working the noon to 8 PM shift -- after I knock
out some paperwork. I worked till 7 PM yesterday (Saturday), too,
after coming in to help Mary with breakfast at 6 AM.

That's something over 21 hours in two days -- how's your weekend
going, Scott?

(And, let's not forget that Mary worked at least that number, too.)

Owning a small business is not all peaches and cream, and most people
wouldn't (couldn't?) live this lifestyle for long. But we do it
willingly because (a) it's fun, and (b) our eyes are on the prize.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 07:10:21 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>As for my glorious lifestyle, my last full day off was in July, when I
>was sitting on the tarmac in OSH.

That day off was the culmination of several days off, wasn't it?

[Montblack]

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
>>As for my glorious lifestyle, my last full day off was in July, when I was
>>sitting on the tarmac in OSH.

> That day off was the culmination of several days off, wasn't it?


Game, set, match - Larry!


Montblack :-)

[Al[_2_]]

I can't stand it anymore!

To quote Bill Murray (from the movie "Meatballs"): "It just doesn't matter!

Oh...sure...I'd like to have a hanger full of airplane like the other
guys at the field....but I don't.

I work just like Jay and have managed to squeeze out a few dollars to be
a 1/4 owner in a 40+ year old Cessna 172

I whine about the high cost of flying, airplane parts, AvGas,
etc....just like the guy who have a hanger full of airplanes. Pilots whine.

Is Jay rich, poor, broke, working to hard or hardly working?

Is just doesn't matter!

Repeat after me: "It just doesn't matter!"

When I'm cruising over the fields, towns, and mountains in my little
airplane, I'm the richest and luckiest guy around...because I can fly.

I got into this mood this mood today when I watched a video with
Harrison Ford that was posted in the "On the Airwaves" site.

http://www.studiowings.com/video/hfjap.html

Sure, he's really rich, has a bunch of planes, and the time to fly them,
but what he said really struck a chord with me.

He said he was really lucky to be able to fly.

Me too.

So...who cares if Jay is working 24/7 or other people don't think he
works 24/7?

"It just doesn't matter!"

- - -
I'll shut up now.

Al
Just a partner in an old plane
But own the sky when I'm flying it.
SFF Spokane, WA

[Jay Honeck]

> >>As for my glorious lifestyle, my last full day off was in July, when I was
> >>sitting on the tarmac in OSH.
> > That day off was the culmination of several days off, wasn't it?
>
> Game, set, match - Larry!

Yep, OSH was our "big vacation" for the year.

All of our other planned trips were cancelled, due to a myriad of
staffing problems at the inn.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So...who cares if Jay is working 24/7 or other people don't think he
> works 24/7?

Precisely -- and well said! Flying is life, whether you're flying a
powered 'chute, or a Pilatus. Everything we do is only a means to
this end -- and in my world, that end is at 4500 feet over the upper
midwest...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Margy Natalie]

wrote:
> Writing off the expenses may be what they're doing, but another way of
> looking at it is putting money they could (should) have taken home from the
> business as income into the airplane instead. Nothing wrong with that, but
> it of course puts them above the minimum wage. I don't at all begrudge them
> their airplane or many wondrous adventures in it. And after spending that
> much on the airplane and ploughing so much money back into the hotel it
> probably does FEEL like minimum wage or poverty. But there ain't no one
> making minimum wage who can afford to fly a private airplane all over the
> country.
> Scott Wilson
Of course they may currently be making minimum wage and living off $$
from selling a previous business or other investments. If you have $$
in the bank to live off you don't really need to make lots of $$ until
the stuff in the bank runs out (and by that time the hotel should be
making $$) :-).

Margy

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
>
> Yep, OSH was our "big vacation" for the year.
>
> All of our other planned trips were cancelled, due to a myriad of
> staffing problems at the inn.



I sure hope you get what you want in the end but this right here is a
deal killer for me. One lousy 5 day vacation at OSH, with constant
worrying that you may have to go back, is my definition of not having a
life. I need most weekends off from mid September thru the end of March
so we can travel with my oldest and his hockey team. I'm going to need
several weeks in the summer off as well to do regular summer vacation
type stuff. To my mind what good is building a business to sell it for
a huge profit when you're in your 50's or god forbid your 60's? Your
kids are grown up and gone and all you've done is go to OSH every year.
I do not live to work. Work is a necessary evil and I can't wait to
be in a position to not have to work. Or if I do work it will be on my
terms.

