Odyssey Battery-Jerry Springer

[Badwater Bill]

Okay Jerry, I took your advice and spent $135 bucks today for an
Odyssey 16 Amp-hr dry cell that weighs 15 pounds (the 680). I cut the
aluminum for a bracket on the gyroscope to mount it but I gotta get
Kevin to TIG weld it later today.

As far as the battery goes, I hope that MOFO spools me up more than
once and still starts the Rotax 582 to boot. I don't know how much
current I'm pulling on the startup of the main rotor system but I'm
using jumper cable wire and it heats up. I think I'll hand start the
blades a bit first instead of just doing the dead start because the
dead start looks like a dead short for the first few seconds of the
sequence. When I was buying this battery at the store the guys there
told me it was designed for Harley's of all things. They also told me
that a battery that cost's half as much is the Deka Battery. But, the
Deka does have a vent and it's a high pressure vent, where the Odyssey
has none and no acid can leak out.

I've not been to the Deka site to see the specs but I do have a spec
sheet. Nowhere does it say that you can deep discharge this baby like
the Odyssey and recharge it completely--400 times. Jesus...400 deep
cycle recharges on the odyssey and they warrantee it. That's kicking
some tall ass to do that.

Another goofy thing about the Odyssey is that you can't recharge it
using a trickle charger. Less than 1.25 Amps won't put all the energy
back into the battery. You have to use a 10 Amp charger to get back
to full energy. Anybody know the chemistry behind that? I don't get
it. Lead peroxide is lead peroxide. When you drive the sulfate off
the lead atom and reattach an oxygen, what the hell difference does it
make how fast you do it (high Amps)? The only thing I can think of is
that the battery itself has an internal resistance of 7 Ohms so the
higher the current, the higher the temperature of the battery itself.
And, as you all know, for every 10 degrees Centigrade, the chemical
reactivity rate coefficient doubles. So, the rate constant will be
higher for the charge cycle on a hot battery. They say you can
completely recharge this baby in 2 hours if you use 10 Amps. I'm
thinking that it heats up...that's why!

Badwater "I got me a new stinking battery" Bill

[Jerry Springer]

Ouch, :-( Sunn battery has them for $74.00+ $5.00 shipping. That was in
my first message about the battery. I hope it works for you Bill, really
works great in my RV. Better than any Gell cell, or RG battery I have
ever tried before.
http://sunnbattery.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=553828%7C1209500&PRID=1292858
Jerry

Badwater Bill wrote:
> Okay Jerry, I took your advice and spent $135 bucks today for an
> Odyssey 16 Amp-hr dry cell that weighs 15 pounds (the 680). I cut the
> aluminum for a bracket on the gyroscope to mount it but I gotta get
> Kevin to TIG weld it later today.
>
> As far as the battery goes, I hope that MOFO spools me up more than
> once and still starts the Rotax 582 to boot. I don't know how much
> current I'm pulling on the startup of the main rotor system but I'm
> using jumper cable wire and it heats up. I think I'll hand start the
> blades a bit first instead of just doing the dead start because the
> dead start looks like a dead short for the first few seconds of the
> sequence. When I was buying this battery at the store the guys there
> told me it was designed for Harley's of all things. They also told me
> that a battery that cost's half as much is the Deka Battery. But, the
> Deka does have a vent and it's a high pressure vent, where the Odyssey
> has none and no acid can leak out.
>
> I've not been to the Deka site to see the specs but I do have a spec
> sheet. Nowhere does it say that you can deep discharge this baby like
> the Odyssey and recharge it completely--400 times. Jesus...400 deep
> cycle recharges on the odyssey and they warrantee it. That's kicking
> some tall ass to do that.
>
> Another goofy thing about the Odyssey is that you can't recharge it
> using a trickle charger. Less than 1.25 Amps won't put all the energy
> back into the battery. You have to use a 10 Amp charger to get back
> to full energy. Anybody know the chemistry behind that? I don't get
> it. Lead peroxide is lead peroxide. When you drive the sulfate off
> the lead atom and reattach an oxygen, what the hell difference does it
> make how fast you do it (high Amps)? The only thing I can think of is
> that the battery itself has an internal resistance of 7 Ohms so the
> higher the current, the higher the temperature of the battery itself.
> And, as you all know, for every 10 degrees Centigrade, the chemical
> reactivity rate coefficient doubles. So, the rate constant will be
> higher for the charge cycle on a hot battery. They say you can
> completely recharge this baby in 2 hours if you use 10 Amps. I'm
> thinking that it heats up...that's why!
>
> Badwater "I got me a new stinking battery" Bill

[Barnyard BOb --]

>Okay Jerry, I took your advice and spent $135 bucks today for an
>Odyssey 16 Amp-hr dry cell that weighs 15 pounds (the 680). I cut the
>aluminum for a bracket on the gyroscope to mount it but I gotta get
>Kevin to TIG weld it later today.

>Badwater "I got me a new stinking battery" Bill
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I ain't no genius, but my thoughts are that....
the Odyssey battery is all wrong for your application.

Now go ahead and make a fool of me. <g>


Barnyard BOb -- needing of a large charge

[Jerry Springer]

Barnyard BOb -- wrote:
>
>>Okay Jerry, I took your advice and spent $135 bucks today for an
>>Odyssey 16 Amp-hr dry cell that weighs 15 pounds (the 680). I cut the
>>aluminum for a bracket on the gyroscope to mount it but I gotta get
>>Kevin to TIG weld it later today.
>
>
>>Badwater "I got me a new stinking battery" Bill
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> I ain't no genius, but my thoughts are that....
> the Odyssey battery is all wrong for your application.
>
> Now go ahead and make a fool of me. <g>
>
>
> Barnyard BOb -- needing of a large charge
>
If he is using a battery which one would work better Bob?

