NTSB: Lack Of Weather Info Doomed Scott Crossfield

[Gig 601XL Builder]

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/NTSBLackOfWeatherInfoDoomedScottCrossfield_196245-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

The NTSB on Thursday released its final report on the plane crash that
killed famed aviator Scott Crossfield last year, with an unusual dual
finding of blame, citing both Crossfield's failure to ask for weather
updates, and air traffic control's failure to give them to him. Crossfield
crashed on the morning of April 19, 2006, in Ludville, Ga., while flying
alone in his Cessna 210. The safety board's determination of probable cause
is: "The pilot's failure to obtain updated en route weather information,
which resulted in his continued instrument flight into a widespread area of
severe convective activity, and the air traffic controller's failure to
provide adverse weather avoidance assistance, as required by Federal
Aviation Administration directives, both of which led to the airplane's
encounter with a severe thunderstorm and subsequent loss of control."

[Bob Gardner]

I wasn't able to attend the NATCA "Communicating for Safety" conference in
Atlanta this year, but they webcast it and made the webcast available online
at www.natca.org/safetytechnology/cfs-live.msp. Downloading all of the
sessions and playing them back is incredibly time consuming but very much
worth while. The first session gets into asking controllers to be more
forthcoming with weather information (and for pilots to ask for it if the
need is there); no names or tail numbers were mentioned but Scott
Crossfield's accident may well have been one of those discussed. As always,
Bruce Landsberg of the Air Safety Foundation is an excellent communicator of
the general aviation community's situation vis a vis ATC.

If you want to know the challenges that controllers face, and how in many
cases individual facility managers deprive them of critical information,
take a look.

Bob Gardner

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/NTSBLackOfWeatherInfoDoomedScottCrossfield_196245-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS
>
> The NTSB on Thursday released its final report on the plane crash that
> killed famed aviator Scott Crossfield last year, with an unusual dual
> finding of blame, citing both Crossfield's failure to ask for weather
> updates, and air traffic control's failure to give them to him. Crossfield
> crashed on the morning of April 19, 2006, in Ludville, Ga., while flying
> alone in his Cessna 210. The safety board's determination of probable
> cause is: "The pilot's failure to obtain updated en route weather
> information, which resulted in his continued instrument flight into a
> widespread area of severe convective activity, and the air traffic
> controller's failure to provide adverse weather avoidance assistance, as
> required by Federal Aviation Administration directives, both of which led
> to the airplane's encounter with a severe thunderstorm and subsequent loss
> of control."
>

[FredGarvinMaleProstitute]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> I wasn't able to attend the NATCA "Communicating for Safety" conference
> in Atlanta this year, but they webcast it and made the webcast available
> online at www.natca.org/safetytechnology/cfs-live.msp. Downloading all
> of the sessions and playing them back is incredibly time consuming but
> very much worth while. The first session gets into asking controllers to
> be more forthcoming with weather information (and for pilots to ask for
> it if the need is there); no names or tail numbers were mentioned but
> Scott Crossfield's accident may well have been one of those discussed.
> As always, Bruce Landsberg of the Air Safety Foundation is an excellent
> communicator of the general aviation community's situation vis a vis ATC.
>
> If you want to know the challenges that controllers face, and how in
> many cases individual facility managers deprive them of critical
> information, take a look.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>> http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/NTSBLackOfWeatherInfoDoomedScottCrossfield_196245-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS
>>
>>
>> The NTSB on Thursday released its final report on the plane crash that
>> killed famed aviator Scott Crossfield last year, with an unusual dual
>> finding of blame, citing both Crossfield's failure to ask for weather
>> updates, and air traffic control's failure to give them to him.
>> Crossfield crashed on the morning of April 19, 2006, in Ludville, Ga.,
>> while flying alone in his Cessna 210. The safety board's determination
>> of probable cause is: "The pilot's failure to obtain updated en route
>> weather information, which resulted in his continued instrument flight
>> into a widespread area of severe convective activity, and the air
>> traffic controller's failure to provide adverse weather avoidance
>> assistance, as required by Federal Aviation Administration directives,
>> both of which led to the airplane's encounter with a severe
>> thunderstorm and subsequent loss of control."
>>
>

Did you know all the weather frequencies in Georgia(EFAS)
were broke that day along Scott's flight path??

Big FAA secret

Check it out

It's hard to get info when the frequency is BROKE

[Gene Seibel]

On Sep 27, 3:02 pm, FredGarvinMaleProstitute
> wrote:
>
> Did you know all the weather frequencies in Georgia(EFAS)
> were broke that day along Scott's flight path??
>
> Big FAA secret
>
> Check it out
>
> It's hard to get info when the frequency is BROKE

Nothing will ever be unbreakable.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Jim Logajan]

FredGarvinMaleProstitute > wrote:
> Did you know all the weather frequencies in Georgia(EFAS)
> were broke that day along Scott's flight path??

