AOA indicator pinout [Archive]

Dan[_2_]

October 16th 07, 10:59 PM

Morgans wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote
>
>> Mine reads to + 30º. I am finishing out an instrument panel for an
>> airplane I will never be able to afford to complete. My own design.
>
> Hmmm, interesting.
>
> Now that our curiosity is aroused, care to tell us more?
>
> Planform, construction materials/methods, approximate performance
> parameters, locomotion, how many places?
>
> So many questions! <;-))

1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at 75%
approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place. It started
as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements not being
available in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a rather neat
aircraft. I'm not going to build it because I will probably never get my
medical back, but I make sub assemblies for the fun of it. I have made
two main instrument panels for it, one IFR the other VFR. It's
occupational therapy :)

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

cavelamb himself[_4_]

October 16th 07, 11:32 PM

Dan wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
>
>> "Dan" > wrote
>>
>>> Mine reads to + 30º. I am finishing out an instrument panel for an
>>> airplane I will never be able to afford to complete. My own design.
>>
>>
>> Hmmm, interesting.
>>
>> Now that our curiosity is aroused, care to tell us more?
>>
>> Planform, construction materials/methods, approximate performance
>> parameters, locomotion, how many places?
>>
>> So many questions! <;-))
>
>
> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at 75%
> approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place. It started
> as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements not being
> available in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a rather neat
> aircraft. I'm not going to build it because I will probably never get my
> medical back, but I make sub assemblies for the fun of it. I have made
> two main instrument panels for it, one IFR the other VFR. It's
> occupational therapy :)
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I thought about building a cockpit simulator - for similar reasons.
Decided to go sailing instead.

But I certainly understand...

Richard

Les Matheson

October 17th 07, 01:27 AM

It may read to a number 40, but that is not degrees, it is units of AOA.

Units are relatable to Angle of Attack, but not equal to angle.

IIRC F-4 optimum turn was 16 units, not 16 degrees of AOA, buffet was 23
units. Pilots don't know degrees, they fly units. Test pilots and
engineers can tell you what the unit-angle relation is, but it isn't 1:1.

Les

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
> Interesting question. This AOA indicator reads out to +40 degrees and
> AFIK no general aviation airfoil stalls at more than 16 degrees. Whatcha
> usin' in on?
>
> Bill Daniels
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I need the pinout for ARK-10A/A24G-8 AOA indicator. Part number is
> > SLZ9421. Can anyone provide a source or the information?
> >
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 01:30 AM

cavelamb himself wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>> Morgans wrote:
>>
>>> "Dan" > wrote
>>>
>>>> Mine reads to + 30º. I am finishing out an instrument panel for an
>>>> airplane I will never be able to afford to complete. My own design.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmmm, interesting.
>>>
>>> Now that our curiosity is aroused, care to tell us more?
>>>
>>> Planform, construction materials/methods, approximate performance
>>> parameters, locomotion, how many places?
>>>
>>> So many questions! <;-))
>>
>>
>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at 75%
>> approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place. It
>> started as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements not
>> being available in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a rather neat
>> aircraft. I'm not going to build it because I will probably never get
>> my medical back, but I make sub assemblies for the fun of it. I have
>> made two main instrument panels for it, one IFR the other VFR. It's
>> occupational therapy :)
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I thought about building a cockpit simulator - for similar reasons.
> Decided to go sailing instead.
>
> But I certainly understand...
>
> Richard

Sailing has its advantages not the least of which is no FAA. I haven't
been sailing in decades, maybe I should build a boat instead.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Rich S.[_1_]

October 17th 07, 01:49 AM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
>
> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)

Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale . . ."
I envisioned a Cox .049. :))

Rich S.

