Cheap German gliding

[Dan G]

On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
> costs included.
> Lots of young people, too.
>
> Bye
> Andreas

I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
maintenance, fuel etc.


Dan

[Udo]

On Oct 7, 6:54 am, Dan G > wrote:
> On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>
> > No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
> > costs included.
> > Lots of young people, too.
>
> > Bye
> > Andreas
>
> I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
> cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
> maintenance, fuel etc.
>
> Dan


I have visited a few German clubs about 8-9 years ago and talked to
the people that run those clubs. I will list what stood out in my
mind.

I noted the following with one club http://www.lsgerbsloeh.de/

This club is surrounded by a relative large population base.
They maximizing the use of the field.
The Field is used to grow hay.
All flying equipment is self insured but for Liability.
The Insurance money is invested and is generating income.
They own a single dual winch, plus one tow plane.
When the need arises the rent additional tow planes.
They stage air events twice a year and the local population is
invited.
This is promoted extensively. It combines an air show with active
participation, complete food services it is common to have 20000
visitors. It generates around 25000 Euros net for the club.
Planning is long-term.
The fleet is update regularly.
The club is in the forefront of generating high calibre contest
pilots. Also the club holds twice a year regular flying seminars which
are attended by Dutch, Belgian and Danes that bring there own
gliders.
Within the club cross Country flying is stressed at all times.
A limited number of none pilot, mostly teenagers about 8-10, are
invited to join each year. If you are under the age of 16 , the
parents are involved as to what is expect of there child,in terms of
time and other commitments, besides the weekend flying.
The facilities are nice which includes and indoor / outdoor
restaurant,
in a park like setting, which is run by the club with full services on
the weekend, generating funds.
Since its humble beginning in 1954 the club had to move twice and has
been at this place for at least 35 years.

All this has been accomplished over time without outside help.
The club has received on numerous occasions the title Centre of
excellence award.
Udo

[Frank Whiteley]

On Oct 7, 9:55 am, Udo > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 6:54 am, Dan G > wrote:
>
> > On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>
> > > No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
> > > costs included.
> > > Lots of young people, too.
>
> > > Bye
> > > Andreas
>
> > I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
> > cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
> > maintenance, fuel etc.
>
> > Dan
>
> I have visited a few German clubs about 8-9 years ago and talked to
> the people that run those clubs. I will list what stood out in my
> mind.
>
> I noted the following with one clubhttp://www.lsgerbsloeh.de/
>
> This club is surrounded by a relative large population base.
> They maximizing the use of the field.
> The Field is used to grow hay.
> All flying equipment is self insured but for Liability.
> The Insurance money is invested and is generating income.
> They own a single dual winch, plus one tow plane.
> When the need arises the rent additional tow planes.
> They stage air events twice a year and the local population is
> invited.
> This is promoted extensively. It combines an air show with active
> participation, complete food services it is common to have 20000
> visitors. It generates around 25000 Euros net for the club.
> Planning is long-term.
> The fleet is update regularly.
> The club is in the forefront of generating high calibre contest
> pilots. Also the club holds twice a year regular flying seminars which
> are attended by Dutch, Belgian and Danes that bring there own
> gliders.
> Within the club cross Country flying is stressed at all times.
> A limited number of none pilot, mostly teenagers about 8-10, are
> invited to join each year. If you are under the age of 16 , the
> parents are involved as to what is expect of there child,in terms of
> time and other commitments, besides the weekend flying.
> The facilities are nice which includes and indoor / outdoor
> restaurant,
> in a park like setting, which is run by the club with full services on
> the weekend, generating funds.
> Since its humble beginning in 1954 the club had to move twice and has
> been at this place for at least 35 years.
>
> All this has been accomplished over time without outside help.
> The club has received on numerous occasions the title Centre of
> excellence award.
> Udo

We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
_minimal_ charges.

Frank Whiteley

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
> power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
> His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
> commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
> _minimal_ charges.

