Welding techniques for 4130?

[Building The Perfect Beast]

I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I have a
LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method may
be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a buddy
who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could ever
ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
there recommend or prefer?

Thanks.

[Model Flyer]

"Building The Perfect Beast" > wrote in
message ...
> I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks
like I have a
> LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different
methods, ie
> brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each
method may
> be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working
with a buddy
> who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I
could ever
> ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you
welders out
> there recommend or prefer?
>

Do a course in your local trade school or collage, this will save you
a lot of time and meterial.
--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place



> Thanks.

[James R. Freeman]

Tig if not then oxy/ac
"Building The Perfect Beast" > wrote in message
...
> I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I
have a
> LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
> brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method
may
> be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a
buddy
> who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could
ever
> ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
> there recommend or prefer?
>
> Thanks.

[Del Rawlins]

On 28 Aug 2003 02:00 PM, Building The Perfect Beast posted the following:
> I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like
> I have a LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different
> methods, ie brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks
> of each method may be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I
> will be working with a buddy who owns a machine shop and he has just
> about all the equipment I could ever ask for. Given that availability
> of equipment, what would you welders out there recommend or prefer?

I'm going to assume you will be welding 4130 steel structures
exclusively. If you are a relative novice to welding, use oxy-acetylene
equipment and mild steel rod. Do a Google search on this newsgroup,
paying extra close attention to posts by Bruce Frank and a guy named
"Highflier." Also, the EAA puts out an excellent publication on
aircraft welding.

As for equipment, if I were buying new equipment I would buy one of the
standard cutting/welding kits from Victor or Harris (now owned by
lincoln electric) mainly to get the regulators and hoses. The torches
that come with those kits are on the large side for welding thin
material, so buy a smaller torch which will be more maneuverable,
especially around fuselage clusters. I've heard good reports about the
Meco Midget, the Smith Airline, and the Henrob (people who have used the
latter find it a bit heavy).

Unless you are already an accomplished welder, ignore suggestions to
purchase an expensive TIG welding machine. It is not necessary and may
lead to undesirable results unless you have already mastered the basics
of welding with oxy-acetylene equipment. I use a small TIG machine and
like it, but I also use it for other things (like aluminum and
automotive projects) and had quite a bit of oxy/acetylene experience
before trying it. If I couldn't afford a TIG unit, I would weld
together my airframe using oxy/acetylene with no hesitation.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Jim]

Tig if not then oxy/ac
"Building The Perfect Beast" > wrote in message
...
> I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I
have a
> LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
> brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method
may
> be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a
buddy
> who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could
ever
> ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
> there recommend or prefer?
>
> Thanks.

[Corky Scott]

On 28 Aug 2003 22:00:46 GMT, (Building The
Perfect Beast) wrote:

>I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I have a
>LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
>brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method may
>be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a buddy
>who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could ever
>ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
>there recommend or prefer?
>
>Thanks.

Welding means to fuse two metals together by melting them, often with
the addition of a filler.

There are many ways to do that: Stick, Oxy Acetylene torch, TIG, MIG
and some kind of friction method has been developed now. Of those
mentioned, stick and O/A are by far the least expensive. Of those
two, only O/A is recommended as it's very difficult to make a
satisfactory weld on thinwall tubing using a stick welder.

Thinwall 4130 tubing was developed originally to be welded using the
O/A method with a mild steel filler rod. The people who joined the
tubes using this method were really good at it and the welds are a
marvel to look at.

Anyone with the desire and a little understanding and practice can
manage a decent weld on thinwall tubing. The best method for learning
is to take a course, like those offered by Ron Alexander in
conjunction with EAA. You learn by doing yourself under close
supervision and can see with your own eys what constitutes a good weld
and what doesn't.

Brazing hasn't been tried much for several reasons but I understand
that there are brazing rods that are easily up to the task. The only
difficulty is that the brazing process is less able to fill gaps than
welding, so the joints must necessarily be closer in tolerence.

The bottom line is O/A welding is a proven method for joining thinwall
tubing and is no more expensive than brazing so why not weld?

Corky Scott

[Bruce A. Frank]

Actually, brazing is probably more expensive than welding.

