Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale? [Archive]

Charlie Papa

October 29th 07, 12:58 AM

Just a guess, but I suspect the new Light Sport Aircraft category may
be responsible. It is my understanding that a Stemme has been the
refuge of power pilots who have lost their medical. They offer a very
respectable climb, cruise and range, and many are fitted out like a
power aircraft. The LSA offers an alternative without the hassle of
those long wings...

But that's only speculation ;-)

On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR > wrote:
> There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
>
> Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1
> for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm
>
> Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not
> trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on
> the S10-VT motorglider.
>
> Thx in advance.
>
> VARR
>
> P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the
> Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the
> simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/
> sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme
> aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited
> to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult
> Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup."

[email protected]

October 29th 07, 06:46 AM

Mal[_4_]

October 29th 07, 12:14 PM

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2002/A02_9_11.pdf

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/tribute-to-pilot-killed-with-son-4/2006/08/28/1156617259628.html

I wont fly in one.

Dan[_6_]

October 29th 07, 03:03 PM

On Oct 27, 9:23 pm, VARR > wrote:
> There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
>
> Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1
> for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm
>
> Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not
> trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on

For many years I've been on a quest to own a motorglider. It has been
a long time dream of mine to enhance my soaring with the flexibility
only a motorglider offers. I have been watching and learning as much
as I can about all motorgliders (self launchers too) in general. When
I first saw the Stemme in 1992 at Oshkosh (its USA debut) I was very
impressed and I've followed the development of it closely. It's an
awesome machine. No doubt, the Stemme is by far the most complicated
sailplane ever. Also note that it does things no other sailplane has
ever done before. We have a saying in the Aerospace world....."if it
was easy it would have been done before".

I too tried to join the Stemme group, but like you I'm not an owner so
I too was not allowed to join. I agree with you that this is very
frustrating if you are trying to learn more about the Stemme. However
I also understand why the group took this course of action. From what
I've learned they felt that by keeping it only for owners they could
deal with the issues (AD's etc...) more frankly, openly and honestly
between themselves and not become distracted by outside commenter's
and sometimes trolls. This was a tough decision for the group but from
an engineering viewpoint probably the best way to get through what I
call teething problems. I've been around airplanes and gliders my
entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31
years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set
of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own. Rumor
mongering usually leads to nothing productive. I gave up trying to
talk to non-owners who all had an opinion but really were not
knowledgeable and I put them into the category of just generating more
gossip and rumor mongering.

So I too was frustrated in truly trying to learn more about the
Stemme. What I eventually did was talk to owners of Stemme's. Some
were far more open and knowledgeable than others. In general here are
some of what I've learned and some of my observations.

I've learned much about each problem, and AD and they all seem to make
logical sense for why the issue arose and the associated fix. Another
issue I feel is equally important is the preventative maintenance.
With such a complicated aircraft and so many newly developed systems
many of the needed preventative measures were not known or
understood. Time in the fleet has now started to address this. As
far as I can tell Stemme and the owners group have dealt with each
problem. And as far as I know each AD has fixed the problem and it
has not been a recurring problem after the AD was complied with. I
am of the belief that properly maintained and with an understanding
eye one could truly enjoy the unique capabilities only offered by the
Stemme.

The Stemme is certainly on my "short list" of aircraft I'd like to
own.

Dan Rihn
Rihn Aircraft Corp.

PS- Some of my own personal observations on all motorgliders in
general-
One of my nagging concerns with all motorgliders has been the use of
commercial off the shelf (COTS) components, in other words automotive
parts or motorcylcle parts. This has become more and more prevalent
in the aircraft industry and sometimes it works great and sometimes
not so well. Personally I prefer the use of as much more typical (at
least in the USA) AN fittings, certified hoses, TSO'd oil coolers,
wheels tires brakes etc... The rigorous testing these parts have had to
undergo is worth every penny and maybe your life. I also prefer
reliance on as much tried and true system design standards. I
understand that in many cases there are not "certified" parts that can
be used but in areas where they can I wish they would be used as much
as possible. On several motorgliders I've looked into I've seen many
non-standard practices used, I certainly don't like plastic hose
fittings on fuel and oil lines. Obviously several motorgliders also
use non certified engines (some 2-stroke). I'm also not keen on this,
so it's important to look at the fleet reliability. Some of the VW
conversions have been made to work well. But again I prefer as much
typical certified aircraft sub system components as possible.

> the S10-VT motorglider.
>
> Thx in advance.
>
> VARR
>
> P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the
> Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the
> simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/
> sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme
> aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited
> to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult
> Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup."

pigro

October 30th 07, 12:00 AM

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR > wrote:

>Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not
>trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on
>the S10-VT motorglider.

I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years, tgether with
4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this opportunity.

I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy to Morocco and
back.
It was an S10-v (not "T"). Excellent performance in cruise, not ideal
takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full tanks, I was way
beyond MTOW.
Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring safaris,
quite good for serious XC, especially if the center of gravity had
been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's quite awkward in
thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...)

I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions.
TE probe never worked well.
Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory: better
revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again.

Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller TBO almost
doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO had been
extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30%

Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier on a long runway.
The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher than they look.
But you do need a smooth surface.

Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on grass: it's quite
easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact.

The VT has much better takeoff performance.

I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the owner has finally
sold it.

Aldo Cernezzi
dg600M

Forest Baskett

October 30th 07, 03:02 AM

Stemme motorgliders are complicated, without a doubt,
but you can do some amazing things with them. Take
a look at some of the trips that Marty Hellman has
documented on his web site, http://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soarin
g/photos.html. If you are interested a resource you
should consider is Glider Bob in Telluride. He gives
rides, instructs and acts as a sales agent for many
sellers. I think he has been involved with Stemmes
since they first came to the US. Unlike Marty and
Glider Bob I am a relatively new owner but I am happy
to try to answer any questions.

Forest

At 00:06 30 October 2007, Pigro wrote:
>On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR wrote:
>
>
>>Are these people already upgrading to the Antares?
>> ;-) I'm not
>>trolling, but rather am looking for actual information
>>and opinions on
>>the S10-VT motorglider.
>
>I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years,
>tgether with
>4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this
>opportunity.
>
>I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy
>to Morocco and
>back.
>It was an S10-v (not 'T'). Excellent performance in
>cruise, not ideal
>takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full
>tanks, I was way
>beyond MTOW.
>Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring
>safaris,
>quite good for serious XC, especially if the center
>of gravity had
>been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's
>quite awkward in
>thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...)
>
>I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions.
>TE probe never worked well.
>Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory:
>better
>revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again.
>
>Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller
>TBO almost
>doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO
>had been
>extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30%
>
>Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier
>on a long runway.
>The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher
>than they look.
>But you do need a smooth surface.
>
>Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on
>grass: it's quite
>easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact.
>
>The VT has much better takeoff performance.
>
>I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the
>owner has finally
>sold it.
>
>Aldo Cernezzi
>dg600M
>

[email protected]

October 30th 07, 11:23 AM

I recall one occasion where person bought new Stemme from the factory.
On it's arrival to USA from Germany, it had 3 new AD's already. It is
frustrating to buy a new plane and start working the AD's before you
can fly.