[Barnyard BOb --]

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:41:14 GMT, Jerry Springer
> wrote:

>
>
>Barnyard BOb -- wrote:
>>
>>>Okay Jerry, I took your advice and spent $135 bucks today for an
>>>Odyssey 16 Amp-hr dry cell that weighs 15 pounds (the 680). I cut the
>>>aluminum for a bracket on the gyroscope to mount it but I gotta get
>>>Kevin to TIG weld it later today.
>>
>>
>>>Badwater "I got me a new stinking battery" Bill
>>
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> I ain't no genius, but my thoughts are that....
>> the Odyssey battery is all wrong for your application.
>>
>> Now go ahead and make a fool of me. <g>
>>
>>
>> Barnyard BOb -- needing of a large charge
>>
>If he is using a battery which one would work better Bob?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How about a_40 lb_Odyssey, Jerry? <g>

The first concern is to successfully SIZE the battery
to this unique demanding application. A 16 amp-hour
Odyssey is going to empty out pretty quick unless one
is willing to start the blades rotating by hand. If one has
to do that, one may decide that the starter, battery, etc are
not worth all the time, effort, weight, complexity and cost.

OTOH......
just keep upsizing the battery until satisfactory performance
is achieved or the gyro is too heavy to fly. <g>

All this is going through my mind without a shred of
practical experience. So.... take it for what it's worth.


Barnyard BOb -- thinking out loud

[Rob Cherney]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:32:20 GMT, (Badwater
Bill) wrote:

>Another goofy thing about the Odyssey is that you can't recharge it
>using a trickle charger. Less than 1.25 Amps won't put all the energy
>back into the battery. You have to use a 10 Amp charger to get back
>to full energy.

From their data, it looks like the charge efficiency sharply decreases
below 0.1C (1C = rated A-h @ 10h discharge rate). This is 1.6A for
your battery. Note that this only applies to a fully discharged
battery.

> Anybody know the chemistry behind that? I don't get
>it. Lead peroxide is lead peroxide. When you drive the sulfate off
>the lead atom and reattach an oxygen, what the hell difference does it
>make how fast you do it (high Amps)?

Hawker doesn't say specifically, but reading between the lines it
looks like it could be a function of the small amount of tin that's
added to the lead in the plates. This is done to increase service
life for deep-discharge applications. Don't ask me about tin
chemistry, though. I'm an electronics weenie.

> The only thing I can think of is
>that the battery itself has an internal resistance of 7 Ohms so the
>higher the current, the higher the temperature of the battery itself.
>And, as you all know, for every 10 degrees Centigrade, the chemical
>reactivity rate coefficient doubles.

Two things:

The internal resistance is 7 milliohms.

The primary aging mechanism for these batteries is corrosion of the
positive electrode grid. For this particular mechanism, the reaction
doubles every 8 °C, not 10° C as one would expect.

> So, the rate constant will be
>higher for the charge cycle on a hot battery. They say you can
>completely recharge this baby in 2 hours if you use 10 Amps. I'm
>thinking that it heats up...that's why!

Yep, and that's not unique to this particular battery.

Actually, Odyssey says the battery can be recharged in as little as 20
minutes, assuming you have a charger that's beefy enough (3.5C= 56 A).
At this rate, the internal temperature will rise about 20 °C and will
peak about the time charging current starts decreasing (assumes the
recommended voltage-limited constant-current charging).

For a 2-hour charge, the expected temperature rise will be only about
10 °C.

By the way, my information came from http://www.hepi.com/papers.htm.
I pretty sure the Odyssey battery is an evolution of the Cyclon and
Genesis batteries that are mentioned in the papers.

Lastly...

I did a lot of research on batteries and settled on the Odyssey when a
replacement was needed for Long-EZ N271J. I put a PC-925 (27 A-h) in
her back in February. So far, so good.


Rob-
------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Cherney e-mail: rcherney(at)comcast(dot)net

[Stu Fields]

