Future in Aviation for my Son?

[Jay Honeck]

As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
and into his cross-country flights.

He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)

He's now toying with the idea of a career in aviation. Possibilities
include:

- Commercial pilot
- Helicopter pilot
- Something on the business side of aviation.

I need some first-hand experiences, please. Hours worked, what to
expect at the entry level, how much college does your job require,
types of skills required, etc. What kinds of careers are out there
right now? What sort of college degree should a 17 year old pursue in
order to come out the other end with a successful job in aviation?

We're filling out applications for colleges, and his choice of
colleges will be steered by his decisions. Your input is very much
appreciated!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.
>
> He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)

Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.

[Tom Conner]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> > and into his cross-country flights.
> >
> > He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> > rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> > but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> > he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>

Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
spreadsheet.

[BT]

His "timing" may just be right.. 4yr college degree at an aviation college,
get it in management of some type, or engineering may be better and get the
ratings... the "bottom of the food chain" is being sucked dry around here.

Used to be the local "ditch runners" flying turbo props for tourists to the
Grand Canyon required 1500hrs total time and 500 multi
now they are taking 500hr pilots with a Commercial Multi Instrument to "ride
right seat", entry level wages at $15-16K. Move up to Captain in a couple of
years at double the wage.

The entry level positions are open, because those Captains with experience
are being sucked into the regional's as everyone moves up the food chain
with the SBBP (Senior Baby Boomer Pilots) facing mandatory retirement at
age. Did I see a report last week that the first of the Baby Boomers are now
Medicare and Social Security eligible?

Most of our local "young CFIs" are coming from three places, staying about
12-18 months and moving on.

UND, University of North Dakota, Grand Forks ND
ERAU, Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, Prescott AZ
Utah State University, Logan UT,
http://www.usu.edu/majorsheets/04-05/Pilot04.pdf

One of my co-workers son completed the Utah State program and stayed as an
instructor and is doing very well.
BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.
>
> He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> He's now toying with the idea of a career in aviation. Possibilities
> include:
>
> - Commercial pilot
> - Helicopter pilot
> - Something on the business side of aviation.
>
> I need some first-hand experiences, please. Hours worked, what to
> expect at the entry level, how much college does your job require,
> types of skills required, etc. What kinds of careers are out there
> right now? What sort of college degree should a 17 year old pursue in
> order to come out the other end with a successful job in aviation?
>
> We're filling out applications for colleges, and his choice of
> colleges will be steered by his decisions. Your input is very much
> appreciated!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[OH Boy!]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.
>
> He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> He's now toying with the idea of a career in aviation. Possibilities
> include:
>
> - Commercial pilot
> - Helicopter pilot
> - Something on the business side of aviation.
>
> I need some first-hand experiences, please. Hours worked, what to
> expect at the entry level, how much college does your job require,
> types of skills required, etc. What kinds of careers are out there
> right now? What sort of college degree should a 17 year old pursue in
> order to come out the other end with a successful job in aviation?
>
> We're filling out applications for colleges, and his choice of
> colleges will be steered by his decisions. Your input is very much
> appreciated!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Maybe the field of commercial aviation may be OK but tell
him to stay away from the FAA or any aviation related
Government employment here in America if he is a
heterosexual white male.

There is absolutely no future in American Government service
or American big business unless he is:

1. Gay
2. A Black Female
3. An Overweight white female with nose warts

I would encourage him to pursue flying with a foreign
airline and learn another language maybe Chinese.

[Jim Logajan]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)

What type of engineering was he interested in?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 10, 7:07 pm, "Tom Conner" > wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>
> > On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > > As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> > > and into his cross-country flights.
>
> > > He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> > > rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> > > but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> > > he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> > Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>
> Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> spreadsheet.

Uh, I'm an engineer with mulitple patents AND an MBA. No shortage of
jobs here in the U.S.. I get calls frequently. Lots of companies are
having a very, very hard time filling recs in the U.S. There just
aren't enough engineers. We have people getting hired right out of
school and getting relocation packages to move across the country. Its
pretty slim pickings for employeers out there.

-Robert'

[Union Thug]

On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.

Yea we know. You flood usnet with every little thing that goes on in
your life (G).
>
> He's now toying with the idea of a career in aviation. Possibilities
> include:
>
> - Commercial pilot
> - Helicopter pilot
> - Something on the business side of aviation.

All kidding aside, I can only help you with the first option. Airline
pilots make less $$$$ now than they did 10 or 20 years ago (Not
complaining here, I am sure this is true of many ocupations) . And the
future is bleak. Add to this the complete lack of benifits packages at
most carriers and it is not a career path most airline guys will
recommend.
>
> I need some first-hand experiences, please. Hours worked, what to
> expect at the entry level, how much college does your job require,
> types of skills required, etc. What kinds of careers are out there
> right now? What sort of college degree should a 17 year old pursue in
> order to come out the other end with a successful job in aviation?

As far as college; Tell your boy to do what ever he wants but stay
away from most of theses aviation colleges ESPECIALLY Embry Riddle. I
have known many who have graduated from there and I have never heard
anyone say anything good about the place. Their people are ALLWAYS the
last to get hired (This is not a big deal when times are good, but
when thing slow down your boy could be tending bar for years).

Jay Honeck
IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 10, 8:30 pm, Richard Riley > wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:07:20 -0700, "Tom Conner" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >> On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> >> > As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> >> > and into his cross-country flights.
>
> >> > He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> >> > rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> >> > but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> >> > he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> >> Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>
> >Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> >some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> >spreadsheet.
>
> Become an engineer
>
> Get an MBA
>
> Become a VP of engineering.

Not everyone is that smart. I guess we need to keep jobs around for
those with less intellect.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 10, 7:10 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> His "timing" may just be right.. 4yr college degree at an aviation college,
> get it in management of some type, or engineering may be better and get the
> ratings... the "bottom of the food chain" is being sucked dry around here.
>
> Used to be the local "ditch runners" flying turbo props for tourists to the
> Grand Canyon required 1500hrs total time and 500 multi
> now they are taking 500hr pilots with a Commercial Multi Instrument to "ride
> right seat", entry level wages at $15-16K. Move up to Captain in a couple of
> years at double the wage.
>
> The entry level positions are open, because those Captains with experience
> are being sucked into the regional's as everyone moves up the food chain
> with the SBBP (Senior Baby Boomer Pilots) facing mandatory retirement at
> age. Did I see a report last week that the first of the Baby Boomers are now
> Medicare and Social Security eligible?

Pilots with experience are also getting lured overseas with high wages
to help start new national airlines around the world.

[TheSmokingGnu]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.

