Paid CFIGs/Tow Pilots in Club Setting

[Mike125]

A debate has arisen in our small club regarding CFIG and tow pilots
getting paid under certain circumstances. First, a little background.
We have less than ten active members, three CFIGs (two who are
available only part time and a third who just got his ticket). Our
membership has been stagnant for several years. Different reasons have
been cited including ugly trainers (2-33 with a nice L13 added a few
years ago), lack of promotion and lack of CFIGs.

Two instructors have proposed charging for instruction and a tow
pilot, not wanting to be left out, would like to be paid if the
instructor is getting paid. ("If they're getting paid, so should I")
The CFIGs and tow pilot would be paid directly by the student. The
tow pilot would also like to be paid for towing or acting as glider
PIC for the occasional commercial rides we do.

Do any clubs out there charge for instruction? Any tow or commercial
pilots getting paid for rides?

It seems to me that these ideas are frought with CFR, legal and
insurance issues and the line between a club a commercial operation
would be crossed.

The CFIG issue is, "I won't do it for free - too much liabilty and
cost incurred getting my instructor rating. If you don't want to pay,
find another CFIG". That's putting it coldly but accurately. The new
CFIG hasn't decided what he is going to do but may teach for free if
the club picks up the cost of liability insurance. (BTW: What does
that cost and who offers it?)

Don't just tell me its a bad idea, if that's what you think. Cite
specific regulations or CFRs, if any, that would prohibit it.

Thanks,
Mike

[Andy[_1_]]

On Oct 12, 7:41 am, Mike125 > wrote:
> A debate has arisen in our small club regarding CFIG and tow pilots
> getting paid under certain circumstances. First, a little background.
> We have less than ten active members, three CFIGs (two who are
> available only part time and a third who just got his ticket). Our
> membership has been stagnant for several years. Different reasons have
> been cited including ugly trainers (2-33 with a nice L13 added a few
> years ago), lack of promotion and lack of CFIGs.
>
> Two instructors have proposed charging for instruction and a tow
> pilot, not wanting to be left out, would like to be paid if the
> instructor is getting paid. ("If they're getting paid, so should I")
> The CFIGs and tow pilot would be paid directly by the student. The
> tow pilot would also like to be paid for towing or acting as glider
> PIC for the occasional commercial rides we do.
>
> Do any clubs out there charge for instruction? Any tow or commercial
> pilots getting paid for rides?
>
> It seems to me that these ideas are frought with CFR, legal and
> insurance issues and the line between a club a commercial operation
> would be crossed.
>
> The CFIG issue is, "I won't do it for free - too much liabilty and
> cost incurred getting my instructor rating. If you don't want to pay,
> find another CFIG". That's putting it coldly but accurately. The new
> CFIG hasn't decided what he is going to do but may teach for free if
> the club picks up the cost of liability insurance. (BTW: What does
> that cost and who offers it?)
>
> Don't just tell me its a bad idea, if that's what you think. Cite
> specific regulations or CFRs, if any, that would prohibit it.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike

I used to be an active member of Tucson Soaring Club and towed and
instructed there until I got tired of the drive. At that time
instructors received credit to their accounts for instruction given.
I think tow pilots received $1 per tow. There was no cash in hand,
just an offset against monthly dues and personal tows. I know active
TuSC member visit thos forum. Perhaps one could provide an updtae if
that has changed.

I doubt there is any reasonable fee that would compensate an
instructor or tow pilot for the risk of liability. You either accept
the risk, easy if you are young and have no assets, or shy away from
it as you become more vulnerable.