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 02:32 AM

Rich S. wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)
>
> Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale . . ."
> I envisioned a Cox .049. :))
>
> Rich S.
>
>
You know it's just a matter of time before someone builds a man
capable airplane powered by a huge number of TeeDee .049 engines.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 02:35 AM

Les Matheson wrote:
> It may read to a number 40, but that is not degrees, it is units of AOA.
>
> Units are relatable to Angle of Attack, but not equal to angle.
>
> IIRC F-4 optimum turn was 16 units, not 16 degrees of AOA, buffet was 23
> units. Pilots don't know degrees, they fly units. Test pilots and
> engineers can tell you what the unit-angle relation is, but it isn't 1:1.
>
> Les
>
>
> "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
> . ..
>> Interesting question. This AOA indicator reads out to +40 degrees and
>> AFIK no general aviation airfoil stalls at more than 16 degrees. Whatcha
>> usin' in on?
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I need the pinout for ARK-10A/A24G-8 AOA indicator. Part number is
>>> SLZ9421. Can anyone provide a source or the information?
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>
Any idea what the conversion is? I have modified a vane AOA
transducer to use synchro. I suppose I could figure it out.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Morgans[_2_]

October 17th 07, 03:11 AM

"Dan" > wrote

> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at 75%
> approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place. It started
> as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements not being available
> in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a rather neat aircraft. I'm not
> going to build it because I will probably never get my medical back, but I
> make sub assemblies for the fun of it. I have made two main instrument
> panels for it, one IFR the other VFR. It's occupational therapy :)

Sounds cool!

Re think it as a two place, and find someone else that has the same dream,
or you can fly with another pilot.
--
Jim in NC

Bill Daniels

October 17th 07, 04:01 AM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> Rich S. wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)
>>
>> Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale . .
>> ." I envisioned a Cox .049. :))
>>
>> Rich S.
> You know it's just a matter of time before someone builds a man
> capable airplane powered by a huge number of TeeDee .049 engines.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

Hmm, just duct tape a bunch of them on a sailplane - mine only requires 20
pounds of thrust for level flight.

Bill Daniels

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 05:14 AM

Morgans wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote
>
>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at 75%
>> approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place. It started
>> as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements not being available
>> in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a rather neat aircraft. I'm not
>> going to build it because I will probably never get my medical back, but I
>> make sub assemblies for the fun of it. I have made two main instrument
>> panels for it, one IFR the other VFR. It's occupational therapy :)
>
> Sounds cool!
>
> Re think it as a two place, and find someone else that has the same dream,
> or you can fly with another pilot.

When I saw the two seater version of the real thing I thought about
it. Problem is I want a sliding canopy so that's out. Besides, despite
the back seat being closer to the CG the math gets complicated. In my
plan there's a hell hole on the bottom between the engines. In order to
make CG with the second seat I'd have to move the batteries aft to where
the access panel is.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 05:15 AM

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Rich S. wrote:
>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)
>>> Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale . .
>>> ." I envisioned a Cox .049. :))
>>>
>>> Rich S.
>> You know it's just a matter of time before someone builds a man
>> capable airplane powered by a huge number of TeeDee .049 engines.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
> Hmm, just duct tape a bunch of them on a sailplane - mine only requires 20
> pounds of thrust for level flight.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
Now THAT I'd like to see. You could do like the guy with the Cri Cri
did and use a pair of model jet engines.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

cavelamb himself[_4_]

October 17th 07, 05:49 AM

Dan wrote:
> cavelamb himself wrote:
>
>> Dan wrote:
>>
>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Dan" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>> Mine reads to + 30º. I am finishing out an instrument panel for
>>>>> an airplane I will never be able to afford to complete. My own design.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm, interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Now that our curiosity is aroused, care to tell us more?
>>>>
>>>> Planform, construction materials/methods, approximate performance
>>>> parameters, locomotion, how many places?
>>>>
>>>> So many questions! <;-))
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at 75%
>>> approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place. It
>>> started as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements not
>>> being available in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a rather neat
>>> aircraft. I'm not going to build it because I will probably never get
>>> my medical back, but I make sub assemblies for the fun of it. I have
>>> made two main instrument panels for it, one IFR the other VFR. It's
>>> occupational therapy :)
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>
>> I thought about building a cockpit simulator - for similar reasons.
>> Decided to go sailing instead.
>>
>> But I certainly understand...
>>
>> Richard
>
>
> Sailing has its advantages not the least of which is no FAA. I haven't
> been sailing in decades, maybe I should build a boat instead.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

if you want to build, build.
If you want to fly, buy.

Works the same with boats.