> We're filling out applications for colleges, and his choice of
> colleges will be steered by his decisions. Your input is very much
> appreciated!

While I can't comment on the rest, having recently been in largely the
same position as your son with regards to college, let me extoll my
opinions.

Is he at all interested in the humanities or in language, that sort of
thing? Almost all B.A's and even some B.S.' can be earned without a
heavy background in math (although I suppose he realizes that he will
have to take at least a few GE math courses). I initially started my
current college with a chem major, but have decided against the math and
have chosen linguistics because my other great passion (besides flying!)
is language. See if he likes that type of subject matter better than
math. Or, you could see about some of the aviation-related fields, like ATC.

With regard to choice of college, that's a bit more difficult without a
strict major chosen; a general 4-year university (or, as I have hit upon
to save loads of cash, 2 years of community college and a transfer; $600
a semester instead of $10,000) might suffice with a more general set of
interests.

There is one thing I will tell you: keep that boy away from ERAU, in all
its forms. That place (and I should know, having spent an interminable
semester there) is a maelstrom of poor piloting and vacuous costs. The
choice of majors is slim, the curriculum is drab, the piloting practices
are atrocious, it costs several arms and legs, and the surrounding
community (at least the Prescott campus) is utterly unbecoming of a
college town. There's a reason their first-semester drop rate is over
60%, and it's not because there are that many stupid people, if you
catch my drift. I'll spare you the details, but suffice to say he'd be
very disappointed if he attended there.

That said, a number of my friends are apparently quite enjoying the ATC
program at UND, even 2 years on, so considering an "aviation" college
might not be a bad idea, either.

TheSmokingGnu

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Union Thug" > wrote

> As far as college; Tell your boy to do what ever he wants but stay
> away from most of theses aviation colleges ESPECIALLY Embry Riddle.

You -seriously- need to work on your posting skills. I eliminated the way
you responded, so I would not be making the same mistake you did, but you
left Jay's sig lines right after the paragraph this quote (above) started.
It makes it way to easy to think that Jay wrote it.

As far as slow times go, there will be no slow times for Joe (or any other
qualified pilots) in the 5 or 6 years it will take to get him ready. They
will be trying to find trained monkeys to be pilots by then.

The fears about pensions can be said about -any- job in this day and age.
No profession is safe. That is one reason there are people funding their
own retirements.
--
Jim in NC

[Ricky]

On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:

> We're filling out applications for colleges, and his choice of
> colleges will be steered by his decisions. Your input is very much
> appreciated!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

My nephew recently graduated from Baylor University's (Waco, Tx.)
Aviation program, which is relatively new. After graduating from
Baylor one is qualified for more than just flying.
My nephew went to an FBO in the Dallas area as a CFI and within months
was chief flight instructor. Very soon after that the FBO gave him the
right seat of a King Air they use for their charter operations.
Recently he was given the opportunity to train in their Sabreliner!!!
All this happened in about a year after graduation from Baylor. I
understand he is now flying the Sabreliner. Pretty nice ride for a 22
year old recent college graduate I would say!
I believe he has his sights set on a corporation or an airline.
Let me know if you'd like more info on my nephew, his FBO or Baylor
University.

Ricky

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 05:09:15 GMT, TheSmokingGnu
> wrote in
<%diPi.4551$ln.1002@trnddc07>:

>That said, a number of my friends are apparently quite enjoying the ATC
>program at UND, even 2 years on,

But given the emphasis of automation in future ATC (and even
piloting), is this a sound life-choice for the decades to come?

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:24:29 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>What kinds of careers are out there
>right now? What sort of college degree should a 17 year old pursue in
>order to come out the other end with a successful job in aviation?

Is it possible the youngster's current aviation focus is a result of
his being a member of an active flying family and his current flight
training? While I heartily condone choosing a carrier in a field he
is passionate about and eminently qualified for, such a choice
requires a bit of prescience. For a viable income stream over many
decades, it's necessary to evaluate the current trends to guess at
what the situation will be in the future.

With the ever accelerating advancement of technologic knowledge and
skill so startlingly evident in our time, this prognostication becomes
even more mandatory. There is little doubt that computerized
automation is part of the future. That will diminish the number of
jobs that require physical skills. I see growth in the medical and
bio-science (genetics) fields (that have been so resistant to
advancement for so long), space related, and electronics fields as
those being poised for growth (among probably several others I've
overlooked ). There will doubtless be jobs available for MBAs in the
future, and the likelihood of increasing violence accompanying the
projected exponential increase in world population should provide
opportunities in the military support fields (if we don't annihilate
ourselves first...).

Whatever choice your son makes, it should be something that fits his
personal, fundamental, innate interests and abilities. Making a
choice based solely on financial gain (as seems to have been done by
most physicians today) is a trap for fools. He needs to spend some
time alone to search his sole, and a few sessions with different
college carrier councilors to begin to get a grip on all the
ramifications of this choice. I would suspect, that there are
counselors available nearby; make an appointment or two.

Above all, he needs to know that it is likely that his focus will
change as his education progresses, and that knowledge should help
take some of the finality out of the decision making process at this
stage.

[Mxsmanic]

Tom Conner writes:

> Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> spreadsheet.

I guess you can become a pilot and watch your job be outsourced to a pilot
from the Third World instead.

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Pilots with experience are also getting lured overseas with high wages
> to help start new national airlines around the world.

That won't last long.

[Jay Honeck]

> Is it possible the youngster's current aviation focus is a result of
> his being a member of an active flying family and his current flight
> training?

Absolutely. We've been trying to get him to focus on career goals,
with thoughts toward college -- and he came 'round to the conclusion
(whilst in mid-flight lesson) that *this* was something he could do
and enjoy. Trust me, I'm as surprised as anyone -- but I think it
would be an interesting career.

>He needs to spend some
> time alone to search his sole

Well, he doesn't like seafood, and has no trouble with his feet, so I
suspect his sole is fine....

;-)

> Above all, he needs to know that it is likely that his focus will
> change as his education progresses, and that knowledge should help
> take some of the finality out of the decision making process at this
> stage.

Agree, although I wish it were otherwise. I changed my major several
times, and ended up taking 5 years to graduate as a result. (I was
also working 35 hours per week, throughout college). Mary, on the
other hand, stayed focussed on her major, thus saving big bucks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:50:28 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
> wrote in
>:

>You dumped chemistry for..........linguistics?
>
>Damn, you'll be able to say "Do you want fries with that?" in ten
>different languages. :)

Have you heard of the term: globalization?