On motorgliders generally. I can't understand why a piece of crap
engine installed into glider costs more than a new car. Some things
are totally wrong. Can't the engineers build a reliable engine on a
reasonable price? Cost of motorglider is enourmous now'a'days. Way too
much.

This is the only sport where a sport equipment costs ~$100000 and up
and when you are world champion, you get absolutely nothing. Maybe a
trophy, which you need to ship back home and pay extra fees to
airlines.

Costs are a big dilemma and that is the biggest reason why soaring is
declining...

PS

On 29 loka, 17:03, Dan > wrote:
> On Oct 27, 9:23 pm, VARR > wrote:
>
> > There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
>
> > Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1
> > for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm
>
> > Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not
> > trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on
>
> For many years I've been on a quest to own a motorglider. It has been
> a long time dream of mine to enhance my soaring with the flexibility
> only a motorglider offers. I have been watching and learning as much
> as I can about all motorgliders (self launchers too) in general. When
> I first saw the Stemme in 1992 at Oshkosh (its USA debut) I was very
> impressed and I've followed the development of it closely. It's an
> awesome machine. No doubt, the Stemme is by far the most complicated
> sailplane ever. Also note that it does things no other sailplane has
> ever done before. We have a saying in the Aerospace world....."if it
> was easy it would have been done before".
>
> I too tried to join the Stemme group, but like you I'm not an owner so
> I too was not allowed to join. I agree with you that this is very
> frustrating if you are trying to learn more about the Stemme. However
> I also understand why the group took this course of action. From what
> I've learned they felt that by keeping it only for owners they could
> deal with the issues (AD's etc...) more frankly, openly and honestly
> between themselves and not become distracted by outside commenter's
> and sometimes trolls. This was a tough decision for the group but from
> an engineering viewpoint probably the best way to get through what I
> call teething problems. I've been around airplanes and gliders my
> entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31
> years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set
> of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own. Rumor
> mongering usually leads to nothing productive. I gave up trying to
> talk to non-owners who all had an opinion but really were not
> knowledgeable and I put them into the category of just generating more
> gossip and rumor mongering.
>
> So I too was frustrated in truly trying to learn more about the
> Stemme. What I eventually did was talk to owners of Stemme's. Some
> were far more open and knowledgeable than others. In general here are
> some of what I've learned and some of my observations.
>
> I've learned much about each problem, and AD and they all seem to make
> logical sense for why the issue arose and the associated fix. Another
> issue I feel is equally important is the preventative maintenance.
> With such a complicated aircraft and so many newly developed systems
> many of the needed preventative measures were not known or
> understood. Time in the fleet has now started to address this. As
> far as I can tell Stemme and the owners group have dealt with each
> problem. And as far as I know each AD has fixed the problem and it
> has not been a recurring problem after the AD was complied with. I
> am of the belief that properly maintained and with an understanding
> eye one could truly enjoy the unique capabilities only offered by the
> Stemme.
>
> The Stemme is certainly on my "short list" of aircraft I'd like to
> own.
>
> Dan Rihn
> Rihn Aircraft Corp.
>
> PS- Some of my own personal observations on all motorgliders in
> general-
> One of my nagging concerns with all motorgliders has been the use of
> commercial off the shelf (COTS) components, in other words automotive
> parts or motorcylcle parts. This has become more and more prevalent
> in the aircraft industry and sometimes it works great and sometimes
> not so well. Personally I prefer the use of as much more typical (at
> least in the USA) AN fittings, certified hoses, TSO'd oil coolers,
> wheels tires brakes etc... The rigorous testing these parts have had to
> undergo is worth every penny and maybe your life. I also prefer
> reliance on as much tried and true system design standards. I
> understand that in many cases there are not "certified" parts that can
> be used but in areas where they can I wish they would be used as much
> as possible. On several motorgliders I've looked into I've seen many
> non-standard practices used, I certainly don't like plastic hose
> fittings on fuel and oil lines. Obviously several motorgliders also
> use non certified engines (some 2-stroke). I'm also not keen on this,
> so it's important to look at the fleet reliability. Some of the VW
> conversions have been made to work well. But again I prefer as much
> typical certified aircraft sub system components as possible.
>
> > the S10-VT motorglider.
>
> > Thx in advance.
>
> > VARR
>
> > P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the
> > Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the
> > simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/
> > sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme
> > aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited
> > to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult
> > Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup."

Scott[_1_]

October 30th 07, 11:32 AM

They don't use Franklin engines, do they? ;) Sorry...couldn't resist ;)

Scott

Dan wrote:
I've been around airplanes and gliders my
> entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31
> years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set
> of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own.

Bert Willing[_2_]

October 30th 07, 12:34 PM

If you need a certified engine, you are going to amortize the cost of
certification over total number built. Given the incredibly large number of
motorglider engines of any given type (100? 200? 500?), that cost
contribution is way more than the cost of the metal.

Which certainly doesn't mean that the certification of the engine would
prevent is from quitting on you during takeoff...

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> On motorgliders generally. I can't understand why a piece of crap
> engine installed into glider costs more than a new car. Some things
> are totally wrong. Can't the engineers build a reliable engine on a
> reasonable price? Cost of motorglider is enourmous now'a'days. Way too
> much.

[email protected]

October 30th 07, 11:16 PM

On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR > wrote:
> There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
> Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)

The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
It is complicated to do all these things...

The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
Not for touring under power, though more than enough
capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.

So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
for a different kind of flying !

