Transporting O2 safely

[Michael Horowitz]

Time to get a refill on my "J" size O2 cylinder.
I usually build a cradle out of 4x4 so it can't roll and something at
the ends to keep it from sliding. This goes in the back of the
Explorer.
Anyone have a better scheme for moving a full cylinder? Mike

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> Time to get a refill on my "J" size O2 cylinder.
> I usually build a cradle out of 4x4 so it can't roll and something at
> the ends to keep it from sliding. This goes in the back of the
> Explorer.
> Anyone have a better scheme for moving a full cylinder? Mike


They are really supposed to be moved upright, only. Do you have a utility
trailer that you could chain it into the corner? Chain is also the supposed
requirement over rope or bungee cords.
--
Jim in NC

[Wayne Paul]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Time to get a refill on my "J" size O2 cylinder.
>> I usually build a cradle out of 4x4 so it can't roll and something at
>> the ends to keep it from sliding. This goes in the back of the
>> Explorer.
>> Anyone have a better scheme for moving a full cylinder? Mike
>
>
> They are really supposed to be moved upright, only. Do you have a utility
> trailer that you could chain it into the corner? Chain is also the
> supposed requirement over rope or bungee cords.
> --
> Jim in NC

Jim,

Why does a J size oxygen bottle need to be transported upright? Is the
something different about the J bottle then the FAA approved "F" bottle
horizontal mount in my glider? Or the multiple welding size bottles that
are mounted horizontal on a trailer at a recent FBO I visited?
http://www.mhoxygen.com/index.phtml?nav_id=33&prd_group_id=8

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Maxwell]

"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Time to get a refill on my "J" size O2 cylinder.
>>> I usually build a cradle out of 4x4 so it can't roll and something at
>>> the ends to keep it from sliding. This goes in the back of the
>>> Explorer.
>>> Anyone have a better scheme for moving a full cylinder? Mike
>>
>>
>> They are really supposed to be moved upright, only. Do you have a
>> utility trailer that you could chain it into the corner? Chain is also
>> the supposed requirement over rope or bungee cords.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
> Jim,
>
> Why does a J size oxygen bottle need to be transported upright? Is the
> something different about the J bottle then the FAA approved "F" bottle
> horizontal mount in my glider? Or the multiple welding size bottles that
> are mounted horizontal on a trailer at a recent FBO I visited?
> http://www.mhoxygen.com/index.phtml?nav_id=33&prd_group_id=8
>

My supplier claims it's a Federal DOT requirement for motor vehicles. So
their employees will not load a vehicle that cannot be loaded vertically.
But they have never stopped me (or anyone else) from loading one myself,
laying down in my pick-up. This goes for all gasses. Ox, Argon, Nitrogen,
CO2, Acty.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Wayne Paul" > wrote

> Jim,
>
> Why does a J size oxygen bottle need to be transported upright? Is the
> something different about the J bottle then the FAA approved "F" bottle
> horizontal mount in my glider? Or the multiple welding size bottles that
> are mounted horizontal on a trailer at a recent FBO I visited?
> http://www.mhoxygen.com/index.phtml?nav_id=33&prd_group_id=8

All good questions, but the kicker is that it is DOT regulations for
transporting bottles over the road. Your plane and the FBO carts are not on
the road.

I've just spent close to an hour looking for a reg to cite, but you know how
it goes; when you want to find something specific on the web, you find
everything but.....

Still, I'm pretty sure it exists. I was able to find regs (OSHA) that
requires upright transport and use, but not any DOT regs.

If anyone knows of a reg and how to find it, I would like to see it, or if
you know of an exception that allows horizontal transport of compressed gas
bottles, I'd like to see that, too.
--
Jim in NC

[Drew Dalgleish]

I thought it was just acetelyne that needs to go upright or be upright
for 1/2 an hour before using. Oxygen can transport any way you please.
In my area all the gas companies deliver.

>
>"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>> Time to get a refill on my "J" size O2 cylinder.
>> I usually build a cradle out of 4x4 so it can't roll and something at
>> the ends to keep it from sliding. This goes in the back of the
>> Explorer.
>> Anyone have a better scheme for moving a full cylinder? Mike
>
>
>They are really supposed to be moved upright, only. Do you have a utility
>trailer that you could chain it into the corner? Chain is also the supposed
>requirement over rope or bungee cords.
>--
>Jim in NC
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

Michael Horowitz wrote:
> Time to get a refill on my "J" size O2 cylinder.
> I usually build a cradle out of 4x4 so it can't roll and something at
> the ends to keep it from sliding. This goes in the back of the
> Explorer.
> Anyone have a better scheme for moving a full cylinder? Mike
>
The cylinder, if it is designed to have one, should be fitted
with a cap. If not, it should have some other protection over
the valve. I generally just cram in the seat of my extended
cab which will not let it roll.