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Oct 12, 9:41 am, Mike125 > wrote:
> A debate has arisen in our small club regarding CFIG and tow pilots
> getting paid under certain circumstances. First, a little background.
> We have less than ten active members, three CFIGs (two who are
> available only part time and a third who just got his ticket). Our
> membership has been stagnant for several years. Different reasons have
> been cited including ugly trainers (2-33 with a nice L13 added a few
> years ago), lack of promotion and lack of CFIGs.
>
> Two instructors have proposed charging for instruction and a tow
> pilot, not wanting to be left out, would like to be paid if the
> instructor is getting paid. ("If they're getting paid, so should I")
> The CFIGs and tow pilot would be paid directly by the student. The
> tow pilot would also like to be paid for towing or acting as glider
> PIC for the occasional commercial rides we do.
>
> Do any clubs out there charge for instruction? Any tow or commercial
> pilots getting paid for rides?
>
> It seems to me that these ideas are frought with CFR, legal and
> insurance issues and the line between a club a commercial operation
> would be crossed.
>
> The CFIG issue is, "I won't do it for free - too much liabilty and
> cost incurred getting my instructor rating. If you don't want to pay,
> find another CFIG". That's putting it coldly but accurately. The new
> CFIG hasn't decided what he is going to do but may teach for free if
> the club picks up the cost of liability insurance. (BTW: What does
> that cost and who offers it?)
>
> Don't just tell me its a bad idea, if that's what you think. Cite
> specific regulations or CFRs, if any, that would prohibit it.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike

I'd almost think you were talking about my club!

I'm one of the instructors who proposed "allowing CFIG's to accept
payment" (not a requirement) for reasons somewhat different than
stated in the above example.

In our club the 2 most experienced and available instructors often
have the choice between making a living or working at the glider
club. It's simply a matter of where we spend our time. Though the
pay potential at the club doesn't compare to our other incomes it
would at least compensate for the out of pocket costs of hanging out
at the airport all day. Most people dont realize it actually costs
money (not just time) to spend the day instructing. Occasional
students do realize this as well as appreciate the costs in time and
offer to buy lunch, dinner, and even insist on paying cash for the
hours spent with them. We have to decline due to club policy and it's
annoying to all involved.

We offer professional quality instruction at our club and we've had
people drive in from over a hundred miles and join the club to fly
with us due to our reputation. We treat our local members the same
way yet when this issue was brought up at the last meeting it was shot
down in flames by those very members. Frankly, I was shocked. I
think it goes to show that the fear and ignorence of FAA and Insurance
Company regulations and litigation overshadows all other concerns.

I long for the days when people could afford to spend their weekends
at the gliderport sharing this wonderful sport but times have
changed. The policies that founded many clubs were formed in a
different social and economic reality than exist today. Time is no
longer money. Time is worth more than money now.

Matt Michael
Ames Iowa

[Michael Ash]

Andy > wrote:
> I doubt there is any reasonable fee that would compensate an
> instructor or tow pilot for the risk of liability. You either accept
> the risk, easy if you are young and have no assets, or shy away from
> it as you become more vulnerable.

How much would liability insurance cost for them? Would this be a way for
a club to compensate its instructors without getting into the legal mess
of actually paying them?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[[email protected]]

>It seems to me that these ideas are frought with CFR, legal and
>insurance issues and the line between a club a commercial operation
>would be crossed.

i dont know about insurance issues, but there is no reason why a CFI
of any type cannot be paid for instruction or a commercial pilot can
be paid to give a local sightseeing ride. and as long as the towpilot
is commercially rated he can be paid for the tow. I dont think the
FAA cares if its a commercial or club operation. the same rules apply.

Im with Matt on this one. I love to teach and give rides in gliders,
but if I walk across the runway (literally) to the power FBO i can
make some measley money. as much as i love soaring and teaching
soaring, i also love fresh ramen noodles waiting for me at home.
thankfully for my students i insist on giving the same high quality
instruction whether i get paid or not.

when i took my first instructional flight in a glider and Matt told me
'no charge' I was aghast. how could someone get training to be a
professional at anything and then not get paid? needless to say, in
return he didnt have to pay for any instruction on his way to his ASEL
certificate.

The only part of power flying that i've ever heard of that involves
free instruction is desperate young time building CFI's. In general
the practice is looked upon in a poor light. My power flying club
also aims to keep costs low, and CFIs are paid well and no one
complains.