[Ken Finney[_2_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Yep, OSH was our "big vacation" for the year.
> >
> > All of our other planned trips were cancelled, due to a myriad of
> > staffing problems at the inn.
>
>
>
> I sure hope you get what you want in the end but this right here is a
> deal killer for me. One lousy 5 day vacation at OSH, with constant
> worrying that you may have to go back, is my definition of not having a
> life. I need most weekends off from mid September thru the end of March
> so we can travel with my oldest and his hockey team. I'm going to need
> several weeks in the summer off as well to do regular summer vacation
> type stuff. To my mind what good is building a business to sell it for
> a huge profit when you're in your 50's or god forbid your 60's? Your
> kids are grown up and gone and all you've done is go to OSH every year.
> I do not live to work. Work is a necessary evil and I can't wait to
> be in a position to not have to work. Or if I do work it will be on my
> terms.

The large aerospace company I work for decided usenet was a liability, so
from now on, I'll be using this account to post from.

"50's or god forbid your 60's"??? I've almost got 27 years in, and it
looks like I'll be here another 23+, which will make me at least 71. And I
have 4 rentals, so all my vacation time is used up taking care of them. I
had a two day vacation in 1994, and didn't have another "vacation" until
2004. In those 27 years, I've taken 5 days off in a row once (to clean out
my mother's house when she died), and 3 days off three times, one of them
being after I cut 3 fingers off in a table saw and another to go to OSH in
2004. And I'm not alone, two people I can see from my desk are over 70 and
a half. I wish I could go to OSH every year!

[Montblack]

("Al" wrote)
> To quote Bill Murray (from the movie "Meatballs"): "It just doesn't
> matter!


To quote Bill Murray (from the movie "Ghostbusters"): "Twenty-four hours a
day, seven days a week, no job is too big, no fee is too big!"


Montblack :-)

[[email protected]]

On 30-Sep-2007, Jay Honeck > wrote:

> That's something over 21 hours in two days -- how's your weekend
> going, Scott?

I worked 13 hours this weekend if you must know, and haven't had a day off
in three weeks. It's the end of the fiscal year, and to make our
stockholders happy and make sure the executives get their big bonuses, we
are pushing out as many firetrucks as we can. We've had a bunch of overtime
offered and I volunteer for all I can.
Jay, I never doubted you work a lot of hours and give up having a lot of
free time. I never doubted you aren't getting paid what you're really
worth versus the time you put in. I just say the numbers don't support
your claims of minimum wage.
As we all do at times, you sometimes exaggerate. You very recently said
you spend every waking moment working. If you only put in 21 hours this
weekend, you're slacking, it should have been 32 hours. And I'm writing
that with a smile, I wouldn't expect you to put 32 hours in over two days.
That's simply not realistic.
Someone else in this thread wrote that it just doesn't matter. If people
see your claims of minimum wage as just so much exaggeration while
recognizing you really are underpaid for all the hours, sweat and worries
you put in, I'd agree. I do hope people here, especially those making a
very healthy income, have a thought toward just how difficult it is for
those making minimum wage to survive in this world. As tight as it is for
us with me making $23 an hour plus mucho overtime, and my wife working
part-time for $9 an hour, I can't imagine how people making even twice
minimum wage can get by. Okay, I'm willing to drop this thread and move on
to other things. Best of luck with your hotel, and I do hope we someday
have the chance to stay there again.
Tschuss!
Scott Wilson

[Jay Honeck]

> > Yep, OSH was our "big vacation" for the year.
>
> > All of our other planned trips were cancelled, due to a myriad of
> > staffing problems at the inn.
>
> I sure hope you get what you want in the end but this right here is a
> deal killer for me. One lousy 5 day vacation at OSH, with constant
> worrying that you may have to go back, is my definition of not having a
> life.

Luckily, this has been extraordinarily rare. In fact, this is the
first time since we opened in '02 that we've been unable to find and
keep staff.

The economy is so hot around here, no one can keep anyone. HELP
WANTED signs are in every window, Procter & Gamble has over 100 line
jobs open (starting pay: $18/hour), and there even seem to be fewer
beggars at the stop lights.

Since we returned from OSH, I've done nothing but recruit, hire,
train...and fire. Or, they didn't show up at all. The caliber of
people looking for entry-level work right now is truly appalling, but
we're slowly rebuilding our staff to the point where we can roam the
skies again.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> "50's or god forbid your 60's"??? I've almost got 27 years in, and it
> looks like I'll be here another 23+, which will make me at least 71.

Don't forget, Newps exists in the fantasyland called "Gummint", where
work is optional and brief. Retirement in your 50s -- despite huge
advances in lifespan -- is common, and gummint jobs come with all
sorts of "guarantees" that make you virtually "employed forever",
regardless of performance.

As for working forever, if you're doing what you love, why quit?
Remember, my long hours are spent in a place I have largely created,
interacting with guests from all over the world. It is intensely fun,
and very rewarding, interpersonally.