I've been running an Odyssey PC 625 battery cranking my 0320 Lycoming for
several years. Cranke the think at 20 degrees in Canada. The only problem
was that I had to add some lead wts in the battery box to keep the c.g.
where it was.
Stu Fields
"Rob Cherney" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:32:20 GMT, (Badwater
> Bill) wrote:
>
> >Another goofy thing about the Odyssey is that you can't recharge it
> >using a trickle charger. Less than 1.25 Amps won't put all the energy
> >back into the battery. You have to use a 10 Amp charger to get back
> >to full energy.
>
> From their data, it looks like the charge efficiency sharply decreases
> below 0.1C (1C = rated A-h @ 10h discharge rate). This is 1.6A for
> your battery. Note that this only applies to a fully discharged
> battery.
>
> > Anybody know the chemistry behind that? I don't get
> >it. Lead peroxide is lead peroxide. When you drive the sulfate off
> >the lead atom and reattach an oxygen, what the hell difference does it
> >make how fast you do it (high Amps)?
>
> Hawker doesn't say specifically, but reading between the lines it
> looks like it could be a function of the small amount of tin that's
> added to the lead in the plates. This is done to increase service
> life for deep-discharge applications. Don't ask me about tin
> chemistry, though. I'm an electronics weenie.
>
> > The only thing I can think of is
> >that the battery itself has an internal resistance of 7 Ohms so the
> >higher the current, the higher the temperature of the battery itself.
> >And, as you all know, for every 10 degrees Centigrade, the chemical
> >reactivity rate coefficient doubles.
>
> Two things:
>
> The internal resistance is 7 milliohms.
>
> The primary aging mechanism for these batteries is corrosion of the
> positive electrode grid. For this particular mechanism, the reaction
> doubles every 8 °C, not 10° C as one would expect.
>
> > So, the rate constant will be
> >higher for the charge cycle on a hot battery. They say you can
> >completely recharge this baby in 2 hours if you use 10 Amps. I'm
> >thinking that it heats up...that's why!
>
> Yep, and that's not unique to this particular battery.
>
> Actually, Odyssey says the battery can be recharged in as little as 20
> minutes, assuming you have a charger that's beefy enough (3.5C= 56 A).
> At this rate, the internal temperature will rise about 20 °C and will
> peak about the time charging current starts decreasing (assumes the
> recommended voltage-limited constant-current charging).
>
> For a 2-hour charge, the expected temperature rise will be only about
> 10 °C.
>
> By the way, my information came from http://www.hepi.com/papers.htm.
> I pretty sure the Odyssey battery is an evolution of the Cyclon and
> Genesis batteries that are mentioned in the papers.
>
> Lastly...
>
> I did a lot of research on batteries and settled on the Odyssey when a
> replacement was needed for Long-EZ N271J. I put a PC-925 (27 A-h) in
> her back in February. So far, so good.
>
>
> Rob-
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Cherney e-mail: rcherney(at)comcast(dot)net

[Barnyard BOb --]

On 31 Aug 2003 00:16:41 -0700, wrote:

>Badwater may be a physicist but he's not too bright.
>
>I just received 2 Panasonic 20 AH RG batteries from Digikey. They
>were about $42 each. They are about 2.99 wide, 7.13" long, and 6.58" high,
>weigh 14.34 lbs each. Same chemistry and internal physical construction as the
>Odyssey.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What a meanie you are. 8-D

I was made aware of these Panasonics
some time ago through the RV list.....
but, who am I to bust anyone's bubble? <g>


Barnyard BOb -- bargain hunter

[David O]

Rob Cherney > wrote:

>I did a lot of research on batteries and settled on the Odyssey when a
>replacement was needed for Long-EZ N271J. I put a PC-925 (27 A-h) in
>her back in February. So far, so good.

I use a sealed lead-acid lawn tractor battery from the local
automobile parts store in my Long EZ -- about $25 as I recall. I swap
it out every 2 to 3 years. It cranks in 20 degree F temps and I've
never had one fail. I prefer this to buying an expensive battery and
hoping it will last 4+ years. Too heavy? Not for me. In fact I have
two 8 lb lead shot bags straddling the thing.

David O -- http://www.AirplaneZone.com

[Jerry Springer]

Barnyard BOb -- wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2003 00:16:41 -0700, wrote:
>
>
>>Badwater may be a physicist but he's not too bright.
>>
>>I just received 2 Panasonic 20 AH RG batteries from Digikey. They
>>were about $42 each. They are about 2.99 wide, 7.13" long, and 6.58" high,
>>weigh 14.34 lbs each. Same chemistry and internal physical construction as the
>>Odyssey.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> What a meanie you are. 8-D
>
> I was made aware of these Panasonics
> some time ago through the RV list.....
> but, who am I to bust anyone's bubble? <g>
>
>
> Barnyard BOb -- bargain hunter

I was aware of that battery also Bob but the other guy posting here does
not have a clue what he is talking about. They ARE NOT the same battery.
The Odyssey is a dry cell battery and the Panasonic is a lead acid
battery. For the purpose that BWB is using his the Panasonic would never
stand up to the charge/discharge he is doing. I did a lot of research
before buying the Odyssey battery. I Also looked at the LC-X1220 from
Digikey. Not bursting any bubbles here maybe if would do some more
research his bubble may burst. The guys using the Panasonic in their RVs
are finding that the cranking power gets weaker rapidly while the
Odyssey keeps right on ticken. I have the spec sheets for both batteries.
Jerry

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:17:54 -0400, David O >
wrote:

>
>Rob Cherney > wrote:
>
>>I did a lot of research on batteries and settled on the Odyssey when a
>>replacement was needed for Long-EZ N271J. I put a PC-925 (27 A-h) in
>>her back in February. So far, so good.
>
>I use a sealed lead-acid lawn tractor battery from the local
>automobile parts store in my Long EZ -- about $25 as I recall. I swap
>it out every 2 to 3 years. It cranks in 20 degree F temps and I've
>never had one fail. I prefer this to buying an expensive battery and
>hoping it will last 4+ years.

Trading lifetime for cost works when you have easy access to the battery to
swap it out (like Long-EZs I've seen) but it's a bear when it's hard to
access the battery. The gel-cell in my Fly Baby is mounted forward of the
instrument panel, flush with the cockpit floor, underneath a big box
containing all the avionics and electrical system paraphernalia (circuit
breakers, gauges, etc.). Getting to the box requires jackknifing as far as
the instrument panel will let me or almost standing on my head hanging over
the cockpit sidewalls.

The box, as it exists now, cannot be removed without physically dismounting
the transponder (hardwired with no connectors). I can, barely, move it far
enough to get the battery out from underneath.

Needless to say, this is NOT a process I like to do very often. I'll
gladly pay $25 or $50 more for a battery I only have to replace every four
years instead of every two.