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 05:57 AM

cavelamb himself wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>
>>> Dan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Dan" > wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mine reads to + 30º. I am finishing out an instrument panel for
>>>>>> an airplane I will never be able to afford to complete. My own
>>>>>> design.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm, interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now that our curiosity is aroused, care to tell us more?
>>>>>
>>>>> Planform, construction materials/methods, approximate performance
>>>>> parameters, locomotion, how many places?
>>>>>
>>>>> So many questions! <;-))
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at
>>>> 75% approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place. It
>>>> started as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements not
>>>> being available in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a rather
>>>> neat aircraft. I'm not going to build it because I will probably
>>>> never get my medical back, but I make sub assemblies for the fun of
>>>> it. I have made two main instrument panels for it, one IFR the other
>>>> VFR. It's occupational therapy :)
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought about building a cockpit simulator - for similar reasons.
>>> Decided to go sailing instead.
>>>
>>> But I certainly understand...
>>>
>>> Richard
>>
>>
>> Sailing has its advantages not the least of which is no FAA. I
>> haven't been sailing in decades, maybe I should build a boat instead.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
> if you want to build, build.
> If you want to fly, buy.
>
> Works the same with boats.
>
>
>
>
See? There you go being practical again. I have plans for 12 - 16
foot sailboats. Maybe you can buy me a 42 footer for my birthday, it's 1
November :)

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

cavelamb himself[_4_]

October 17th 07, 06:15 AM

Dan wrote:

> cavelamb himself wrote:
>
>> Dan wrote:
>>
>>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Dan" > wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mine reads to + 30º. I am finishing out an instrument panel for
>>>>>>> an airplane I will never be able to afford to complete. My own
>>>>>>> design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm, interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now that our curiosity is aroused, care to tell us more?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Planform, construction materials/methods, approximate performance
>>>>>> parameters, locomotion, how many places?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So many questions! <;-))
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at
>>>>> 75% approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place.
>>>>> It started as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements
>>>>> not being available in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a
>>>>> rather neat aircraft. I'm not going to build it because I will
>>>>> probably never get my medical back, but I make sub assemblies for
>>>>> the fun of it. I have made two main instrument panels for it, one
>>>>> IFR the other VFR. It's occupational therapy :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought about building a cockpit simulator - for similar reasons.
>>>> Decided to go sailing instead.
>>>>
>>>> But I certainly understand...
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sailing has its advantages not the least of which is no FAA. I
>>> haven't been sailing in decades, maybe I should build a boat instead.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>
>>
>> if you want to build, build.
>> If you want to fly, buy.
>>
>> Works the same with boats.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> See? There you go being practical again. I have plans for 12 - 16
> foot sailboats. Maybe you can buy me a 42 footer for my birthday, it's 1
> November :)
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Get a smaller boat to start with.
They are a lot more fun and a whole lot less hassle.
(and a whole lot less expensive!)

I might offer to sell my Catalina 18 for your birthday.
But ONLY because I have a lead on a Catalina 30.
:)
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/index.htm

Richard, U.S. Navy, retired

Bill Daniels

October 17th 07, 03:49 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Rich S. wrote:
>>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)
>>>> Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale .
>>>> . ." I envisioned a Cox .049. :))
>>>>
>>>> Rich S.
>>> You know it's just a matter of time before someone builds a man
>>> capable airplane powered by a huge number of TeeDee .049 engines.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>
>>
>> Hmm, just duct tape a bunch of them on a sailplane - mine only requires
>> 20 pounds of thrust for level flight.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
> Now THAT I'd like to see. You could do like the guy with the Cri Cri did
> and use a pair of model jet engines.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.

Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really well.

Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well over
100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast would
provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just retract it an
you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 04:18 PM

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Bill Daniels wrote:
>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Rich S. wrote:
>>>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)
>>>>> Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale .
>>>>> . ." I envisioned a Cox .049. :))
>>>>>
>>>>> Rich S.
>>>> You know it's just a matter of time before someone builds a man
>>>> capable airplane powered by a huge number of TeeDee .049 engines.
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>
>>> Hmm, just duct tape a bunch of them on a sailplane - mine only requires
>>> 20 pounds of thrust for level flight.
>>>
>>> Bill Daniels
>> Now THAT I'd like to see. You could do like the guy with the Cri Cri did
>> and use a pair of model jet engines.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
> It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
>
> Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
> efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
> mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really well.
>
> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well over
> 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast would
> provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just retract it an
> you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
I hadn't realized it had been done. I wonder how altitude affects
performance of the engine.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 04:26 PM

cavelamb himself wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>
>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>
>>> Dan wrote:
>>>
>>>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Morgans wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Dan" > wrote
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mine reads to + 30º. I am finishing out an instrument panel
>>>>>>>> for an airplane I will never be able to afford to complete. My
>>>>>>>> own design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmmm, interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now that our curiosity is aroused, care to tell us more?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Planform, construction materials/methods, approximate performance
>>>>>>> parameters, locomotion, how many places?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So many questions! <;-))
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, Vne 350ish, range on internal fuel at
>>>>>> 75% approximately 400 miles, ducted fan (7,000 rpm-ish), 1 place.
>>>>>> It started as an mind exercise based on my headroom requirements
>>>>>> not being available in any homebuilt design plus A-10 being a
>>>>>> rather neat aircraft. I'm not going to build it because I will
>>>>>> probably never get my medical back, but I make sub assemblies for
>>>>>> the fun of it. I have made two main instrument panels for it, one
>>>>>> IFR the other VFR. It's occupational therapy :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought about building a cockpit simulator - for similar reasons.
>>>>> Decided to go sailing instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I certainly understand...
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sailing has its advantages not the least of which is no FAA. I
>>>> haven't been sailing in decades, maybe I should build a boat instead.
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> if you want to build, build.
>>> If you want to fly, buy.
>>>
>>> Works the same with boats.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> See? There you go being practical again. I have plans for 12 - 16
>> foot sailboats. Maybe you can buy me a 42 footer for my birthday, it's
>> 1 November :)
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
> Get a smaller boat to start with.
> They are a lot more fun and a whole lot less hassle.
> (and a whole lot less expensive!)
>
> I might offer to sell my Catalina 18 for your birthday.
> But ONLY because I have a lead on a Catalina 30.
> :)
> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/index.htm
>
> Richard, U.S. Navy, retired

When I was in the Air Force I spent time at sea on Navy boats. My
primary function seemed to be getting lost on board those things. I
think I will stick to small boats.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

cavelamb himself[_4_]

October 17th 07, 04:57 PM

Bill Daniels wrote:

>
>
> It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
>
> Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
> efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
> mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really well.
>
> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well over
> 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast would
> provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just retract it an
> you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>

And what might those back of the envelope calculations say about
climb rate???

Morgans[_2_]

October 17th 07, 05:34 PM

"Dan" > wrote

> When I was in the Air Force I spent time at sea on Navy boats. My
> primary function seemed to be getting lost on board those things. I think
> I will stick to small boats.

If you want to dink around on inland lakes, a 16 or 19 foot is fine. If you
want to sleep aboard or go out on the Great Lakes or the Oceans, you need to
think in the 23 foot and up range.

As far as the smaller ones being easy to sail on, my dad and I started on an
O'day 25, and it was not hard at all. You might want to look into O'day if
you are buying. Shoal draft, swing board keel, and not to hard to trailer
with a 3/4 ton van or truck, with at least a 350 engine. I think you can
find them with an inboard diesel, and that is the way to go. We started
with an outboard, and we converted it to an inboard Yanmar diesel. Tricky,
but my dad was an engineer, and we figured it out just fine. Plenty of room
to sleep aboard, but I don't think you would want to live aboard for very
long. You could, if it was just 2 people, and you put in some extras,
though.

I know what you mean about thinking of building a boat. The thought has
crossed my mind more than once.;-)

An airplane is more capable of getting to more places more rapidly, though!
(required aviation component<g>)
--
Jim in NC

Morgans[_2_]

October 17th 07, 05:39 PM

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote

> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well over
> 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast would
> provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just retract it an
> you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.

Hummm, you could mount one solid in the tail cone, and duct a NACA inlet to
it, with a closeable sliding door on it.

That would really be slick!