Corky Scott wrote:
>
> On 28 Aug 2003 22:00:46 GMT, (Building The
> Perfect Beast) wrote:
>
> >I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I have a
> >LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
> >brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method may
> >be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a buddy
> >who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could ever
> >ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
> >there recommend or prefer?
> >
> >Thanks.
>
> Welding means to fuse two metals together by melting them, often with
> the addition of a filler.
>
> There are many ways to do that: Stick, Oxy Acetylene torch, TIG, MIG
> and some kind of friction method has been developed now. Of those
> mentioned, stick and O/A are by far the least expensive. Of those
> two, only O/A is recommended as it's very difficult to make a
> satisfactory weld on thinwall tubing using a stick welder.
>
> Thinwall 4130 tubing was developed originally to be welded using the
> O/A method with a mild steel filler rod. The people who joined the
> tubes using this method were really good at it and the welds are a
> marvel to look at.
>
> Anyone with the desire and a little understanding and practice can
> manage a decent weld on thinwall tubing. The best method for learning
> is to take a course, like those offered by Ron Alexander in
> conjunction with EAA. You learn by doing yourself under close
> supervision and can see with your own eys what constitutes a good weld
> and what doesn't.
>
> Brazing hasn't been tried much for several reasons but I understand
> that there are brazing rods that are easily up to the task. The only
> difficulty is that the brazing process is less able to fill gaps than
> welding, so the joints must necessarily be closer in tolerence.
>
> The bottom line is O/A welding is a proven method for joining thinwall
> tubing and is no more expensive than brazing so why not weld?
>
> Corky Scott

--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|
*------------------------------**----*
\(-o-)/ AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.
\___/ Manufacturing parts & pieces
/ \ for homebuilt aircraft,
0 0 TIG welding

While trying to find the time to finish mine.

[nuke]

Thousands of A/C have been welded up with Oxy-Acetylene. Why not go to an
EAA Sportair workshop? They run both Oxy-Acetylene [& TIG] welding
sessions. A 2-day hands-on class will get you started off right.
http://www.sportair.com/
nuke
"Building The Perfect Beast" > wrote in message
...
> I am going to begin an aircraft project this winter and it looks like I
have a
> LOT of welding ahead of me. I'm curious as to the different methods, ie
> brazing vs. arc, etc., and what the benefits or drawbacks of each method
may
> be. Is one style better? Stronger? Easier? I will be working with a
buddy
> who owns a machine shop and he has just about all the equipment I could
ever
> ask for. Given that availability of equipment, what would you welders out
> there recommend or prefer?
>
> Thanks.

[Steve Thomas]

I have just been surfing through the EAA members only area of the website
under the homebuilt section/articles/welding and working with 4130. It seems
to me that all of the articles were written in the early and mid 90's. A lot
has changed since then and some things have had time to prove themselves. I
think that the EAA would be doing everyone a service if they would update
the information with current knowledgeable people writing the articles.

--
Have a good one!

Steve
www.americanspiritppc.com
"Matthew P. Cummings" > wrote in message
ray.net...
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:46:36 -0400, nuke wrote:
>
> > Thousands of A/C have been welded up with Oxy-Acetylene. Why not go to
an
> > EAA Sportair workshop? They run both Oxy-Acetylene [& TIG] welding
> > sessions. A 2-day hands-on class will get you started off right.
>
> At Oshkosh the instructor in the EAA welding forum said that due to new
> information they now weld airframes with 4130 only, never ever use RG45.
> I don't quite believe them and will do like Budd Davidson does, and nearly
> the rest of the universe and weld with Oxy/Acetylene and RG 45, no fancy
> Tig stuff for me because then I wouldn't be doing it.
>
> Did anybody else attend the Welding forum and get that same information?
> I'm wondering if the old guy was losing it, I think he's the same one on
> the EAA tape, and there he goes with what most agree on, at Oshkosh he was
> almost backwards on everything. In fact, some of the things he said, when
> you got to the next instructor he would say don't do that, it's wrong, and
> the student would argue that's what the other fellow just told the class.
>
> So, I'm wondering what the value of this class is if the instructors
> disagree among themselves, or was this just a bad day for that guy. BTW,
> they were using RG45 rod that day.
>

[Building The Perfect Beast]

>I'm going to assume you will be welding 4130 steel structures
>exclusively. If you are a relative novice to welding, use oxy-acetylene
>equipment and mild steel rod. Do a Google search on this newsgroup,
>paying extra close attention to posts by Bruce Frank and a guy named
>"Highflier." Also, the EAA puts out an excellent publication on
>aircraft welding.