Now, if only I could find one... :-)

Ron "Standing on my head next weekend" Wanttaja

[Rob Cherney]

On 31 Aug 2003 09:54:00 -0700, wrote:
>
>I've been using the Panasonics in parallel for 4 years, changing out one each
>year, and it's never faded. I cranked a 200 hp IO-360 12 times, 15 secons per
>crank (mags off) then stopped for 60 seconds to let the starter cool off, and
>they were going strong on try #12, no apparent slowing from the first crank.

This is contrary to the recommendation of Panasonic. See page 7 of:

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_PrecautionsForHandling.pdf

If you must connect two batteries in parallel, the electrical
properties should be balanced. Practically speaking, this means that
both batteries should be of the same age. Otherwise, the fresher
battery will be accepting most of the charge current. Over many
charge cycles, the imbalance will increase.


Rob-
------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Cherney e-mail: rcherney(at)comcast(dot)net

[Bob Olds]

Rob Cherney > wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:32:20 GMT, (Badwater
> Bill) wrote:
>
> >Another goofy thing about the Odyssey is that you can't recharge it
> >using a trickle charger. Less than 1.25 Amps won't put all the energy
> >back into the battery. You have to use a 10 Amp charger to get back
> >to full energy.
>
> From their data, it looks like the charge efficiency sharply decreases
> below 0.1C (1C = rated A-h @ 10h discharge rate). This is 1.6A for
> your battery. Note that this only applies to a fully discharged
> battery.
>
> > Anybody know the chemistry behind that? I don't get
> >it. Lead peroxide is lead peroxide. When you drive the sulfate off
> >the lead atom and reattach an oxygen, what the hell difference does it
> >make how fast you do it (high Amps)?
>
> Hawker doesn't say specifically, but reading between the lines it
> looks like it could be a function of the small amount of tin that's
> added to the lead in the plates. This is done to increase service
> life for deep-discharge applications. Don't ask me about tin
> chemistry, though. I'm an electronics weenie.
>
> > The only thing I can think of is
> >that the battery itself has an internal resistance of 7 Ohms so the
> >higher the current, the higher the temperature of the battery itself.
> >And, as you all know, for every 10 degrees Centigrade, the chemical
> >reactivity rate coefficient doubles.
>
> Two things:
>
> The internal resistance is 7 milliohms.
>
> The primary aging mechanism for these batteries is corrosion of the
> positive electrode grid. For this particular mechanism, the reaction
> doubles every 8 °C, not 10° C as one would expect.
>
> > So, the rate constant will be
> >higher for the charge cycle on a hot battery. They say you can
> >completely recharge this baby in 2 hours if you use 10 Amps. I'm
> >thinking that it heats up...that's why!
>
> Yep, and that's not unique to this particular battery.
>
> Actually, Odyssey says the battery can be recharged in as little as 20
> minutes, assuming you have a charger that's beefy enough (3.5C= 56 A).
> At this rate, the internal temperature will rise about 20 °C and will
> peak about the time charging current starts decreasing (assumes the
> recommended voltage-limited constant-current charging).
>
> For a 2-hour charge, the expected temperature rise will be only about
> 10 °C.
>
> By the way, my information came from http://www.hepi.com/papers.htm.
> I pretty sure the Odyssey battery is an evolution of the Cyclon and
> Genesis batteries that are mentioned in the papers.
>
> Lastly...
>
> I did a lot of research on batteries and settled on the Odyssey when a
> replacement was needed for Long-EZ N271J. I put a PC-925 (27 A-h) in
> her back in February. So far, so good.
>
>
> Rob-
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Cherney e-mail: rcherney(at)comcast(dot)net


************************************************** ******************************


I've used an Odyssey PC 925 in my RV-4 for 1 1/2 years and it sits on
its SIDE, in the same place the worthless Gel-Cel fit,and cranks with
seemingly no end. It survived me learning hot-starts last summer just
fine.
NO MORE Gel-Cels for me !! I put the one from the RV-4 in my antique
Farmall runway mower. Most expensive mower battery in the
neighborhood!

Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
Charleston,Arkansas



************************************************** *****************************

[Rob Cherney]

On 1 Sep 2003 10:39:06 -0700, wrote:

>I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT ANY ONE USE ONE OF THESE BATTERIES FOR ANY PURPOSE
>WHATSOEVER. IF YOU SEE ONE, RUN AWAY AND CONTACT THE PROPER AUTHORITIES. THEY
>WILL EXPLODE WITH A FORCE EQUAL TO 20,000 TONS OF TNT IF A FLY LANDS ON ONE.
>THEY WILL NOT STORE OR RELEASE ANY ELECTRICITY AT ALL. THEY WILL INVADE YOUR
>HOUSE AND KILL YOUR CHILDREN. THEY WILL TAKE OVER MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES AND
>TURN THEM INTO BASES FOR TERRORISTS. THE PANASONIC BATTERIES WERE RESPONSIBLE
>FOR THE ICE AGE, THE BLACK PLAGUE, WW1 AND 2 AND KILLED JFK. DO NOT TRUST THEM.
>IF YOU ARE THINKING OF USING ONE IN AN AIRPLANE, KILL YOUR FAMILY, YOUR
>NEIGHBORS AND YOURSELF NOW, BEFORE YOU BECOME ENSLAVED TO THE PANASONIC
>BATTERIES.

Advice taken.

Thanks.