I wonder how much thrust you would need to rise off ground?
--
Jim in NC

Dan[_2_]

October 17th 07, 05:53 PM

Morgans wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote
>
>> When I was in the Air Force I spent time at sea on Navy boats. My
>> primary function seemed to be getting lost on board those things. I think
>> I will stick to small boats.
>
> If you want to dink around on inland lakes, a 16 or 19 foot is fine. If you
> want to sleep aboard or go out on the Great Lakes or the Oceans, you need to
> think in the 23 foot and up range.
>
> As far as the smaller ones being easy to sail on, my dad and I started on an
> O'day 25, and it was not hard at all. You might want to look into O'day if
> you are buying. Shoal draft, swing board keel, and not to hard to trailer
> with a 3/4 ton van or truck, with at least a 350 engine. I think you can
> find them with an inboard diesel, and that is the way to go. We started
> with an outboard, and we converted it to an inboard Yanmar diesel. Tricky,
> but my dad was an engineer, and we figured it out just fine. Plenty of room
> to sleep aboard, but I don't think you would want to live aboard for very
> long. You could, if it was just 2 people, and you put in some extras,
> though.
>
> I know what you mean about thinking of building a boat. The thought has
> crossed my mind more than once.;-)
>
> An airplane is more capable of getting to more places more rapidly, though!
> (required aviation component<g>)

I did some ocean sailing on a wood Sailfish when I was in high
school. It was fun, but not recommended. I also did Hurricane Island
Outward Bound way back before 'lectricity was invented. Those pulling
boats were a gas.

Back to aviation content: I still need the pin out for the indicator.
I have no idea who made it so I can't contact the manufacturer.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Al G[_1_]

October 17th 07, 06:34 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message ...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Bill Daniels wrote:
>>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Rich S. wrote:
>>>>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)
>>>>>> Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale
>>>>>> . . ." I envisioned a Cox .049. :))
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rich S.
>>>>> You know it's just a matter of time before someone builds a man
>>>>> capable airplane powered by a huge number of TeeDee .049 engines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>>
>>>> Hmm, just duct tape a bunch of them on a sailplane - mine only requires
>>>> 20 pounds of thrust for level flight.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Daniels
>>> Now THAT I'd like to see. You could do like the guy with the Cri Cri
>>> did and use a pair of model jet engines.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>
>>
>> It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
>>
>> Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
>> efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
>> mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really
>> well.
>>
>> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
>> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well
>> over 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast
>> would provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just
>> retract it an you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>> Bill Daniels
> I hadn't realized it had been done. I wonder how altitude affects
> performance of the engine.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

So what kind of license/type rating does it take to fly a Twin TurboJet
self launched sailplane for hire? Does it require a second in command? An
ELT? How about fuel reserves?

Al G

Wayne Paul

October 17th 07, 07:20 PM

"Al G" > wrote in message
...
>

> So what kind of license/type rating does it take to fly a Twin TurboJet
> self launched sailplane for hire? Does it require a second in command? An
> ELT? How about fuel reserves?
>
> Al G

You will need a commercial glider rating with "self launch" log book
endorsement. Currently an ELT isn't required in a sailplane.

The primary purpose of a glider, of any kind, is to use atomespherephic
conditions to maintain flight. Therefore the engine(s) are used to launch
the glider and reserve isn't an issue.

Respectfully,

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

Bill Daniels

October 17th 07, 08:19 PM

"Al G" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Bill Daniels wrote:
>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Bill Daniels wrote:
>>>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Rich S. wrote:
>>>>>>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> 1/2 scale A-10, aluminum, (snip)
>>>>>>> Whew! Had to read that three times. I thought you said, "1/2 A scale
>>>>>>> . . ." I envisioned a Cox .049. :))
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rich S.
>>>>>> You know it's just a matter of time before someone builds a man
>>>>>> capable airplane powered by a huge number of TeeDee .049 engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm, just duct tape a bunch of them on a sailplane - mine only
>>>>> requires 20 pounds of thrust for level flight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Daniels
>>>> Now THAT I'd like to see. You could do like the guy with the Cri Cri
>>>> did and use a pair of model jet engines.
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
>>>
>>> Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
>>> efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
>>> mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
>>> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well
>>> over 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water
>>> ballast would provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits,
>>> just retract it an you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
>>>
>>> Bill Daniels
>>>
>>> Bill Daniels
>> I hadn't realized it had been done. I wonder how altitude affects
>> performance of the engine.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> So what kind of license/type rating does it take to fly a Twin TurboJet
> self launched sailplane for hire? Does it require a second in command? An
> ELT? How about fuel reserves?
>
> Al G