Thanks Del. That's what I was looking for. I did a Google search and just
came up on too many hits. I was hoping that I might get it narrowed down and
you've done just that for me.

>
>Unless you are already an accomplished welder, ignore suggestions to
>purchase an expensive TIG welding machine. It is not necessary and may
>lead to undesirable results unless you have already mastered the basics
>of welding with oxy-acetylene equipment. I use a small TIG machine and
>like it, but I also use it for other things (like aluminum and
>automotive projects) and had quite a bit of oxy/acetylene experience
>before trying it. If I couldn't afford a TIG unit, I would weld
>together my airframe using oxy/acetylene with no hesitation.
>

Luckily I've got a buddy who is going to build with me and he is a master
welder. I plan on learning a lot from him. As for my experience, well, most
of it is on farm equipment and about all I've ever used oxy/acetylene for was
cutting stuff up. I'm a fair stick welder but I know I've got a lot to learn.
And I'm looking forward to it.

Done properly, do you feel that there is any difference in the quality of weld
produced by oxy/ace vs. TIG? Is the TIG just less hassle or what?

[Building The Perfect Beast]

>Welding means to fuse two metals together by melting them, often with
>the addition of a filler.
>

<good stuff snipped>

Thanks Corky. I appreciate your input.

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On 30 Aug 2003 19:08:53 GMT, (Building The
Perfect Beast) wrote:

>>I'm going to assume you will be welding 4130 steel structures
>>exclusively. If you are a relative novice to welding, use oxy-acetylene
>>equipment and mild steel rod. Do a Google search on this newsgroup,
>>paying extra close attention to posts by Bruce Frank and a guy named
>>"Highflier." Also, the EAA puts out an excellent publication on
>>aircraft welding.
>
>Thanks Del. That's what I was looking for. I did a Google search and just
>came up on too many hits. I was hoping that I might get it narrowed down and
>you've done just that for me.
>
>>
>>Unless you are already an accomplished welder, ignore suggestions to
>>purchase an expensive TIG welding machine. It is not necessary and may
>>lead to undesirable results unless you have already mastered the basics
>>of welding with oxy-acetylene equipment. I use a small TIG machine and
>>like it, but I also use it for other things (like aluminum and
>>automotive projects) and had quite a bit of oxy/acetylene experience
>>before trying it. If I couldn't afford a TIG unit, I would weld
>>together my airframe using oxy/acetylene with no hesitation.
>>
>
>Luckily I've got a buddy who is going to build with me and he is a master
>welder. I plan on learning a lot from him. As for my experience, well, most
>of it is on farm equipment and about all I've ever used oxy/acetylene for was
>cutting stuff up. I'm a fair stick welder but I know I've got a lot to learn.
>And I'm looking forward to it.
>
>Done properly, do you feel that there is any difference in the quality of weld
>produced by oxy/ace vs. TIG? Is the TIG just less hassle or what?
>
TIG is easier to control. The heat is more intense and localised. The
"flame" is always neutral.

On the other hand, the flame on Oxy Acet is more forgiving. You don't
polute the electrode every time you get the tip too close to the
puddle.

A lot easier to learn to weld with ocy Acet than with TIG.

[Del Rawlins]

On 30 Aug 2003 11:08 AM, Building The Perfect Beast posted the following:

> Done properly, do you feel that there is any difference in the quality
> of weld produced by oxy/ace vs. TIG? Is the TIG just less hassle or
> what?

Well, many knowledgable and experienced welders believe that the
narrower heat effected zone (HAZ) causes more stresses to be
concentrated right next to the weld, rather than spread out over a wider
area adjacent to the weld. The problem is that while the weld may be
sound, these stress concentrations might cause cracking right next to
the TIG welds. The cure for this is to either weld using oxy-acetylene,
or to post heat the TIG welds using an O/A torch with the "rosebud"
heating attachment, which stress relieves the joint, moving the stresses
away from the more highly loaded weld clusters, and preventing the
cracking. For every welder who holds this opinion, you can probably
find another equally qualified welder (including the guy who helped FAA
revise the welding portion of AC43.13) who believes it to be a non-issue
and the post heating to be unnecessary.

