Long x-country...

[Jay Honeck]

Well, as I type this our 17-year-old is on his long cross country
flight, on a picture-perfect Midwestern fall day.

Imagine yourself a teenager again, alone in a clapped out old Cessna
150, high above the harvested cornfields of Iowa, trying to find
Grinnell, Ames and Iowa City without so much as a GPS on board!

Luckily he's inherited Mary's sense of direction, so he stands a good
chance of making it...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Big John]

Jay

Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
Great help in navigation.

Big John

*********************************************

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:55:58 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote:

>Well, as I type this our 17-year-old is on his long cross country
>flight, on a picture-perfect Midwestern fall day.
>
>Imagine yourself a teenager again, alone in a clapped out old Cessna
>150, high above the harvested cornfields of Iowa, trying to find
>Grinnell, Ames and Iowa City without so much as a GPS on board!
>
>Luckily he's inherited Mary's sense of direction, so he stands a good
>chance of making it...
>
>;-)

[buttman]

On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
> Jay
>
> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
> Great help in navigation.
>
> Big John

Don't they run like that everywhere? When I got my training in Ohio, I
was never taught to use the furrow/fence lines in navigation, and I
never even noticed that they could be useful for such. Once I started
instructing in California, I happened to notice they can be really
helpful in navigating, and I now can't imagine trying to navigate
without them.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"buttman" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
>> Jay
>>
>> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
>> Great help in navigation.
>>
>> Big John
>
> Don't they run like that everywhere?

Nope. In hilly terrain, they run any-which-way.
--
Jim in NC

[ManhattanMan]

Morgans wrote:
> "buttman" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
>>> Great help in navigation.
>>>
>>> Big John
>>
>> Don't they run like that everywhere?
>
> Nope. In hilly terrain, they run any-which-way.

That rules out 95% of Iowa (and the rest of the plains)...

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"ManhattanMan" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
>> "buttman" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
>>>> Great help in navigation.
>>>>
>>>> Big John
>>>
>>> Don't they run like that everywhere?
>>
>> Nope. In hilly terrain, they run any-which-way.
>
> That rules out 95% of Iowa (and the rest of the plains)...
Fence lines typically run along property lines, and since the overwhelming
majority of property lines are configured N-S and E-W, it only stands to
reason that fence lines would also, regardless of terrain.


--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:48:44 -0000, buttman > wrote:


>
>Don't they run like that everywhere? When I got my training in Ohio,

Sportys, or a certain university?

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:22:26 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:
>
>Nope. In hilly terrain, they run any-which-way.

This is true in New England.

[Viperdoc[_3_]]

Jay,

Be sure to post a note on how it went.

[Matt Whiting]

buttman wrote:
> On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
>> Jay
>>
>> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
>> Great help in navigation.
>>
>> Big John
>
> Don't they run like that everywhere? When I got my training in Ohio, I
> was never taught to use the furrow/fence lines in navigation, and I
> never even noticed that they could be useful for such. Once I started
> instructing in California, I happened to notice they can be really
> helpful in navigating, and I now can't imagine trying to navigate
> without them.
>

Not anywhere with mountains. Here in PA the fence lines are more random
and a function of terrain rather than magnetic direction.

Matt

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"buttman" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
>> Jay
>>
>> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
>> Great help in navigation.
>>
>> Big John
>
> Don't they run like that everywhere?

No. They only run where ther are section lines. The property lines in the
east are run along the "metes and bounds" system. Farmer Johns property run
along the creek to the top of the hill over to the big rock and back, based
on topography.

Surveying by using section lines happened during the time the west was
"won." Section lines start to show up in eastern Ohio and go west from
there.

That's why there are no straight roads in New England.