Best Regards, Dave "YO"

Dan[_6_]

October 31st 07, 04:50 AM

On Oct 30, 4:16 pm, wrote:
> On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR > wrote:
>
> > There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
> > Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)
>
> The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
> distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
> a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
> It is complicated to do all these things...
>
> The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
> It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
> Not for touring under power, though more than enough
> capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
> below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
> by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
> is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
> is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.
>
> So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
> for a different kind of flying !
>
> Best Regards, Dave "YO"
Dave,
Everyone's requirements for a motorglider are different. My main
goal is to eliminate the long drive time to the gliderports. This is
a fact of life in southern California especially if you live in the
beach areas. I have a hangar/shop at an airport so that is no
problem, in my case it is what I desire.
My requirements for the "perfect motorglider" are to operate out of a
small narrow airport in the Los Angeles basin very close to LAX. I
need to taxi and maybe even taxi with the wings folded. I need to
taxi around many obstacles just as easily as a Cessna. I want to fly
50 miles or more to areas where I can soar. I feel these two
requirements can not be filled with self launchers. I'm sure the
Antares is a wonderful machine but I put the Antares into the category
of being a self launcher, not a motorglider. I've never seen an
Antares but when I've considered a self launcher I have gravitated
towards the ASH-26E, mostly because I've seen them and flown with
them.
I've flown the Stemme and the Ximango and liked them both. They both
fit the physical taxi and ground maneuvering requirements I desire.
Having owned an ASW-20 for several years I don't think I would be
happy with lower performance so the Stemme is more appealing from that
point of view. When I flew the Stemme we flew both ridge and thermals
found it handled very well. It truly is an awesome machine.
The Carat is also high on my list. I'm a little concerned it may be a
little tight to taxi around my airport. The span will just fit
(tight) but the new FAA mandated signage at taxi ways may pose a
problem. I haven't flown one but I've seen and flown with a few,
they impress me.
A nice feature I do like about a self launcher and the Carat is the
ability to trailer as an option. This would allow more flexibility
with regards to weather. The ability to trailer would minimize the
problems we have with VFR flight during the "June Gloom" marine
stratus we deal with in the summer here in SoCal.
Maybe if the next version of Antares had a conventional landing gear
and folding wing tips it would be higher on my list!

Dan Rihn
ASW-20 WO

Bruce

October 31st 07, 05:40 AM

Hi Dan

Only ~1:40 but the Pipistrel Taurus would also be a good option given the
requirements you set.

Bruce

Dan wrote:
> On Oct 30, 4:16 pm, wrote:
>> On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR > wrote:
>>
>>> There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
>>> Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)
>> The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
>> distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
>> a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
>> It is complicated to do all these things...
>>
>> The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
>> It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
>> Not for touring under power, though more than enough
>> capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
>> below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
>> by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
>> is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
>> is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.
>>
>> So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
>> for a different kind of flying !
>>
>> Best Regards, Dave "YO"
> Dave,
> Everyone's requirements for a motorglider are different. My main
> goal is to eliminate the long drive time to the gliderports. This is
> a fact of life in southern California especially if you live in the
> beach areas. I have a hangar/shop at an airport so that is no
> problem, in my case it is what I desire.
> My requirements for the "perfect motorglider" are to operate out of a
> small narrow airport in the Los Angeles basin very close to LAX. I
> need to taxi and maybe even taxi with the wings folded. I need to
> taxi around many obstacles just as easily as a Cessna. I want to fly
> 50 miles or more to areas where I can soar. I feel these two
> requirements can not be filled with self launchers. I'm sure the
> Antares is a wonderful machine but I put the Antares into the category
> of being a self launcher, not a motorglider. I've never seen an
> Antares but when I've considered a self launcher I have gravitated
> towards the ASH-26E, mostly because I've seen them and flown with
> them.
> I've flown the Stemme and the Ximango and liked them both. They both
> fit the physical taxi and ground maneuvering requirements I desire.
> Having owned an ASW-20 for several years I don't think I would be
> happy with lower performance so the Stemme is more appealing from that
> point of view. When I flew the Stemme we flew both ridge and thermals
> found it handled very well. It truly is an awesome machine.
> The Carat is also high on my list. I'm a little concerned it may be a
> little tight to taxi around my airport. The span will just fit
> (tight) but the new FAA mandated signage at taxi ways may pose a
> problem. I haven't flown one but I've seen and flown with a few,
> they impress me.
> A nice feature I do like about a self launcher and the Carat is the
> ability to trailer as an option. This would allow more flexibility
> with regards to weather. The ability to trailer would minimize the
> problems we have with VFR flight during the "June Gloom" marine
> stratus we deal with in the summer here in SoCal.
> Maybe if the next version of Antares had a conventional landing gear
> and folding wing tips it would be higher on my list!
>
> Dan Rihn
> ASW-20 WO
>
>

bumper

October 31st 07, 05:41 AM

Back when I worked for a living (though some employees may think that never
occurred), it was convenient to slip off to the airport and pull the Stemme
out of the T-hangar. Unfolding the wings took minutes, pre-flight a bit
longer, but altogether much less time and effort than rigging a glider.

The Stemme allowed me to go soaring as easily as pulling a Mooney out of the
hangar. It also allowed operations at a tower controlled airport (Napa, CA)
with no hassles either as a power plane taxiing out or, a few hours later,
as a glider returning to land. There's no way I could have enjoyed such
spur-of-the-moment soaring with the ASH26E I own now.

The Stemme S10-VT is uniquely capable when it comes to ground handling,
cruising under power, cruise climb to high altitude (great for saw-tooth
eating distance), and soaring performance including high speed polar. All of
this capability rolled into one package does come at a price. Systems are
complex and ship maintenance shouldn't be ignored. Yearly maintenance costs,
while not a deal breaker, will be significantly more that with a pylon
self-launcher.

So why did I sell the Stemme for a ASH26? I retired and moved to Minden, so
some of the Stemme's advantages were no longer needed. I continue to fly the
26E alongside my Stemme friends. The ships perform very similarly, though
the 26E will outclimb the S-10 in smaller or weaker thermals. Running
between thermals at 90 knots, the sink rate is so close it's hard to tell a
difference.

Under power there is no comparison. The S10-VT easily climbs at 90 - 100
knots and is still going strong at 18K. In level cruise it easily does 125
knots without pushing hard. The ASH26E can climb 8K AGL if you're patient.
In level cruise it'll do 70 knots (due to the climb prop). On the plus side,
my 26E has been very reliable.

Yup, I lived through the VT's early-on prop, gear box recalls and most of
the AD's. Even so, if I needed the capabilities of the Stemme I'd consider
buying another.

As far a bemoaning the prices of self-launchers and motorgliders in general
.. . . have you checked the price of a new Cessna? Even with the weak dollar,
compared to the aluminum stuff new gliders still look pretty good.

bumper
Quiet Vent kit & MKII "high tech" yaw string (the cheapest toys you can get
for your glider)

Dan[_6_]