Did you know that your rhetorical question doesn't make a lot of sense? You
can't "break" frequencies in the usual senses of that word. Typical troll -
can't form a meaningful sentence.

> Big FAA secret
>
> Check it out

Check out a secret? Silly sod. Either it's a secret and we can't check it
out or you're supposed to provide references to confirm your claim.

> It's hard to get info when the frequency is BROKE

First try to learn to distinguish between equipment breakage, power loss,
radio frequency interference, and a host of other maladies. Then make your
claim in those specific terms.

Now here is what the NTSB report claims regarding the nearest weather
reporting station - feel free to explain in what way the DNN ASOS reporting
was "broke" [sic]:

"The closest weather reporting facility to the accident site was at the
Dalton Regional Airport (DNN), Dalton, Georgia, located about 16 miles
northwest of the accident site. The airport was equipped with an automated
surface observing system (ASOS). About 1118, the DNN ASOS reported: Wind
340 degrees true at 5 knots, gusting to 13 knots; visibility 3 sm in
thunderstorm and heavy rain; scattered clouds at 800 feet above ground
level (agl), broken ceiling at 4,800 feet agl, overcast ceiling at 8,000
feet agl; temperature 16 degrees Celsius; dew point 15 degrees Celsius;
altimeter setting 29.94 inches of mercury. Remarks: Hourly precipitation
0.14 inches and lightning distant in all quadrants."

[FredGarvinMaleProstitute]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> FredGarvinMaleProstitute > wrote:
>> Did you know all the weather frequencies in Georgia(EFAS)
>> were broke that day along Scott's flight path??
>
> Did you know that your rhetorical question doesn't make a lot of sense? You
> can't "break" frequencies in the usual senses of that word. Typical troll -
> can't form a meaningful sentence.
>
>> Big FAA secret
>>
>> Check it out
>
> Check out a secret? Silly sod. Either it's a secret and we can't check it
> out or you're supposed to provide references to confirm your claim.
>
>> It's hard to get info when the frequency is BROKE
>
> First try to learn to distinguish between equipment breakage, power loss,
> radio frequency interference, and a host of other maladies. Then make your
> claim in those specific terms.
>
> Now here is what the NTSB report claims regarding the nearest weather
> reporting station - feel free to explain in what way the DNN ASOS reporting
> was "broke" [sic]:
>
> "The closest weather reporting facility to the accident site was at the
> Dalton Regional Airport (DNN), Dalton, Georgia, located about 16 miles
> northwest of the accident site. The airport was equipped with an automated
> surface observing system (ASOS). About 1118, the DNN ASOS reported: Wind
> 340 degrees true at 5 knots, gusting to 13 knots; visibility 3 sm in
> thunderstorm and heavy rain; scattered clouds at 800 feet above ground
> level (agl), broken ceiling at 4,800 feet agl, overcast ceiling at 8,000
> feet agl; temperature 16 degrees Celsius; dew point 15 degrees Celsius;
> altimeter setting 29.94 inches of mercury. Remarks: Hourly precipitation
> 0.14 inches and lightning distant in all quadrants."

Bad choice of words. You can break frequency "outlets". If
the EFAS or RCO com outlet is out of service, then you can't
communicate with the AFSS. The EFAS and RCO outlets around
Georgia stay broke more than they stay in service. That was
the point of the statement. EFAS outlets and other FAA
equipment was OTS(Out of Service)during the time frame Scott
was passing through the airspace. If Scott tried to call the
AFSS on one of those RCO outlets and it was out of service,
then Scott could not receive a timely weather briefing or
real time weather information.

Air Traffic control is a series of links. You are only as
strong as your weakest link. When parts of the chain are
broke or weak accidents happen. Also the ASOS is only good
for one location. Weather can be drastically different just
a few miles from a ASOS/AWOS location. AFSS controllers
monitor multiple locations including PIREPS and weather
radar to assemble a mosaic of the real time flight weather.
However, if the communication outlets are OTS, how can the
pilot communicate and receive timely weather information?

Scott was in contact with the Atlanta center. Center
controllers separate aircraft and normally do not focus on
weather briefings. That is the job of the AFSS locations.
The AFSS locations communicate with pilots through RCO and
EFAS outlets located at several hundred outlets within the
US airspace system. If the outlet or outlets are
inoperative, then no weather briefings can be received when
the pilot needs them.