This coming weekend is a great example of what I'm talking about.
We're hosting an aircraft type fly-in, a reunion of a local rock group
from the 1960s, and an Eagles Club function. We're 100% booked, with
a waiting list for cancellations, and all three groups are going to be
a lot of fun. (Especially the fly-in, of course!)

I've met very few men that have lived very long after they retired.
My German ancestors nailed it when they coined the phrase: "Work makes
life sweet" -- and if you disagree with that statement, you're in the
wrong line of work.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> If you only put in 21 hours this
> weekend, you're slacking, it should have been 32 hours. And I'm writing
> that with a smile

Did I mention I dreamed about the hotel, too?

Funny as that sounds, it's true. But I can't claim that as actual
"work time", I suppose...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote
> Yep, OSH was our "big vacation" for the year.
>
> All of our other planned trips were cancelled, due to a myriad of
> staffing problems at the inn.

Jay, you should have forgot about having the Inn, and gotten a minnimum wage
job; at least you could take vacation whenever you wanted to! <g> (ducking
and running)
--
Jim in NC

[Jon Woellhaf]

Jay Honeck wrote
> ... my last full day off was in July, when I was sitting on the tarmac in
> OSH.

Tarmac? Where is the tarmac at Oshkosh? <g>

[kontiki]

Margy Natalie wrote:

> Of course they may currently be making minimum wage and living off $$
> from selling a previous business or other investments. If you have $$
> in the bank to live off you don't really need to make lots of $$ until
> the stuff in the bank runs out (and by that time the hotel should be
> making $$) :-).

Or you die ... so who cares as long as you are happy while you are alive.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>"50's or god forbid your 60's"??? I've almost got 27 years in, and it
>>looks like I'll be here another 23+, which will make me at least 71.
>
>
> Don't forget, Newps exists in the fantasyland called "Gummint", where
> work is optional and brief. Retirement in your 50s -- despite huge
> advances in lifespan -- is common, and gummint jobs come with all
> sorts of "guarantees" that make you virtually "employed forever",
> regardless of performance.



Not government work, just any career that doesn't involve running your
own business. My three brothers are all working the corporate
lifestyle. We all plan on checking out in our 50's.




>
> I've met very few men that have lived very long after they retired.
> My German ancestors nailed it when they coined the phrase: "Work makes
> life sweet" -- and if you disagree with that statement, you're in the
> wrong line of work.


I disagree. You make your own life sweet by your attitude. Work puts
the plane in the air. I like what I do but if you consider your line of
work as recreation it's no wonder those type of people die right after
retiring. Work is a necessary evil, it prevents me from doing what I'd
really rather be doing, stuff that you don't get paid for.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Newps" wrote:

>> Don't forget, Newps exists in the fantasyland called "Gummint", where
>> work is optional and brief. Retirement in your 50s -- despite huge
>> advances in lifespan -- is common, and gummint jobs come with all
>> sorts of "guarantees" that make you virtually "employed forever",
>> regardless of performance.
>
>
>
> Not government work, just any career that doesn't involve running your own
> business. My three brothers are all working the corporate lifestyle. We
> all plan on checking out in our 50's.


My buddy George worked his way well up in a corporation and was planning on
retiring at 60. At 50, his group was spun off, sold and bankrupted by the new
owner corp. In less than three years he went from a man with a solid
retirement strategy to a guy with a gutted pension, no job, no health
insurance and two kids in college.

Only Federal government workers and people with plenty of money have any
security anymore. Benefits are shrinking for employees everywhere except the
Federal government. This trend will accelerate as globalism increasingly
pervades the U. S. and European economies.

You're working in a dream world, Newps.

>>
>> I've met very few men that have lived very long after they retired.
>> My German ancestors nailed it when they coined the phrase: "Work makes
>> life sweet" -- and if you disagree with that statement, you're in the
>> wrong line of work.
>
>
> I disagree. You make your own life sweet by your attitude. Work puts the
> plane in the air. I like what I do but if you consider your line of work as
> recreation it's no wonder those type of people die right after retiring.
> Work is a necessary evil, it prevents me from doing what I'd really rather
> be doing, stuff that you don't get paid for.

But Jay is right about your situation. It is unimaginable for most people who
work outside the Federal government.

--
Dan

"Sanity is not to be without fantasy, but to know reality, and remember the
difference."
- Clive James

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
>
> Did I mention I dreamed about the hotel, too?

Hah!

I dream about the business, too. I consider this *highly* unfair. I mean,
gimme a break; how about some "Mile High Club" dreams? I need the recreation!