October 31st 07, 01:20 PM

On Oct 30, 10:40 pm, Bruce > wrote:
> Hi Dan
>
> Only ~1:40 but the Pipistrel Taurus would also be a good option given the
> requirements you set.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> Dan wrote:
> > On Oct 30, 4:16 pm, wrote:
> >> On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR > wrote:
>
> >>> There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
> >>> Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)
> >> The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
> >> distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
> >> a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
> >> It is complicated to do all these things...
>
> >> The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
> >> It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
> >> Not for touring under power, though more than enough
> >> capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
> >> below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
> >> by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
> >> is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
> >> is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.
>
> >> So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
> >> for a different kind of flying !
>
> >> Best Regards, Dave "YO"
> > Dave,
> > Everyone's requirements for a motorglider are different. My main
> > goal is to eliminate the long drive time to the gliderports. This is
> > a fact of life in southern California especially if you live in the
> > beach areas. I have a hangar/shop at an airport so that is no
> > problem, in my case it is what I desire.
> > My requirements for the "perfect motorglider" are to operate out of a
> > small narrow airport in the Los Angeles basin very close to LAX. I
> > need to taxi and maybe even taxi with the wings folded. I need to
> > taxi around many obstacles just as easily as a Cessna. I want to fly
> > 50 miles or more to areas where I can soar. I feel these two
> > requirements can not be filled with self launchers. I'm sure the
> > Antares is a wonderful machine but I put the Antares into the category
> > of being a self launcher, not a motorglider. I've never seen an
> > Antares but when I've considered a self launcher I have gravitated
> > towards the ASH-26E, mostly because I've seen them and flown with
> > them.
> > I've flown the Stemme and the Ximango and liked them both. They both
> > fit the physical taxi and ground maneuvering requirements I desire.
> > Having owned an ASW-20 for several years I don't think I would be
> > happy with lower performance so the Stemme is more appealing from that
> > point of view. When I flew the Stemme we flew both ridge and thermals
> > found it handled very well. It truly is an awesome machine.
> > The Carat is also high on my list. I'm a little concerned it may be a
> > little tight to taxi around my airport. The span will just fit
> > (tight) but the new FAA mandated signage at taxi ways may pose a
> > problem. I haven't flown one but I've seen and flown with a few,
> > they impress me.
> > A nice feature I do like about a self launcher and the Carat is the
> > ability to trailer as an option. This would allow more flexibility
> > with regards to weather. The ability to trailer would minimize the
> > problems we have with VFR flight during the "June Gloom" marine
> > stratus we deal with in the summer here in SoCal.
> > Maybe if the next version of Antares had a conventional landing gear
> > and folding wing tips it would be higher on my list!
>
> > Dan Rihn
> > ASW-20 WO- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bruce,
Yes, I've been following the Taurus as well as waiting for the Mangus/
Maxus to fly. Also keeping an eye on the latest from Stemme. At the
same time saving my money and waiting for the dollar to turn around.
Meanwhile loving my ASW-20 and wishing it could taxi, takeoff, climb
out and motor home at the end of the day!

Dan

Dan[_6_]

October 31st 07, 01:24 PM

On Oct 30, 10:41 pm, "bumper" > wrote:
> Back when I worked for a living (though some employees may think that never
> occurred), it was convenient to slip off to the airport and pull the Stemme
> out of the T-hangar. Unfolding the wings took minutes, pre-flight a bit
> longer, but altogether much less time and effort than rigging a glider.
>
> The Stemme allowed me to go soaring as easily as pulling a Mooney out of the
> hangar. It also allowed operations at a tower controlled airport (Napa, CA)
> with no hassles either as a power plane taxiing out or, a few hours later,
> as a glider returning to land. There's no way I could have enjoyed such
> spur-of-the-moment soaring with the ASH26E I own now.
>
> The Stemme S10-VT is uniquely capable when it comes to ground handling,
> cruising under power, cruise climb to high altitude (great for saw-tooth
> eating distance), and soaring performance including high speed polar. All of
> this capability rolled into one package does come at a price. Systems are
> complex and ship maintenance shouldn't be ignored. Yearly maintenance costs,
> while not a deal breaker, will be significantly more that with a pylon
> self-launcher.
>
> So why did I sell the Stemme for a ASH26? I retired and moved to Minden, so
> some of the Stemme's advantages were no longer needed. I continue to fly the
> 26E alongside my Stemme friends. The ships perform very similarly, though
> the 26E will outclimb the S-10 in smaller or weaker thermals. Running
> between thermals at 90 knots, the sink rate is so close it's hard to tell a
> difference.
>
> Under power there is no comparison. The S10-VT easily climbs at 90 - 100
> knots and is still going strong at 18K. In level cruise it easily does 125
> knots without pushing hard. The ASH26E can climb 8K AGL if you're patient.
> In level cruise it'll do 70 knots (due to the climb prop). On the plus side,
> my 26E has been very reliable.
>
> Yup, I lived through the VT's early-on prop, gear box recalls and most of
> the AD's. Even so, if I needed the capabilities of the Stemme I'd consider
> buying another.
>
> As far a bemoaning the prices of self-launchers and motorgliders in general
> . . . have you checked the price of a new Cessna? Even with the weak dollar,
> compared to the aluminum stuff new gliders still look pretty good.
>
> bumper
> Quiet Vent kit & MKII "high tech" yaw string (the cheapest toys you can get
> for your glider)

Bumper,
As usual you are right on. My situation is more like yours when you
operated out of Napa. Also like you, my living situation may change
when I retire. That would change my requirements and a self launcher
would be more acceptable.
Dan

[email protected]

October 31st 07, 05:23 PM

This is a good thread and I would like to add my 2 cents worth. I
did have 5 flying machines, 2 single engine aircraft and 3 gliders. I
decided a month ago to reduce my fleet. With the power planes, and the
fact that I might loose my medical, letting go of the Lancair ES and
keeping the new Jabiru J250 light sports aircraft made sense. The
beautiful Lancair now has a very happy new owner. The decision with
the 3 soaring machines was more difficult. I have a Stemme S10-VT, a
DG800B and a SparrowHawk. I decided to lighten up by one. Which one?
If you have read what has been said most of the considerations have
been mentioned and I concur with almost all previously said.
OK, so what are my personal preferences? Minimum hazzle and maximum
fun. The DG rigging is a pain and really needs 2 people. So for the
winter it goes into its trailer. Both the Stemme and the SparrowHawk
fit into T hangers and are used year around. Much better ground
handlng with the Stemme and the SparrowHawk. The performances of the
DG and Stemme are virtually identical. The Stemme is a 2 place side by
side machine and I like that. The Stemme can cruise indefinitely at
greater than 100 knots up to 18,000 feet. It is the most versatile and
convenient motor glider (power plane?) in the world. The SparrowHawk
is by far the most fun glider I have ever flown, superbly light in its
handling and its ground handling is second to no glider. Just 100% fun
although I don't attempt 100k XCs with it (that's reserved for my 50/1
ships).
So which one of the 3 soaring machines do you think I have up for
sale?
Dave

Mike the Strike

October 31st 07, 05:35 PM

On Oct 31, 11:23 am, " >
wrote:
> This is a good thread and I would like to add my 2 cents worth. I
> did have 5 flying machines, 2 single engine aircraft and 3 gliders. I
> decided a month ago to reduce my fleet. With the power planes, and the
> fact that I might loose my medical, letting go of the Lancair ES and
> keeping the new Jabiru J250 light sports aircraft made sense.

If you lose your medical (fail an FAA medical test), then it's my
understanding that you can't fly gliders, motorgliders or LSAs
either. You don't need to pass an aviation medical for the latter,
but you need to self-certify that you are fit to fly. Failure of an
FAA medical would overrule any self-certification.