Rob-
------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Cherney e-mail: rcherney(at)comcast(dot)net

[Eric Miller]

> wrote
> I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT ANY ONE USE ONE OF THESE BATTERIES FOR ANY PURPOSE
> WHATSOEVER. IF YOU SEE ONE, RUN AWAY AND CONTACT THE PROPER AUTHORITIES.
THEY
> WILL EXPLODE WITH A FORCE EQUAL TO 20,000 TONS OF TNT IF A FLY LANDS ON
ONE.
> THEY WILL NOT STORE OR RELEASE ANY ELECTRICITY AT ALL. THEY WILL INVADE
YOUR
> HOUSE AND KILL YOUR CHILDREN. THEY WILL TAKE OVER MIDDLE EASTERN
COUNTRIES AND
> TURN THEM INTO BASES FOR TERRORISTS. THE PANASONIC BATTERIES WERE
RESPONSIBLE
> FOR THE ICE AGE, THE BLACK PLAGUE, WW1 AND 2 AND KILLED JFK. DO NOT TRUST
THEM.
> IF YOU ARE THINKING OF USING ONE IN AN AIRPLANE, KILL YOUR FAMILY, YOUR
> NEIGHBORS AND YOURSELF NOW, BEFORE YOU BECOME ENSLAVED TO THE PANASONIC
> BATTERIES.

I knew it!

[David O]

Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

<snip>

>Now, if only I could find one... :-)

Agreed on all points, including the last. :)

David O -- http://www.AirplaneZone.com

[Barnyard BOb --]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:14:20 GMT, "Eric Miller" >
wrote:

> wrote
>> I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT ANY ONE USE ONE OF THESE BATTERIES FOR ANY PURPOSE
>> WHATSOEVER. IF YOU SEE ONE, RUN AWAY AND CONTACT THE PROPER AUTHORITIES.
>THEY
>> WILL EXPLODE WITH A FORCE EQUAL TO 20,000 TONS OF TNT IF A FLY LANDS ON
>ONE.
>> THEY WILL NOT STORE OR RELEASE ANY ELECTRICITY AT ALL. THEY WILL INVADE
>YOUR
>> HOUSE AND KILL YOUR CHILDREN. THEY WILL TAKE OVER MIDDLE EASTERN
>COUNTRIES AND
>> TURN THEM INTO BASES FOR TERRORISTS. THE PANASONIC BATTERIES WERE
>RESPONSIBLE
>> FOR THE ICE AGE, THE BLACK PLAGUE, WW1 AND 2 AND KILLED JFK. DO NOT TRUST
>THEM.
>> IF YOU ARE THINKING OF USING ONE IN AN AIRPLANE, KILL YOUR FAMILY, YOUR
>> NEIGHBORS AND YOURSELF NOW, BEFORE YOU BECOME ENSLAVED TO THE PANASONIC
>> BATTERIES.
>
>I knew it!
+++++++++++++++++++++

I didn't.

[Paul Lee]

Barnyard BOb -- > wrote in message >...
>.... A 16 amp-hour
> Odyssey is going to empty out pretty quick unless one
> is willing to start the blades rotating by hand. ....

I am using the PC680 Odyssey battery for starting
a 10.5/1, 220HP Franklin engine. It has no trouble
cranking the thing. True, at 225amps cranking the
battery won't last more than a few minutes. But if
the thing does not start in the first 5-10 seconds,
there is something else wrong.

----------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000

[Badwater Bill]

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:24:41 GMT, Jerry Springer
> wrote:

>Ouch, :-( Sunn battery has them for $74.00+ $5.00 shipping. That was in
>my first message about the battery. I hope it works for you Bill, really
>works great in my RV. Better than any Gell cell, or RG battery I have
>ever tried before.
>http://sunnbattery.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=553828%7C1209500&PRID=1292858
>Jerry


Hell, that was after calling all the retailers on the page at the
Odysey website. It was $126 plus tax. Most wanted nearly $140.
Something is wrong somewhere.

Bill

[Badwater Bill]

On 3 Sep 2003 14:12:04 -0700, (Paul Lee) wrote:

>Barnyard BOb -- > wrote in message >...
>>.... A 16 amp-hour
>> Odyssey is going to empty out pretty quick unless one
>> is willing to start the blades rotating by hand. ....
>
>I am using the PC680 Odyssey battery for starting
>a 10.5/1, 220HP Franklin engine. It has no trouble
>cranking the thing. True, at 225amps cranking the
>battery won't last more than a few minutes. But if
>the thing does not start in the first 5-10 seconds,
>there is something else wrong.

That's an interesting application. The 680 is only 15 pounds and it's
small in volume, that's why I like it. I got a hold of a couple 35
Amp-hr Gel Cell batteries today from a buddy (brand new out of the box
and he just gave them to me since his application disappeared). I'm
going to make an APU out of them and use them to hook up in parallel
during my starts. That way I'll have plenty for the flying day.

My real problem here, and I haven't talked about it, is that my blades
aren't tracked properly. I've painted one tip red and one black. You
can't track them without flying the damn thing. In flight, you look
at the tips and see what blade is above the other. Then you land and
reduce AOA on the high blade, spool up again and go for another try.
It's an empirical thing until you get it dialed in. The problem with
a Walmart motorcycle battery is that I get about three starts from it
with a 30 minute charging time between each start and the battery is
toast since it deep cycles to full discharge. That battery is simply
not designed for what I need to do.

Another problem is that I have to crank the engine after I start the
main rotor blades and get them into autorotation facing into the wind.
If there is no wind, I have to taxi to make relative wind and I have
to start the Rotax 582 to do that. I can't do that without a Mambo
battery.