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Newps]

Dan Luke wrote:


>
> But Jay is right about your situation. It is unimaginable for most people who
> work outside the Federal government.


No, he's not right. It's quite easy to get terminated from the FAA due
to performance issues. Right now, as an example, only 8% of new hires
are making the cut at Denver Tower. 92% of these people are losing
their jobs, as in termination, after 1-3 years of government service. I
have not heard numbers from other places but even if it were much better
that's still a lot of people looking for work.

[Margy Natalie]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Newps" wrote:
>
>
>>>Don't forget, Newps exists in the fantasyland called "Gummint", where
>>>work is optional and brief. Retirement in your 50s -- despite huge
>>>advances in lifespan -- is common, and gummint jobs come with all
>>>sorts of "guarantees" that make you virtually "employed forever",
>>>regardless of performance.
>>
>>
>>
>>Not government work, just any career that doesn't involve running your own
>>business. My three brothers are all working the corporate lifestyle. We
>>all plan on checking out in our 50's.
>
>
>
> My buddy George worked his way well up in a corporation and was planning on
> retiring at 60. At 50, his group was spun off, sold and bankrupted by the new
> owner corp. In less than three years he went from a man with a solid
> retirement strategy to a guy with a gutted pension, no job, no health
> insurance and two kids in college.
>
> Only Federal government workers and people with plenty of money have any
> security anymore. Benefits are shrinking for employees everywhere except the
> Federal government. This trend will accelerate as globalism increasingly
> pervades the U. S. and European economies.
>
> You're working in a dream world, Newps.
>
>
>>>I've met very few men that have lived very long after they retired.
>>>My German ancestors nailed it when they coined the phrase: "Work makes
>>>life sweet" -- and if you disagree with that statement, you're in the
>>>wrong line of work.
>>
>>
>>I disagree. You make your own life sweet by your attitude. Work puts the
>>plane in the air. I like what I do but if you consider your line of work as
>>recreation it's no wonder those type of people die right after retiring.
>>Work is a necessary evil, it prevents me from doing what I'd really rather
>>be doing, stuff that you don't get paid for.
>
>
> But Jay is right about your situation. It is unimaginable for most people who
> work outside the Federal government.
>
And ... That's on the OLD government pension plan, not the new one :-).

Margy

[Newps]

Margy Natalie wrote:

>>
> And ... That's on the OLD government pension plan, not the new one :-).




I prefer the new one. The old one was a pension only, the new one has a
much smaller pension but includes a 401k.

[Margy Natalie]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Margy Natalie wrote:
>
>>>
>> And ... That's on the OLD government pension plan, not the new one :-).
>
>
>
>
>
> I prefer the new one. The old one was a pension only, the new one has a
> much smaller pension but includes a 401k.
I didn't know the old one you couldn't 401K, and the 401K is what you
put into it, not what the feds put into it. I won't work for the
government long enough for it to make a difference :-).

[Newps]

Margy Natalie wrote:


>>
>> I prefer the new one. The old one was a pension only, the new one has
>> a much smaller pension but includes a 401k.
>
> I didn't know the old one you couldn't 401K, and the 401K is what you
> put into it, not what the feds put into it. I won't work for the
> government long enough for it to make a difference :-).


The old system got a 401k without any match when the new system came
out. They can now put in up to the IRS max like I can. If at all
possible put in the IRS max, it reduces your income by that amount. I
am 75% International fund and 25% small cap fund(The S Fund). When
you're clipping along at well over 20% annually it will add up pretty fast.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 27, 5:45 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > I think others on this group recently established that all you need is a
> > minimum wage job to be able to afford to own and fly a Piper Pathfinder. You
> > can even fly it all across the country, covering distances as far as Iowa to
> > North Carolina! My guess is you make too much, that's why you're finding
> > rentals too expensive. Give up your current job and get one that pays less
> > so you can continue flying with no worries. Owning and making minimum wage
> > is definitely the way to go if someone earning minimum wage can afford a
> > nice machine like a Pathfinder!
>
> As with most people who have never owned and operated a family
> business, you forgot the caveat that states: "...And you and your wife
> will have to work every waking hour in order to pull it off."
>
> The trade-offs are stark. The rewards are many -- as are the costs.

Reminds me of a joke.
The county comes out to a small business to audit employee records.
The owner tells him there are 3. 1 guy gets $10/hr works 30 hours a
week and has benefits. The second guy gets $15/hr, works 30 hours a
week but gets no benefits. The 3rd guy works 100 hours per week,
averages $3/hr and has no benefits. The county guy said "That third
guy, that's the guy I want to talk to!". The owner responds, "Pleased
to meet you".

-Robert