So, if you think you are going to fail the FAA medical, just allow it
to lapse, then you can (fairly) honestly self-certify.

Perhaps specialists in this medical area would like to comment.

Mike

Bullwinkle

October 31st 07, 06:37 PM

On 10/31/07 11:35 AM, in article
om, "Mike the Strike"
> wrote:

> On Oct 31, 11:23 am, " >
> wrote:
>> This is a good thread and I would like to add my 2 cents worth. I
>> did have 5 flying machines, 2 single engine aircraft and 3 gliders. I
>> decided a month ago to reduce my fleet. With the power planes, and the
>> fact that I might loose my medical, letting go of the Lancair ES and
>> keeping the new Jabiru J250 light sports aircraft made sense.
>
> If you lose your medical (fail an FAA medical test), then it's my
> understanding that you can't fly gliders, motorgliders or LSAs
> either. You don't need to pass an aviation medical for the latter,
> but you need to self-certify that you are fit to fly. Failure of an
> FAA medical would overrule any self-certification.
>
> So, if you think you are going to fail the FAA medical, just allow it
> to lapse, then you can (fairly) honestly self-certify.
>
> Perhaps specialists in this medical area would like to comment.
>
> Mike
>
Partly right.

You can fly gliders or motorgliders without a medical, whether or not
medical certification has been formally denied by the FAA.

LSA's can be flown with just a driver's license medical clearance, AS LONG
AS the pilot has not been formally denied FAA medical certification. Thus,
if you know you're going to fail (and be denied), just let your medical
lapse.

That stated, there are many medical conditions for which a pilot assumes
they will be grounded that the FAA will actually clear.

I recommend a confidential discussion with the aeromedical docs at Virtual
Flight Surgeons, www.aviationmedicine.com . You might be surprised by what
you find out.

Bullwinkle

[email protected]

November 1st 07, 04:03 AM

Firstly a correction - I said 100k XCs. I meant 1000k XCs. That said
a
comment on medicals and reasonable behavior. The light sport aircraft
category,
as has been described, needs either a FAA medical or a valid US
driving license
with the caveat that a FAA medical has not been denied. If denied you
cannot fly a
light sports aircraft. So if you don't think your FAA medical will be
approved
don't take it period. You will still be able to fly gliders and real
complex aircraft
such as the Stemme without a medical even if it has been denied.
Sounds
reasonable? NO! But that is the law.
Being a reasonable person I find this nonsense and I have to judge,
whether or
not. for me, flying an aircraft makes sense. At this time yes but
there will be a
time when I will have to give up flying. Again as a reasonable person
I think I will
be able to recognize that time and take up instead perhaps golf, the
ultimate old
geezer's sport. I tried it 45 years ago and found it such a waste of
time I gave it
up but who knows what the future may hold? Choices narrow with age.
Dave

Jim MacDonald

December 24th 07, 06:04 AM

In rebuttal to Post#4 (Mal): The S10-VT's high L/D,
low minimum sink rate, and jettison-able canopy for
bail-out make it one of the safest and most capable
light aircraft available. I've never felt safer flying
in any other aircraft.

Posting a 2002 incident (whose cause was identified
and corrected), coupled with a 2006 incident (the cause
of which is not stated/unknown) is unfair. I would
remind Mal that the majority of aircraft crashes are
caused by pilot error, not aircraft problems.

I can't really speak to the reason why more may be
on the market at any given time .... LSA may be a factor,
or perhaps sellers are considering purchasing the new
S6.

I have yet to meet a dissatisfied S10-VT pilot ....
quite the contrary!

Jim MacDonald

December 24th 07, 06:05 AM

[email protected]

February 14th 15, 08:08 PM

On Monday, October 29, 2007 at 11:02:08 PM UTC-4, Forest Baskett wrote:
> Stemme motorgliders are complicated, without a doubt,
> but you can do some amazing things with them. Take
> a look at some of the trips that Marty Hellman has
> documented on his web site, http://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soarin
> g/photos.html. If you are interested a resource you
> should consider is Glider Bob in Telluride. He gives
> rides, instructs and acts as a sales agent for many
> sellers. I think he has been involved with Stemmes
> since they first came to the US. Unlike Marty and
> Glider Bob I am a relatively new owner but I am happy
> to try to answer any questions.
>
> Forest
>
> At 00:06 30 October 2007, Pigro wrote:
> >On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Are these people already upgrading to the Antares?
> >> ;-) I'm not
> >>trolling, but rather am looking for actual information
> >>and opinions on
> >>the S10-VT motorglider.
> >
> >I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years,
> >tgether with
> >4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this
> >opportunity.
> >
> >I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy
> >to Morocco and
> >back.
> >It was an S10-v (not 'T'). Excellent performance in
> >cruise, not ideal
> >takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full
> >tanks, I was way
> >beyond MTOW.
> >Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring
> >safaris,
> >quite good for serious XC, especially if the center
> >of gravity had
> >been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's
> >quite awkward in
> >thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...)
> >
> >I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions.
> >TE probe never worked well.
> >Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory:
> >better
> >revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again.
> >
> >Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller
> >TBO almost
> >doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO
> >had been
> >extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30%
> >
> >Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier
> >on a long runway.
> >The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher
> >than they look.
> >But you do need a smooth surface.
> >
> >Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on
> >grass: it's quite
> >easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact.
> >
> >The VT has much better takeoff performance.
> >
> >I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the
> >owner has finally
> >sold it.
> >
> >Aldo Cernezzi
> >dg600M
> >

Forest,
I am considering purchasing a new 2015 Stemme S10VT but would like someone to hangar talk with. Please contact me off post if you could.
.

Thanks,
Jim

[email protected]

November 12th 16, 06:50 PM

On Monday, October 29, 2007 at 5:14:09 AM UTC-7, Mal wrote:
> http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2002/A02_9_11.pdf
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/tribute-to-pilot-killed-with-son-4/2006/08/28/1156617259628.html
>
> I wont fly in one.

Are the STEM powered gliders rated for power towing by the MFTG?

[email protected]

November 13th 16, 02:22 PM

I've owned a S10VT since 2009. It is the only machine that is good for cruising at 100 kts consuming 3 gallons/hour for up to 9 hours and, when in glider mode, has a performance par to 15 m gliders
It is also very balanced for low speed flying in thermals.

The new S12 must be even better

Sean[_2_]

November 14th 16, 02:43 PM

Folks who can afford products like the Stemme tend to like that new car smell. Plus Stemme's seem to hold their value well, which makes the upgrade even more appealing. In my view owning a Stemme is like owning a Supercar. I've heard the Stemme is a descent glider, but I've also heard the new one (12?) with the longer wings (26m?) doesn't perform much better than the original one. But so what? :-) It has longer wings! It is therefore cooler. And so on... This doesn't have to be entirely rational. See classic or sportscar owners, or airplane owners, etc.