Karl Curator

[Peter Dohm]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ManhattanMan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Morgans wrote:
>>> "buttman" > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>>> On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
>>>>> Great help in navigation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Big John
>>>>
>>>> Don't they run like that everywhere?
>>>
>>> Nope. In hilly terrain, they run any-which-way.
>>
>> That rules out 95% of Iowa (and the rest of the plains)...
> Fence lines typically run along property lines, and since the overwhelming
> majority of property lines are configured N-S and E-W, it only stands to
> reason that fence lines would also, regardless of terrain.
>
>
> --
> Matt Barrow
> Performance Homes, LLC.
> Cheyenne, WY
>
I believe that a lot of property in the original 13 states has been
subdivided from plots that predated the grid system. A lot of the old
descriptions follow ridge lines, rivers and streams, and a lot of old roads
and trails. In any case, I can attest that landmarks along cardinal compass
points are the exception rather then the rule in the western parts of the
Carolinas and Virginia.

OTOH, magnetic north is close enough to true north in those same areas to
easily place the next waypoint/landmark in easy view. Therefore, the
hardship is not nearly so great as it might be further west.

Just my $0.02
Peter

[Peter Dohm]

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
>
> "buttman" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
>>> Great help in navigation.
>>>
>>> Big John
>>
>> Don't they run like that everywhere?
>
> No. They only run where ther are section lines. The property lines in the
> east are run along the "metes and bounds" system. Farmer Johns property
> run along the creek to the top of the hill over to the big rock and back,
> based on topography.
>
> Surveying by using section lines happened during the time the west was
> "won." Section lines start to show up in eastern Ohio and go west from
> there.
>
> That's why there are no straight roads in New England.
>
> Karl Curator
>
I should have read to the end before posting, as I see that several of you
have already stated much the same thing.

Peter

[Jay Honeck]

> Be sure to post a note on how it went.

Well, we're all back home, safe and sound.

Mary, our daughter, and I flew to Praire du Chein (PDC) to meet this
group's own Jim Burns and his family for Sunday brunch at the Isle of
Capri casino. Meanwhile, Joe was off, safely completing his round
robin cross country flight from Iowa City (IOW) to Grinnell (GGI),
from Grinnell to Ames (AMW), from Ames back to Grinnell, and finally
back to Iowa City.

Best of all, we were able to hear Joe en route on 122.8, as he came
into land on Rwy 31 in Grinnell, while we droned along over N.E Iowa.
It was an amazing feeling, listening to him coming into land at a
strange airport, far from home...

Joe's story was typical of most students, I suspect. He took off for
Grinnell at 10:30 AM, and headed north up to I-80. At the interstate,
he hung a left, and flew West 55 miles to Grinnell -- simple as pie.

Upon landing, he was shocked to find the airport office closed! They
don't open until 1 PM on Sunday, so he called me (we hadn't left for
the airport yet) for advice. I told him to simply find *anyone* on
the field, and ask them to sign his book.

He found a guy working on an old biplane, who gladly signed his log.
They chatted a bit, Joe ate his trail mix, drank his diet coke, and
then he departed for Ames.

Half way to Ames the turbulence got going, and he climbed to 3500
feet, where it was a bit smoother. From that altitude it was harder
to see his landmarks, so he became a bit disoriented. After a bit he
checked his sectional for a road that would take him to Ames.

He found a freeway off to the west, and followed it right to Ames.
There the winds, which had been just 4 knots in Iowa City, were 10
gusting to 17! A bit of a pucker for a new pilot, but he apparently
had no troubles.

He spent a while in the Ames FBO relaxing (remember how tiring that
flight was, when you were a student?), got the FBO girl to sign his
log book, and then departed for Grinnell once again.

The flight to GGI was uneventful, although his landing was interesting
with the winds picking up. Joe says it wasn't his smoothest
touchdown, but it wasn't his worst, either.

This time the FBO was open, but they had no snack machines. For a 17
year old boy, THIS was a crisis. (We have to feed him every few
hours, it seems.)

According to Joe, a "95 year old lady" (probably 55) told him that
they were cooking bratwurst on the grill, and offered him one. This
was music to his ears, and he enjoyed the camaraderie and food of a
typical smalltown Iowa airport.

After enjoying his brat, he suddenly realized that it was 1:45 PM, and
he only had the 150 reserved till 2 PM! Hustling through his
preflight, he made good use of a 20 knot tailwind all the way home to
Iowa City, where he was met by the disgruntled renter, and a not-so-
happy FBO clerk. He apologized, and headed for home, beat.