Main Entry:globalize
Pronunciation:*gl*-b*-*l*z
Function:transitive verb
Inflected Form:-ized ; -izing
Date:1944

: to make global; especially : to make worldwide in scope or
application
–globalization \*gl*-b*-l*-*z*-sh*n\ noun

Given the current accelerating pace of international trading and
out-sourcing, it's easy to see that knowledge in that area may be
useful now and for the time it takes several future generations to
become fluent in English.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 05:00:26 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in om>:

>> Is it possible the youngster's current aviation focus is a result of
>> his being a member of an active flying family and his current flight
>> training?
>
>Absolutely. We've been trying to get him to focus on career goals,
>with thoughts toward college -- and he came 'round to the conclusion
>(whilst in mid-flight lesson) that *this* was something he could do
>and enjoy. Trust me, I'm as surprised as anyone -- but I think it
>would be an interesting career.

Do you honestly believe piloting is likely to sustain his interest and
financial needs for decades to come? I liked automobiles when I was
about his age, but I'm sure glad I didn't choose bus driving as a
carrier.

>>He needs to spend some time alone to search his sole
>
>Well, he doesn't like seafood, and has no trouble with his feet, so I
>suspect his sole is fine....
>
>;-)

Thanks for pointing out my error. But the point is, it's a difficult
choice that warrants considerable reflection and introspection.
Psychologists tell us, that to make a choice among a number of
beneficial things is the most difficult.

>
>> Above all, he needs to know that it is likely that his focus will
>> change as his education progresses, and that knowledge should help
>> take some of the finality out of the decision making process at this
>> stage.
>
>Agree, although I wish it were otherwise. I changed my major several
>times, and ended up taking 5 years to graduate as a result. (I was
>also working 35 hours per week, throughout college). Mary, on the
>other hand, stayed focussed on her major, thus saving big bucks.

It's a process. I believe most need to work through it over time as
you have done.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Tom Conner writes:
>
>> Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
>> some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run
>> a spreadsheet.
>
> I guess you can become a pilot and watch your job be outsourced to a
> pilot from the Third World instead.


Bwawahwhhawhahwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahwhhahwhahwhahwha hwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahhwah
whahhwhahwha!


>

Not fair you makde me blow my coffee through my nose!


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> Pilots with experience are also getting lured overseas with high wages
>> to help start new national airlines around the world.
>
> That won't last long.
>

Nah, of course it won't. The 75 year run on that has to end sometime.


Bertie

[Andrew Gideon]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:09:57 +0000, Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Not everyone is that smart. I guess we need to keep jobs around for
> those with less intellect.

Which task needs someone "that smart"? Though it was decades ago, that
was pretty much what my Father did. Admittedly, outsourcing wasn't the
issue about which he was worried; I presume (I've never thought to ask)
that he simply wanted to get above the ceiling for only-engineers.

Though he never mentioned his motivation for the MBA to me, he did
mention that the MBA degree was *far* easier than the engineering
degree. We discussed it a lot, actually, while I was taking a mix of
business and engineering classes at my undergrad (and I was whining about
issues such as how the finance classes *avoided* calculus, even when it
was a natural fit for the problem under discussion).

Before going too far along a choice path for Jay's son, I'd revisit his
lack of love for math. If it's something at which he's good, but he
actively dislikes it, there's a decent chance that this is because he's
been/being exposed to math badly in school. This could mean a lot of
different things, from a variation of the Barbi "math is hard" to
teachers that unawaredly teach that the subject is uninteresting or "too
hard to be worth the effort".

I studied and work in computer software, but there was a period of time
during my undergrad when I gave serious though to finding something
else. My classes were borderline painful in their inanity. I then took
some time off, during which the only marketable skill I had was
software. And it became fun again. That showed that it wasn't the area
of interest but only the classes.

Knowing that, I could deal with the classes when I returned.

- Andrew

[Jay Honeck]

> Thanks for pointing out my error. But the point is, it's a difficult
> choice that warrants considerable reflection and introspection.
> Psychologists tell us, that to make a choice among a number of
> beneficial things is the most difficult.


All kidding aside, you're right. He needs to develop some
introspection, and the ability to evaluate his life from outside of
himself. This isn't easy for any of us, and is especially difficult
as a teenager.

Trouble is, you need experience to successfully self-evaluate -- and
that's the one thing teenagers don't have...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Union Thug]

On Oct 10, 10:57 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Union Thug" > wrote
>
> > As far as college; Tell your boy to do what ever he wants but stay
> > away from most of theses aviation colleges ESPECIALLY Embry Riddle.
>
> You -seriously- need to work on your posting skills.

Thanks for the post Jim. Not sure how that happened and I will make it
clear that this is not the opinion of Jay. Many of these aviation
schools will paint you into a corner career wise . You will spend 60
to 90 K and then have an 1800 a month job to show for it. And if you
change your mind, you wont be qualified to do anything else. It is
better to major in something you can fall back on.


>
> As far as slow times go, there will be no slow times for Joe (or any other
> qualified pilots) in the 5 or 6 years it will take to get him ready. They
> will be trying to find trained monkeys to be pilots by then.

Right again Jim. There are jobs (At least for now) but the problem is
that they dont pay anything. In real dollars I make less now than I
did 10 years ago.And I will probably make less in 10 years than I do
today. I wont be so bold as to sugest what Jay's kid does with his
life, But I would tell him that if he wants a meaningful decent paying
job he should look outside of flying.
>
> The fears about pensions can be said about -any- job in this day and age.
> No profession is safe. That is one reason there are people funding their
> own retirements.
Once again, you hit the nail. But consider this, flying is the only
job where the government makes you retire at the peak of your earning
years (OK, maybe ATC too). And lets not even address disability and
survivorship benifits. About a third of us will lose our medicals at
some point in our careers. In the words of a dear friend of mine who
works at Jetblue "I took this ****ty low paying airline job so I can
get some experience, Now all I am qualified to do is hold a ****ty
low paying airline job".
K Baum

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:35:35 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in om>:

>> Thanks for pointing out my error. But the point is, it's a difficult
>> choice that warrants considerable reflection and introspection.
>> Psychologists tell us, that to make a choice among a number of
>> beneficial things is the most difficult.
>
>
>All kidding aside, you're right. He needs to develop some
>introspection, and the ability to evaluate his life from outside of
>himself. This isn't easy for any of us, and is especially difficult
>as a teenager.

Like many things, the more one practices something, the better he
successful be becomes at it.

>Trouble is, you need experience to successfully self-evaluate -- and
>that's the one thing teenagers don't have...

True.

But it's easy to see that there may be undue aviation influence in his
choice at this time in his life. If he bases his decisions on his
interest de jour, you'll probably be able to tell by his evolving
interest in gynecology. :-)

[RST Engineering]

Engineering is the art of making what you want from stuff you can get.