For larger cylilnders, you can get foam blocks at any dive
shop that are designed to hold scuba cyls.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Drew Dalgleish" > wrote in message
...
>I thought it was just acetelyne that needs to go upright or be upright
> for 1/2 an hour before using. Oxygen can transport any way you please.
> In my area all the gas companies deliver.

It does say that they have to be secured somehow, or in a rack.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Marc J. Zeitlin" > wrote >

> See:
> http://tinyurl.com/yvt3uj
>
> Looks to me like either vertical or horizontal is OK, judging by
> paragraph (1).

Interesting. I was sure that upright was the only legal way. It does say
they need to be secure, and if the floor is not flat, in a rack of some
type.

Thanks for locating the site.

Then you listed: > http://hazmat.dot.gov/files/gstomo.pdf

> says vertical or horizontal.

That was for medical oygen, and is speaking directly to the situation where
the bus full of old people caught fire, and the oxygen cooked all of them.
Sad.

Interesting that I found all kinds of links about that situation.

> Cryogenics look like they have to be vertical, however.

Because of the need for the relief valve to be in the vapor portion of the
tank, I believe. I think I read that if not vertical, the valve needs to be
in communication to the vapor, or something like that.

Off this subject a bit, but perhaps not too far off.

How is the investigation to the explosion at Scaled getting along? Any idea
when a report will be released?

I'm sure you are not allowed to say much, but I (an others) are interested
in seeing what caused the tragedy, and how it will be avoided in future
situations. I thought you might be able to at least say what the time table
for results is likely to be.

I hope things are going well, with the progress on the next version. Keep
on, keeping on!
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.[_1_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> It does say that they have to be secured somehow, or in a rack.

That's so's we don't knock them over with our fire streams and bust their
little heads off. Picture it. Firefighter crawls into burning room. Opens
nozzle. Tanks falls away from him. Valve busts off when it hits floor. Tanks
returns favor back at firefighter. Ouch!

Did you se the Mythbusters episode where they decapitated a cylinder and it
whooshed through the concrete block wall?

Other than that, the reason to use an Acetylene cylinder while upright is
that the Acetylene is dissolved in Acetone which is then infused in
diatamacious earth within the tank. If used in anything but a vertical
position, the Acetone may escape through the piping and hose.

See
http://www.airproducts.com/nr/rdonlyres/9d325c49-7c62-41e5-aa0b-8411db4d84f8/0/safety13.pdf

Rich S.

[jerry wass]

Rich S. wrote:
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It does say that they have to be secured somehow, or in a rack.
>
> That's so's we don't knock them over with our fire streams and bust their
> little heads off. Picture it. Firefighter crawls into burning room. Opens
> nozzle. Tanks falls away from him. Valve busts off when it hits floor. Tanks
> returns favor back at firefighter. Ouch!
>
> Did you se the Mythbusters episode where they decapitated a cylinder and it
> whooshed through the concrete block wall?
>
> Other than that, the reason to use an Acetylene cylinder while upright is
> that the Acetylene is dissolved in Acetone which is then infused in
> diatamacious earth within the tank. If used in anything but a vertical
> position, the Acetone may escape through the piping and hose.
>
> See
> http://www.airproducts.com/nr/rdonlyres/9d325c49-7c62-41e5-aa0b-8411db4d84f8/0/safety13.pdf
>
> Rich S.
>
>
More on acetylene---T.A. Wells,Chief Engr. for Beech, says, carryover of
acetylene into a weld will contaminate it--He also stated, leave a small
% in the cylinder to prevent rapid boil-off & carryover at the last
moment of use.

He wrote a teriffic book--Well's Manual of aircraft materials and
manufacturing processes.

Jerry

[stol]

!
>
> Did you se the Mythbusters episode where they decapitated a cylinder and it
> whooshed through the concrete block wall?
>
..airproducts.com/nr/rdonlyres/9d325c49-7c62-41e5-aa0b-8411d...
>
> Rich S.

I saw that episode and I honestly thought it would have done alot more
damage then it did. Urban myths had tanks traveling thousands of feet
and going through poured concrete walls with ease.

Ben

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Rich S." < wrote

> Did you se the Mythbusters episode where they decapitated a cylinder and
> it whooshed through the concrete block wall?
>
Yep; and that confirms what I had heard, before.

At one time, I had a co-worker that was known for telling tall tales. He
had a doozie about the valve being broken off an Oxygen bottle, that I
didn't quite buy in its entirety. I don't recall exactly what it was now,
but I didn't have a problem with the basics of the tale.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"stol" > wrote

> I saw that episode and I honestly thought it would have done alot more
> damage then it did. Urban myths had tanks traveling thousands of feet
> and going through poured concrete walls with ease.

That might be possible with an optimum sized hole, and nozzle, but even
then, the weight of the container is substantial. If it were a light
container, it might accellerate quickly enough to build some momentum.

Poured concrete with rebar is probably above the realm of obtainable,
though. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.[_1_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> At one time, I had a co-worker that was known for telling tall tales. He
> had a doozie about the valve being broken off an Oxygen bottle, that I
> didn't quite buy in its entirety. I don't recall exactly what it was now,
> but I didn't have a problem with the basics of the tale.

Wonder if Moller could use a bunch of NO3 bottles as a "ballistic
parachute"? Trigging them off would arrest the fall and render witnesses
inert and happy. :)

Rich S.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Marc J. Zeitlin" > wrote

> As are we all. We believe that we're beginning to understand the
> issues and can deal with them, but obviously I can't say anything
> until the full report(s) are released.
>
>> ... I thought you might be able to at least say what the time table
>> for results is likely to be.
>
> Nope - sorry.

Well, good enough; it will have to be. I am glad to hear that you are
starting to understand what happened, and how to work around it.

Understand, that many of us think the work Scaled is doing is way too cool,
and are very interested in what is happening with your programs. I wish I
had some expertise that would make me employable at Scaled, really! <g>

It is with that interest that I wondered how things are going with the
investigation, and Scaled attempting to get things back to normal.

Good to hear from you, and looking forward to the "next generation"
spaceship showing up at OSH! :-)
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Rich S." <> wrote
>
> Wonder if Moller could use a bunch of NO3 bottles as a "ballistic
> parachute"? Trigging them off would arrest the fall and render witnesses
> inert and happy. :)

The devil would be in the details, though.

Imagine that the (insert here, whatever his little "tether bound" Jetson's
car is called) is upside-down, right close to the ground, and the bottles
fire.

Ouch?

Not that they would have enough power to stop the fall, even if they were
upright, anyway.

Inverted fired bottles would be a nice touch, though. Kinda' like spiking
the football after a touchdown, if you can conjure up the mental image! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.[_1_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> Imagine that the (insert here, whatever his little "tether bound" Jetson's
> car is called) is upside-down, right close to the ground, and the bottles
> fire.
>
> Ouch?

I was in the tower at Wright-Patterson AFB many years ago. There were a
bunch of F-102's doing touch and go's just about sunset. The afterburners
were clearly visible, throwing ten foot long flames as they went around.

The controller suddenly grabbed his mike and hollered, "Aircraft on short
final, your gear is up! Go around, GO AROUND!".

The F-102 grabbed a handful of stick, pulled the nose almost vertical and
shoved the throttle to the stop. As the attitude passed vertical, I saw the
engine blow parts out of the nose and tail simultaneously. The plane
continued it's rotation until it was inverted, flying backwards a few feet
above the runway.

As it settled lower, the pilot ejected. He didn't quite clear the cockpit
when the whole thing impacted. It slid a long way.

The next day, my brother took me for a ride in a TF-102 to clear my head. It
worked.

Rich S.

[Dave S]

Morgans wrote:
> "stol" > wrote
>
>> I saw that episode and I honestly thought it would have done alot more
>> damage then it did. Urban myths had tanks traveling thousands of feet
>> and going through poured concrete walls with ease.
>

Once upon a time, one of our firefighters was setting down his SCBA
bottle (for firefighter breathing apparatus) and made a single error of
omission. He had an OLD bottle with a rounded bottom, instead of a newer
bottle with a flat bottom. Flat bottles stand upright.

This one fell over, striking the valve stem. It hop skipped and jumped
100 yards to the treeline, then ricochet'd around in the forest. Nobody
was in the way.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Rich S." <> wrote

> As it settled lower, the pilot ejected. He didn't quite clear the cockpit
> when the whole thing impacted. It slid a long way.
>
> The next day, my brother took me for a ride in a TF-102 to clear my head.
> It worked.

That is too ugly to hear about, let alone, having to see it happen right in
front of you.

I imagine the ride helped, but that you can still picture the whole thing
playing out in your mind's eye, in vivid color, even today.
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.[_1_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> That is too ugly to hear about, let alone, having to see it happen right
> in front of you.

Fortunately it took place a mile or so away from the tower, so it's not like
right in front. I was 13 or 14 at the time.

Rich S.

[D.Smith]

Morgans wrote:
> "stol" > wrote
>
>
>>I saw that episode and I honestly thought it would have done alot more
>>damage then it did. Urban myths had tanks traveling thousands of feet
>>and going through poured concrete walls with ease.
>
>
> That might be possible with an optimum sized hole, and nozzle, but even
> then, the weight of the container is substantial. If it were a light
> container, it might accellerate quickly enough to build some momentum.
>
Momentum should be the same - light or heavy container. Only other
effects would modify this (like scraping along the ground).