[SoaringXCellence]

On Oct 12, 8:51 am, wrote:
> >It seems to me that these ideas are frought with CFR, legal and
> >insurance issues and the line between a club a commercial operation
> >would be crossed.
>
> i dont know about insurance issues, but there is no reason why a CFI
> of any type cannot be paid for instruction or a commercial pilot can
> be paid to give a local sightseeing ride. and as long as the towpilot
> is commercially rated he can be paid for the tow. I dont think the
> FAA cares if its a commercial or club operation. the same rules apply.
>
> Im with Matt on this one. I love to teach and give rides in gliders,
> but if I walk across the runway (literally) to the power FBO i can
> make some measley money. as much as i love soaring and teaching
> soaring, i also love fresh ramen noodles waiting for me at home.
> thankfully for my students i insist on giving the same high quality
> instruction whether i get paid or not.
>
> when i took my first instructional flight in a glider and Matt told me
> 'no charge' I was aghast. how could someone get training to be a
> professional at anything and then not get paid? needless to say, in
> return he didnt have to pay for any instruction on his way to his ASEL
> certificate.
>
> The only part of power flying that i've ever heard of that involves
> free instruction is desperate young time building CFI's. In general
> the practice is looked upon in a poor light. My power flying club
> also aims to keep costs low, and CFIs are paid well and no one
> complains.

As a professional CFI (that's all I do to earn my living) I expect to
be paid for my time when I give instruction. My glider club has
always had paid instructors and the rate is up to the instructor.
When we give club directed instruction (as part of a 5 lesson intro
package) we are paid at the rate of $30 per hour. I think a few of
the instructors charge less than that when they work with their own
students and some may ask more. I do some advanced training where I
increase the charge for that training.

Just to give some details about the club; Our club has about 80-100
active members, 35+ privately owned ships, 9 club sailplanes and three
tow planes. There are around 15 instructors of whom about 4-5 are
actively working with more than one or two students. We just minted a
new instructor and are about to get another one. On any given weekend
we have many intro rides (not sure of the exact numbers but I know
that it is not unsusal to have 10-15 on a day). Most training gliders
are busy on the weekend with both instruction and rides (both public
and club members). Surprisingly our single place ships are less used.

Just wanted to put my $.02 in.

Mike

[Andy[_1_]]

On Oct 12, 8:51 am, wrote:
>The only part of power flying that i've ever heard of that involves
>free instruction is desperate young time building CFI's. In general
>the practice is looked upon in a poor light.

Well I, for one, have given many hours of airplane flight instruction
for free or a couple of beers per flight. I'm not trying to make a
living at it as I make a good salary as an aerospace engineer. I'm
also not deperate to build time although I would like to have a few
more multi and tubine hours in my log. No, I just like to fly with
friends because I enjoy it and I have given several of them tailwheel
training, flight reviews, and checkouts in new types. Also trained
and signed off a few tow pilots along the way. That's not to say I
have never charged for flight instruction, I have. Just saying that
instructing without charging is probably not that unusual.

Andy

[Vaughn Simon]

"Mike125" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The CFIG issue is, "I won't do it for free - too much liabilty and
> cost incurred getting my instructor rating. If you don't want to pay,
> find another CFIG". That's putting it coldly but accurately. The new
> CFIG hasn't decided what he is going to do but may teach for free if
> the club picks up the cost of liability insurance.


Personal liability can be a big deal for CFIs, depending on your state's laws
and the CFI's personal exposure. At this stage in my life I am shy about
instructing...paid or not.

At minimum, your instructors should not be buying their CFI liability
insurance out of their own pockets. Does the club cover them?

The following is only my personal opinion: I see no problem with allowing
your instructors to charge students directly for their services, and keep the
club out of their financial arrangements. Your commercially rated tow pilots
could receive offset credit against dues and glider usage.

Vaughn (CFIG)

[fred]

On Oct 12, 7:41 am, Mike125 > wrote:
> A debate has arisen in our small club regarding CFIG and tow pilots
> getting paid under certain circumstances. First, a little background.
> We have less than ten active members, three CFIGs (two who are
> available only part time and a third who just got his ticket). Our
> membership has been stagnant for several years. Different reasons have
> been cited including ugly trainers (2-33 with a nice L13 added a few
> years ago), lack of promotion and lack of CFIGs.
>
> Two instructors have proposed charging for instruction and a tow
> pilot, not wanting to be left out, would like to be paid if the
> instructor is getting paid. ("If they're getting paid, so should I")
> The CFIGs and tow pilot would be paid directly by the student. The
> tow pilot would also like to be paid for towing or acting as glider
> PIC for the occasional commercial rides we do.
>
> Do any clubs out there charge for instruction? Any tow or commercial
> pilots getting paid for rides?
>
> It seems to me that these ideas are frought with CFR, legal and
> insurance issues and the line between a club a commercial operation
> would be crossed.
>
> The CFIG issue is, "I won't do it for free - too much liabilty and
> cost incurred getting my instructor rating. If you don't want to pay,
> find another CFIG". That's putting it coldly but accurately. The new
> CFIG hasn't decided what he is going to do but may teach for free if
> the club picks up the cost of liability insurance. (BTW: What does
> that cost and who offers it?)
>
> Don't just tell me its a bad idea, if that's what you think. Cite
> specific regulations or CFRs, if any, that would prohibit it.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike

With more than 40 years of instructing and towing both in a club
setting and commercial operation,I offer the following:

Many ask me why soaring membership is not growing like it formerly
did. My answer is perhaps too simple, but here it is.
30 years ago, a single wage earner could support a family and perhaps
buy a home. There were few opportunities to visit a "GAMING" place.
There were few water craft (Ski-doo's) & more, computer games did not
exist. On and on the list of new demands on time could be listed.

The main problem for the growth of soaring is to find those people who
would choose what we offer.

You have little risk in allowing your instructors to operate as
"Independent operators" and let them sell their services to anyone
willing to pay. The club would not collect the money and would not be
an employer. The FAA has it's rules and as long as the pilot is
qualified to fly for hire, it's OK.
I charge my customers almost $50 per hour for instruction. I deduct
taxes and pay for insurance. The instructors are paid $35 per hour.
Tow pilots are paid a guaranteed $75 per day. I wish I could find more
at these rates.

A local club...LESC prides themselves as being able to operate as the
"Low Expense Soaring Club". They do pretty well.

TSA is the most successful club I know of. Perhaps you can gain
current knowledge from them.
The club could CONTRACT for a tow pilot to show up for a minimum fee
for each day. The tow pilot would be paid for his services by the
pilot being towed.
The amount paid by the customer would be first applied to the minimum
contracted fee for the day.

It is very difficult to hire qualified pilots. To get them for
free...may become impossible.
A very good post. Good luck. Fred

[Jeffrey Banks]

Hi all,

There seems to be a shortage of active CFIG's and
Towpilots...........that are unpaid
Lots of inactive CFIG's and Towpilots.

No shortage of A&P's............they get paid by most clubs.


The CFIG's and Towpilots might be able to get to the field more often if
there was at least some remuneration for service.

I have noticed, when a student is writing a check, he/she is a better
student and I am a better CFIG.
He/She does the home work , and I prep with a better though out lesson
plan.

The free CFIG stuff often becomes just a dual flight without much
thoughtful progress.

As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

Perhaps paying the Commercial rated towpilots would encourage our
private pilot towpilots to upgrade their ticket.

I favor Paid CFIG's and Tow Pilots in all glider operations.

Jeff Banks

Alaska

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Jeffrey Banks wrote:
> As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
> cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

Section 61.113: Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.
....
(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.

Let the thread begin 8^)

Marc

[[email protected]]

> As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
> cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>> As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
>> cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.
>
> yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
> an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?

I would also be interested in the answer to that question. In particular,
the notion that genuine flight experience can't be logged seems just wierd.
61.113 by itself seems to make it OK to pay a Private tow pilot, but I wonder if
it is still prohibited by some other regulation or guidance.

Getting back to the spirit of the thread... regardless of regulations, and
as others have mentioned, NOT paying Private tow pilots sounds to me to be a
sound and defensible club policy. Towing is a potentially dangerous job that
requires precision flying and very good judgement. The club should encourage
all tow pilots to develop their skills and demonstrate them by obtaining
Commercial licenses. Required by FAA regulations or not, this would be a safe,
conservative policy. Exactly the type of thing that would look very good to
your insurance company, or (heaven forbid) in court.

Vaughn



Vaughn
>
>

[BT]

Every FSDO seems to interpret it differently, however recent the
information. You can count the hours towards a rating.
I am unsure of the "remuneration" in dollars.

But now the insurance companies get involved. The standard answer seems to
be, that if you are "selling rides" to the general public, you best carry
"commercial" insurance on the gliders and the tow, and the insurance company
will (may) require a Commercial rated tow pilot and a Commercial rated
glider pilot.