Having said that, I didn't dislike math, I HATED math. I STILL hate math
the way it is taught. It is just one of those gates that you have to walk
through to get the degree. I *teach* math, and as God is my witness, I try
and make it something that is real and understandable.

Having said that, my degree in physics (or as we called it, the department
of theoretical engineering) opened up a whole vista of opportunities, one of
which could have been flying if I had wanted it. I chose (as your walls are
mute testimony) to go into the space program. I could have gone into
computer programming. I could have gone into semiconductor design. I could
have gone a dozen different directions.

If you go to an "aviation" school and take "aviation", you have one career
choice in one particular field. If you go into computer science, or
engineering, or physics, or chemistry, you have a whole rainbow of choices
and as others have noted, you don't have to have an "aviation" degree to fly
for a living. .

Advice, worth every penny you paid for it...find a community college (get
the kid out of the nest for a while) that has dorms or at least housing near
the school. Try engineering (or physics, or...) for a year. If you STILL
don't like it, you've at least inexpensively eliminated one path and
possibly have found your true love. Or you can come home, say that you want
to go to one of the universities with an aviation program and go for it.

Get a college job wrenching on the weekends (no, I didn't say WENCHING).
Four years later you'll come out with a degree PLUS your A&P PLUS as many
hours as you can afford flying. Maybe a CFI in a couple of hundred hours
and pick up a little spare change doing flight reviews and the like.

Stay away from the "aviation schools" like Embry and such. Sure, they are
pilot mills, but little else.

Worth every penny, eh?

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.
>
> He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> He's now toying with the idea of a career in aviation. Possibilities
> include:
>
> - Commercial pilot
> - Helicopter pilot
> - Something on the business side of aviation.

[Judah]

Jay Honeck > wrote in news:1192104026.696520.138660
@v3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> Agree, although I wish it were otherwise. I changed my major several
> times, and ended up taking 5 years to graduate as a result. (I was
> also working 35 hours per week, throughout college). Mary, on the
> other hand, stayed focussed on her major, thus saving big bucks.

The secret to saving bucks on college is to spend a few years after HS in
different jobs until you find one you like that will also pay for school...
You might even be able to get a few life experience credits!

:)

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in
:

> Engineering is the art of making what you want from stuff you can get.
>
> Having said that, I didn't dislike math, I HATED math. I STILL hate
> math the way it is taught. It is just one of those gates that you
> have to walk through to get the degree. I *teach* math, and as God is
> my witness, I try and make it something that is real and
> understandable.
>



So you can explain why, if I take the time it takes for something in my
hand to hit th e floor and divide that time ad infinitum, the thing still
hits the floor?


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Richard Riley > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:45:12 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>>"RST Engineering" > wrote in
:
>>
>>> Engineering is the art of making what you want from stuff you can
>>> get.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I didn't dislike math, I HATED math. I STILL hate
>>> math the way it is taught. It is just one of those gates that you
>>> have to walk through to get the degree. I *teach* math, and as God
>>> is my witness, I try and make it something that is real and
>>> understandable.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>So you can explain why, if I take the time it takes for something in
>>my hand to hit th e floor and divide that time ad infinitum, the thing
>>still hits the floor?
>
> The difference between physics and engineering.
>
> In Physics it takes forever to fall. In engineering it gets close
> enough for engineering purposes.
>

Fair enough, but I already knew that!

Bertie

[Ross]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.
>
> He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> He's now toying with the idea of a career in aviation. Possibilities
> include:
>
> - Commercial pilot
> - Helicopter pilot
> - Something on the business side of aviation.
>
> I need some first-hand experiences, please. Hours worked, what to
> expect at the entry level, how much college does your job require,
> types of skills required, etc. What kinds of careers are out there
> right now? What sort of college degree should a 17 year old pursue in
> order to come out the other end with a successful job in aviation?
>
> We're filling out applications for colleges, and his choice of
> colleges will be steered by his decisions. Your input is very much
> appreciated!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

I have a close friend who owns a C-150. One of his son's got interested
in avaition and went to Southeastern Oklahoma State University in
Durant, OK. He got all his flight certificates and degree. He did some
flight instruction at the University then a flight instructor at a
school at Addison Airport in Dallas. Went on to fly freight for a while,
then up to captain on a Lear 25, I believe. Now he is second officer on
Gulfstream 200. He sent a photo of his "office". He is not even 30 years
old!

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Ross]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>>As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
>>and into his cross-country flights.
>>
>>He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
>>rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
>>but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
>>he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
>
> Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>
I am an engineer and I had to wait a loooonnnnngg time to buy a plane.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[[email protected]]

On Oct 10, 10:08 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Oct 10, 7:07 pm, "Tom Conner" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>
> > > On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > > > As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> > > > and into his cross-country flights.
>
> > > > He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> > > > rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> > > > but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> > > > he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> > > Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>
> > Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> > some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> > spreadsheet.
>
> Uh, I'm an engineer with mulitple patents AND an MBA. No shortage of
> jobs here in the U.S.. I get calls frequently. Lots of companies are
> having a very, very hard time filling recs in the U.S. There just
> aren't enough engineers. We have people getting hired right out of
> school and getting relocation packages to move across the country. Its
> pretty slim pickings for employeers out there.
>
> -Robert'- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Robert, you sound like the guy from Microsoft:
http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/071010/oct2007db2007109932262.html?.v=1

[Don Tuite]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:34:52 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

> . . .
>
>Having said that, my degree in physics (or as we called it, the department
>of theoretical engineering) opened up a whole vista of opportunities, one of
>which could have been flying if I had wanted it. I chose (as your walls are
>mute testimony) to go into the space program. I could have gone into
>computer programming. I could have gone into semiconductor design. I could
>have gone a dozen different directions.
>
>If you go to an "aviation" school and take "aviation", you have one career
>choice in one particular field. . . . .

What he said.

Don

[Jim Logajan]

Don Tuite > wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:34:52 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
>> . . .
>>
>>Having said that, my degree in physics (or as we called it, the
>>department of theoretical engineering) opened up a whole vista of
>>opportunities, one of which could have been flying if I had wanted it.
>> I chose (as your walls are mute testimony) to go into the space
>>program. I could have gone into computer programming. I could have
>>gone into semiconductor design. I could have gone a dozen different
>>directions.
>>
>>If you go to an "aviation" school and take "aviation", you have one
>>career choice in one particular field. . . . .
>
> What he said.