The key factor here is how the club came to own the airfield. One
common factor among the clubs I visited in the UK last year is that they
owned beautiful grass WW II era airfields. When I asked how that
happened, the stories were pretty much the same, the government sold to
them for a relatively low price, with the concurrence of the local towns
who didn't want them turned into housing developments or industry.

Here in the USA, such a notion would be completely ludicrous 8^)

Marc

[Papa3]

On Oct 7, 1:55 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
> > power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
> > His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
> > commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
> > _minimal_ charges.
>
> The key factor here is how the club came to own the airfield. One
> common factor among the clubs I visited in the UK last year is that they
> owned beautiful grass WW II era airfields. When I asked how that
> happened, the stories were pretty much the same, the government sold to
> them for a relatively low price, with the concurrence of the local towns
> who didn't want them turned into housing developments or industry.
>
> Here in the USA, such a notion would be completely ludicrous 8^)
>
> Marc

I wonder if anyone from the US who was in the sport a while back (say
1950s thorugh 1970s) can explain what was different in the US. Why
weren't clubs acquiring land? There are a few clubs around (PGC and
M-ASA come to mind) which bought land that has now guaranteed their
(financial) future. By the time I got into soaring in the early
1980s, there was already the problem that land near population centers
(i.e. one hour or less drive) was already becoming prohibitively
expensive. Today, for example, getting anything within about an 1:30
drive of NYC would mean an investment well into the $ millions.

Just curious to get some historical perspective.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

[Bill Daniels]

"Papa3" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 7, 1:55 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
>> Frank Whiteley wrote:
>> > We had a young Czech glider pilot here for a couple of years building
>> > power time and ratings. He's now flying regional European airlines.
>> > His club owned the airfield and leased out several buildings for
>> > commercial/industrial use which resulted in the club operating at
>> > _minimal_ charges.
>>
>> The key factor here is how the club came to own the airfield. One
>> common factor among the clubs I visited in the UK last year is that they
>> owned beautiful grass WW II era airfields. When I asked how that
>> happened, the stories were pretty much the same, the government sold to
>> them for a relatively low price, with the concurrence of the local towns
>> who didn't want them turned into housing developments or industry.
>>
>> Here in the USA, such a notion would be completely ludicrous 8^)
>>
>> Marc
>
> I wonder if anyone from the US who was in the sport a while back (say
> 1950s thorugh 1970s) can explain what was different in the US. Why
> weren't clubs acquiring land? There are a few clubs around (PGC and
> M-ASA come to mind) which bought land that has now guaranteed their
> (financial) future. By the time I got into soaring in the early
> 1980s, there was already the problem that land near population centers
> (i.e. one hour or less drive) was already becoming prohibitively
> expensive. Today, for example, getting anything within about an 1:30
> drive of NYC would mean an investment well into the $ millions.
>
> Just curious to get some historical perspective.
>
> Erik Mann
> LS8-18 (P3)
>

There are many reasons but one is that the US is somewhat unique in having
publicly funded general aviation airports, some of which host soaring
operations. The question was and is, "If you can get guaranteed access to
airport facilities on the taxpayer's nickel, why buy your own?" Right now,
the utilization of many of these public GA airports is way down due to the
high price of avgas so more may become available for soaring operations.

I'm not saying that using public airports is the best idea in the long run
but it does have some advantages. One of the big ones is that the club
management can concentrate on gliders and tugs and not involve itself in
real estate. If there is an FBO who does a good job of providing tows at a
reasonable price, the club has only to manage its gliders which can be a
very good thing.

On the other hand, clubs with their own airfields and clubhouses seem to be
more stable in the long run. As for the price of that real estate, it has
always been "way too expensive" in current dollars and very cheap in
historical dollars. If you buy it now, sooner or later, it will look like a
cheap price.


Bill Daniels

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:54:45 -0000, Dan G > wrote:


>I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
>cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
>maintenance, fuel etc.

- Winch launch (more than 90 percent of of our launches are done with
the winch)
- no paid staff at all
- modest monthly fees (64 Euro per year for adolescents, 128 Euro/year
for adults)


.... and, what is (in my opinion), the secret:
No hourly fees for glider-usage, but any active member of the club
pays an all-inclusive price that covers ALL the winch launches and
ALL the flying time (at the moment 259 Euro/year). The only additional
costs are the costs for aerotows. A student pilots pays the same fee
as any long-time member.

http://djk-landau.de/sites/gebuehren.html


This means that even on a day without thermals there's a lot of
activity going on - and even an ASW-27 is used to fly traffic circuits
all day. Good for student pilots, too, because they can be sure that
there'll be flying activity as long as it's not raining cats and dogs.


All gliders have a full physical damage insurance.

http://djk-landau.de/sites/flugzeugpark.html


Active members: About 90 at the moment (60 when I joined the club in
1986)

In 2001 we were able to buy our airfield (which was previously
property of the French Army and was handed to the German Government
when the French left Germany after 1990) together with the second club
that flies at Landau. Each club paid about 150.000 Euro.

We don't use bank loans, but we use low-interest loans from our
members to pay new gliders and the airfield.






Bye
Andreas

[alex8735]

On 7 Okt., 17:55, Udo > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 6:54 am, Dan G > wrote:
>
> > On Oct 6, 11:04 pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>
> > > No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
> > > costs included.
> > > Lots of young people, too.
>
> > > Bye
> > > Andreas
>
> > I'll bite. How does you club make that work? If we paid the same, we'd
> > cover barely a third of the cost of our rent, insurance, staff costs,
> > maintenance, fuel etc.
>
> > Dan
>
> I have visited a few German clubs about 8-9 years ago and talked to
> the people that run those clubs. I will list what stood out in my
> mind.
>
> I noted the following with one clubhttp://www.lsgerbsloeh.de/
>
> This club is surrounded by a relative large population base.

This is a great advantage but please keep in mind that there are also
at least 6 other airfields with glider operations within a radius of
30km.

> They maximizing the use of the field.
> The Field is used to grow hay.

The grass ist always kept low for safety reasons...no good for growing
hay.

> All flying equipment is self insured but for Liability.
> The Insurance money is invested and is generating income.
> They own a single dual winch, plus one tow plane.
> When the need arises the rent additional tow planes.

I have never seen a second towplane in Langenfeld.

> They stage air events twice a year and the local population is
> invited.

Only once a year.

> This is promoted extensively. It combines an air show with active
> participation, complete food services it is common to have 20000
> visitors. It generates around 25000 Euros net for the club.
> Planning is long-term.
> The fleet is update regularly.
> The club is in the forefront of generating high calibre contest
> pilots. Also the club holds twice a year regular flying seminars which
> are attended by Dutch, Belgian and Danes that bring there own
> gliders.

As far as I know there have not been any really big seminars in the
past years.

> Within the club cross Country flying is stressed at all times.
> A limited number of none pilot, mostly teenagers about 8-10, are
> invited to join each year. If you are under the age of 16 , the
> parents are involved as to what is expect of there child,in terms of
> time and other commitments, besides the weekend flying.
> The facilities are nice which includes and indoor / outdoor
> restaurant,
> in a park like setting, which is run by the club with full services on
> the weekend, generating funds.

This is going a bit to far;-) There is no restaurant in Langenfeld and
as far as I know never has been. There are other clubs which use
restaurants as a source of income.

> Since its humble beginning in 1954 the club had to move twice and has
> been at this place for at least 35 years.
>
> All this has been accomplished over time without outside help.
> The club has received on numerous occasions the title Centre of
> excellence award.
> Udo

The club in Langenfeld has its own share of problems and definatly is
not as good as portrayed.

As far as I know German clubs are often far cheaper than US clubs
because they are struktured differently. Members are expected to do
all the work themselves. Everybody has a job to to from mowing the
gras, fleet maintenance or instructing. Maintenance only costs the
materials used. Fuel is not a problem because a winch launch barely
uses 1 lite r of diesel. Airfields are often in posession of the clubs
or cheaply leased from the city. The biggest costs in our club are
insurance costs. If you insure your fleet yourself then you can save
even more.

Flying is not really cheaper in germany. We just pay less money and
more time. A normal club member will spent about 10 half days each
year on the winch (or doing some other job on the field), is expected
to stay and keep the operation running the whole day if he wants to
participate (1hour of flying means spending the whole day at the
field) and has to work 60 - 80 hours in the winter doining maintenance
or other chores. Most clubs depent on a small number of people who are
willing to invest even more time into the club.

[Udo]

Of all the many points I made, one point was incorrect, it was 10
years ago and done from memory.

As to your contra points.
In 1998 the restaurant was real I had my launch there,
and my black forest cake and coffee in the afternoon and I paid for
it. For a visitor it looked very nice. Normally my standards are a
bit higher for a normal dining experience.

As to the second tow plane. I state it is rented when needed
It certainly was needed when I saw 30 glider lined up
at 9:00 am, half the fleet were guest and many from other countries
and it was not a contest.

Hay was being made, the rolls of bails were moved over to the side
near the fence.

As to the air event my mistake it only takes place once a year.
The annual Club booklet, that was laying about, stated the club earned
50000.00 Marks net from that event.

As for the fees, as seen on the current website
one time club entry fee E 520.00
every spring E130.00
monthly E 14.50
1 hour of flying all inclusive E 7.00
3 hours E 21.00

That would come to about E 1000.00 if you fly 100 hrs a year
Take your pick with the gliders.
I think that is a very good deal in spite of the fact you would have
to spent 75 hours a year helping maintaining the club.
I am impressed.
On the other hand, I personally would not like the highly structured
environment. I remember some one telling me at the time that
club members can buy off some of that time.

Udo

[brtlmj]

> No hourly fees for glider-usage, but any active member of the club
> pays an all-inclusive price that covers ALL the winch launches and
> ALL the flying time (at the moment 259 Euro/year).

That's significantly less than any "beginner to solo" package I have
ever seen. The total (fees plus the all-inclusive price) is also lower
than the annual fee at many clubs.
So, given that - after the fees - flying is essentially free, how do
you balance supply and demand? Time limits? Long queues on good days?

Bartek

[Jose Jimenez]

> I wonder if anyone from the US who was in the sport a while back (say
> 1950s thorugh 1970s) can explain what was different in the US.

I think the main reason is that in Germany (actually, in most European
countries), Gliding is a club activity. Only a minority of pilots own
their own glider. It's accepted that if you want to fly, you have to
show up at 09:00 in the morning and only go home when the last glider is
de-rigged and in its trailer. I'm not sure this would be compatible with
the US culture. Of course, no payed staff. And there are usually
something like 30 or 40 hours of compulsory club work, mostly spent to
work on the gliders or on other material during the winter.

Aditionally, this low price is only achieved by clubs which do mainly
winch launches. Not all clubs are lucky enough to reach their thermals
from the winch. If you have to aero tow, then add another 1000€.

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:09:46 -0700, brtlmj > wrote:

>So, given that - after the fees - flying is essentially free, how do
>you balance supply and demand? Time limits? Long queues on good days?

Yes - usually there's a time limit per flight, depending on the demand
on the glider in question (usually between on eand three hours). It's
seldom that not all of our gliders are in use.


Bye
Andreas

[alex8735]

On 8 Okt., 20:05, Udo > wrote:
> Of all the many points I made, one point was incorrect, it was 10
> years ago and done from memory.
>
> As to your contra points.
> In 1998 the restaurant was real I had my launch there,
> and my black forest cake and coffee in the afternoon and I paid for
> it. For a visitor it looked very nice. Normally my standards are a
> bit higher for a normal dining experience.
>
That must have been somwhere else or a very rare occasion;-) You can
usually get coffee, a bread bun, maybe a piece of cake or a chocklate
bar but not anything like a real meal. Only exceptions I know of are
the occasional barbecues. I guess the point you are trying to make is
that running a restaurant is a good source of additional income and I
totally agree. In Leverkusen, an airfield 15km fürther to the south
there is a small restaurant in the gliding club with a nice terrace
overlooking the field which is open to the public.

> As to the second tow plane. I state it is rented when needed
> It certainly was needed when I saw 30 glider lined up
> at 9:00 am, half the fleet were guest and many from other countries
> and it was not a contest.
>
>
> Hay was being made, the rolls of bails were moved over to the side
> near the fence.
>
I might have to agree. I took a look at a picture I made in 2004 and
there is high grass to the right of the runway http://www.kesselsweier.de/cam/langenfeld.jpg
.. I never really noticed it before.

> As to the air event my mistake it only takes place once a year.
> The annual Club booklet, that was laying about, stated the club earned
> 50000.00 Marks net from that event.
>
> As for the fees, as seen on the current website
> one time club entry fee E 520.00
> every spring E130.00
> monthly E 14.50
> 1 hour of flying all inclusive E 7.00
> 3 hours E 21.00
>
> That would come to about E 1000.00 if you fly 100 hrs a year
> Take your pick with the gliders.
> I think that is a very good deal in spite of the fact you would have
> to spent 75 hours a year helping maintaining the club.
> I am impressed.
> On the other hand, I personally would not like the highly structured
> environment. I remember some one telling me at the time that
> club members can buy off some of that time.
>
> Udo

I hope my contra points didn't sound all to offensive. I just wanted
to say that in my opinion the soaring world in germany is not as
perfect as it may seem after reading your post;-) Alltogether it is
nice to hear that you had such a good impression.

[Papa3]

On Oct 8, 2:49 pm, José Jiménez <nospam@please> wrote:
> > I wonder if anyone from the US who was in the sport a while back (say
> > 1950s thorugh 1970s) can explain what was different in the US.
>
> I think the main reason is that in Germany (actually, in most European
> countries), Gliding is a club activity. Only a minority of pilots own
> their own glider. It's accepted that if you want to fly, you have to
> show up at 09:00 in the morning and only go home when the last glider is
> de-rigged and in its trailer. I'm not sure this would be compatible with
> the US culture. Of course, no payed staff. And there are usually
> something like 30 or 40 hours of compulsory club work, mostly spent to
> work on the gliders or on other material during the winter.
>
> Aditionally, this low price is only achieved by clubs which do mainly
> winch launches. Not all clubs are lucky enough to reach their thermals
> from the winch. If you have to aero tow, then add another 1000€.

That's not all that different from many/most US Clubs. There are
actually a significant number of them, and they all require some form
of "sweat equity" including things like:

- Maintenance
- Instructing
- Giving intro rides
- Field operations officer
- etc.

So far, the two biggest things I'm hearing that are different are:

a) Winch launching
b) Property ownership

Since "a" tends to require "b", is it really all about winch
launching?

P3

[Jose Jimenez]

Papa3 wrote:

> So far, the two biggest things I'm hearing that are different are:
>
> a) Winch launching
> b) Property ownership
>
> Since "a" tends to require "b",

It does not at all.

> is it really all about winch launching?

It is a big factor. A winch launch is about 5$ while an aerotow tends to
be between 40$ and 50$, depending on the circumstances.

And then there's the fleet. A club with, say, 100 members and maybe 2
ASK 13, 3 Ka8, and 2 LS4 tends to have a different price structure than
a club with 50 Members and 1 DG 1000, 1 Duo Discus, 1 ASK 21, 3 LS4 and
3 LS8. Don't take these numbers literally, but there are huge
differences in the fleets.

And there are huge differences in the member fees, too. Personally, I
don't fly for 600€/year. I guess it's rather around 2500€/year, but I've
never dared to really do the math. For this price I do between 70 and
100 hours on advanced club plastic.

[Torsten Beyer]

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:33:36 +0200, alex8735 wrote
(in article om>):

> On 7 Okt., 17:55, Udo > wrote:
[lots of stuff deleted]

> Flying is not really cheaper in germany. We just pay less money and
> more time. A normal club member will spent about 10 half days each
> year on the winch (or doing some other job on the field), is expected
> to stay and keep the operation running the whole day if he wants to
> participate (1hour of flying means spending the whole day at the
> field) and has to work 60 - 80 hours in the winter doining maintenance
> or other chores. Most clubs depent on a small number of people who are
> willing to invest even more time into the club.

I think this really is the key. In our club a winch launch is ¤3.50, a minute
flying between ¤0.20 - ¤0.50 capped at 3hrs, towing w/ our Piper Super Cup is
about ¤3,-/minute and there is a monthly fee of around ¤30. This is the cash
component.

Now if we work less than 50hrs per year, then there is an extra ¤500 to be
paid to the club. In addition between 50+ and 100hrs per year the charge for
flying is multiplied between 1,5 (@50 hrs) and 1 (@100hrs). Up to 150 hrs you
can further reduce your flying charges to a factor of 0,5.

This keeps the cash involvement down for those who do not have that much to
spend - mostly our students and pupils - and for those who have cash but no
time, it offers an opportunity to fly without the chores of beeing tied to
the winch for half a weekend 10x per year. The downside, of course, is that
most of the upkeep of the actual flight operations is carried by the younger
ones - often those w/ the least experience.

Now if you compare that pricing against a commercial gliding operation (e.g.
at the Wasserkuppe), the extra charges they charge more or less match the
"work component" involved in flying in a club.

So bottomline seems to be this: flying in Germany seems to have the same cost
(more or less) wherever you go. As long as you fly within a club environment,
you can replace cash with sweat and time. That's what makes it LOOK cheap.

my ¤0.02

Torsten

[rlovinggood]

Andreas belongs to a WONDERFUL club in a beautiful part of Germany
(what part isn't beautiful?). It's in the Rhine valley, although it's
a few kilometers from the river, probably dozens. But it's almost
surrounded by vineyards. Riesling, mostly, I guess.

Of course, I haven't been there in WAY TOO LONG, but my memories are
nothing but the fondest.

Duties for this club member were to help other students launch and
retrieve gliders. We did it all by manual labor, no golf carts or
tractors or cars to go retrieve the Ka7 that landed long down the
runway. Just a bunch of kids getting their daily workout of pushing
the glider back. There was kitchen duty for some members too. I
don't know where this club got all their members, but the ones in the
kitchen knew how to make GREAT meals. They took one look at me and
"allowed" me in the kitchen only once.

Time restrictions on a glider? I don't remember being told, but I do
know when I was flying the K8 or the Standard Astir, there was usually
nobody else waiting, and I could fly as long as I wanted. If anyone
complained, I never knew about it.

I know the knowledgeable members did maintenance on everything, from
the winch to the towplane to the gliders and to the clubhouse. I
always thought the club was pretty self-sufficient. Once, I wondered
why the clubhouse had an "electic" shape. Not square or rectangular,
but many-sided with a lot of glass. I was told the large picture
windows were donated and they built the club house to make use of the
big glass. Oh, it was great!

The club probably made some money on the meals they served, with the
largest meal served Saturday nights and a large meal offered on
Sunday's at noon. Also, they served cake and coffee around 1600 hrs
on Saturday and Sunday. The club did not operate during the week.

As previously mentioned, we payed yearly dues which covered the costs
of winching and flying. Only aero tows were extra. Since I launched
mainly with the winch, I didn't have to pay much extra. This was
during the mid 1980's, when the dollar to Mark hit a high of 3.47:1, I
think. You don't want to know how much an LS4 with a Cobra would have
cost in dollars.

Yea, I'm sure a winch would help our club reduce it's costs. Wish we
had a good one! With a good Lepo!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Former Member, DJK Segelfluggemeinschaft, Landau

On Oct 8, 5:41 pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:09:46 -0700, brtlmj > wrote:
> >So, given that - after the fees - flying is essentially free, how do
> >you balance supply and demand? Time limits? Long queues on good days?
>
> Yes - usually there's a time limit per flight, depending on the demand
> on the glider in question (usually between on eand three hours). It's
> seldom that not all of our gliders are in use.
>
> Bye
> Andreas

[toad]

On Oct 8, 12:33 pm, alex8735 > wrote:
....snip...
> As far as I know German clubs are often far cheaper than US clubs
> because they are struktured differently. Members are expected to do
> all the work themselves. Everybody has a job to to from mowing the
> gras, fleet maintenance or instructing. Maintenance only costs the
> materials used. Fuel is not a problem because a winch launch barely
> uses 1 lite r of diesel. Airfields are often in posession of the clubs
> or cheaply leased from the city. The biggest costs in our club are
> insurance costs. If you insure your fleet yourself then you can save
> even more.
>
> Flying is not really cheaper in germany. We just pay less money and
> more time. A normal club member will spent about 10 half days each
> year on the winch (or doing some other job on the field), is expected
> to stay and keep the operation running the whole day if he wants to
> participate (1hour of flying means spending the whole day at the
> field) and has to work 60 - 80 hours in the winter doining maintenance
> or other chores. Most clubs depent on a small number of people who are
> willing to invest even more time into the club.

This is how my US club is structured, but we still pay high dues
($800-1300/year).

We have no paid staff. Club members mow grass, fix buildings, fly
towplanes, launch gliders, whatever.

We pay for towplane and glider maintenance, insurance, fuel.
We also have to pay for the airport we bought 5 years ago, at market
rates, not cheaply and have to keep the hangers and whatnot up.

None of the US clubs that I know pay anybody to do anything, we do it
ourselves and it's still expensive.

I think it's for 2 reasons.
- Paying for towplanes
- Paying for land

Todd Smith
3S

[Jose Jimenez]

> This is how my US club is structured, but we still pay high dues
> ($800-1300/year).

Most European clubs are not cheaper.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 06:31:47 -0700, rlovinggood
> wrote:


>
>Ray Lovinggood
>Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>Former Member, DJK Segelfluggemeinschaft, Landau


Hi Ray,

things haven't changed at all (apart from the fact that nowadays we
host several private gliders and have plenty of flying during the
week).
The club house has grown considerably (we needed more room - and
finally could afford to buy new windows!), the quality of the meals
still depends on the cook (are they are made by 16-year-olds or a
professional cook... err... wive...).

When did you say you come to Europe again? :)

Bye
Andreas

[brtlmj]

> Yes - usually there's a time limit per flight, depending on the demand
> on the glider in question (usually between one and three hours).

Not bad. How many flights can a club member expect to get on a typical
soarable Saturday?

Bartek

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 08:57:40 -0700, brtlmj > wrote:

>> Yes - usually there's a time limit per flight, depending on the demand
>> on the glider in question (usually between one and three hours).
>
>Not bad. How many flights can a club member expect to get on a typical
>soarable Saturday?

One.
Wich is as long as his comrades allow. :)

Student pilots who still fly with an instructor typically get between
one and three flights on a Saturday.



Bye
Andreas

[weersch]

I started flying and got my license in the Netherlands. Pretty much the same story as already stated by many others above. Around 1994, 600Euro's per year, no launch charges (except for aero tow), no hourly charges, 40 work hours mandatory per year.
Morning sessions were training sessions with 1 hour max, Afternoon sessions were XC with revolving allocation of the XC fleet.
On a good day I managed to get 5 launches in. The first 4 early in the morning training sled rides. The 5th often after noon when the lift started.
I did around 100 take-off per year. (my currency was much better then it is now)

There was only 1 commercial operator in the Netherlands. All clubs were supported by the military in the far past. They got winches and fuel and other military surplus. (like start line vehicle) Some clubs are still mixed public /military clubs.
Reason for the military support: The Dutch airforce recruited many of the kids with good elementary flying skills.
Many clubs are still located at military (or ex-military) bases. The subsidies are pretty much gone I think, but there is still the advantage of closed airfield, guarded parking maybe even a donated jerrycan of diesel for the winch.

I now fly in California at lets say "an increased spending level"
But then, for a flatlander flying over Lake Tahoe remains a special experience.

Hans Van Weersch