USA competition rules re team flying?

[Frank[_1_]]

Just curious as to the current situation regarding team flying in U.S.
competions, especially in view of the decided disadvantage U.S. pilots
appear to suffer in world competitions due to lack of team flying
experience.

My understanding is that premeditated team flying is still completely
verbotten in the U.S. - have I missed anything? I can only find one
reference to team flying in the rules. From the 2007 SSA National
Rules:

"10.7.2.7 Relaying of information between aircraft for any reason
other than safety is prohibited. This specifically forbids team
flying."

TIA,

Frank (TA).

[Andy[_1_]]

On Oct 3, 6:55 pm, Frank > wrote:
I can only find one
> reference to team flying in the rules. From the 2007 SSA National
> Rules:
>
> "10.7.2.7 Relaying of information between aircraft for any reason
> other than safety is prohibited. This specifically forbids team
> flying."

How many references to a prohibited activity would you expect to find
in the rules? Are you suggesting that this rule only appears in the
National rules and not the Regional rules?

If you want to team with someone, and exchange information with them,
you'll need a multi seat glider. (US sanctioned contests).


Andy

[BB]

On Oct 3, 8:55 pm, Frank > wrote:
> Just curious as to the current situation regarding team flying in U.S.
> competions, especially in view of the decided disadvantage U.S. pilots
> appear to suffer in world competitions due to lack of team flying
> experience.
>
> My understanding is that premeditated team flying is still completely
> verbotten in the U.S. - have I missed anything? I can only find one
> reference to team flying in the rules. From the 2007 SSA National
> Rules:
>
> "10.7.2.7 Relaying of information between aircraft for any reason
> other than safety is prohibited. This specifically forbids team
> flying."
>
> TIA,
>
> Frank (TA).

I searched "team" in the rules, and this is the only reference to team
flying. This is in a section entitled "radio usage" So one
interpretation is that this rule applies only to radio communication.
Anything else goes -- coordinate on the ground, meet up at the start,
fly wingtip to wingtip or nose to tail around the course if you like,
so long as you don't talk on the radio.

However, another interpretation is that "this specifically forbids
team flying" makes team flying more generally against the rules, so
that the above behavior, verified by traces of pilots flying together
day after day, would be against the rules.

A discussion of this issue at a contest this year yielded the former
interpretation. (Most people involved thought there was a more general
ban, and found out there is none.) Still, it seems a grey area worthy
of some clarification.

The other question is whether it makes sense to have a rule with no
enforcement. But that's another question.

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

On Oct 3, 9:55 pm, Frank > wrote:
> Just curious as to the current situation regarding team flying in U.S.
> competions, especially in view of the decided disadvantage U.S. pilots
> appear to suffer in world competitions due to lack of team flying
> experience.
>
> My understanding is that premeditated team flying is still completely
> verbotten in the U.S. - have I missed anything? I can only find one
> reference to team flying in the rules. From the 2007 SSA National
> Rules:
>
> "10.7.2.7 Relaying of information between aircraft for any reason
> other than safety is prohibited. This specifically forbids team
> flying."
>
> TIA,
>
> Frank (TA).

You can't share info on the radio as decribed. That said enforcing a
rule about being in close proximity
for long periods of time would be completely unworkable. How do you
discriminate between team flying and
agressive leaching?
We all team up on sometimes with somebody else informally to do better
against the fleet. Some are very good at working with others, even
without the radio. I have taught the techniques of this to quite a few
folks going to WGC, especially Juniors. Effective team flying can
happen without the radio, It's just easier with it.
Darrell Waltrip, the Nascar star has a perfect term for this -
Coopetition!

[jonathan]

> You can't share info on the radio as decribed. That said enforcing a
....

How can the organisers decide whether info relayed from a pilot to their
personal base/retrieve team is not also intended to be of benefit to to
other (team members) pilots?
What is to stop 3 pilots scouting out 1/2 hour before and, because pilot 4
understands the code used by pilots 1-3, p4 knowns which route (1-3) is
favourable?

p.s. I know nothing.

J.

[BB]

>
> How can the organisers decide whether info relayed from a pilot to their
> personal base/retrieve team is not also intended to be of benefit to to
> other (team members) pilots?
> What is to stop 3 pilots scouting out 1/2 hour before and, because pilot 4
> understands the code used by pilots 1-3, p4 knowns which route (1-3) is
> favourable?
>

Pilots who want to cheat don't need to go to such lengths. They just
go off on some other frequency, or carry FM radios. The rule isn't
enforced -- we rely on good sportsmanship, and the disgrace that would
follow if someone were caught. For the moment, that seems to be
working. Reports I have heard of bending this rule are confined to
regionals or low scorers. Few US national contests have been won by
pilots flying together, at least so far, so the question of radio
contact really hasn't come up in any situation that anyone really
cares about it.

John Cochrane