I'll third that. Don't let a dislike of math deter an interest in any of
the science or engineering fields.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Tom Conner wrote:
>
> Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> spreadsheet.
>


OK, so become an MBA, and buy the plane with the bonus from outsourcing
the engineering dept. based on a spreadsheet. <G>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 11, 8:35 am, Ross > wrote:

> > Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>
> I am an engineer and I had to wait a loooonnnnngg time to buy a plane.

Forth year out of school and that was only because we had just bought
a big house.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 11, 8:07 am, Richard Riley > wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:09:57 -0000, "Robert M. Gary"
>
> > wrote:
> >> Become an engineer
>
> >> Get an MBA
>
> >> Become a VP of engineering.
>
> >Not everyone is that smart. I guess we need to keep jobs around for
> >those with less intellect.
>
> If you have the smarts to become an engineer, you have the smarts for
> an MBA.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying you have to be smart to get an MBA. I'm
saying you have to be a little bit smart as an engineer to realize
that you *NEED* an MBA.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 11, 6:26 am, Andrew Gideon > wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:09:57 +0000, Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Though he never mentioned his motivation for the MBA to me, he did
> mention that the MBA degree was *far* easier than the engineering
> degree. We discussed it a lot, actually, while I was taking a mix of
> business and engineering classes at my undergrad (and I was whining about
> issues such as how the finance classes *avoided* calculus, even when it
> was a natural fit for the problem under discussion).

Sounds like your father was smart enough to know he needed the MBA. An
MBA my itself is not that impressive; it needs to be married to
another degree. The engineering undergrad with MBA is a *VERY *
powerful combo and produces lots of job offers.

-Robert

[Ross]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Oct 11, 8:35 am, Ross > wrote:
>
>
>>>Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>>
>>I am an engineer and I had to wait a loooonnnnngg time to buy a plane.
>
>
> Forth year out of school and that was only because we had just bought
> a big house.
>

Started flying in 1970, bought plane in 1996. In between paid for homes,
raised 2 kids, owned a 21' boat (sold boat in 1996), college for both,
had vacations, etc. You did great to get one in four years out of college.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 11, 11:21 am, Ross > wrote:

> Started flying in 1970, bought plane in 1996. In between paid for homes,
> raised 2 kids, owned a 21' boat (sold boat in 1996), college for both,
> had vacations, etc. You did great to get one in four years out of college.

I was a twinkle in 1970 ;)

-Robert

[Jay Honeck]

> But it's easy to see that there may be undue aviation influence in his
> choice at this time in his life. If he bases his decisions on his
> interest de jour, you'll probably be able to tell by his evolving
> interest in gynecology. :-)

Ha -- for sure.

I think every teenage boy thinks about becoming a gynecologist, right
up to the point where he sees a Queen Latifah or Jeane Kirkpatrick,
and realizes that *they* also need to be examined...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

RST Engineering wrote:
>
>If you go to an "aviation" school and take "aviation", you have one career
>choice in one particular field. If you go into computer science, or
>engineering, or physics, or chemistry, you have a whole rainbow of choices
>and as others have noted, you don't have to have an "aviation" degree to fly
>for a living. .
>

Gotta agree with this one. Aviation is a tough field to make a living if
stability is important to you. While the future looks bright for pilots
today, it may not be that way 5 years (or even 2 years) from now. The field
tends to go through never ending boom/bust cycles.

I know a lot of folks that work in various aspects of of the field. From
airline pilots to engineers that design engines and avionics. The pilots
are most exposed to the fluctuations in the industry, but it does eventually
filter down even to the management and engineering professions as well. Of
all those groups, the engineers tend to have the most flexibility when times
get tough in the industry.

Having a degree that does not tie you to an industry that is as unstable as
commercial aviation is a plus.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 10, 7:07 pm, "Tom Conner" > wrote:

> Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> spreadsheet.

Funny. I just got out of a meeting where we decided to open 2 new
rec's for C++ or Java programmers near Sacramento. We budgeted $5K for
visa sponsorship since we know we will get very few applications from
individuals who already have a right to work in the U.S. This is
without listing salery in the ads. Again, its very, very hard to
recruit software engineers in the states.
I've never seen a large savings from our team in India. The main
reason we have an office in India is simply because its easier to get
applicants there.

-Robert

[James]

Tom Conner wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>
>>>As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
>>>and into his cross-country flights.
>>>
>>>He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
>>>rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
>>>but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
>>>he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>>
>>Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>>
>
>
> Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> spreadsheet.
>
>
Become an MBA and then a CEO. Bugger up a company and lose lots of
money, and the get paid a ****load of cash to leave. If I ever go back
to college, I would study for an MBA.

James.

[Don Tuite]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:10:54 -0400, James >
wrote:
>>
>Become an MBA and then a CEO. Bugger up a company and lose lots of
>money, and the get paid a ****load of cash to leave. If I ever go back
>to college, I would study for an MBA.
>
That would make some sense. Nobody trusts a fresh MBA. You gotta
have some real chops from having worked at actually producing
something before you got the MBA. OTOH, last time I was out of work
(2001-3), the most demollished guys I saw at the unemployment office
every week were the middle managers with MBAs and lots of experience
holding meetings.

Something I think the other old engineers here would agree with is
that the job market is cycllical and you need to be alert to when any
given specialty is about to tank. You have to be able to re-invent
yourself over and over -- something that takes a good basic grounding
in the fundamentals and some staying current with what's going on
outside your specialty.

Don

[John Doe[_4_]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

> But it's easy to see that there may be undue aviation influence in
> his choice at this time in his life.

If he's working at it and not being spoon fed?

It's just as easy for a kid to rebel against what his parents do,
and to go his own way. It happens all the time.

Having parents or others who are at least one generation ahead of
you and who share the same interests is a potentially very valuable
resource.

Good luck and have fun.

[Jeff[_1_]]

What about military flying, Jay? Helo's as a WO would get him in the air
the fastest....or go get a Art History Degree (because we all know it takes
a degree to fly a plane) and go in as an officer?

Just a thought (and my dream up until my Senior year in High School when the
Doc said "read me the bottom line".....)

jf


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> and into his cross-country flights.
>
> He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> He's now toying with the idea of a career in aviation. Possibilities
> include:
>
> - Commercial pilot
> - Helicopter pilot
> - Something on the business side of aviation.
>
> I need some first-hand experiences, please. Hours worked, what to
> expect at the entry level, how much college does your job require,
> types of skills required, etc. What kinds of careers are out there
> right now? What sort of college degree should a 17 year old pursue in
> order to come out the other end with a successful job in aviation?
>
> We're filling out applications for colleges, and his choice of
> colleges will be steered by his decisions. Your input is very much
> appreciated!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> Agree, although I wish it were otherwise. I changed my major several
> times, and ended up taking 5 years to graduate as a result. (I was also
> working 35 hours per week, throughout college). Mary, on the other
> hand, stayed focussed on her major, thus saving big bucks.