I'm always surprised that Stemme owners never seem to enter contests such as the open nationals or sports class nationals. It would be fun to see how they "actually" perform even within the minimal level of objective measure that US OLC tasking still provides. Do Stemme's ever compete in Europe?

At the end of they day, if I lived out west, and just wanted to play glider pilot once in awhile and take friends for rides with ease, the Stemme is still the coolest motor glider on earth.

Looking forward to taking a ride in one someday soon.

Dan Marotta

November 14th 16, 04:05 PM

That's what I like: If one can "afford" a Stemme, he must be able to
afford it. How about this: I simply decided I wanted one and made
sacrifices in other areas to be able to afford it, then I got very lucky
knowing and meeting some folks who pointed me to a pristine example that
was sorely under utilized.

Super car? What's a new ASG-29 cost? Not a lot less than a 14-year old
Stemme. And you should get your numbers right. The S-10 has a 23 meter
span and the S-12 has 25. What's better? It has a baggage compartment
and electric trim! I believe you an also install an auto pilot, but for
me, that removes all fun and challenge.

The Stemme is an open class ship because it has long wings, not because
it's a super performer, but it /_is_/ adequate. It has a 50:1 glide
angle at best L/D and runs pretty nicely at 80 KIAS. It has a 1.10 OLC
handicap which means it's not a screamer. It's more like a Bentley than
a Ferrari to use the car analogy.

Never enter contests? Who cares about contests other than those few who
go to contests? I don't "play glider pilot" and fly once in a while.
In the 8 months I've owned my Stemme, I've flown it 223 hours, taught my
wife to fly it, and enjoyed her company on about 75% of the flights. We
flew a 285 km flight on 10/23. Where else can you find an aircraft with
the soaring performance of the Stemme and still be able to cruise on
engine power at 140 KTAS at 18,000' while burning only about 3.5 gph?
Of course, if I was a glutton for punishment, I could motor up to the
service ceiling of 33,000', but that would just be vulgar (and cold).

I once heard a guy in a Harley-Davidson dealership say, "It'd be cool to
ride a Harley", and I knew he'd be wasting a lot of money and the bike
would sit unused for a few years before he sold it for a big loss. It's
not about "cool". It's about doing what you want and not caring too
much about what others think.

Next time you're in Moriarty, stop by and I'll give you a flight.

On 11/14/2016 7:43 AM, Sean wrote:
> Folks who can afford products like the Stemme tend to like that new car smell. Plus Stemme's seem to hold their value well, which makes the upgrade even more appealing. In my view owning a Stemme is like owning a Supercar. I've heard the Stemme is a descent glider, but I've also heard the new one (12?) with the longer wings (26m?) doesn't perform much better than the original one. But so what? :-) It has longer wings! It is therefore cooler. And so on... This doesn't have to be entirely rational. See classic or sportscar owners, or airplane owners, etc.
>
> I'm always surprised that Stemme owners never seem to enter contests such as the open nationals or sports class nationals. It would be fun to see how they "actually" perform even within the minimal level of objective measure that US OLC tasking still provides. Do Stemme's ever compete in Europe?
>
> At the end of they day, if I lived out west, and just wanted to play glider pilot once in awhile and take friends for rides with ease, the Stemme is still the coolest motor glider on earth.
>
> Looking forward to taking a ride in one someday soon.

--
Dan, 5J

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

November 14th 16, 04:13 PM

On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:43:58 -0800, Sean wrote:

> At the end of they day, if I lived out west, and just wanted to play
> glider pilot once in awhile and take friends for rides with ease, the
> Stemme is still the coolest motor glider on earth.
>
.... and I'm fairly sure its still the only aircraft to have soared Everest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATnNWnlLuT8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxlbxdYTPZE

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Duster

November 14th 16, 06:40 PM

......I've flown it 223
> hours, taught my wife to fly it, and enjoyed her company on about
> 75% of the flights.Â*....snip.

.....er....ah....Dan, I think you made a big faux pas that needs correction ASAP. I'm sure you meant to say, "I enjoyed her company 100% of the time. We fly together 75% of the time".

It's almost Christmas, what were you thinking?
Mike

[email protected]

November 15th 16, 12:10 AM

"I enjoyed her company 100% of the time. We fly together 75% of the time".

A friend of mine (who shall remain nameless) often says "I've been happily married for ten years. I've been LEGALLY married for thirty."

Dan Marotta

November 15th 16, 12:12 AM

Oh man, you're right! But in my defense, I read your reply to her and
we both got a chuckle. We enjoy every minute that we fly together but
about 25% of the total time, I fly alone.

On 11/14/2016 11:40 AM, Duster wrote:
> ......I've flown it 223
>> hours, taught my wife to fly it, and enjoyed her company on about
>> 75% of the flights. ....snip.
> ....er....ah....Dan, I think you made a big faux pas that needs correction ASAP. I'm sure you meant to say, "I enjoyed her company 100% of the time. We fly together 75% of the time".
>
> It's almost Christmas, what were you thinking?
> Mike

--
Dan, 5J

Sean[_2_]

November 15th 16, 01:15 AM

Can't wait Dan! Thx!

bumper[_4_]

November 15th 16, 05:22 AM

The Stemme is unique among other gliders in several ways, and so are uniquely appealing! Here's how I enjoyed mine:

Stores in a regular T-hangar and able to operate out of even a busy tower controlled field. This allows a business person to leave the office early, get to the airport and unfold the wings, pre-flight, (this just takes minutes), taxi out on conventional retracting gear with wing clearance above signs and such, launch and go soar for a few hours. Ground handling is very good, four of us taxied out in a 35 knot wind, made 4 90 degree turns and launched pretty much vertically at the runway intersection (brag: I went first).. No other high performance glider I'm aware of could do that.

Turbo charged and intercooled, the Stemme can climb out of high and hot airports with no problem. Switching over to power involves little extra drag (a loss of maybe 12-15 L/D until the prop is turning). It handles turbulence with aplomb, soaking up the bumps better than any lighter glider I've flown.

I have a bit over 450 hours in the S10. I flew alongside a Stemme for about 15 miles with my ASH26E (50/1) both gliding straight line in fairly smooth air. He was slowly losing altitude on me the whole time, which was surprising, as I'd flown alongside Marty Hellman's S10 many times and running performance was quite similar. Discussing this on the radio with the other pilot (who shall go unnamed) Terry advised he'd forgotten to close his nose cone and thus his engine cooling vents were open too - for the extra drag, we still wasn't doing too bad, having lost only a few hundred feet on me as I recall :c)

Dan Marotta

November 15th 16, 04:30 PM

Bring it, Sean. I'll be happy to show our next World Champion the
luxury of the Stemme!