The 'for hire' part of your question means you need a commercial glider
rating. To that rating you need to add a "self launch" endorsement that is
provided by a glider flight instructor who must also have the endorsement.
AFAIK, the number of engines has no significance in motorgliders - there
being no standard category multi-engine motorgliders.

The problem is that if the glider in question has a standard category
airworthiness certificate, adding microjet engines would require a
modification of that certificate - pretty unlikely under the current
regulatory regime. That complicates the 'for hire' part. For a homebuilt
experimental, or exibition & racing, you're on your own.

For Dan's earlier question about performance at altitude, what I hear from
Bob is that it looks pretty good. His real concern was restarts at
altitude. He made a big improvement in that by switching from glo-plugs to
spark igniters. As I understand it, the micomputer engine controller senses
altitude and adjusts the engine to adapt.

The normal operational mode for me would be to fill the tanks with Jet-A and
then launch the glider by normal means retaining the fuel as mere ballast.
When the day ends and a glide home is problematic, I'd start the jets and
climb to 17,500 and shut them down again for a 150 mile glide. If that
wasn't sufficient, I'd just do it again. You can't overstate just how
beautiful a long, silent glide like that is.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

October 17th 07, 08:26 PM

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
>>
>> Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
>> efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
>> mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really
>> well.
>>
>> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
>> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well
>> over 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast
>> would provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just
>> retract it an you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>
> And what might those back of the envelope calculations say about
> climb rate???

Not bad, around 300 - 400 FPM.

The problem is the takeoff roll. I would expect that with full tanks at a
gross weight of 1422 pounds, full throttle wouldn't move the glider from a
standstill. Even if the glider started rolling, the wing runner had better
be able to do a 4-minute mile - the acceleration to an airspeed where I had
reasonable aileron authority would take a fair amount of time and distance.
I'd plan to use an aero tow or a winch launch before air-starting the
engines.

Bill Daniels

cavelamb himself[_4_]

October 17th 07, 10:24 PM

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
>>>
>>>Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
>>>efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
>>>mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
>>>microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well
>>>over 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast
>>>would provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just
>>>retract it an you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
>>>
>>>Bill Daniels
>>>
>>>Bill Daniels
>>
>>And what might those back of the envelope calculations say about
>>climb rate???
>
>
> Not bad, around 300 - 400 FPM.
>
> The problem is the takeoff roll. I would expect that with full tanks at a
> gross weight of 1422 pounds, full throttle wouldn't move the glider from a
> standstill. Even if the glider started rolling, the wing runner had better
> be able to do a 4-minute mile - the acceleration to an airspeed where I had
> reasonable aileron authority would take a fair amount of time and distance.
> I'd plan to use an aero tow or a winch launch before air-starting the
> engines.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>

It takes a bunch f seconds to start those things.
Mose have computer controls that will autostart it,
but it takes time.

I've seen one SMALL one (25 lb thrust?) run.
You can watch the fuel level drop!

Morgans[_2_]

October 17th 07, 10:37 PM

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote

> For Dan's earlier question about performance at altitude, what I hear from
> Bob is that it looks pretty good. His real concern was restarts at
> altitude. He made a big improvement in that by switching from glo-plugs
> to spark igniters. As I understand it, the micomputer engine controller
> senses altitude and adjusts the engine to adapt.

I also hear that the life of the engine, and especially the bearings (the
most prone to need replaced first) have been much improved in many brands of
engines, and that the little engines run happily for many hours.

Some of the engines out there are getting pretty big, and with big thrust
values to go along with it.

I'm thinking that a pair of them would make self launching possible; if not
completely unassisted, with an auto towing down the runway to, say, 30 or 40
feet of altitude?