1977-1980 college costs ....$2,000/year average? At $5/hr you could make
that ALL in a summer, with a little extra to burn - plus, no DEBT! Today,
not so easy.

Might I suggest Brian and Christine adopting the boy. Free tuition.

"Joe, you taking the old man's plane up today?"
"Yup."

"You enjoy flying the Pathfinder?"
"Pathfinder? You mean the RV-10. ...Zoom, zoom!"


Montblack <g>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Richard Riley > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:18:37 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>>Richard Riley > wrote in
:
>>
>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:45:12 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"RST Engineering" > wrote in
:
>>>>
>>>>> Engineering is the art of making what you want from stuff you can
>>>>> get.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having said that, I didn't dislike math, I HATED math. I STILL
hate
>>>>> math the way it is taught. It is just one of those gates that you
>>>>> have to walk through to get the degree. I *teach* math, and as
God
>>>>> is my witness, I try and make it something that is real and
>>>>> understandable.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>So you can explain why, if I take the time it takes for something in
>>>>my hand to hit th e floor and divide that time ad infinitum, the
thing
>>>>still hits the floor?
>>>
>>> The difference between physics and engineering.
>>>
>>> In Physics it takes forever to fall. In engineering it gets close
>>> enough for engineering purposes.
>>>
>>
>>Fair enough, but I already knew that!
>
> Any idea where I can get some massless ropes and frictionless pullies?



The Complete k00kist, of course.

Bertie
>

[Montblack]

("Robert M. Gary" wrote)
> I was a twinkle in 1970 ;)

I was watching moon-shots, as a ten-year old, in 1970.

http://www.space.com/news/a11_manflights.html
Moon shot - Apollo 13 was the only one in 1970


Montblack

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 11, 7:19 pm, Don Tuite >
wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:10:54 -0400, James >
> wrote:

> That would make some sense. Nobody trusts a fresh MBA. You gotta
> have some real chops from having worked at actually producing
> something before you got the MBA. OTOH, last time I was out of work
> (2001-3), the most demollished guys I saw at the unemployment office
> every week were the middle managers with MBAs and lots of experience
> holding meetings.

An MBA by itself can get you a job quickly but it doesn't distinguish
you much. However, engineers with MBAs are a different story. That is
a very powerful combo.

> Something I think the other old engineers here would agree with is
> that the job market is cycllical and you need to be alert to when any
> given specialty is about to tank. You have to be able to re-invent
> yourself over and over -- something that takes a good basic grounding
> in the fundamentals and some staying current with what's going on
> outside your specialty.

Its always funny to me when you see engineers that got into the
industry with minimal experience during the boom time complain that
life wasn't easy forever. You can't sit around on your bottom and
expect the gravy train to keep rolling, you have to update yourself to
stay on top. Getting the MBA is part of that. I still recommend people
get the full MBA vs the eMBA. The eMBA is good for those that are
already executives but anyone else should get the full MBA.
The next degree that executives need after the MBA is the JD. That's
what I'm going to work on next. If you look through SEC filings you'll
see that more than 1/2 of executives of successful companies hold both
JD's and MBAs.

-Robert

[Marco Leon]

"Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > wrote in message
...
> What about military flying, Jay? Helo's as a WO would get him in the air
> the fastest....or go get a Art History Degree (because we all know it
> takes a degree to fly a plane) and go in as an officer?
>
> Just a thought (and my dream up until my Senior year in High School when
> the Doc said "read me the bottom line".....)

Jay should explore taking it one step further and look into ROTC or even the
Air Force Academy (Naval Academy would apply as well) so his son can get the
education for FREE. Well, relatively speaking. If his son gets a pilot slot,
I believe the committment is 8 years or so.

Plus, AFA grads tend to get their pick of the pointy-nosed aircraft.

Marco

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Or alternativley,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiph6IItmcE

If he wants to the first won't matter.


If he's just looking for a job...


Bertie

[Jay Honeck]

> > But it's easy to see that there may be undue aviation influence in
> > his choice at this time in his life.
>
> If he's working at it and not being spoon fed?
>
> It's just as easy for a kid to rebel against what his parents do,
> and to go his own way. It happens all the time.

Joe is finding that learning to fly is NOT the cakewalk he thought it
would be -- and this is a good thing. Not because the flying isn't
easy for him -- it is -- but because of the bookwork and time
commitment.

Between working at the hotel, his senior year of high school, varsity
wrestling (in a state where wrestling is like football in Texas), and
taking flight lessons, he has barely enough time to sleep.

His interest in commercial aviation caught me completely by surprise.
Mary and I encouraged him to learn to fly now only so that he would
have that skill "in the bank" down the road, when he really wanted to
fly but couldn't afford it.

I didn't know (or care, really) if he had any interest in pursuing
flying as a career -- personally, I think it's a pretty tough row to
hoe -- but I'll be proud of him whatever he chooses.

(Although when he starts getting advanced ratings, and razzes me
constantly about not having my instrument rating, THAT might get to be
a pain...)

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay should explore taking it one step further and look into ROTC or even the
> Air Force Academy (Naval Academy would apply as well) so his son can get the
> education for FREE. Well, relatively speaking. If his son gets a pilot slot,
> I believe the committment is 8 years or so.

Yep, he's looking into ROTC.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Its always funny to me when you see engineers that got into the
> industry with minimal experience during the boom time complain that
> life wasn't easy forever. You can't sit around on your bottom and
> expect the gravy train to keep rolling, you have to update yourself to
> stay on top. Getting the MBA is part of that. I still recommend people
> get the full MBA vs the eMBA. The eMBA is good for those that are
> already executives but anyone else should get the full MBA.
> The next degree that executives need after the MBA is the JD. That's
> what I'm going to work on next. If you look through SEC filings you'll
> see that more than 1/2 of executives of successful companies hold both
> JD's and MBAs.

Are written communication skills important?

[[email protected]]

On Oct 12, 12:57 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:

> (Although when he starts getting advanced ratings, and razzes me
> constantly about not having my instrument rating, THAT might get to be
> a pain...)
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

It will be a good day when I get my instrument rating before he does,
with the way things are going right now. But I'm sure he'll get around
to it eventually ;). Thank you all for your responses, they've given
me some insight into what to expect later on. For now, I'm going to
see how far commercial aviation can take me. But who knows, we'll have
to see how it works out.
--
Joe Honeck
Iowa City, IA
"Jay's Son. Yes, that Jay, the crazy one"

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:48:41 -0000, wrote:

>
>It will be a good day when I get my instrument rating before he does,
>with the way things are going right now. But I'm sure he'll get around
>to it eventually ;). Thank you all for your responses, they've given
>me some insight into what to expect later on. For now, I'm going to
>see how far commercial aviation can take me. But who knows, we'll have
>to see how it works out.