On 11/14/2016 6:15 PM, Sean wrote:
> Can't wait Dan! Thx!

--
Dan, 5J

November 15th 16, 05:00 PM

On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 at 7:23:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I recall one occasion where person bought new Stemme from the factory.
> On it's arrival to USA from Germany, it had 3 new AD's already. It is
> frustrating to buy a new plane and start working the AD's before you
> can fly.
>
> On motorgliders generally. I can't understand why a piece of crap
> engine installed into glider costs more than a new car. Some things
> are totally wrong. Can't the engineers build a reliable engine on a
> reasonable price? Cost of motorglider is enourmous now'a'days. Way too
> much.
>
> This is the only sport where a sport equipment costs ~$100000 and up
> and when you are world champion, you get absolutely nothing. Maybe a
> trophy, which you need to ship back home and pay extra fees to
> airlines.
>
> Costs are a big dilemma and that is the biggest reason why soaring is
> declining...
>
> PS
>
>
>
> On 29 loka, 17:03, Dan > wrote:
> > On Oct 27, 9:23 pm, VARR > wrote:
> >
> > > There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
> >
> > > Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1
> > > for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm
> >
> > > Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not
> > > trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on
> >
> > For many years I've been on a quest to own a motorglider. It has been
> > a long time dream of mine to enhance my soaring with the flexibility
> > only a motorglider offers. I have been watching and learning as much
> > as I can about all motorgliders (self launchers too) in general. When
> > I first saw the Stemme in 1992 at Oshkosh (its USA debut) I was very
> > impressed and I've followed the development of it closely. It's an
> > awesome machine. No doubt, the Stemme is by far the most complicated
> > sailplane ever. Also note that it does things no other sailplane has
> > ever done before. We have a saying in the Aerospace world....."if it
> > was easy it would have been done before".
> >
> > I too tried to join the Stemme group, but like you I'm not an owner so
> > I too was not allowed to join. I agree with you that this is very
> > frustrating if you are trying to learn more about the Stemme. However
> > I also understand why the group took this course of action. From what
> > I've learned they felt that by keeping it only for owners they could
> > deal with the issues (AD's etc...) more frankly, openly and honestly
> > between themselves and not become distracted by outside commenter's
> > and sometimes trolls. This was a tough decision for the group but from
> > an engineering viewpoint probably the best way to get through what I
> > call teething problems. I've been around airplanes and gliders my
> > entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31
> > years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set
> > of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own. Rumor
> > mongering usually leads to nothing productive. I gave up trying to
> > talk to non-owners who all had an opinion but really were not
> > knowledgeable and I put them into the category of just generating more
> > gossip and rumor mongering.
> >
> > So I too was frustrated in truly trying to learn more about the
> > Stemme. What I eventually did was talk to owners of Stemme's. Some
> > were far more open and knowledgeable than others. In general here are
> > some of what I've learned and some of my observations.
> >
> > I've learned much about each problem, and AD and they all seem to make
> > logical sense for why the issue arose and the associated fix. Another
> > issue I feel is equally important is the preventative maintenance.
> > With such a complicated aircraft and so many newly developed systems
> > many of the needed preventative measures were not known or
> > understood. Time in the fleet has now started to address this. As
> > far as I can tell Stemme and the owners group have dealt with each
> > problem. And as far as I know each AD has fixed the problem and it
> > has not been a recurring problem after the AD was complied with. I
> > am of the belief that properly maintained and with an understanding
> > eye one could truly enjoy the unique capabilities only offered by the
> > Stemme.
> >
> > The Stemme is certainly on my "short list" of aircraft I'd like to
> > own.
> >
> > Dan Rihn
> > Rihn Aircraft Corp.
> >
> > PS- Some of my own personal observations on all motorgliders in
> > general-
> > One of my nagging concerns with all motorgliders has been the use of
> > commercial off the shelf (COTS) components, in other words automotive
> > parts or motorcylcle parts. This has become more and more prevalent
> > in the aircraft industry and sometimes it works great and sometimes
> > not so well. Personally I prefer the use of as much more typical (at
> > least in the USA) AN fittings, certified hoses, TSO'd oil coolers,
> > wheels tires brakes etc... The rigorous testing these parts have had to
> > undergo is worth every penny and maybe your life. I also prefer
> > reliance on as much tried and true system design standards. I
> > understand that in many cases there are not "certified" parts that can
> > be used but in areas where they can I wish they would be used as much
> > as possible. On several motorgliders I've looked into I've seen many
> > non-standard practices used, I certainly don't like plastic hose
> > fittings on fuel and oil lines. Obviously several motorgliders also
> > use non certified engines (some 2-stroke). I'm also not keen on this,
> > so it's important to look at the fleet reliability. Some of the VW
> > conversions have been made to work well. But again I prefer as much
> > typical certified aircraft sub system components as possible.
> >
> > > the S10-VT motorglider.
> >
> > > Thx in advance.
> >
> > > VARR
> >
> > > P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the
> > > Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the
> > > simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/
> > > sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme
> > > aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited
> > > to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult
> > > Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup."

#clubclass where you can compete and have all the fun in the world for as little as 10 grand. no one makes people buy the really expensive ones. if nobody did, costs would come down.

this sport is only as expensive as you make it.

November 15th 16, 09:13 PM

On Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 11:00:42 AM UTC-6, ND wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 at 7:23:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>
>
> #clubclass where you can compete and have all the fun in the world for as little as 10 grand. no one makes people buy the really expensive ones. if nobody did, costs would come down.
>
> this sport is only as expensive as you make it.

Absolutely! I've been campaigning my old 301 Libelle for 15 years. I've got less than $20k total in the glider, instruments, trailer, AND the RV I tow it with. The single most expensive thing other than the glider and RV is that damn PFlarm unit. I guess the 'chute would have cost more than the Flarm, but I won that in one of the SSA sweepstakes (Remember those?).

[email protected]

November 16th 16, 09:56 AM

Dan,

Prices for second-hand S10's range from 75.000 euros to over 200.000 dollars.
I'm wondering what might explain the large differences between such prices?

regards,

Roel

Chris Rollings[_2_]

November 16th 16, 10:08 AM

Mostly age and hours on the aircraft I would imagine.

At 09:56 16 November 2016, wrote:
>Dan,
>
>Prices for second-hand S10's range from 75.000 euros to over 200.000
>dollars.
>I'm wondering what might explain the large differences between such
prices?
>
>regards,
>
>Roel
>

[email protected]

November 16th 16, 10:48 AM

To give non-stemmers what it can do, this video is about a 500 km cross country done in 3.5 hours.
It is so well balanced while thermaling you don't have to be looking at Bumper's yaw string all the time.