As a mostly self-taught amateur welder, my position is that I don't know
enough to say either way, but that nobody has been able to convince me
there is a downside to post heating the TIG welded joints, other than
the time and cost of the gases used. My plan is to do as Bruce has
suggested in the past, and not worry about it for the most part, but to
also go over some of the more highly stressed critical areas with the
rosebud. Places like the wing and landing gear attach fittings, and the
tailspring and engine mount points.

For the record, I *really* like my TIG unit (a Lincoln square wave 175)
and I feel that the precision, cleanliness, and convenience of the TIG
process outweighs the disadvantages of cost and possible need to strain
relieve welds. But in your case, since you will need to develop oxy/
acetylene skills anyway before you can even think about trying the TIG,
you should just use the O/A torch for your welding since it is easier
and more forgiving. I already had plenty of O/A welding experience
under my belt and I did quite a bit of welding on non-aviation stuff
with the TIG before I ever started putting aircraft parts together with
it.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[John Thompson]

Kent White gives forums on gas welding and brazing all week long. No
need for EAA to do it.

I do remember one EAA forum instructor saying the ER70S- series for
welding rod.

I do find the welding instructors to have other small
inconsistencies...how to hold the torch, dipping the filler rod, etc.

[Building The Perfect Beast]

>
>Kent White gives forums on gas welding and brazing all week long.

Where is he located?

[Ray Romeu]

See http://www.tinmantech.com/html/kent_white.html
He has a forum on working aluminum at Oshkosh, very well attended and
informative.
Ray

"Building The Perfect Beast" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Kent White gives forums on gas welding and brazing all week long.
>
> Where is he located?

[John Thompson]

Kent White is in forum tent 21 most of the time, but does change here
and there. check the forum schedules.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:30:40 -0700, Joe Maj wrote:

> I was one of those instructors, and I always state that R45 is
> completely satisfactory for gas welding 4130 steel. I use it myself.

The older guy giving it said that nothing but 4130 is acceptable now, and
furthermore you do not need to stress relieve, but then a younger guy,
maybe you, disagreed with what he said. In fact, a young guy who was
supervising the welding said that if you followed the older guys advice
you would blow up your shop, re: cracking the valves before attaching the
regulator.

> What did people think of the OSHA-industrial-grade lecture on gas
> welding safety? Having listened to it twice a day for a week, I think

I thought for a person who's never been behind the torch it was
appropriate, however, if you've welded it was much too long.

> don't express an opinion, we'll all have to go through that again next
> year.

I suspect you need to give it since you have a lot of people who've never
welded before. It could be shortened up by not parroting what the video
tape says.

What I believe needs to happen is to have consistency between instructors,
as was I found the EAA welding forum to be next to worthless due to the
conflicting information. How is a newbie to differentiate between the
instructor who says do this, and then he moves on the hands on part and
they say don't do that. Your forum in my opinion created confusion in the
minds of some of the participants, or so I noticed when I was watching
them.

One of the most outstanding issues was if you attended any of the other
welding forums, Budd's or Kent's, what they did and said was not at all
what the EAA said. I'm not good enough to judge the correctness of what
the EAA instructors said, but I will do what people have been doing for a
very long time in contrast to what the EAA instructors said and as the
other two whom I respect have said.

[Corky Scott]

On 30 Aug 2003 19:08:53 GMT, (Building The
Perfect Beast) wrote:

>Luckily I've got a buddy who is going to build with me and he is a master
>welder. I plan on learning a lot from him. As for my experience, well, most
>of it is on farm equipment and about all I've ever used oxy/acetylene for was
>cutting stuff up. I'm a fair stick welder but I know I've got a lot to learn.
>And I'm looking forward to it.
>
>Done properly, do you feel that there is any difference in the quality of weld
>produced by oxy/ace vs. TIG? Is the TIG just less hassle or what?

Done properly there is not much difference and both can produce
similar looking welds although it often takes a while to build up the
skills to produce quality looking welds every time.

Dell mentioned that the cost did not bother him. For me, cost is a
huge issue. I don't weld all the time, and once the fuselage was done
the welding dropped off to a bit here and there, maybe once every four
to five months, if that. So having a $1300 rig sitting in the shop
that wasn't being used doesn't make sense to me when the Oxy/Acet
torch welds tubing just fine. Remember, before there was TIG, ALL
fuselages were built using the torch, and none of them pulled apart.

Remember, you are welding a fillet entirely around each joint. When
you do that, you encapsulate the cluster with filler and fused metal.
It's as indesctructable a connection as there is.

TIG has a lot going for it but ease of use when welding a fuselage
isn't one of them. The handle is heavier to hold for long periods
than a torch and you have to have the foot pedal near by to be able to
use it, or you must buy a hand operated trigger. The handle gets hot
after a while unless you have water cooling, which adds weight and
complexity.

A torch setup will cost around $300 new. The gasses aren't expensive
to rent, and besides, you need Argon for the TIG welder too.

The TIG machine is more versatile and is capable of welding thicker
metals with less distortion, if you need to do so.

Corky Scott

[Richard Lamb]

"Matthew P. Cummings" wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:30:40 -0700, Joe Maj wrote:
>
> > I was one of those instructors, and I always state that R45 is
> > completely satisfactory for gas welding 4130 steel. I use it myself.
>
> The older guy giving it said that nothing but 4130 is acceptable now, and

Acceptable to Whom?

[Corky Scott]

On 2 Sep 2003 18:41:07 GMT, Del Rawlins
> wrote:

>On 02 Sep 2003 04:24 AM, Corky Scott posted the following:
>
>> Dell mentioned that the cost did not bother him. For me, cost is a
>> huge issue. I don't weld all the time, and once the fuselage was done
>> the welding dropped off to a bit here and there, maybe once every four
>> to five months, if that. So having a $1300 rig sitting in the shop
>> that wasn't being used doesn't make sense to me when the Oxy/Acet
>> torch welds tubing just fine. Remember, before there was TIG, ALL
>> fuselages were built using the torch, and none of them pulled apart.
>
>That's not totally accurate, since the cost of the unit was definitely
>an issue. If all I were going to do with it was weld together one
>fuselage, I wouldn't have wanted the TIG unit.
>----------------------------------------------------
>Del Rawlins-
>Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
>Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
>http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Sorry Dell, didn't mean to imply anything. Should have said that I'm
speaking only for myself. So it's very accurate for me. :-)

Corky Scott

[Morgans]

"Joe Maj" > wrote in message
m...
> I was one of those instructors, and I always state that R45 is

> Anybody interested in a gas welding aluminum class for next year? It
> gets asked for a lot, but we haven't done it much since Lloyd Toll
> stopped instructing.
\

I would be there.
--
Jim in NC

[Del Rawlins]

On 02 Sep 2003 06:32 PM, Joe Maj posted the following:

>>In fact, a young guy who was
>> supervising the welding said that if you followed the older guys
>> advice you would blow up your shop, re: cracking the valves before
>> attaching the regulator.
>
> I didn't say it, but I agree, don't crack valves.

Why not crack the valves? I was taught in welding class years ago to
always crack the valve briefly before installing a regulator. The idea
was to blow out any dust that had settled in the outlet so that it
didn't get into the regulator. Have I been on the verge of disaster all
this time?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[[email protected]]

On 3 Sep 2003 04:01:49 GMT, Del Rawlins
> wrote:

:On 02 Sep 2003 07:41 PM, posted the following:
:> Define "crack."
:>
:> Open slightly, for a moment?
:>
:> Or open slightly, and leave open slightly?
:>
:> If the first, you're fine. I suspect people are worried about the
:> second.
:
:I meant the first. To do the second would be retarded and useless.

Yes. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime. And you
should never underestimate the human capacity for stupidity.

[Bruce A. Frank]

This is really getting some odd information presented here. The filler
rod intended for use with 4130 tube used to build a fuselage is MILD
STEEL. The weld is stronger than the tube even though welded with MILD
STEEL. Choices for filler are things like ER70s-6 or -3 or -6. And
several variations, some with additions to the designation like D2. All
will do the job from a metallurgical point of view. I find ER70s-6 to
suit me best with both Oxy/Acet or TIG, though you might want to sand
the copper plating off before welding with it (some find the copper
interferes with the flow of the filler in the molten puddle).

The only time 4130 should be welded with 4130 material is when the part
is going to be heat treated. A novice welder can get into trouble with
undetectable cracking when welding with 4130 filler wire. Heck, even the
experts can find problems with 4130 material used for filler.

A small side note, there are fillers that exceed the strength of heat
treated 4130 that weld as smoothly as if shaping soft butter with a
table knife. You can weld the part more easily than you can with mild
steel then heat treat with no chance of cracking or embrittlement of the
fillet. Sorry, TIG welding only...and expensive.

--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|


"Matthew P. Cummings" wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:30:40 -0700, Joe Maj wrote:
>
> > I was one of those instructors, and I always state that R45 is
> > completely satisfactory for gas welding 4130 steel. I use it myself.
>
> The older guy giving it said that nothing but 4130 is acceptable now, and
> furthermore you do not need to stress relieve, but then a younger guy,
> maybe you, disagreed with what he said. In fact, a young guy who was
> supervising the welding said that if you followed the older guys advice
> you would blow up your shop, re: cracking the valves before attaching the
> regulator.
>
> > What did people think of the OSHA-industrial-grade lecture on gas
> > welding safety? Having listened to it twice a day for a week, I think
>
> I thought for a person who's never been behind the torch it was
> appropriate, however, if you've welded it was much too long.
>
> > don't express an opinion, we'll all have to go through that again next
> > year.
>
> I suspect you need to give it since you have a lot of people who've never
> welded before. It could be shortened up by not parroting what the video
> tape says.
>
> What I believe needs to happen is to have consistency between instructors,
> as was I found the EAA welding forum to be next to worthless due to the
> conflicting information. How is a newbie to differentiate between the
> instructor who says do this, and then he moves on the hands on part and
> they say don't do that. Your forum in my opinion created confusion in the
> minds of some of the participants, or so I noticed when I was watching
> them.
>
> One of the most outstanding issues was if you attended any of the other
> welding forums, Budd's or Kent's, what they did and said was not at all
> what the EAA said. I'm not good enough to judge the correctness of what
> the EAA instructors said, but I will do what people have been doing for a
> very long time in contrast to what the EAA instructors said and as the
> other two whom I respect have said.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:12:07 +0000, Richard Lamb wrote:


> Acceptable to Whom?

The EAA I assume since they're the ones who made that claim.

[Bob Thomasson]

<<I'll be
receiving my A&P this coming May >>

Del,

That's great newes. Did you manage to get a job at an airplane-fixing-place?

Bob

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:03:03 -0500, "Matthew P. Cummings"
> wrote:


>
>I agree it's odd, and I won't be doing as the volunteer at the EAA welding
>forum suggested because everything he said flies in the face of what the
>rest of the world is doing. He was the guy who said to crack the valves.
>I don't have an opinion one way or another on it, but the other guy said
>to not crack it at all, and by that he meant a quick open and shutting of
>the valve. He claimed that the Acetylene might blow up if you crack it
>and the other problem was you released that gas in the shop you are going
>to weld in. I can't disagree with that however.
>
Acettlene goes unstable when the pressure goes above something like
15? psi undisolved. It is stored disolved in Acetone. Cracking the
valve gently, and closing it gently, will NOT get free acetylene
anywhere close to the critical point, and will make sure you do not
get dirt into the regulator, which CAN cause the reg to stop
regulating, and put free acetylene over the critical pressure.

How much gas are you going to release?? The average welder likely
releases as much every time he lights his torch.

[Del Rawlins]

On 03 Sep 2003 04:47 PM, Bob Thomasson posted the following:
> <<I'll be
> receiving my A&P this coming May >>
>
> Del,
>
> That's great news. Did you manage to get a job at an airplane-fixing-
> place?

No, I'm squandering my inheritance and going to school full time on the
accelerated version of the program here in Anchorage. With the credit
overload I am taking I don't think I could handle a job right now; last
semester I took 26, this semester I could only get 20 to fit in my
schedule but in the spring I go back up to 24 again. For all practical
purposes it is a full time 8 hour/day job except the cash flow is
inverted. 8^P

I'll most likely get a job at one of the local aviation fixit shops
until my brother and I can get our act together on building a hangar up
in the Mat/Su valley. Nice thing about Alaska is the way airplanes get
used (and used up) here there won't ever be any lack of business.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Bruce A. Frank]

First let me correct something in my post (there I go, reading my own
posts again). For filler I meant to say "ER70S-6, -3, or -2..."

Let me make a comment on your experience with the EAA forum. I am sorry
to hear that there was conflicting info given out at the forum. Yes,
there should be consensus between those instructing as to what basic
information will be conveyed.

Cracking a valve for a split second before mounting a regulator is
standard practice taught at all welding technical colleges and trade
schools whose curriculum I have seen. It clears trash, dust and bugs out
of the valve nozzle preventing then from entering and damaging the
regulator.

Let me make a point about why mild steel filler works and why you are
not sacrificing any strength. WHen welding with mild steel filler on
4130 there is ever so slight add-mixture taking place as some of the
alloying ingredients migrate in the molten puddle from the 4130 to the
mild steel filler. So the filler is a bit stronger and there is virally
no decrease in the strength of the tube. But, this really makes no
difference. If there were no add-mixture taking place the strength of
the weld would STILL exceed that of the tube.

Think about the fact that the tube you are welding usually has a wall
thickness of .065" or less...much less for the most part as most
fuselage tubes are in the range of .035" to .045". Even with TIG it is
not likely that you are going to make a welded bead (fillet)that is
smaller than 1/8" across the face. That makes the welded leg aprox.
..35". So under destructive load you have .35" worth of weld pulling
against .035" worth of tube wall. The failure is going to occur in the
tube. The mild steel may be ONLY 60,000 psi strength material while the
4130 tube is 100,000 psi, but for the amount of weld present, the weld
is many times stronger than the tube.

"Matthew P. Cummings" wrote:
>
> On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 06:10:26 +0000, Bruce A. Frank wrote:
>
> > This is really getting some odd information presented here. The filler
> > rod intended for use with 4130 tube used to build a fuselage is MILD
> > STEEL. The weld is stronger than the tube even though welded with MILD
>
> I agree it's odd, and I won't be doing as the volunteer at the EAA welding
> forum suggested because everything he said flies in the face of what the
> rest of the world is doing. He was the guy who said to crack the valves.
> I don't have an opinion one way or another on it, but the other guy said
> to not crack it at all, and by that he meant a quick open and shutting of
> the valve. He claimed that the Acetylene might blow up if you crack it
> and the other problem was you released that gas in the shop you are going
> to weld in. I can't disagree with that however.
>
> Honestly, I was very disappointed in the quality of the welding forum and
> thought that if the EAA puts their name on it, then they should have some
> sort of standardization to go with it. To me, it was a joke and not worth
> the time spent there. How is a new user supposed to reconcile the polar
> opposite information presented in one forum? That's why I didn't enjoy
> the forum, one guy says do this, another says don't. One says use this
> rod, the others say don't every use it unless it's in a motor mount. One
> says stress relive, the other says that will CAUSE more problems than it
> solves. In the end, everything I was taught about welding was said to be
> wrong by the volunteer giving the presentation, yet, what I was taught is
> what is still currently being taught and held as acceptable. If the
> volunteer had facts to back him up it would have been nice, but take this
> bit of information he presented. He claimed that why would you weld 4130
> tubing and use something like mild steel for the filler thus causing the
> 4130 to loose tensile strength. So he said you MUST use 4130 in order to
> retain the tensile strength of the tubing, ignoring the fact that the act
> of welding lowers the strength. Based on his mistakes I did not learn
> much since how can I trust an instructor when they present as fact
> falsehoods? He also gave out smith numbers for the tips to use for
> welding, but the problem was Smith does not use a number system like he
> said, so a newbie would not know what to ask for because they would have
> to find a compatible source. I.e. a 0 in one brand might not be a 0 in
> another. How would a new user know there is no standardization in tip
> sizes, especially when he said Smith has this number and they don't use
> those numbers for the body he described?
>
> If the EAA can't put on a unified front then they should not be involved
> in teaching something like welding. They should take a page from other
> groups which have a manual for the instructors, the instructors then go by
> it and do not add their own information to it thus presenting a unified
> classroom setting without causing confusion.
>
> My desire would be for Budd to add a hands on to his presentation, he did
> a respectable job getting the information across and did not have the
> problem of giving conflicting information.
>
> So, here's my plan. I'm using a rod like RG 45 for welding my 4130
> tubing with my Smith AW1a torch.

--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|
*------------------------------**----*
\(-o-)/ AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.
\___/ Manufacturing parts & pieces
/ \ for homebuilt aircraft,
0 0 TIG welding

While trying to find the time to finish mine.