Mary and I got home a little while ago, after our own uneventful
flight home from Wisconsin, to find him curled up in a blanket on the
couch, exhausted. It's been a great day of flying for the Honeck
family, and he's now one big step closer to earning that ticket.

I told him this evening that he can now *really* call himself a
"pilot". Soloing was a huge step, but there is nothing like that
first trip out of the nest to really test your mettle -- and he passed
with flying colors.

Tomorrow, he's off to Cedar Rapids for some tower practice, then it'll
be time to take the written, do some brush up, and take the exams!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Young[_2_]]

On Oct 28, 10:14 am, Big John > wrote:
> Jay
>
> Be sure and remind him that the fence lines run N-S and E-W in Iowa.
> Great help in navigation.
>
> Big John

Reminds me of when ...

My first USAF assignment was Wright Field (Dayton). During my checkout
at the Aero Club, I got thoroughly disoriented because the roads and
field boundaries went every which way. The only order I could discern
was 'spokes of a wheel' converging on one town or another.

With my girlfriend and my family in Kansas, and two T-34s in the Aero
Club, I made many trips to visit home. I soon noticed that somewhere
west of Dayton the pattern on the ground returned to normal. (I learned
to fly at USAFA, so 'normal' to me was the grid pattern of N-S and E-W
roads and fence lines across eastern Colorado and Kansas.)

From this experience, I've advanced this theory: During the great
migration westward, it was at about the Ohio-Indiana border where the
land surveyors caught up with and passed the settlers.

Jay - congratulations to your son for his accomplishment, and thank you
for sharing it with us. Such stories bring back great memories, and
give promise that our world of general aviation will live on.

george

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Peter Dohm" >

> I believe that a lot of property in the original 13 states has been
> subdivided from plots that predated the grid system. A lot of the old
> descriptions follow ridge lines, rivers and streams, and a lot of old
> roads and trails. In any case, I can attest that landmarks along cardinal
> compass points are the exception rather then the rule in the western parts
> of the Carolinas and Virginia.
>
What he said.

More often than not, the property in my area (Western NC) follows streams,
ridges, and roads. The roads were usually laid out following streams, or
ridges, or easy ways to cross ridges from one population center to the next.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Dohm]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
-----much snipped----
> Upon landing, he was shocked to find the airport office closed! They
> don't open until 1 PM on Sunday, so he called me (we hadn't left for
> the airport yet) for advice. I told him to simply find *anyone* on
> the field, and ask them to sign his book.
>
> He found a guy working on an old biplane, who gladly signed his log.
> They chatted a bit, Joe ate his trail mix, drank his diet coke, and
> then he departed for Ames.
>
Have they really gone back to that insanity of requiring logbook signatures
at landing airports on cross countries; or is this just his particular
instructor?

(Grrrrr)
Peter

[Newps]

There's no reg for that so has to be the instructor. Seems pretty childish.





Peter Dohm wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> -----much snipped----
>
>>Upon landing, he was shocked to find the airport office closed! They
>>don't open until 1 PM on Sunday, so he called me (we hadn't left for
>>the airport yet) for advice. I told him to simply find *anyone* on
>>the field, and ask them to sign his book.
>>
>>He found a guy working on an old biplane, who gladly signed his log.
>>They chatted a bit, Joe ate his trail mix, drank his diet coke, and
>>then he departed for Ames.
>>
>
> Have they really gone back to that insanity of requiring logbook signatures
> at landing airports on cross countries; or is this just his particular
> instructor?
>
> (Grrrrr)
> Peter
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Have they really gone back to that insanity of requiring logbook signatures
> at landing airports on cross countries; or is this just his particular
> instructor?

Really? I didn't know this wasn't a common rule.

Every FBO around here has their own special stamper, with "I certify
that __________ did fly into ________ solo" that they use on every
student's logbook...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Margy Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Have they really gone back to that insanity of requiring logbook signatures
>>at landing airports on cross countries; or is this just his particular
>>instructor?
>
>
> Really? I didn't know this wasn't a common rule.
>
> Every FBO around here has their own special stamper, with "I certify
> that __________ did fly into ________ solo" that they use on every
> student's logbook...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
It's a throwback, but a fun one. The solo student gets a big welcome
and congrats from whoever is there, but now with many airports with
minimal coverage it can be hard to find someone.

Margy

[Jay Honeck]

> It's a throwback, but a fun one. The solo student gets a big welcome
> and congrats from whoever is there, but now with many airports with
> minimal coverage it can be hard to find someone.

It worries me that these rites of passage are apparently becoming rare
in parts of the country. These are important things that we shouldn't
allow to die.

Tearing off the shirt of a solo pilot is apparently not the tradition
it once was, either, but our little family now has three of those very
special mementos hanging on our wall. The solo stamps/signatures in
my logbook (and the feeling of being "welcomed to the club" at every
airport I visited as a student) trigger wonderful memories, and served
to give me more incentive to actually finish up the private.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

"Back in the day" I remember, on one occasion, having to walk 1/2 mile to
the nearest farm house to get a signature for my long cc. The housewife I
encountered was familiar with the procedure as apparently I hadn't been the
first to present her with the request. She was as happy to sign it as I was
proud of asking her. We both knew I had accomplished something.

There are several reasons this tradition should continue, whether required
by the feds or not. It gets the pilot out of the airplane and forces him to
encounter the local pilots and public. They learn about the layout of the
fbo, fuel systems, and services available. All of which they may need some
day or worse, some dark night when that night time roughness develops.

Without exception, I know of no pilot that would hesitate to scribe his name
and a short congrats in a fledgling's log book. I've signed several and
I'll admit most where because I initiated the conversation and asked to sign
their logbook. Part of an instructors job is to expose their student to the
world of aviation that exists outside his local airport. The FAA
requirements afford the instructor ample opportunity but the instructor
should know how to take advantage of those situations. People are aviation.
Airports and airplanes are simply their tools. Ask your student to have
his/her logbook signed. You never know who he/she may encounter or what
they may learn.

Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> It's a throwback, but a fun one. The solo student gets a big welcome
>> and congrats from whoever is there, but now with many airports with
>> minimal coverage it can be hard to find someone.
>
> It worries me that these rites of passage are apparently becoming rare
> in parts of the country. These are important things that we shouldn't
> allow to die.
>
> Tearing off the shirt of a solo pilot is apparently not the tradition
> it once was, either, but our little family now has three of those very
> special mementos hanging on our wall. The solo stamps/signatures in
> my logbook (and the feeling of being "welcomed to the club" at every
> airport I visited as a student) trigger wonderful memories, and served
> to give me more incentive to actually finish up the private.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[[email protected]]

On Oct 29, 4:55 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Well, as I type this our 17-year-old is on his long cross country
> flight, on a picture-perfect Midwestern fall day.
>
> Imagine yourself a teenager again, alone in a clapped out old Cessna
> 150, high above the harvested cornfields of Iowa, trying to find
> Grinnell, Ames and Iowa City without so much as a GPS on board!
>
> Luckily he's inherited Mary's sense of direction, so he stands a good
> chance of making it...
>

Aww, c'mon he has got a compass, watch and a Xcountry flight plan!
He's spreading his wings and will soon leave the nest!
:-)

Cheers

[[email protected]]

On Oct 29, 8:48 am, buttman > wrote:

> Don't they run like that everywhere? When I got my training in Ohio, I
> was never taught to use the furrow/fence lines in navigation, and I
> never even noticed that they could be useful for such. Once I started
> instructing in California, I happened to notice they can be really
> helpful in navigating, and I now can't imagine trying to navigate
> without them.

I'd say that assuming cardinal ground reference is inferior to the
proper use of a magnetic compass. In my limited experience fence lines
can and do run in all directions...

my 2c

Cheers

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "ManhattanMan" > wrote in message

>>>>
>>>> Nope. In hilly terrain, they run any-which-way.
>>>
>>> That rules out 95% of Iowa (and the rest of the plains)...
>> Fence lines typically run along property lines, and since the
>> overwhelming majority of property lines are configured N-S and E-W, it
>> only stands to reason that fence lines would also, regardless of terrain.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Barrow
>> Performance Homes, LLC.
>> Cheyenne, WY
>>
> I believe that a lot of property in the original 13 states has been
> subdivided from plots that predated the grid system. A lot of the old
> descriptions follow ridge lines, rivers and streams, and a lot of old
> roads and trails.

As you said: subdivided. Those old boundaries are long gone. Even at that,
the layout of the plots were done in sectors, and layout out a property with
weird angles was just that much more difficult.

> In any case, I can attest that landmarks along cardinal compass points
> are the exception rather then the rule in the western parts of the
> Carolinas and Virginia.

Landmarks, or grid references? They're not the same. No surveyor or
reference plotter is going to make his work that much more difficult. Though
I'm sure some very old plots run all over the board, any property subdivided
in the last 200 years is going to use cardinal directions.

> OTOH, magnetic north is close enough to true north in those same areas to
> easily place the next waypoint/landmark in easy view. Therefore, the
> hardship is not nearly so great as it might be further west.

Surveyors knew to layout true north long before.

>
> Just my $0.02
> Peter
>
>

[Andy Hawkins]

Hi,

In article >,
Peter > wrote:

> Have they really gone back to that insanity of requiring logbook signatures
> at landing airports on cross countries; or is this just his particular
> instructor?

I realise it's different over here, but in the UK the QXC pilot is given a
pre-flight authorisation form which allows him to visit only the airfields
on that form. A representative at that airfield (usually someone from ATC or
similar) has to sign the form, and rate the landing and overall airmanship
at each of the (I think) two landaways. If he lands anywhere else,
authorisation for the flight is immediately cancelled and cannot proceed
without permission of (I think) the Chief Flying Instructor of the school
concerned.

Andy

[Tri-Pacer]

>>
> Have they really gone back to that insanity of requiring logbook
> signatures at landing airports on cross countries; or is this just his
> particular instructor?
>


I open my first log book and note the signatures from my first X-country in
1955 and it brings back the memories. Long gone airports---long gone
people---

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

[Jay Honeck]

> Sounds like he had a good long XC. I didn't realize that anyone required
> logbook signoffs at each leg anymore. When I did my long XC (and the other
> XCs too) over four years ago it was strictly honor system. Which was a good
> thing for me, as there was no one at any of the tiny unregulated airports I
> landed at. Except for an unknown pilot at one of them, who radioed, "Cessna
> 150, thanks for dropping in." And a deer who ran across the runway at
> another just as I was on final.

Well, shame on your instructor for not sending you to more populated
airports. We've got plenty of unattended airstrips in Iowa, but Joe
didn't consider going to any of them as part of his training for
precisely this reason.

> Anyway, congratulations to Joe. I hope the
> rest of his training goes as smoothly.

So far, so good. I'm afraid the written test is going to be his
biggest hang-up, as (I suspect) it probably is with all teenage
student pilots. It's just really hard to sit down and STUDY when
you're 17...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RL Anderson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

[Snip]

> So far, so good. I'm afraid the written test is going to be his
> biggest hang-up, as (I suspect) it probably is with all teenage
> student pilots. It's just really hard to sit down and STUDY when
> you're 17...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

Even though I am not a pilot, I would like to make a suggestion. Maybe
what will help Joe is if he would join this NG, or R.A.S, under his own
handle and take advantage of the great aviation knowledge here. Maybe a
little bit of interactivity might help him out.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Rick

[Jay Honeck]

> Even though I am not a pilot, I would like to make a suggestion. Maybe
> what will help Joe is if he would join this NG, or R.A.S, under his own
> handle and take advantage of the great aviation knowledge here. Maybe a
> little bit of interactivity might help him out.
>
> Just my $0.02 worth.

He lurks here once in a while, but doesn't like to post. I don't know
why -- he's a good writer.

He's on line a lot, but it's all Facebook, IM'ing, and such --
"hanging out with friends" is all done via computer nowadays.

I also think he looks at Usenet as hopelessly quaint. Imagine, typing
in non-real time!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"