Sorry is not in english!

https://youtu.be/KX1B11M_9ZE

[email protected]

November 16th 16, 03:16 PM

I flew a few hundred hours in a Stemme S10V (no turbo, Limbach engine). Based at my club in Varese, I was able to reach the Atlas mountains in Morocco in just three flights.
When using the engine, the running costs are quite high, because of the propeller's limited TBO which significantly adds to the engine's overhauls. I've been told that TBO has been increased so its impact is a bit less.

The Limbach engine performed adequately but has single ignition. It is best suited to long, hard runways and not-too-high elevations. No problems taking off in Ouarzazate with 40Â°C (hot) at 1.300m MSL in June, two on board and slightly over max mass. The runway is 3 km long, however.

It's a side-by-side cockpit and that implies a few remarks. Of course it's more "social", but not plenty of room for two large male adults. Seating position is very comfortable, after I added cushions to support my thigs and knees. Visibility towards the side opposite to your seat is significantly less than in a tandem cockpit.
Also, Center of Gravity moves forward quite a lot with two people on board; if it's setup to fly safely while solo, it will be heavier on controls and require too much trim and stick when flown double. If setup for double, it will be impossible to fly solo (exceeding rearmost CoG). I enjoeyd it the most when flying solo.
Handling gets lazy with positive flap. I used Zero until I was well established in a decent thermal, and then added flap to reduce speed and circling diameter. Any corrections are much easier with zero flaps. Use landing only on final, after having found the correct alignment.

An Italian guy used it with excellent results for a few years in the Open Class championship. He stopped this activity when handicap factors were abolished for italian national championships in any class except Club and TwoSeater.

I miss the Stemme.

Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

Dan Marotta

November 16th 16, 04:14 PM

Well, I'm certainly not the expert (yet), but I would imagine that price
is directly proportional to service history, age, finish, equipment, and
engine/propeller hours. Though I paid at the high end of the used
market, mine, though 14 years old, had been kept in a hangar in a dry
temperate climate, had no more than 150 airframe hours, and about 50
engine hours. It still looks like a brand new ship. I've seen some
others that, though still very nice, look older but, given panel and
interior updates would fetch a much higher price. I think it would be
very xost effective to buy an older Stemme and update it with new
instruments and interior.

On 11/16/2016 2:56 AM, wrote:
> Dan,
>
> Prices for second-hand S10's range from 75.000 euros to over 200.000 dollars.
> I'm wondering what might explain the large differences between such prices?
>
> regards,
>
> Roel

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta

November 16th 16, 04:24 PM

Who needs to understand? Just look at their faces.

My best fight to date was a bit over 640 km but I was still new in the
ship. I can't wait until next summer...!

On 11/16/2016 3:48 AM, wrote:
> To give non-stemmers what it can do, this video is about a 500 km cross country done in 3.5 hours.
> It is so well balanced while thermaling you don't have to be looking at Bumper's yaw string all the time.
>
> Sorry is not in english!
>
> https://youtu.be/KX1B11M_9ZE

--
Dan, 5J

bumper[_4_]

November 17th 16, 05:49 AM

On Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 2:48:29 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> It is so well balanced while thermaling you don't have to be looking at Bumper's yaw string all the time.

>
> https://youtu.be/KX1B11M_9ZE

In the interest of full disclosure - - it's a good thing you don't have to look at one of my MKIV "high tech" yaw stings, as that ISN'T one! :c)

Looks like you are still having fun though, which proves you don't need one of my yaw strings to do that. It does help though!

bumper

bumper[_4_]

November 17th 16, 05:59 AM

Prices can be affected by a number of things.

The S10 has a fixed pitch prop and normally aspirated Limbach. It may not have folding wings, which detracts a lot from convenience and speed of rigging - making it a one man, easy operation that take just minutes.

A S10-VT has a turbo charged, intercooled engine and prop that has take off and cruise positions.

There are also two panel shapes, the earlier standard panel and the "mountain soaring" panel that is a little smaller, but easier for the pilot or passenger to see out the opposite side of the canopy - since it's introduction, I think most Stemmes are sold with this option.

I think those are the main options and those that would be the most expensive to retrofit.

A few options, at least back when I purchased my ship in '97, like long range tanks, if you ordered you paid for them, and if you didn't order them, you got them for free anyway, as "all" the wings came with them!

Dave Walsh

November 17th 16, 06:35 PM

The Limbach engined S10 could also have the VP (variable
pitch) prop.

[email protected]

November 17th 16, 07:04 PM

Thanks for the responses!

[email protected]

November 18th 16, 01:45 AM

On Monday, 14 November 2016 09:13:55 UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:43:58 -0800, Sean wrote:
>
> > At the end of they day, if I lived out west, and just wanted to play
> > glider pilot once in awhile and take friends for rides with ease, the
> > Stemme is still the coolest motor glider on earth.
> >
> ... and I'm fairly sure its still the only aircraft to have soared Everest
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATnNWnlLuT8
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxlbxdYTPZE
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org

|
"... and I'm fairly sure its still the only aircraft to have soared Everest"

Not true. This guy did it first and in a hang glider no less.

Angelo dâ€™Arrigo.
http://www.vagabondish.com/worlds-first-hang-gliding-over-mount-everest/

http://www.angelodarrigo.com/Over_Everest_en.php

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

November 18th 16, 11:23 AM

On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:45:35 -0800, srathbunr5 wrote:

> On Monday, 14 November 2016 09:13:55 UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:43:58 -0800, Sean wrote:
>>
>> > At the end of they day, if I lived out west, and just wanted to play
>> > glider pilot once in awhile and take friends for rides with ease, the
>> > Stemme is still the coolest motor glider on earth.
>> >
>> ... and I'm fairly sure its still the only aircraft to have soared
>> Everest
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATnNWnlLuT8
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxlbxdYTPZE
>>
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org
>
> |
> "... and I'm fairly sure its still the only aircraft to have soared
> Everest"
>
> Not true. This guy did it first and in a hang glider no less.
>
> Angelo dâ€™Arrigo.
> http://www.vagabondish.com/worlds-first-hang-gliding-over-mount-everest/
>
According to the comments in this reference and an article in Wikipedia
he was actually towed up and glided over Everest. The tow pilot (Richard
Meredith-Hay) confirms this: "Despite some very marginal weather
conditions and some last minute technical glitches the hang glider was
towed to a point very close to the summit. The microlight pilot exchanged
waves with a group of climbers who were standing on the summit as he flew
over Everest!".

Thats an interesting and skilful flight, but it isn't "soaring Everest",
which means climbing up and above the mountain without using an engine,
as Klaus Ohlman did and is shown in the videos I referenced.

> http://www.angelodarrigo.com/Over_Everest_en.php
>
Angelo was not the first man to fly over Everest as this link claims:
that was done by Lord Clydesdale and Stewart Blacker in 1933, flying a
modified Westland PV-3 and accompanied by two other pilots in a Westland
PV-5.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |