A Sad Accident

[RL Anderson]

Greetings All,

Thought I'd pass on that there has been a horrific crash this past
Sunday (7 Oct). There was a Caravan used for skydiving, with 10 people
aboard, traveling between Star Idaho and Shelton Washington. The
airplane went down in the general vicinity of White Pass, a 4500 foot
mountain pass on US 12, located on the boundary of Yakima and Lewis
Counties, in the South Central Washington Cascade Mountains. According
to local news, no survivors have been found. I am acquainted with
several skydivers and some of the other folks at the aircraft owner,
Skydive Kapowsin. I hope that none of the folks I know are involved.

Here are some links to the story.

> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013970261411

> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013901892319

Pass on as you see fit.

Rick

[[email protected]]

On Oct 9, 10:52 am, RL Anderson > wrote:
> Greetings All,
>
> Thought I'd pass on that there has been a horrific crash this past
> Sunday (7 Oct). There was a Caravan used for skydiving, with 10 people
> aboard, traveling between Star Idaho and Shelton Washington. The
> airplane went down in the general vicinity of White Pass, a 4500 foot
> mountain pass on US 12, located on the boundary of Yakima and Lewis
> Counties, in the South Central Washington Cascade Mountains. According
> to local news, no survivors have been found. I am acquainted with
> several skydivers and some of the other folks at the aircraft owner,
> Skydive Kapowsin. I hope that none of the folks I know are involved.
>
> Here are some links to the story.
>
> >http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013970261411
> >http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013901892319
>
> Pass on as you see fit.
>
> Rick

Do you have any idea what the weather was like at the time of the
crash? Why was he so low? Was he scud running?

I was thinking that if it had been an engine failure at altitude, the
passenges would have bailed out with their chutes, given that they
were experienced skydivers.

[Allen[_1_]]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 9, 10:52 am, RL Anderson > wrote:
>> Greetings All,
>>
>> Thought I'd pass on that there has been a horrific crash this past
>> Sunday (7 Oct). There was a Caravan used for skydiving, with 10 people
>> aboard, traveling between Star Idaho and Shelton Washington. The
>> airplane went down in the general vicinity of White Pass, a 4500 foot
>> mountain pass on US 12, located on the boundary of Yakima and Lewis
>> Counties, in the South Central Washington Cascade Mountains. According
>> to local news, no survivors have been found. I am acquainted with
>> several skydivers and some of the other folks at the aircraft owner,
>> Skydive Kapowsin. I hope that none of the folks I know are involved.
>>
>> Here are some links to the story.
>>
>> >http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013970261411
>> >http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013901892319
>>
>> Pass on as you see fit.
>>
>> Rick
>
> Do you have any idea what the weather was like at the time of the
> crash? Why was he so low? Was he scud running?
>
> I was thinking that if it had been an engine failure at altitude, the
> passenges would have bailed out with their chutes, given that they
> were experienced skydivers.
>

The tail section was not with the main wreckage and as of last night had not
been found. In-flight break-up? That would explain the three missing
jumpers too.

--

*H. Allen Smith*
WACO - We are all here, because we are not all there.

[Bob Gardner]

All we have is press reports at present, and you know how reliable they are.
Comments from the skydivers club indicate that on a cross-country like this
they would take off their chutes and use them as pillows. Last two radar
hits indicated a vertical speed of 7000 fpm, which is not conducive to
leaving the airplane, to say the least.

The tail was found some distance from the main wreckage; the Caravan has
icing issues. Related? I can't say.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 9, 10:52 am, RL Anderson > wrote:
>> Greetings All,
>>
>> Thought I'd pass on that there has been a horrific crash this past
>> Sunday (7 Oct). There was a Caravan used for skydiving, with 10 people
>> aboard, traveling between Star Idaho and Shelton Washington. The
>> airplane went down in the general vicinity of White Pass, a 4500 foot
>> mountain pass on US 12, located on the boundary of Yakima and Lewis
>> Counties, in the South Central Washington Cascade Mountains. According
>> to local news, no survivors have been found. I am acquainted with
>> several skydivers and some of the other folks at the aircraft owner,
>> Skydive Kapowsin. I hope that none of the folks I know are involved.
>>
>> Here are some links to the story.
>>
>> >http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013970261411
>> >http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013901892319
>>
>> Pass on as you see fit.
>>
>> Rick
>
> Do you have any idea what the weather was like at the time of the
> crash? Why was he so low? Was he scud running?
>
> I was thinking that if it had been an engine failure at altitude, the
> passenges would have bailed out with their chutes, given that they
> were experienced skydivers.
>

[Dale[_3_]]

In article >,
"Bob Gardner" > wrote:

> All we have is press reports at present, and you know how reliable they are.
> Comments from the skydivers club indicate that on a cross-country like this
> they would take off their chutes and use them as pillows. Last two radar
> hits indicated a vertical speed of 7000 fpm, which is not conducive to
> leaving the airplane, to say the least.

A jumper in freefall is descending at around 12000 fpm so the speed
alone wouldn't be a big deal...and out of control airplane could make it
hard to get out.

[Bob Gardner]

Freefall is a lot different than being pinned in a pile of bodies in the aft
end of the cabin by acceleration forces. I doubt that they were even able to
move, once the dive began.

Bob Gardner

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>
>> All we have is press reports at present, and you know how reliable they
>> are.
>> Comments from the skydivers club indicate that on a cross-country like
>> this
>> they would take off their chutes and use them as pillows. Last two radar
>> hits indicated a vertical speed of 7000 fpm, which is not conducive to
>> leaving the airplane, to say the least.
>
> A jumper in freefall is descending at around 12000 fpm so the speed
> alone wouldn't be a big deal...and out of control airplane could make it
> hard to get out.

[Dale[_3_]]

In article >,
"Bob Gardner" > wrote:

> Freefall is a lot different than being pinned in a pile of bodies in the aft
> end of the cabin by acceleration forces. I doubt that they were even able to
> move, once the dive began.
>

I understand that, IF they were out of control. I descended at
3000-4000fpm in a 206 and kept the engine warm. It wouldn't be
unreasonable to think they could reach 7000fpm without being out of
control...although it does sound like a spiral descent with inflight
breakup. I'm reading they found the tail section some distance away.
Not the way I want to die.

[M[_1_]]

On Oct 9, 1:32 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> All we have is press reports at present, and you know how reliable they are.


That's true. However I live in Seattle metro area and the weather
that day was very bad. It was one of those northwest winter stormy
days where you can pretty much expect bad icing over the Cascades, and
very non-VFR conditions over the mountains. Just about the only way
to safely fly over the Cascades on those days would be IFR in known-
ice certified airplanes with a lot of power.

Wind + lots of moisture in the airmass + mountain range = uplift and
very bad icing.

[[email protected]]

Story on icing conditions possibly being behind the crash:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct0907-cessna_problems.1554abe71.html

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Story on icing conditions possibly being behind the crash:
>
> http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct0907-cessna_problems.1554abe71.html

That story reads as if it were written by Cessna's competitors. It makes it
sound as if it's Cessna's fault if someone crashes after flying into icing
conditions. It creates the impression that an airplane that cannot fly
continuously in icing conditions is somehow defective and that the
manufacturer needs to warn pilots about the dangers of the aircraft.

This is very different from the notion of it being a very bad idea for any
pilot to flying into icing conditions, with or without an airplane certified
to enter them (and continuous flight in icing conditions is not the same as
being able to tolerate them briefly).

Someone either wants to direct all blame away from the crew or wants to damage
the reputation of Cessna.

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 10 Oct, 20:06, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > Story on icing conditions possibly being behind the crash:
>
> >http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct0907-cessna_proble...
>
> That story reads as if it were written by Cessna's competitors. It makes it
> sound as if it's Cessna's fault if someone crashes after flying into icing
> conditions. It creates the impression that an airplane that cannot fly
> continuously in icing conditions is somehow defective and that the
> manufacturer needs to warn pilots about the dangers of the aircraft.
>
> This is very different from the notion of it being a very bad idea for any
> pilot to flying into icing conditions, with or without an airplane certified
> to enter them (and continuous flight in icing conditions is not the same as
> being able to tolerate them briefly).
>

How would you know fjukkwit?


You don't fly.


Bertie

[Morgans[_2_]]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Story on icing conditions possibly being behind the crash:
>
> http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct0907-cessna_problems.1554abe71.html

Isn't 10 onboard a Malabu a bit much, with parachutes for even more weight?
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:06:09 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Story on icing conditions possibly being behind the crash:
>>
>> http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct0907-cessna_problems.1554abe71.html
>
>Isn't 10 onboard a Malabu a bit much, with parachutes for even more weight?

Where did it say it was a Malibu?

[Dale[_3_]]

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Story on icing conditions possibly being behind the crash:
> >
> > http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct0907-cessna_problems.1554
> > abe71.html
>
> Isn't 10 onboard a Malabu a bit much, with parachutes for even more weight?

Aircraft was a Cessna 208B Caravan. That airplane routinely hauls 18 or
19 jumpers.

[Bob Gardner]

I was just going to post a correction, because the last news I saw said that
the tail had not been found. The sheriff described the accident scene as
pretty much a lawn dart, although he didn't use those words....60 by 100
feet.

Bob Gardner

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>
>> Freefall is a lot different than being pinned in a pile of bodies in the
>> aft
>> end of the cabin by acceleration forces. I doubt that they were even able
>> to
>> move, once the dive began.
>>
>
> I understand that, IF they were out of control. I descended at
> 3000-4000fpm in a 206 and kept the engine warm. It wouldn't be
> unreasonable to think they could reach 7000fpm without being out of
> control...although it does sound like a spiral descent with inflight
> breakup. I'm reading they found the tail section some distance away.
> Not the way I want to die.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 10, 7:55 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> I was just going to post a correction, because the last news I saw said that
> the tail had not been found. The sheriff described the accident scene as
> pretty much a lawn dart, although he didn't use those words....60 by 100
> feet.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Dale" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > In article >,
> > "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>
> >> Freefall is a lot different than being pinned in a pile of bodies in the
> >> aft
> >> end of the cabin by acceleration forces. I doubt that they were even able
> >> to
> >> move, once the dive began.
>
> > I understand that, IF they were out of control. I descended at
> > 3000-4000fpm in a 206 and kept the engine warm. It wouldn't be
> > unreasonable to think they could reach 7000fpm without being out of
> > control...although it does sound like a spiral descent with inflight
> > breakup. I'm reading they found the tail section some distance away.
> > Not the way I want to die.

The Caravan does not carry ice well. There's an airworthiness
directive against it for that reason. See
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgAD.nsf/0/243AECE0725E4009862572DE0050A037?OpenDocument

Dan

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Peter Clark" <> wrote

> Where did it say it was a Malibu?

My bad. I thought I heard that is what it was. It was a Caravan?
--
Jim in NC

[Dale[_3_]]

In article >,
"Bob Gardner" > wrote:

> I was just going to post a correction, because the last news I saw said that
> the tail had not been found. The sheriff described the accident scene as
> pretty much a lawn dart, although he didn't use those words....60 by 100
> feet.
>

I saw that same Sheriff quoted as saying the aircraft impacted at "70
mph". <G>

[Bob Gardner]

He filed a VFR flight plan, cheating the media out of an opportunity to
blame the crash on the lack of a flight plan, and didn't pop up for an IFR
clearance. White Pass, five miles from the crash site, was reporting 33
degrees F.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Story on icing conditions possibly being behind the crash:
>
> http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct0907-cessna_problems.1554abe71.html
>

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-10-09 13:05:28 -0700, "Allen" > said:

>
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Oct 9, 10:52 am, RL Anderson > wrote:
>>> Greetings All,
>>>
>>> Thought I'd pass on that there has been a horrific crash this past
>>> Sunday (7 Oct). There was a Caravan used for skydiving, with 10 people
>>> aboard, traveling between Star Idaho and Shelton Washington. The
>>> airplane went down in the general vicinity of White Pass, a 4500 foot
>>> mountain pass on US 12, located on the boundary of Yakima and Lewis
>>> Counties, in the South Central Washington Cascade Mountains. According
>>> to local news, no survivors have been found. I am acquainted with
>>> several skydivers and some of the other folks at the aircraft owner,
>>> Skydive Kapowsin. I hope that none of the folks I know are involved.
>>>
>>> Here are some links to the story.
>>>
>>>> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013970261411
>>>> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013901892319
>>>
>>> Pass on as you see fit.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>
>> Do you have any idea what the weather was like at the time of the
>> crash? Why was he so low? Was he scud running?
>>
>> I was thinking that if it had been an engine failure at altitude, the
>> passenges would have bailed out with their chutes, given that they
>> were experienced skydivers.
>>
>
> The tail section was not with the main wreckage and as of last night had not
> been found. In-flight break-up? That would explain the three missing
> jumpers too.

The news reports that the tail section was missing were erroneous. The
tail section was found with the rest of the plane.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-10-09 09:52:32 -0700, RL Anderson > said:

> Greetings All,
>
> Thought I'd pass on that there has been a horrific crash this past
> Sunday (7 Oct). There was a Caravan used for skydiving, with 10 people
> aboard, traveling between Star Idaho and Shelton Washington. The
> airplane went down in the general vicinity of White Pass, a 4500 foot
> mountain pass on US 12, located on the boundary of Yakima and Lewis
> Counties, in the South Central Washington Cascade Mountains. According
> to local news, no survivors have been found. I am acquainted with
> several skydivers and some of the other folks at the aircraft owner,
> Skydive Kapowsin. I hope that none of the folks I know are involved.
>
> Here are some links to the story.
>
>> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013970261411
>
>> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013901892319
>
> Pass on as you see fit.
>
> Rick

This is a well-known airplane. I know people who have considerable time
in this very plane. It has boots, but it is not certified for known
ice. IIRC, this particular plane does not have prop deice. The boots
are good for about three shots at getting rid of ice. The pilot was
flying VFR just above the freezing level in rainy weather. He was
squawking 1200 and not talking to anyone at the time.

It is probable he was on autopilot. If the plane was icing up, he might
not have noticed the spinning trim wheel attempting to maintain
altitude. By the time he did notice it, it might well have been too
late. Other Caravans have been lost in just this manner.

The icing conditions in these mountains are some of the worst in the
world. The FAA calls it the Great North Cascades Ice Machine. It is
well named. The weather is unpredictable and in passes like White Pass
can change very suddenly. You think you are just motoring along in the
dark at a safe altitude and it is very easy to become complacent. In
fact, I don't know a pilot in the world who, tired, flying on
autopilot, listening to the drone of the engine, etc., is not likely to
lose focus. At night you can fly into a weather system and never know
it. I know several pilots who were surprised to learn that they had
been in clouds for a long time, perhaps hours.

Weather conditions at the time appear to have been nearly perfect for
an icing accident. Of course, that is how the weather is most of the
time there. It is a rotten place to fly single pilot at night.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-10-09 09:52:32 -0700, RL Anderson > said:

> Greetings All,
>
> Thought I'd pass on that there has been a horrific crash this past
> Sunday (7 Oct). There was a Caravan used for skydiving, with 10 people
> aboard, traveling between Star Idaho and Shelton Washington. The
> airplane went down in the general vicinity of White Pass, a 4500 foot
> mountain pass on US 12, located on the boundary of Yakima and Lewis
> Counties, in the South Central Washington Cascade Mountains. According
> to local news, no survivors have been found. I am acquainted with
> several skydivers and some of the other folks at the aircraft owner,
> Skydive Kapowsin. I hope that none of the folks I know are involved.
>
> Here are some links to the story.
>
>> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013970261411
>
>> http://www.herald-republic.com/page/dis/290013901892319
>
> Pass on as you see fit.
>
> Rick

Latest reports from NW Cable News are:

"The Cessna Caravan was flying to Shelton from Boise, Idaho under
Visual Flight Rules at night.

Radar shows the plane was flying at 13,000 feet.* Everything appeared
fine as the Cessna was about to cross the Cascade crest into western
Washington.
Then, the plane turned north for about a minute.* It made a tight 360
degree turn, and then dropped 1,400 feet in just 12 seconds.* It
recovered to its original altitude and held it for 10 to 20 seconds.*
About a minute later, it hit the ground.
But then the plane turns to the north for about a minute.*
Two witnesses in the valley said they heard the plane's engine rev as
it apparently tried to maintain altitude.
Weather recorded at White Pass Sunday night was listed as in the 30s,
with light precipitation, raising the possibility of icing -- something
the plane was equipped to handle.
"It has de-icing boots on the wings," said Mike Robertson, FAA safety
investigator.* "It also has de-ice boots on the prop blades, as well as
de-icing capability on the engine itself. *At this point, we see that
the boots are there.""
Odd. The plane hits the ground, but then it turns to the north for
about a minute. Or maybe it was just bad editing. :)
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:

>
> I was thinking that if it had been an engine failure at altitude, the
> passenges would have bailed out with their chutes, given that they
> were experienced skydivers.
>

They weren't planning on jumping from that plane. They were enroute
from an event. The chutes were probably stowed.

Even if they had them on, the record of skydivers managing to get out of
a failing jump plane in an emergency isn't too good.

[Dale[_3_]]

In article >,
Ron Natalie > wrote:


> Even if they had them on, the record of skydivers managing to get out of
> a failing jump plane in an emergency isn't too good.

That's probably because the record mostly contains only those incidents
that ended badly.

Been there, done that...lived to tell the tale...from both perspectives.

But as you pointed out in this instance with it being a night ferry
flight most probably didn't have their rigs on.

[[email protected]]

Preliminary report indicates VFR into IFR and disorientation:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct1807-skydiver_plane.1830b1608.html

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-10-18 15:48:15 -0700, said:

> Preliminary report indicates VFR into IFR and disorientation:
>
> http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct1807-skydiver_plane.1830b1608.html

Maybe.
>
But usually these things are flown on autopilot and autopilots do not
become disoriented that way. I will stick with the icing scenario: it
iced up and the autopilot kept spinning the trim to compensate until it
could not compensate any more. Then they stalled, spun and crashed.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[RL Anderson]

wrote:
> Preliminary report indicates VFR into IFR and disorientation:
>
> http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct1807-skydiver_plane.1830b1608.html
>

Thanks for the link. here's the NTSB link:

> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071017X01609&key=1

Rick

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

RL Anderson wrote:
>> Preliminary report indicates VFR into IFR and disorientation:

>Thanks for the link. here's the NTSB link:
>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071017X01609&key=1
>
>Rick

debris field 60' x 100'. O_o

Bless 'em.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200710/1

[[email protected]]

On Oct 18, 8:41 pm, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> On 2007-10-18 15:48:15 -0700, said:
>
> > Preliminary report indicates VFR into IFR and disorientation:
>
> >http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-oct1807-skydiver_plan...
>
> Maybe.
>
> But usually these things are flown on autopilot and autopilots do not
> become disoriented that way. I will stick with the icing scenario: it
> iced up and the autopilot kept spinning the trim to compensate until it
> could not compensate any more. Then they stalled, spun and crashed.
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor

CJ,

I tend to agree with you, but this will probably be one of those cases
that isn't ever conclusively resolved.

I wonder why he didn't convert to IFR or fly through the gorge if he
wanted to stay VFR... flying into clouds in the Cascades this time of
year is a bad idea unless you have really good anti-ice systems. He
should have either gone over the weather and then descended through
the layer IFR on the West side of the Cascades, or gone under it via
the big green tunnel that is the Columbia River gorge.

Dean

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

Why would someone from that area, presumably familiar with local
weather and mountain conditions, fly at night if weather was not
perfect?

Ron Lee