Then, if a cruise at the same altitude was needed to get home, or whatever,
one could be shut down.
--
Jim in NC

Bill Daniels

October 18th 07, 04:28 AM

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote
>
>> For Dan's earlier question about performance at altitude, what I hear
>> from Bob is that it looks pretty good. His real concern was restarts at
>> altitude. He made a big improvement in that by switching from glo-plugs
>> to spark igniters. As I understand it, the micomputer engine controller
>> senses altitude and adjusts the engine to adapt.
>
> I also hear that the life of the engine, and especially the bearings (the
> most prone to need replaced first) have been much improved in many brands
> of engines, and that the little engines run happily for many hours.
>
> Some of the engines out there are getting pretty big, and with big thrust
> values to go along with it.
>
> I'm thinking that a pair of them would make self launching possible; if
> not completely unassisted, with an auto towing down the runway to, say, 30
> or 40 feet of altitude?
>
> Then, if a cruise at the same altitude was needed to get home, or
> whatever, one could be shut down.
> --
> Jim in NC

I think the whole thing is coming together. The neat thing is most of these
engines only cost a few thousand dollars. Yes, they are thirsty but the
sailplane application is unique in that they need not run very long. One
thing seldom mentioned is that these little turbines whine at 150,000 RPM is
way above human hearing. All you hear is the exhaust roar and that isn't
too loud.

Takeoff will be a problem until we get workable afterburners. (It's been
done.) You'd only need the re-heat for a few seconds until liftoff.
Another takeoff aid that has been proposed is a bungee launch.

Although everybody in the know says the jet exhaust from a single piggyback
engine aimed at the fin doesn't do any harm, I'd like a little more
information on that.

Bill Daniels

John Keeney

October 18th 07, 07:49 AM

On Oct 17, 3:26 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> >> It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
>
> >> Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
> >> efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
> >> mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really
> >> well.
>
> >> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
> >> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well
> >> over 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast
> >> would provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just
> >> retract it an you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
>
> >> Bill Daniels
>
> >> Bill Daniels
>
> > And what might those back of the envelope calculations say about
> > climb rate???
>
> Not bad, around 300 - 400 FPM.
>
> The problem is the takeoff roll. I would expect that with full tanks at a
> gross weight of 1422 pounds, full throttle wouldn't move the glider from a
> standstill. Even if the glider started rolling, the wing runner had better
> be able to do a 4-minute mile - the acceleration to an airspeed where I had
> reasonable aileron authority would take a fair amount of time and distance.
> I'd plan to use an aero tow or a winch launch before air-starting the
> engines.
>
> Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

Think "upper surface blowing" and several across each wing. Does make
retraction a problem though.

Alan Baker

October 18th 07, 07:58 AM

In article . com>,
John Keeney > wrote:

> On Oct 17, 3:26 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> > "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> >
> > ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Bill Daniels wrote:
> >
> > >> It's been done. Bob Carlton has an airshow act with a jet sailplane.
> >
> > >> Jet sailplanes may well have a real future. Although the specific fuel
> > >> efficiency of model airplane dog whistles is terrible, (but improving)
> > >> mating them with an extremely efficient airframe seems to work really
> > >> well.
> >
> > >> Some 'back of the envelope' calcualtions show that a single RC model
> > >> microjet in the 50 Lb thrust range would push my glider along at well
> > >> over 100 knots. The 75 gallon wing tanks normally used for water ballast
> > >> would provide a very nice range. If the 'dog whistle' quits, just
> > >> retract it an you still have a 50:1 glide ratio.
> >
> > >> Bill Daniels
> >
> > >> Bill Daniels
> >
> > > And what might those back of the envelope calculations say about
> > > climb rate???
> >
> > Not bad, around 300 - 400 FPM.
> >
> > The problem is the takeoff roll. I would expect that with full tanks at a
> > gross weight of 1422 pounds, full throttle wouldn't move the glider from a
> > standstill. Even if the glider started rolling, the wing runner had better
> > be able to do a 4-minute mile - the acceleration to an airspeed where I had
> > reasonable aileron authority would take a fair amount of time and distance.
> > I'd plan to use an aero tow or a winch launch before air-starting the
> > engines.
> >
> > Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -
>
> Think "upper surface blowing" and several across each wing. Does make
> retraction a problem though.

Think RATO...

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."