Jeez... Now there's two of them.. <G>

Good luck!

[Ken Finney[_2_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Oct 11, 7:19 pm, Don Tuite >
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:10:54 -0400, James >
> > wrote:
>
> > That would make some sense. Nobody trusts a fresh MBA. You gotta
> > have some real chops from having worked at actually producing
> > something before you got the MBA. OTOH, last time I was out of work
> > (2001-3), the most demollished guys I saw at the unemployment office
> > every week were the middle managers with MBAs and lots of experience
> > holding meetings.
>
> An MBA by itself can get you a job quickly but it doesn't distinguish
> you much. However, engineers with MBAs are a different story. That is
> a very powerful combo.
>

< snip >

I got my engineering degree in three years, and got my when I was 26. Got
surplused two weeks later, and identified as a "problem". Not a single
manager above me in my management chain had an MBA, and they admitted after
they retired that they were scared of me. Took me almost 20 years to regain
my reputation. Basically, everyone above me had to die or retire. So, the
combination doesn't work for everyone!

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> Its always funny to me when you see engineers that got into the
>> industry with minimal experience during the boom time complain that
>> life wasn't easy forever. You can't sit around on your bottom and
>> expect the gravy train to keep rolling, you have to update yourself to
>> stay on top. Getting the MBA is part of that. I still recommend people
>> get the full MBA vs the eMBA. The eMBA is good for those that are
>> already executives but anyone else should get the full MBA.
>> The next degree that executives need after the MBA is the JD. That's
>> what I'm going to work on next. If you look through SEC filings you'll
>> see that more than 1/2 of executives of successful companies hold both
>> JD's and MBAs.
>
> Are written communication skills important?
>

Why, thinnking of learning how to write?

Bertie

[Montblack]

("B A R R Y" wrote)
> Jeez... Now there's two of them.. <G>
>
> Good luck!


It's a little like that moment in Jurassic Park when it's realized - "Oh
no!" They're multiplying! <g>


Montblack :-)

[Montblack]

wrote)
> Joe Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> "Jay's Son. Yes, that Jay, the crazy one"


17 and you think your dad is nuts.

You're ...right on schedule! :-)


Montblack

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

John Doe > wrote in
t:

> XNoArchive troll


the *******!

Bertie
>
>
> Path:
> newsdbm02.news.prodigy.net!newsdst02.news.prodigy. net!prodigy.com!
newsc
> on02.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!
news.bananasplit.info!
> news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news From: Nomen Nescio <nobody
> dizum.com> Subject: Re: Future in Aviation for my Son?
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
> References: <%diPi.4551$ln.1002 trnddc07>
> X-No-Archive:
> Message-ID: <090b7639e3674bff744f8cfb5855e95f dizum.com>
> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:50:28 +0200 (CEST)
> Mail-To-News-Contact: abuse dizum.com
> Organization: mail2news dizum.com
> Xref: prodigy.net rec.aviation.piloting:604128
> X-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 05:59:27 EDT
> (newsdbm02.news.prodigy.net)
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: TheSmokingGnu <anonymityisavirtue 1111011010011.com>
>
>>I initially started my
>>current college with a chem major, but have decided against the math
>>and have chosen linguistics because my other great passion (besides
>>flying!) is language.
>
> You dumped chemistry for..........linguistics?
>
> Damn, you'll be able to say "Do you want fries with that?" in ten
> different languages. :)
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: N/A
>
> iQCVAwUBRw3t65MoscYxZNI5AQE08wQAh+AyoYCiub0Sz2/8X4zD5E6tR+ZB7JDi
> TVST8jQLvVfa8IRhiVB2Visi/wtLPU+4ToFS+GdhS2CTL3PUNi1rVZnoPa1gnjGa
> TyTnEc0t4hDoU9RU4B9RYQ7JwUZhey4FX7NNMHlheCd+hlIO5Z r7FAqmpIO8ryDR
> LdMVcx+/yPM=
> =wulp
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
>
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

John Doe > wrote in
. net:

> Regular troll
>

Regular k00k


Bertie
>
> Path:
> newssvr29.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm05.news.prodigy. net!
newsdst01.news.pr
> odigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon04.news.prodigy.net!p rodigy.net!
newshub.sd
> su.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews .com!
nx01.iad01.newsh
> osting.com!newshosting.com!post02.iad01!roadrunner .com!not-for-mail
> From: "Viperdoc" <jninomi NOattglobalSPAMMS.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
> References: <1192065869.024341.221590 r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
> <1192066710.862076.146740 50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>
> <13gr183gl8baq78 corp.supernews.com> <femha6$95j$1 news04.infoave.net>
> <irltg3pg1velpo3ee94it85nsmdm9q33fc 4ax.com> <1192198004.032400.161350
> t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <41svg3t0tsotni1q626qu9igf0tmbiai43
> 4ax.com> Subject: Re: Future in Aviation for my Son?
> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:46:45 -0500
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
> X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
> Lines: 6
> Message-ID: <470ff94d$0$32493$4c368faf roadrunner.com>
> Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.94.26.184
> X-Complaints-To: abuse rr.com
> Xref: prodigy.net rec.aviation.piloting:604416
>
> To all: be advised that Anthony Atkielski, mxsmanic, is not a pilot,
> and in fact has little to offer about finding or keeping a job, since
> he appears to have difficulty with both.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> > "Jay's Son. Yes, that Jay, the crazy one"
>
> 17 and you think your dad is nuts.
>
> You're ...right on schedule! :-)

Next will come stupid.

Then, gradually, when you're around age 25, Dad starts getting smarter
again... By the time you're 40, he's the smartest guy you
know...again.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Airbus]

In article >, says...
>
>
>
>"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> > As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
>> > and into his cross-country flights.
>> >
>> > He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
>> > rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
>> > but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
>> > he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>>
>> Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>>
>
>Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
>some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
>spreadsheet.
>
>
More like : Become an engineer then see your job be outsourced to a brilliant
Indian with a PhD, who runs Mechanical Desktop and Ansys FEA in his sleep and
works 18 hours a day at $8/hour.

[Margy Natalie]

RST Engineering wrote:
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from stuff you can get.
>
> Having said that, I didn't dislike math, I HATED math. I STILL hate math
> the way it is taught. It is just one of those gates that you have to walk
> through to get the degree. I *teach* math, and as God is my witness, I try
> and make it something that is real and understandable.

I know a few engineering professors who admit they don't like math and
aren't very good at math (didn't get great grades in math either). They
also say it's great that they have computers to DO the math. They
understand it from the courses, but they no longer have to do the work.

My daughter wasn't overly fond of LEARNING math or science, but she
likes DOING math and science, so she's a scientist.

Margy
>
> Having said that, my degree in physics (or as we called it, the department
> of theoretical engineering) opened up a whole vista of opportunities, one of
> which could have been flying if I had wanted it. I chose (as your walls are
> mute testimony) to go into the space program. I could have gone into
> computer programming. I could have gone into semiconductor design. I could
> have gone a dozen different directions.
>
> If you go to an "aviation" school and take "aviation", you have one career
> choice in one particular field. If you go into computer science, or
> engineering, or physics, or chemistry, you have a whole rainbow of choices
> and as others have noted, you don't have to have an "aviation" degree to fly
> for a living. .
>
> Advice, worth every penny you paid for it...find a community college (get
> the kid out of the nest for a while) that has dorms or at least housing near
> the school. Try engineering (or physics, or...) for a year. If you STILL
> don't like it, you've at least inexpensively eliminated one path and
> possibly have found your true love. Or you can come home, say that you want
> to go to one of the universities with an aviation program and go for it.
>
> Get a college job wrenching on the weekends (no, I didn't say WENCHING).
> Four years later you'll come out with a degree PLUS your A&P PLUS as many
> hours as you can afford flying. Maybe a CFI in a couple of hundred hours
> and pick up a little spare change doing flight reviews and the like.
>
> Stay away from the "aviation schools" like Embry and such. Sure, they are
> pilot mills, but little else.
>
> Worth every penny, eh?
>
> Jim
>

[Al G[_1_]]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("B A R R Y" wrote)
>> Jeez... Now there's two of them.. <G>
>>
>> Good luck!
>
>
> It's a little like that moment in Jurassic Park when it's realized - "Oh
> no!" They're multiplying! <g>
>
>
> Montblack :-)
>

It's not you Marty, It's your kids! (Back to the future2)


Al G

[Ricky]

On Oct 12, 1:57 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:

> I didn't know (or care, really) if he had any interest in pursuing
> flying as a career -- personally, I think it's a pretty tough row to
> hoe --

Ya know, I hear often that it's a "tough row to hoe" but my nephew,
who is a little over a year out of Baylor Univ. Aviation program is in
the right seat of a Sabreliner making close to 30k a year. He went
from CFI to Chief CFI to a King Air charter (right seat, of course) at
the school within several months. Now a little over a year later he's
in the Sabreliner. Pretty good for a 23 yr old. recent univ. grad, I'd
say.

Ricky

[RST Engineering]

My students come out of a two year program in Mechatronics (some of them
stolen before they graduate) in Community College making $50k+ a year from
the getgo without having to worry about passing a physical every year.

Y'all need to reevaluate your priorities.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford

"Ricky" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 12, 1:57 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>> I didn't know (or care, really) if he had any interest in pursuing
>> flying as a career -- personally, I think it's a pretty tough row to
>> hoe --
>
> Ya know, I hear often that it's a "tough row to hoe" but my nephew,
> who is a little over a year out of Baylor Univ. Aviation program is in
> the right seat of a Sabreliner making close to 30k a year. He went
> from CFI to Chief CFI to a King Air charter (right seat, of course) at
> the school within several months. Now a little over a year later he's
> in the Sabreliner. Pretty good for a 23 yr old. recent univ. grad, I'd
> say.
>
> Ricky
>

[grvaughan]

OK, I guess I'll go ahead and post this email sent earlier:

Jay,

Maybe I'll get around to posting a reply to the group, if I can get my
various Google accounts sorted out (had trouble lately posting).

I'm an aerospace engineer and non-current pilot and write a blog,
AeroGo, for students like your son who are interested in the aerospace
field but not sure what to do to get into it. I try to emphasize that
there's lots of different ways to work in aerospace.

The blog's at http://www.xanga.com/AeroGo

You can take a look at the tags page to get an idea of the subjects
covered

http://www.xanga.com/AeroGo/tags/

In particular,

http://www.xanga.com/AeroGo/tags/college/

http://www.xanga.com/AeroGo/tags/career/

The discussion in the group about Embry-Riddle brings up the whole
issue of aeronautical science vs. aerospace engineering. Aeronautical
science degrees are usually mainly college-based flight training
programs (since a lot of airlines, etc., require a college degree).
There are quite a few places you can go to get one of these.

Embry-Riddle started a major expansion into having an engineering
school in the 80s, and is now looking at adding a graduate program.
This is a whole different program than aviation or ATC, etc. While I
wonder if ERAU's engineering program is a bit over-rated, it might be
a good choice.

That said, I'm sure there are many cheaper, and maybe better (for your
situation) places to go for flight training. Even the eng. students in
Daytona Beach go somewhere else to fly, since it's so expensive.

So the first decision your son needs to make is whether he's mainly
wanting to get JUST a flying job, or a creative-type engineering, etc.
job, because the college choices are pretty much totally different.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 13, 12:24 pm, Airbus > wrote:
> In article >, says...
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >> On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> >> > As many of you know, my son is taking flight lessons. He's past solo,
> >> > and into his cross-country flights.
>
> >> > He's a senior in high school, and is wondering what to do with the
> >> > rest of his life. His initial aim has been going into engineering,
> >> > but has decided that math is not something he truly enjoys. (Although
> >> > he's good at it -- far, far more advanced than I am.)
>
> >> Become an Engineer and then buy his own plane.
>
> >Ha, ha. Very funny. Become an engineer and watch your job be out-sourced by
> >some doofus with an MBA who doesn't know which end is up, but can run a
> >spreadsheet.
>
> More like : Become an engineer then see your job be outsourced to a brilliant
> Indian with a PhD, who runs Mechanical Desktop and Ansys FEA in his sleep and
> works 18 hours a day at $8/hour.- Hide quoted text -

Damn, where can I get him??? We've got 14 employees in India right
now. Their compensation packages are just over 1/2 of a U.S. employee.
After adding up the costs, I've never found any cost savings in India.
The reason companies hire engineers in India is because there are lots
of them. Like I said, we've got rec's for C++ and Java programmers
right now near Sacramento and are getting nill for good resumes. We
may have to switch the recs to India just to find people. Companies
find engineers in India because there is such a shortage in the U.S.

-Robert