"Most" club insurance is not "commercial" and only covers operations with
"club members", visiting glider pilots bringing their own gliders to the
field will need to become "members according to the club by-laws" to gain
tows. Otherwise the "club" could be accused of "selling tows" and the
insurance would be null and void. The same could be said of visiting pilots
"renting club gliders".

The "add-on" for commercial operations to a clubs insurance policy was
almost 20% higher for us, plus the stipulation that all tow pilots used for
"rides" or towing non club gliders have a commercial ASEL rating. For the
possible benefit gained it was not worth it to us to pursue commercial
coverage.

BT

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>> As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
>> cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.
>
> yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
> an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?
>
>

[max-gross]

On Oct 14, 12:31 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> Every FSDO seems to interpret it differently, however recent the
> information. You can count the hours towards a rating.
> I am unsure of the "remuneration" in dollars.
>
> But now the insurance companies get involved. The standard answer seems to
> be, that if you are "selling rides" to the general public, you best carry
> "commercial" insurance on the gliders and the tow, and the insurance company
> will (may) require a Commercial rated tow pilot and a Commercial rated
> glider pilot.
>
> "Most" club insurance is not "commercial" and only covers operations with
> "club members", visiting glider pilots bringing their own gliders to the
> field will need to become "members according to the club by-laws" to gain
> tows. Otherwise the "club" could be accused of "selling tows" and the
> insurance would be null and void. The same could be said of visiting pilots
> "renting club gliders".
>
> The "add-on" for commercial operations to a clubs insurance policy was
> almost 20% higher for us, plus the stipulation that all tow pilots used for
> "rides" or towing non club gliders have a commercial ASEL rating. For the
> possible benefit gained it was not worth it to us to pursue commercial
> coverage.
>
> BT
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
> >> cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.
>
> > yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
> > an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Fred said, TSA is the most successful club I know of. Perhaps you can
gain
current knowledge from them.

Fred,
TSA (Texas Soaring Association) is not immune to the shortage of
free CFIG services, just look at thier website: texassoaring.org to
see their proclamation of an instructor shortage which is causing a
delay in training for new members. Pay for instruction has come up
before at TSA and it will be discussed again in the very near future
as an alternative to the free/volunteer instruction program which is
currently insufficient for the clubs needs.

[[email protected]]

> Towing is a potentially dangerous job that
> requires precision flying and very good judgement. The club should encourage
> all tow pilots to develop their skills and demonstrate them by obtaining
> Commercial licenses. Required by FAA regulations or not, this would be a safe,
> conservative policy. Exactly the type of thing that would look very good to
> your insurance company, or (heaven forbid) in court.
>
> Vaughn
>
> Vaughn
>
>

Yes, it is dangerous and requires skill and judgement. Unfortunately,
the skills required for
towing are somewhat orthogonal to the skills the FAA requires of
commercial pilots.

Strange patterns, 360s on short final to yield the runway to gliders,
towing precisely to pattern
altitude at the IP, knowing when to circle in a thermal and when to
'take care of the student',
holding heading during a wake box, slip spiraling at 60% power to
avoid shock cooling
the engine, recognizing glider problems in the vibrating mirror,
guarding
the folks on the ground from the dangling towrope...

I could go on and on. None of these are part of the asel commercial
syllabus.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Oct 14, 7:06 am, wrote:
> > As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
> > cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.
>
> yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
> an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?

This waiver was negotiated by SSA and applies only to SSA chapter
clubs. I was club towing on a pvt cert when this came to a head maybe
15 years ago. I decided to get a restricted commercial (no instrument
rating). I would expect that the waiver is published on SSA website
but I don't have time to look now.

During that discussion FAA asserted that logging time was
compensation, hence the restriction on counting time towards new
ratings. It did not prohibit using the time to maintain currency for
existing ratings.

Andy

[Jeffrey Banks]

Sorry......I got it wrong on the Private pilot towing exceptions.
Somehow I forgot the changes to FAR part 61 ten years ago..

Must be a symptom of "half"-heimers........I seem to only be
remembering half of the stuff I use to. : )

Jeff Banks