BWB

[Badwater Bill]

>
>************************************************** ******************************
>
>
>I've used an Odyssey PC 925 in my RV-4 for 1 1/2 years and it sits on
>its SIDE, in the same place the worthless Gel-Cel fit,and cranks with
>seemingly no end. It survived me learning hot-starts last summer just
>fine.
>NO MORE Gel-Cels for me !! I put the one from the RV-4 in my antique
>Farmall runway mower. Most expensive mower battery in the
>neighborhood!
>
>Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
>Charleston,Arkansas
>
>
>
>************************************************** *****************************

Alright. I agree. There is nothing like a fine quality piece of
equipment that you can rely upon.

I had a 35 Amp-hr Gel-cell in my RV-6. It was expensive, it weighed a
lot and it crapped out on me when it got cold. I have no idea why Van
recommends it. I still have access to that airplane and I flew it
this last weekend. I was in Utah this morning at 37 degrees F and
worried as hell about it cranking. But, after I put the Lightspeed
ignition system in that thing and went to a mult-vis oil for the cold,
it cranks fine.

An old timer told me how to start that thing about three years ago.
His name is Paul Muskat and he's an old examiner who retired many
years ago, plus he's an A & P. He passed this on to me and I swear to
God it's the answer to the starting problems I had on the RV-6. In
fact I'm not so sure I needed to buy and instal that Lightspeed
ignition after I changed the way I started--due to Paul. Here's what
he said:

Prime this thing with about 4 pumps of the prime plunger. Of course
wait until it stops wheezing each time so you know you are getting a
good shot of fuel.

MAKE SURE YOUR MAG SWITCHES ARE OFF.

Go around and pull that O-320 through all four cylinders

Then get in and crank it.

I did that this morning and it hit on the first cylinder. Of course
Claus's plasma ignition system is about like starting an electric
motor. If you do the ABOVE, then crack the throttle and hit the
starter, with the retardation and advancement of timing that the
Lightspeed ignition gives you, the prop just starts turning, you drop
out the starter and it continues to turn like an electric motor. I've
never seen anything like it in a Lycoming.

What a NOVEL idea, change the timing as needed just like you do in a
car. How innovative. How modern. Christ, sometimes I think we are
in the stone age with Lycoming and Continental. They should have done
this years ago. It works great guys. Hell, 4 D-Cell batteries would
start that RV-6 now.

BWB

[Badwater Bill]

>
>I was aware of that battery also Bob but the other guy posting here does
>not have a clue what he is talking about. They ARE NOT the same battery.
>The Odyssey is a dry cell battery and the Panasonic is a lead acid
>battery. For the purpose that BWB is using his the Panasonic would never
>stand up to the charge/discharge he is doing. I did a lot of research
>before buying the Odyssey battery. I Also looked at the LC-X1220 from
>Digikey. Not bursting any bubbles here maybe if would do some more
>research his bubble may burst. The guys using the Panasonic in their RVs
>are finding that the cranking power gets weaker rapidly while the
>Odyssey keeps right on ticken. I have the spec sheets for both batteries.
>Jerry


What Odysey do you use in your RV-6 Jerry? Which one?

Bill

[Jerry Springer]

Badwater Bill wrote:
>>I was aware of that battery also Bob but the other guy posting here does
>>not have a clue what he is talking about. They ARE NOT the same battery.
>>The Odyssey is a dry cell battery and the Panasonic is a lead acid
>>battery. For the purpose that BWB is using his the Panasonic would never
>>stand up to the charge/discharge he is doing. I did a lot of research
>>before buying the Odyssey battery. I Also looked at the LC-X1220 from
>>Digikey. Not bursting any bubbles here maybe if would do some more
>>research his bubble may burst. The guys using the Panasonic in their RVs
>>are finding that the cranking power gets weaker rapidly while the
>>Odyssey keeps right on ticken. I have the spec sheets for both batteries.
>>Jerry
>
>
>
> What Odysey do you use in your RV-6 Jerry? Which one?
>
> Bill

Odyssey 680

Jerry

[Barnyard BOb --]

>An old timer told me how to start that thing about three years ago.
>His name is Paul Muskat and he's an old examiner who retired many
>years ago, plus he's an A & P. He passed this on to me and I swear to
>God it's the answer to the starting problems I had on the RV-6. In
>fact I'm not so sure I needed to buy and instal that Lightspeed
>ignition after I changed the way I started--due to Paul. Here's what
>he said:

Lightspeed ignition, NOT required, *IF* you follow the steps
that were recommended to you below.
>
>Prime this thing with about 4 pumps of the prime plunger. Of course
>wait until it stops wheezing each time so you know you are getting a
>good shot of fuel.
>
>MAKE SURE YOUR MAG SWITCHES ARE OFF.

Yep - absolutely key part of the process.

>Go around and pull that O-320 through all four cylinders

Not necessary, *IF* you can crank with... MAGS OFF.

>Then get in and crank it.
>
>I did that this morning and it hit on the first cylinder.

>BWB

Yep.
What was happening...
you were *FROSTING* the sparkplugs.

Once ICED...
Ya either wait for the ice to melt or remove it.

If you don't believe it....
pull a plug when the engine absolutely won't start.
Check for ICE shorting across the electrodes!
It will be there in mass quantities !!!!!!

I learned this the hard way, as a 16 year old teenager.
I had a car that would not start below 32 degrees.
Ditto for a Cessna 175.
Above 32, both would always start on the first lick.

Below 32 degrees...
Both engines required FUEL to be in the cylinders BEFORE
turning on the ignition or the hot spark would cause ICE
to form across the sparkplug electrodes.

In SOME, but not all engines...
The hot spark causes the cold moist air WITHOUT FUEL
in the cylinder to CONDENSE across the electrodes as
ice... if it's 32 or colder. Once shorted in this manner,
your screwed until it warms up or you remove the ice.

Trust me on this one. <g>


Barnyard BOb -- believe it or not

[Russell Kent]

Badwater Bill wrote:

> That's an interesting application. The 680 is only 15 pounds and it's
> small in volume, that's why I like it. I got a hold of a couple 35
> Amp-hr Gel Cell batteries today from a buddy (brand new out of the box
> and he just gave them to me since his application disappeared). I'm
> going to make an APU out of them and use them to hook up in parallel
> during my starts. That way I'll have plenty for the flying day.
>
> My real problem here, and I haven't talked about it, is that my blades
> aren't tracked properly. I've painted one tip red and one black. You
> can't track them without flying the damn thing. In flight, you look
> at the tips and see what blade is above the other. Then you land and
> reduce AOA on the high blade, spool up again and go for another try.
> It's an empirical thing until you get it dialed in. The problem with
> a Walmart motorcycle battery is that I get about three starts from it
> with a 30 minute charging time between each start and the battery is
> toast since it deep cycles to full discharge. That battery is simply
> not designed for what I need to do.

Ah, now things are clearer. Why not setup your electrical system so that you carry one gel cell battery (no
Odessey at this point) in a quick-change manner? Leave the other gel cells (how many did you get from your
friend?) on the ground on a fast charger. On each landing, swap the gel cell with the most charged one on
the ground. When you've finally got the blade tracking problem solved, go back and install the Odessy 680
as your permanent lightweight battery.

Russell Kent

[Badwater Bill]

>
>Ah, now things are clearer. Why not setup your electrical system so that you carry one gel cell battery (no
>Odessey at this point) in a quick-change manner? Leave the other gel cells (how many did you get from your
>friend?) on the ground on a fast charger. On each landing, swap the gel cell with the most charged one on
>the ground. When you've finally got the blade tracking problem solved, go back and install the Odessy 680
>as your permanent lightweight battery.
>
>Russell Kent


I don't need to switch out a gel cell each time. I can do exactly
what you indicate here by simply hooking up to the APU each time and
leaving it on the fast charger. Then I don't have to carry the weight
along with my big gut each time.

BWB

[Model Flyer]

> wrote in message ...
> In article >, Barnyard
BOb -- says...
> >but, who am I to bust anyone's bubble? <g>
>
> I've got a whole pre-rotator solution that costs less than $50,
weighs about 3
> pounds, spins up the blades 3 times on a charge, easily recharges
in flight and
> lets you keep an extra battery in your flight suit pocket.
>

Just why you would want to keep you hands in your pockets, beats
me.:-)
--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place



> If Bill apologizes to Sydney, I might tell him what it is.
>

[Badwater Bill]

>>
>> What Odysey do you use in your RV-6 Jerry? Which one?
>>
>> Bill
>
>Odyssey 680
>
>Jerry

I'll be damned. That little baby does it eh? Amazing.

Bill

[Badwater Bill]

On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 03:21:18 -0500, Barnyard BOb -- >
wrote:

>
>
>>An old timer told me how to start that thing about three years ago.
>>His name is Paul Muskat and he's an old examiner who retired many
>>years ago, plus he's an A & P. He passed this on to me and I swear to
>>God it's the answer to the starting problems I had on the RV-6. In
>>fact I'm not so sure I needed to buy and instal that Lightspeed
>>ignition after I changed the way I started--due to Paul. Here's what
>>he said:
>
>Lightspeed ignition, NOT required, *IF* you follow the steps
>that were recommended to you below.

I know that now and agree. I jumped the gun on that one. I should
have known how to start that engine without spending a grand on that
fancy ignition. But I didn't.


>Yep.
>What was happening...
>you were *FROSTING* the sparkplugs.
>
>Once ICED...
>Ya either wait for the ice to melt or remove it.
>
>If you don't believe it....
>pull a plug when the engine absolutely won't start.
>Check for ICE shorting across the electrodes!
>It will be there in mass quantities !!!!!!

Interesting. I don't quite see the physics of that. Must have
something to do with the adiabatic expansion of air in the cylinder
causing the temp to drop way down.

>
>I learned this the hard way, as a 16 year old teenager.
>I had a car that would not start below 32 degrees.
>Ditto for a Cessna 175.
>Above 32, both would always start on the first lick.
>
>Below 32 degrees...
>Both engines required FUEL to be in the cylinders BEFORE
>turning on the ignition or the hot spark would cause ICE
>to form across the sparkplug electrodes.

What's the difference between pulling it through by hand or cranking
it? The same thing is happening except that you don't get a spark?

>
>In SOME, but not all engines...
>The hot spark causes the cold moist air WITHOUT FUEL
>in the cylinder to CONDENSE across the electrodes as
>ice... if it's 32 or colder.

Why? How?

>Once shorted in this manner,
>your screwed until it warms up or you remove the ice.
>
>Trust me on this one. <g>

Nature is amazing in it's own right. Being a physicist I know that
the truth is much stranger than fiction, but I don't see this one for
some reason. I'm not saying I don't believe it. I'm just saying I
can't see the mechanism.

Bill
>
>
>Barnyard BOb -- believe it or not
>
>

[Barnyard BOb --]

>>> What Odysey do you use in your RV-6 Jerry? Which one?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>>Odyssey 680
>>
>>Jerry
>
>I'll be damned. That little baby does it eh? Amazing.
>
>Bill
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sales tax on your battery could
just about pay for half of mine.

My 0-320 has been cranking reliably with
an $18 Wal-Mart garden tractor battery...
down to 20 degrees in western Missouri.

Hope I'm NOT damned.


Barnyard BOb --

[Eric Miller]

"Barnyard BOb --" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sales tax on your battery could
> just about pay for half of mine.
>
> My 0-320 has been cranking reliably with
> an $18 Wal-Mart garden tractor battery...
> down to 20 degrees in western Missouri.
>
> Hope I'm NOT damned.

You weren't... until you posted.
Now you've gotten Fate's attention... and she's a spiteful bitch! :p

Eric

[Barnyard BOb --]

m...
>>
>> Sales tax on your battery could
>> just about pay for half of mine.
>>
>> My 0-320 has been cranking reliably with
>> an $18 Wal-Mart garden tractor battery...
>> down to 20 degrees in western Missouri.
>>
>> Hope I'm NOT damned.
>
>You weren't... until you posted.
>Now you've gotten Fate's attention... and she's a spiteful bitch! :p
>
>Eric
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Can't I be damned by a God that doesn't exist?



Barnyard BOb --

[Eric Miller]

"Barnyard BOb --" > wrote
> >
> >You weren't... until you posted.
> >Now you've gotten Fate's attention... and she's a spiteful bitch! :p
> >
> >Eric
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Can't I be damned by a God that doesn't exist?
>
> Barnyard BOb --

Who's to say you're not? So many ways to be the universe's punchline.
Fortunately, there's no need to decide which to go with, choose 'em all! :-)

Eric "speaking from experience"

[David O]

Barnyard BOb -- > wrote:

>>>In SOME, but not all engines...
>>>The hot spark causes the cold moist air WITHOUT FUEL
>>>in the cylinder to CONDENSE across the electrodes as
>>>ice... if it's 32 or colder.
>>
>>Why? How?
>
>>Bill
>
>Decades ago, when I first grabbed an ice cold mug out of the
>refrigerator for a brewski....a coat of ice formed almost instantly.
>Ambient heat and humidity at work on the frozen mug, right?
>
>Since then, I have repeated the experiment many times.
>Might work with Chardonnay, too. Check it out. <g>
>
>Apparently, the same phenomena occurs inside some
>engines when the heat of an intense spark meets the
>freezing cold spark plug and moisture rich air in the cylinder.
>
>Make sense?
>If so, hoist one fer me.
>
>If not....
>hoist one fer me.
>
>
>Unka' BOb --


Bob, your theory is all wet (frosted?). It isn't the spark + moist
air that causes a frosted plug. Rather, it is simply the water vapor
in the cylinder condensing on the subfreezing plug -- the spark plays
no direct role in the process. The water vapor in the cylinder can
come from air being pumped through the cylinder before the engine
fires (see 1) or, more commonly, from the combination of ambient water
vapor and water vapor liberated through combustion in a failed start
(see 2). Although the spark does play a role in the latter case, it
is a decidedly indirect one. :)

As for your frosty mug, when frost forms on a subfreezing mug it is
because the dew point of the ambient air is above the temperature of
the mug. When the ambient air meets the mug, the air is cooled below
its dew point and water vapor condenses out and freezes on the mug.
The only role your "ambient heat" plays in the process is enabling an
ambient dew point that is higher than the temperature of the mug. Of
course, the dew point of the ambient air does not necessarily have to
be higher than the temperature of the subfreezing mug, but often is.

David O -- http://www.AirplaneZone.com

1: For this case, the dew point of the air must be above the
temperature of the subfreezing plug for frost to form.

2: There is a lot of H2O liberated in the combustion of avgas, chiefly
through the reaction 2 C8H18 + 25 02 = 16 CO2 + 18 H2O.

[Barnyard BOb --]

>Bob, your theory is all wet (frosted?). It isn't the spark + moist
>air that causes a frosted plug. Rather, it is simply the water vapor
>in the cylinder condensing on the subfreezing plug -- the spark plays
>no direct role in the process.

Not true of my experiences.

Ice MASSIVESLY collects BETWEEN the electrodes...
*NOT* EVENLY distributed over the general surfaces of
the 8 or 16 spark plugs.

Have you ever observed what I'm referring to?

Bear in mind, this phenomena does not occur until
SPARK is introduced to the environment.

>The water vapor in the cylinder can
>come from air being pumped through the cylinder before the engine
>fires (see 1) or, more commonly, from the combination of ambient water
>vapor and water vapor liberated through combustion in a failed start
>(see 2). Although the spark does play a role in the latter case, it
>is a decidedly indirect one. :)
>
>David O --

Are you saying the failed start causes the ice,
not the other way around?

Hmmmm.
If so, most interesting......
Even though my experience has demonstrated otherwise,
time and time again.


Barnyard BOb--

[Barnyard BOb --]

>I'm saying that most failed engine starts from iced-over plugs occur
>after a few combustion cycles due to the water vapor liberated through
>combustion being combined with an already high ambient relative
>humidity. I'm saying that the spark plays no role in concentrating
>the ice between the plug's electrodes. To be convinced of such a
>spark induced ice concentrating phenomena, I would have to see either
>an authoritative paper detailing the physical mechanism involved or a
>controlled experiment with such results. You may be correct, Bob, but
>the scientist and engineer in me needs more before I buy it. If I'm
>proved wrong, I'll hoist a frosted mug to you. :)
>
>David O -- http://www.AirplaneZone.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Which came first...
the chicken or the egg?

Matters not when you and your spark plugs are frostbit
on some lonely mountain top and your engine won't start....
and your battery is running down. Better have a plug
wrench or know how to prevent spark plug frosting
in the first place. Scientific explanations be damned. ;)


Barnyard BOb --