Was poor communication or lack of good real time weather
data the cause of Scott's crash? Probably. Like I said, you
are only good as your weakest link. Just like the major
Memphis ARTCC communication outage recently the FAA culture
has become a culture of just getting by and splitting hairs.
I believe the American public and tax payer deserves better
than a half ass Air Traffic control system that is more
focused on "Diversity" and Political Correctness and how
many black females are promoted into management than Safety
and Qualifications.

The FAA is a fat man on thin ice. And the cracks are getting
louder each day.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

FredGarvinMaleProstitute > wrote in
:

> Jim Logajan wrote:
>> FredGarvinMaleProstitute > wrote:
>>> Did you know all the weather frequencies in Georgia(EFAS)
>>> were broke that day along Scott's flight path??
>>
>> Did you know that your rhetorical question doesn't make a lot of
>> sense? You can't "break" frequencies in the usual senses of that
>> word. Typical troll - can't form a meaningful sentence.
>>
>>> Big FAA secret
>>>
>>> Check it out
>>
>> Check out a secret? Silly sod. Either it's a secret and we can't
>> check it out or you're supposed to provide references to confirm your
>> claim.
>>
>>> It's hard to get info when the frequency is BROKE
>>
>> First try to learn to distinguish between equipment breakage, power
>> loss, radio frequency interference, and a host of other maladies.
>> Then make your claim in those specific terms.
>>
>> Now here is what the NTSB report claims regarding the nearest weather
>> reporting station - feel free to explain in what way the DNN ASOS
>> reporting was "broke" [sic]:
>>
>> "The closest weather reporting facility to the accident site was at
>> the Dalton Regional Airport (DNN), Dalton, Georgia, located about 16
>> miles northwest of the accident site. The airport was equipped with
>> an automated surface observing system (ASOS). About 1118, the DNN
>> ASOS reported: Wind 340 degrees true at 5 knots, gusting to 13 knots;
>> visibility 3 sm in thunderstorm and heavy rain; scattered clouds at
>> 800 feet above ground level (agl), broken ceiling at 4,800 feet agl,
>> overcast ceiling at 8,000 feet agl; temperature 16 degrees Celsius;
>> dew point 15 degrees Celsius; altimeter setting 29.94 inches of
>> mercury. Remarks: Hourly precipitation 0.14 inches and lightning
>> distant in all quadrants."
>
> Bad choice of words. You can break frequency "outlets". If
> the EFAS or RCO com outlet is out of service, then you can't
> communicate with the AFSS. The EFAS and RCO outlets around
> Georgia stay broke more than they stay in service. That was
> the point of the statement. EFAS outlets and other FAA
> equipment was OTS(Out of Service)during the time frame Scott
> was passing through the airspace. If Scott tried to call the
> AFSS on one of those RCO outlets and it was out of service,
> then Scott could not receive a timely weather briefing or
> real time weather information.
>
> Air Traffic control is a series of links. You are only as
> strong as your weakest link. When parts of the chain are
> broke or weak accidents happen. Also the ASOS is only good
> for one location. Weather can be drastically different just
> a few miles from a ASOS/AWOS location. AFSS controllers
> monitor multiple locations including PIREPS and weather
> radar to assemble a mosaic of the real time flight weather.
> However, if the communication outlets are OTS, how can the
> pilot communicate and receive timely weather information?
>
> Scott was in contact with the Atlanta center. Center
> controllers separate aircraft and normally do not focus on
> weather briefings. That is the job of the AFSS locations.
> The AFSS locations communicate with pilots through RCO and
> EFAS outlets located at several hundred outlets within the
> US airspace system. If the outlet or outlets are
> inoperative, then no weather briefings can be received when
> the pilot needs them.
>


Oops,wrong! You may be even more clueless than Anthony!




Bertie

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:32:38 -0400, FredGarvinMaleProstitute
> wrote in >:

>However, if the communication outlets are OTS, how can the
>pilot communicate and receive timely weather information?
>
>Scott was in contact with the Atlanta center. Center
>controllers separate aircraft and normally do not focus on
>weather briefings. That is the job of the AFSS locations.
>The AFSS locations communicate with pilots through RCO and
>EFAS outlets located at several hundred outlets within the
>US airspace system. If the outlet or outlets are
>inoperative, then no weather briefings can be received when
>the pilot needs them.

It is my understanding that ARTCC and Approach controllers have near
real time weather radar information available at the request of the
pilot. I recall something about 'button three' or something like
that. Obviously, receiving that information from ATC would not be
dependent on communication with AFFS facilities.