Precision Airmotive LLC [Archive]

Jerry Springer

November 3rd 07, 05:58 AM

Peter Nielson
Product Support Mgr.
Precision Airmotive LLC
14800 40th Ave NE
Marysville, WA 98271

360-651-8282

Subject: Letter to Industry

Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.

Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
carburetors speaks for itself.

Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
efforts have been unsuccessful.

This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
small business such as Precision.

Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
carburetor product line.

We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
to provide future support for this product line. There is a
substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
short time.

Rob Turk[_2_]

November 3rd 07, 07:51 AM

"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
news:u6UWi.434$lx.263@trndny05...
> Peter Nielson
> Product Support Mgr.
> Precision Airmotive LLC
> 14800 40th Ave NE
> Marysville, WA 98271
>
> 360-651-8282
>
> Subject: Letter to Industry
>
> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>
> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
> liability insurance for the product line.

This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a trend
then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft parts. Loss
of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
insurance premium.

Rob

Stealth Pilot[_2_]

November 3rd 07, 11:47 AM

move the company to australia.
Stealth Pilot

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:58:50 GMT, Jerry Springer >
wrote:

>Peter Nielson
>Product Support Mgr.
>Precision Airmotive LLC
>14800 40th Ave NE
>Marysville, WA 98271
>
>360-651-8282
>
>Subject: Letter to Industry
>
>Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>
>Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
>its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
>carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
>flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
>carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
>as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
>a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
>carburetors speaks for itself.
>
>Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
>dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
>sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
>absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
>whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
>Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
>efforts have been unsuccessful.
>
>This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
>design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
>obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
>While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
>well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
>independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
>costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
>small business such as Precision.
>
>Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
>left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
>carburetor product line.
>
>We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
>industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
>to provide future support for this product line. There is a
>substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
>distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
>short time.

Alex G.[_3_]

November 3rd 07, 04:04 PM

"Rob Turk" > wrote in message news:472c27f2$0$3519

Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
> production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
> insurance premium.
>

Maybe instead of giving more jobs to China (with their glowing record of
producing crap) you show consider BECOMING a less litigious country. When a
pilot digs a divot with his ass, the wifes lawyers will sue everyone who has
a nickel involved in that aircraft, provided thay have insurance or money.
If precision has no insurance or ready cash, no lawyer will serve them.

Rob Turk[_2_]

November 3rd 07, 05:13 PM

"Alex G." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rob Turk" > wrote in message
> news:472c27f2$0$3519
>
> Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
>> production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
>> insurance premium.
>>
>
> Maybe instead of giving more jobs to China (with their glowing record of
> producing crap) you show consider BECOMING a less litigious country. When
> a pilot digs a divot with his ass, the wifes lawyers will sue everyone who
> has a nickel involved in that aircraft, provided thay have insurance or
> money. If precision has no insurance or ready cash, no lawyer will serve
> them.

I *am* in a less litigious country, I was merely trying to give advice.
Maybe they can move production to *my* country, I'm sure we have the
craftsmen to produce equally fine products 8-)

Rob

The Netherlands (EHLE)

jerry wass

November 3rd 07, 07:45 PM

Does this mean our engines will soon be on a low-carb diet??

Jerry Springer wrote:
> Peter Nielson
> Product Support Mgr.
> Precision Airmotive LLC
> 14800 40th Ave NE
> Marysville, WA 98271
>
> 360-651-8282
>
> Subject: Letter to Industry
>
> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>
> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
> liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
> its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
> carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
> flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
> carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
> as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
> a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
> carburetors speaks for itself.
>
> Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
> dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
> sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
> absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
> whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
> Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
> efforts have been unsuccessful.
>
> This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
> design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
> obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
> While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
> well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
> independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
> costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
> small business such as Precision.
>
> Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
> left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
> carburetor product line.
>
> We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
> industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
> to provide future support for this product line. There is a
> substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
> distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
> short time.

Morgans[_2_]

November 3rd 07, 08:47 PM

"Jerry Wass" > wrote

Maybe this will be the push that the gubermint needs to pass some kind of
protection for individual parts makers, similar to what was done for small
aircraft manufacturers some years back.

Somewhere, somehow, I'm hopeful that the gubermint will do something to make
it less attractive to let everyone going sue-happy.

Crazy, yes. I still hope it happens, though. It NEEDS to happen, anyway.
--
Jim in NC

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

November 3rd 07, 09:26 PM

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jerry Wass" > wrote
>
> Maybe this will be the push that the gubermint needs to pass some kind of
> protection for individual parts makers, similar to what was done for small
> aircraft manufacturers some years back.
>
> Somewhere, somehow, I'm hopeful that the gubermint will do something to
> make it less attractive to let everyone going sue-happy.
>
> Crazy, yes. I still hope it happens, though. It NEEDS to happen, anyway.
> --
> Jim in NC

I suspect that the "protection" for the aircraft manufacturers is the reason
that the insurance for suppliers has gone up - they are next in line in the
food chain.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Morgans[_2_]

November 3rd 07, 10:32 PM

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote

> I suspect that the "protection" for the aircraft manufacturers is the
> reason that the insurance for suppliers has gone up - they are next in
> line in the food chain.

Prolly right, with that.

Net, they need to extend the protection to everything on the airplane.

Even better, take this opportunity to make some rulings to stop the madness
of meaningless law suits, all across the legal system.
--
Jim in NC

Andy Asberry[_2_]

November 4th 07, 12:36 AM

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:51:02 +0100, "Rob Turk"
> wrote:

>"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
>news:u6UWi.434$lx.263@trndny05...
>> Peter Nielson
>> Product Support Mgr.
>> Precision Airmotive LLC
>> 14800 40th Ave NE
>> Marysville, WA 98271
>>
>> 360-651-8282
>>
>> Subject: Letter to Industry
>>
>> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>
>> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>> liability insurance for the product line.
>
>This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a trend
>then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft parts. Loss
>of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
>production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
>insurance premium.
>
>Rob
>
Under US law, if a manufacturer has no place of business in the US,
the importer is considered the manufacturer.

Google for Foreign Tire Sales in New Jersey.

--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----

clare at snyder.on.ca

November 4th 07, 02:24 AM

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:51:02 +0100, "Rob Turk"
> wrote:

>"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
>news:u6UWi.434$lx.263@trndny05...
>> Peter Nielson
>> Product Support Mgr.
>> Precision Airmotive LLC
>> 14800 40th Ave NE
>> Marysville, WA 98271
>>
>> 360-651-8282
>>
>> Subject: Letter to Industry
>>
>> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>
>> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>> liability insurance for the product line.
>
>This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a trend
>then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft parts. Loss
>of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
>production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
>insurance premium.
>
>Rob

Not if they continue to be the importer/distributor. They still need
the insurance.
>

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

clare at snyder.on.ca

November 4th 07, 02:25 AM

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:45:44 GMT, Jerry Wass >
wrote:

>Does this mean our engines will soon be on a low-carb diet??
>

With tha carbs hung below the block as they have been for over 50
years I thought they already were?????
>
>
>Jerry Springer wrote:
>> Peter Nielson
>> Product Support Mgr.
>> Precision Airmotive LLC
>> 14800 40th Ave NE
>> Marysville, WA 98271
>>
>> 360-651-8282
>>
>> Subject: Letter to Industry
>>
>> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>
>> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>> liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
>> its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
>> carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
>> flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
>> carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
>> as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
>> a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
>> carburetors speaks for itself.
>>
>> Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
>> dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
>> sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
>> absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
>> whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
>> Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
>> efforts have been unsuccessful.
>>
>> This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
>> design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
>> obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
>> While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
>> well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
>> independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
>> costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
>> small business such as Precision.
>>
>> Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
>> left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
>> carburetor product line.
>>
>> We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
>> industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
>> to provide future support for this product line. There is a
>> substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
>> distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
>> short time.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

clare at snyder.on.ca

November 4th 07, 02:28 AM

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:32:46 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote
>
>> I suspect that the "protection" for the aircraft manufacturers is the
>> reason that the insurance for suppliers has gone up - they are next in
>> line in the food chain.
>
>Prolly right, with that.
>
>Net, they need to extend the protection to everything on the airplane.
>
>Even better, take this opportunity to make some rulings to stop the madness
>of meaningless law suits, all across the legal system.

Like THAT will ever happen in the "land of many laws - poorly written
and irratically enforced"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Kyle Boatright

November 4th 07, 03:21 AM

<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:51:02 +0100, "Rob Turk"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
>>news:u6UWi.434$lx.263@trndny05...
>>> Peter Nielson
>>> Product Support Mgr.
>>> Precision Airmotive LLC
>>> 14800 40th Ave NE
>>> Marysville, WA 98271
>>>
>>> 360-651-8282
>>>
>>> Subject: Letter to Industry
>>>
>>> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>>
>>> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>>> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>>> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>>> liability insurance for the product line.
>>
>>This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a trend
>>then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft parts.
>>Loss
>>of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
>>production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
>>insurance premium.
>>
>>Rob
>
> Not if they continue to be the importer/distributor. They still need
> the insurance.
>>

There are ways around product liability. Let's say I personally buy the
assets of Precision Airmotive. Then, I create a corporation to manufacture
the parts. I (personally) retain ownership of the tooling and lease it to
the corporation which makes the parts and carbs. Also, I manage the
corporation and pay myself nicely. Funny enough, the corporation never
really builds a big asset base. Nor does it carry product liability
insurance. Therefore, it probably isn't worth suing.

Even if (when?) someone sues the corporation, it simply goes out of business
and I lease the tooling to another corporation which uses essentially the
same business model.

This is similar to how BD Maule managed Maule for years.

KB

Morgans[_2_]

November 4th 07, 03:47 AM

<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote

>
> Like THAT will ever happen in the "land of many laws - poorly written
> and irratically enforced"

Hey, if yer gunna dream, dream BIG ! ! !

I shoulda added something to that, like a last comment of:

"Yeah, Right!"
--
Jim in NC

Dan[_2_]

November 4th 07, 06:24 AM

Jerry Wass wrote:
> Does this mean our engines will soon be on a low-carb diet??

Fuel injected engines have zero carbs.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Scott[_1_]

November 4th 07, 11:39 AM

I think the key is for the corporation (Precision in this case) to have
no assets (hence, nothing to go after with a lawsuit), so this sounds
viable. However, what if it's determined that the tooling you own were
the cause of part failures. Would you personally be liable in any way?
Maybe you put your tooling in an LLC or corporation, again, so that it
has no assets worth sueing over (except the tooling itself...and if
someone DOES sue and gets the tooling, we're back to square one...no one
will be able to produce the parts)?

Scott

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> <clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:51:02 +0100, "Rob Turk"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
>>>news:u6UWi.434$lx.263@trndny05...
>>>
>>>>Peter Nielson
>>>>Product Support Mgr.
>>>>Precision Airmotive LLC
>>>>14800 40th Ave NE
>>>>Marysville, WA 98271
>>>>
>>>>360-651-8282
>>>>
>>>>Subject: Letter to Industry
>>>>
>>>>Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>>>
>>>>Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>>>>carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>>>>unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>>>>liability insurance for the product line.
>>>
>>>This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a trend
>>>then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft parts.
>>>Loss
>>>of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
>>>production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
>>>insurance premium.
>>>
>>>Rob
>>
>>Not if they continue to be the importer/distributor. They still need
>>the insurance.
>>
>
> There are ways around product liability. Let's say I personally buy the
> assets of Precision Airmotive. Then, I create a corporation to manufacture
> the parts. I (personally) retain ownership of the tooling and lease it to
> the corporation which makes the parts and carbs. Also, I manage the
> corporation and pay myself nicely. Funny enough, the corporation never
> really builds a big asset base. Nor does it carry product liability
> insurance. Therefore, it probably isn't worth suing.
>
> Even if (when?) someone sues the corporation, it simply goes out of business
> and I lease the tooling to another corporation which uses essentially the
> same business model.
>
> This is similar to how BD Maule managed Maule for years.
>
> KB
>
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Scott[_1_]

November 4th 07, 11:40 AM

Ya, but doesn't somebody make the injectors? With my luck, that would
be the next "target company"....

Scott

Dan wrote:

> Jerry Wass wrote:
>
>> Does this mean our engines will soon be on a low-carb diet??
>
>
> Fuel injected engines have zero carbs.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Stealth Pilot[_2_]

November 4th 07, 01:10 PM

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:36:25 -0500, Andy Asberry >
wrote:

>On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:51:02 +0100, "Rob Turk"
> wrote:
>
>>"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
>>news:u6UWi.434$lx.263@trndny05...
>>> Peter Nielson
>>> Product Support Mgr.
>>> Precision Airmotive LLC
>>> 14800 40th Ave NE
>>> Marysville, WA 98271
>>>
>>> 360-651-8282
>>>
>>> Subject: Letter to Industry
>>>
>>> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>>
>>> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>>> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>>> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>>> liability insurance for the product line.
>>
>>This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a trend
>>then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft parts. Loss
>>of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
>>production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
>>insurance premium.
>>
>>Rob
>>
>Under US law, if a manufacturer has no place of business in the US,
>the importer is considered the manufacturer.
>
>Google for Foreign Tire Sales in New Jersey.
>
>--Andy Asberry--
>------Texas-----

so what you are hinting is that the country of manufacture needs a
legal system with no respect for US law and needs to be close enough
for mail order. the customer doing the mail order becomes the importer
no?

that makes Cuba the perfect location :-)

Alex G.[_3_]

November 4th 07, 01:25 PM

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message

> so what you are hinting is that the country of manufacture needs a
> legal system with no respect for US law and needs to be close enough
> for mail order. the customer doing the mail order becomes the importer
> no?
>
> that makes Cuba the perfect location :-)

Nothing wrong with Cuba, but why are you so anxious to export manufacturing?
Lawyers have screwed up the US legal system to the point where the guilty
party is always the one with the largest pockets. It's not about any real
liability any longer, it's about getting money. I'd love to see judges start
inflicting huge fines on the practitioners of these far reaching money
grabs, take away their licenses, lock the *******s up. Get back to a little
common sense.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

November 4th 07, 01:33 PM

"Alex G." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
>
>> so what you are hinting is that the country of manufacture needs a
>> legal system with no respect for US law and needs to be close enough
>> for mail order. the customer doing the mail order becomes the importer
>> no?
>>
>> that makes Cuba the perfect location :-)
>
> Nothing wrong with Cuba, but why are you so anxious to export
> manufacturing? Lawyers have screwed up the US legal system to the point
> where the guilty party is always the one with the largest pockets. It's
> not about any real liability any longer, it's about getting money. I'd
> love to see judges start inflicting huge fines on the practitioners of
> these far reaching money grabs, take away their licenses, lock the
> *******s up. Get back to a little common sense.

But then how would the Judge get re-elected if he doesn't have the money
from the lawyers to run his campaign?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Ron Natalie

November 4th 07, 02:56 PM

john smith wrote:

>> This is similar to how BD Maule managed Maule for years.
>
> Dave Blanton did the same thing in the 80's.

Or you can do Bede's liability dodge by going out of business before
delivering any product.

Cy Galley

November 4th 07, 03:03 PM

Here's why carbs are being discontinued...

http://arthuralanwolk.com/_wsn/page2.html

Our old friend Alan Wolk that almost wiped out AvWeb. Look at the other
suites he posts. He's doing more to reduce flying accidents than the FAA.
Of course, No Flying means No flying accidents.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jerry Wass" > wrote
>>
>> Maybe this will be the push that the gubermint needs to pass some kind of
>> protection for individual parts makers, similar to what was done for
>> small aircraft manufacturers some years back.
>>
>> Somewhere, somehow, I'm hopeful that the gubermint will do something to
>> make it less attractive to let everyone going sue-happy.
>>
>> Crazy, yes. I still hope it happens, though. It NEEDS to happen,
>> anyway.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
>
> I suspect that the "protection" for the aircraft manufacturers is the
> reason that the insurance for suppliers has gone up - they are next in
> line in the food chain.
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>

Alex G.[_3_]

November 4th 07, 05:06 PM

I blamed the lawyers before I even knew about this. Lawyers screw up
everything they touch, it's not about liability or fairness or common sense,
it about money. they should all hang, every single one of 'em. If you're a
lawyer and you're offended, that's fine with me, be offended---Then get a
real job you leech!

"Cy Galley" > wrote in message
news:ValXi.185405$Fc.162766@attbi_s21...
> Here's why carbs are being discontinued...
>
> http://arthuralanwolk.com/_wsn/page2.html
>
> Our old friend Alan Wolk that almost wiped out AvWeb. Look at the other
> suites he posts. He's doing more to reduce flying accidents than the FAA.
> Of course, No Flying means No flying accidents.
>
>
>
>

clare at snyder.on.ca

November 4th 07, 05:48 PM

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:10:58 +0900, Stealth Pilot
> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:36:25 -0500, Andy Asberry >
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:51:02 +0100, "Rob Turk"
> wrote:
>>
>>>"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
>>>news:u6UWi.434$lx.263@trndny05...
>>>> Peter Nielson
>>>> Product Support Mgr.
>>>> Precision Airmotive LLC
>>>> 14800 40th Ave NE
>>>> Marysville, WA 98271
>>>>
>>>> 360-651-8282
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Letter to Industry
>>>>
>>>> Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>>>
>>>> Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>>>> carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>>>> unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>>>> liability insurance for the product line.
>>>
>>>This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a trend
>>>then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft parts. Loss
>>>of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider outsourcing their
>>>production to a less litigious country? That would help reducing the
>>>insurance premium.
>>>
>>>Rob
>>>
>>Under US law, if a manufacturer has no place of business in the US,
>>the importer is considered the manufacturer.
>>
>>Google for Foreign Tire Sales in New Jersey.
>>
>>--Andy Asberry--
>>------Texas-----
>
>so what you are hinting is that the country of manufacture needs a
>legal system with no respect for US law and needs to be close enough
>for mail order. the customer doing the mail order becomes the importer
>no?
>
>that makes Cuba the perfect location :-)

Cuba? China!!
Everything else is made thare, and it appears impossible toassign
liability there.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Tri-Pacer

November 4th 07, 07:06 PM

>> Does this mean our engines will soon be on a low-carb diet??
>
> Fuel injected engines have zero carbs.
>

But that zero carb diet makes em lazy. Really hard to get them up and
running on a warm day------

Rob Turk[_2_]

November 4th 07, 07:43 PM

"Alex G." > wrote in message
...
>I blamed the lawyers before I even knew about this. Lawyers screw up
>everything they touch, it's not about liability or fairness or common
>sense, it about money. they should all hang, every single one of 'em. If
>you're a lawyer and you're offended, that's fine with me, be
>offended---Then get a real job you leech!
>

Question: What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean
Answer: I don't know, but it sounds like a good start!

Scott[_1_]

November 5th 07, 01:51 AM

But your wife WILL sue if you're gone because she will probably want
some security money. And if you're gone they won't be able to sue you.
Can't imagine them going after your wife since she would undoubtedly
say she had no knowledge of you even OWNING a plane! ;)

Scott

Ernest Christley wrote:

>>
>>
>
> Yes. Ford makes mine. But they don't know that I'm putting their
> Mexican built parts in a Japanese built rotary engine to fly an American
> built airplane. I'm warning my wife that if I die because of the
> injectors, that she shouldn't sue in case they counter sue against me
> for crimes against nature...or nationality...or good sense...or who
> knows what.

Alex G.[_3_]

November 5th 07, 02:11 AM

I don't think I would put a carb on without verifying things like bowl
screws were tight. I usually dissasemble and clean things like this before
use, and that's for a lawnmower or outboard. What was the mechanic doing? I
have witnessed Continental exhaust valves sticking, usually they were badly
carboned up- operator error? Who knows? I doubt the lawyers allowed anyone
with any mechanical experience on the jury, in fact I'd bet on it.

"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
...
> Alex G. wrote:
>> I blamed the lawyers before I even knew about this. Lawyers screw up
>> everything they touch, it's not about liability or fairness or common
>> sense, it about money. they should all hang, every single one of 'em. If
>> you're a lawyer and you're offended, that's fine with me, be
>> offended---Then get a real job you leech!
>>
>> "Cy Galley" > wrote in message
>> news:ValXi.185405$Fc.162766@attbi_s21...
>>> Here's why carbs are being discontinued...
>>>
>>> http://arthuralanwolk.com/_wsn/page2.html
>>>
>>> Our old friend Alan Wolk that almost wiped out AvWeb. Look at the other
>>> suites he posts. He's doing more to reduce flying accidents than the
>>> FAA. Of course, No Flying means No flying accidents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> You may be right, Alex, but after reading the article Cy referenced I have
> to ask myself if Precision really does deliver carbs with loose screws.
> If that truly is the case, then they deserve to be submarined. The article
> indicates that there is a history of problems that Precision and Teledyne
> couldn't be bothered to deal with. This sounds like the actions of a
> company with monopoly power, ie, "We don't need to fix it. Who else are
> they going to buy from?" Our liability laws are screwy beyond belief, but
> knowingly putting someone else's life at risk deserves severe punishment.

Cy Galley

November 5th 07, 02:55 AM

The article lists a sticking valve as one of the causes. This means the
plane and CARB had been in service for some time. How many A&Ps worked on
it since new. Why weren't they part of the suite? Maybe, just maybe,
Precision and Teledyne had deeper pockets than all the mechanics that missed
the loose screws!

"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
...
> Alex G. wrote:
>> I blamed the lawyers before I even knew about this. Lawyers screw up
>> everything they touch, it's not about liability or fairness or common
>> sense, it about money. they should all hang, every single one of 'em. If
>> you're a lawyer and you're offended, that's fine with me, be
>> offended---Then get a real job you leech!
>>
>> "Cy Galley" > wrote in message
>> news:ValXi.185405$Fc.162766@attbi_s21...
>>> Here's why carbs are being discontinued...
>>>
>>> http://arthuralanwolk.com/_wsn/page2.html
>>>
>>> Our old friend Alan Wolk that almost wiped out AvWeb. Look at the other
>>> suites he posts. He's doing more to reduce flying accidents than the
>>> FAA. Of course, No Flying means No flying accidents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> You may be right, Alex, but after reading the article Cy referenced I have
> to ask myself if Precision really does deliver carbs with loose screws.
> If that truly is the case, then they deserve to be submarined. The article
> indicates that there is a history of problems that Precision and Teledyne
> couldn't be bothered to deal with. This sounds like the actions of a
> company with monopoly power, ie, "We don't need to fix it. Who else are
> they going to buy from?" Our liability laws are screwy beyond belief, but
> knowingly putting someone else's life at risk deserves severe punishment.

Rob Turk[_2_]

November 5th 07, 07:06 AM

"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
...
>
> You may be right, Alex, but after reading the article Cy referenced I have
> to ask myself if Precision really does deliver carbs with loose screws.
> If that truly is the case, then they deserve to be submarined. The article
> indicates that there is a history of problems that Precision and Teledyne
> couldn't be bothered to deal with. This sounds like the actions of a
> company with monopoly power, ie, "We don't need to fix it. Who else are
> they going to buy from?" Our liability laws are screwy beyond belief, but
> knowingly putting someone else's life at risk deserves severe punishment.

I read it too. Keep in mind that this is on the winning lawyer's website,
not some independent observer. It's a commercial, not a report. This is what
they managed to convince a jury of, not necessarily what really went on in
day-to-day business. Mind you, if Precision had really done this then
thousands of aircraft engines would sooner or later fail due to this. Also,
thousands of owners and A&P's would have failed to notice the 'problem' for
years. And if this had been regular occurance do you think the FAA would
*not* have sent out an AD to check this? Highly unlikely.

The problem is with the lawyer system and the way it allows ridiculous
claims to be honored. With all due respect, I think $53.000.000 is totally
insane for a lose screw that could have been detected by proper maintenance.

Rob

Stealth Pilot[_2_]

November 5th 07, 10:31 AM

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:19:04 -0500, Ernest Christley
> wrote:

>Alex G. wrote:
>> I blamed the lawyers before I even knew about this. Lawyers screw up
>> everything they touch, it's not about liability or fairness or common sense,
>> it about money. they should all hang, every single one of 'em. If you're a
>> lawyer and you're offended, that's fine with me, be offended---Then get a
>> real job you leech!
>>
>> "Cy Galley" > wrote in message
>> news:ValXi.185405$Fc.162766@attbi_s21...
>>> Here's why carbs are being discontinued...
>>>
>>> http://arthuralanwolk.com/_wsn/page2.html
>>>
>>> Our old friend Alan Wolk that almost wiped out AvWeb. Look at the other
>>> suites he posts. He's doing more to reduce flying accidents than the FAA.
>>> Of course, No Flying means No flying accidents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>You may be right, Alex, but after reading the article Cy referenced I
>have to ask myself if Precision really does deliver carbs with loose
>screws. If that truly is the case, then they deserve to be submarined.
> The article indicates that there is a history of problems that
>Precision and Teledyne couldn't be bothered to deal with. This sounds
>like the actions of a company with monopoly power, ie, "We don't need to
>fix it. Who else are they going to buy from?" Our liability laws are
>screwy beyond belief, but knowingly putting someone else's life at risk
>deserves severe punishment.

ernie I'm in the middle of repairing one of their carbs and sorting
out a problem I inherited in the near new one I bought from a friend.
the carb I'm repairing simply wore out after 22 years of flawless
service.

what I've discovered in working on the carbs is that the locking tabs
do a shocking job of retaining the case screws. the problem is that
the design, the process and the materials are part of a certificated
aeronautical process which must be followed to the letter.

the other problem on the MA3 carby is that the case bolts are at best
optimistic. there should be 3 more bolts used to hold the two halves
of the carby together. common engineering sense doesnt come into play
here unless you are prepared to step out of the bounds of the
certification (which I am)

if you assemble the case just right with a soft gasket it all seals up
properly, but overtorque the bolts and you can warp the case. it then
leaks through the gasket right under the data plate.

the problem is that when "certification" was created as the path to
safe aviation there wasnt a lot of engineering savvy regarding what
made safe designs. the approach was to lock in any half good design
and not allow any changes in case something was introduced that broke
the magic.
adherence to "certification" as a process is well beyond it's use by
date. you can see in endeavours such as the automobile that the
technology of aviation is being left well behind by less regulated
environments. Engineering knowledge has advanced in the last century
to the point where it isnt difficult to produce competent designs in
most fields of endeavour.
Aviation is still locked into a 1930's quality assurance process on
the assumption that the sky will fall in if it ever ceases.
(harken back to the Inca sacrifices for another example of this style
of management)

It would be really good for aviation if the slick lawyers could
eradicate "certification" from the world of aviation and allow a more
normal engineering approach to development.

One of the modern downsides to "certification" is that it creates the
impression of perfection. people react mighty bitterly when something
is purchased with an air of perfection that proves to be just a piece
of old technology that fails them.

It would be interesting to find out why carby case bolts cant be
fitted with spring washers to stop them coming loose.
Of course even spring washers, although much better than the metal
tabs in use, are a poor relation to Nordlocks which I think is what
aircraft carbys should be secured with.

These guys are victims of the system. we need to change the system and
return aviation to the real world of engineering development.
Problem is that the FAA's of the world are convinced that the sky will
fall in if the religion of certification is ever overthrown.

The lawyers are just having a field day exposing our industry
stupidity.

Stealth Pilot
involved in aviation since 1971.

Stealth Pilot[_2_]

November 5th 07, 10:35 AM

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:11:36 -0400, "Alex G." > wrote:

>I don't think I would put a carb on without verifying things like bowl
>screws were tight. I usually dissasemble and clean things like this before
>use, and that's for a lawnmower or outboard. What was the mechanic doing? I
>have witnessed Continental exhaust valves sticking, usually they were badly
>carboned up- operator error? Who knows? I doubt the lawyers allowed anyone
>with any mechanical experience on the jury, in fact I'd bet on it.
>

in the certified world of aviation you are not permitted to
disassemble and clean a tagged device prior to installation.
those actions invalidate the approvals to fit the device.

thats the rub for these folks. they cant afford the elaborate process
needed to make any changes and they cant afford to continue as they
are. they have been screwed by the ineptitude of the system.

Stealth Pilot

Denny

November 5th 07, 01:17 PM

Being in business and having been sued (suits were all without merit
and were dismissed by the judge(s) in the end, but cost me many tens
of thousands of dollars to defend) I am no friend of trial lawyers...

Being an airplane owner that purchased a remanufactured carb (at a big
price) that when placed on the engine gushed fuel all over the floor
the instant the fuel valve was turned on (never even got around to
starting it) - sucks also...
So that carb was then removed and sent back by next day air for a
promised replacement the same way within 24 hours...

A week later we (me and AP mechanic) get back the same carb we shipped
out - by 24 hour fed ex on my nickel - OK, so they waited a week then
repaired it instead of replacing, their bad, but at least I have a
carb...
Carb installed... Still gushes fuel.. *&%(%$$#(@!
Now semi hostile fone calls

Carb boxed up and shipped back, again... More big time nickels...
Two and a half days later this time, it is back...
Carb reinstalled again - "Look it holds fuel, whoopeee." Test run
quickly, right inside the shop, runs ok...

So, they put the cowls back on... We taxi out for take off... Engine
suddenly starts to run rough... OH, OH, now it is slobbering fuel (at
least that is an improvement over 'gushing'...

Mechanic calls the "factory".... This is an outright HOSTILE fone call
- mechanic has to turn his back and hold out his arm to block me from
grabbing the fone... The factory manager indignantly states he
personally WATCHED the techs test that carb and there was nothing
wrong with it, period! After being chewed out by an old time mechanic
he agrees for us to open the carb without voiding the, by now useless,
warrantee and see what is going on...

Pop the top - ohhh lookee, the float is hanging all cattywumpus
because the hinge pin is halfway out... Golly, look here,,, The cotter
pin that secures the hinge pin is missing and there was no way for it
to get out of the float bowl... Old grizzled mechanic finds a new
cotter pin and sticks things back together... Gets out his home made
float gage and sets the float height (it was wrong!)... Puts the carb
back on the plane. It runs just fine and has for the past 3 years...

OK. alls well that ends well... What if the free floating hinge pin
decided to stay in place until I was fifty feet over the trees on take
off with my grandchildren in the back seats, then drop the float into
the bottom of the bowl and gush fuel all over the exhaust pipes?

denny

stol

November 5th 07, 01:38 PM

On Nov 5, 6:17 am, Denny > wrote:
> Being in business and having been sued (suits were all without merit
> and were dismissed by the judge(s) in the end, but cost me many tens
> of thousands of dollars to defend) I am no friend of trial lawyers...
>
> Being an airplane owner that purchased a remanufactured carb (at a big
> price) that when placed on the engine gushed fuel all over the floor
> the instant the fuel valve was turned on (never even got around to
> starting it) - sucks also...
> So that carb was then removed and sent back by next day air for a
> promised replacement the same way within 24 hours...
>
> A week later we (me and AP mechanic) get back the same carb we shipped
> out - by 24 hour fed ex on my nickel - OK, so they waited a week then
> repaired it instead of replacing, their bad, but at least I have a
> carb...
> Carb installed... Still gushes fuel.. *&%(%$$#(@!
> Now semi hostile fone calls
>
> Carb boxed up and shipped back, again... More big time nickels...
> Two and a half days later this time, it is back...
> Carb reinstalled again - "Look it holds fuel, whoopeee." Test run
> quickly, right inside the shop, runs ok...
>
> So, they put the cowls back on... We taxi out for take off... Engine
> suddenly starts to run rough... OH, OH, now it is slobbering fuel (at
> least that is an improvement over 'gushing'...
>
> Mechanic calls the "factory".... This is an outright HOSTILE fone call
> - mechanic has to turn his back and hold out his arm to block me from
> grabbing the fone... The factory manager indignantly states he
> personally WATCHED the techs test that carb and there was nothing
> wrong with it, period! After being chewed out by an old time mechanic
> he agrees for us to open the carb without voiding the, by now useless,
> warrantee and see what is going on...
>
> Pop the top - ohhh lookee, the float is hanging all cattywumpus
> because the hinge pin is halfway out... Golly, look here,,, The cotter
> pin that secures the hinge pin is missing and there was no way for it
> to get out of the float bowl... Old grizzled mechanic finds a new
> cotter pin and sticks things back together... Gets out his home made
> float gage and sets the float height (it was wrong!)... Puts the carb
> back on the plane. It runs just fine and has for the past 3 years...
>
> OK. alls well that ends well... What if the free floating hinge pin
> decided to stay in place until I was fifty feet over the trees on take
> off with my grandchildren in the back seats, then drop the float into
> the bottom of the bowl and gush fuel all over the exhaust pipes?
>
> denny

Rule number one.... NEVER trust a yellow tagged item. They can and
will kill ya..

Gig 601XL Builder

November 5th 07, 02:10 PM

Rob Turk wrote:

> This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a
> trend then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft
> parts. Loss of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider
> outsourcing their production to a less litigious country? That would
> help reducing the insurance premium.
>
> Rob

If the company has assets in the US it can be sued in the US. Maybe becoming
the less litigious country would be a better idea.

four-oh-four

November 5th 07, 04:50 PM

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:58:50 GMT, Jerry Springer >
wrote:

Instead of whining about lawyers, liability and the big problems with
our countries liability issue, I'm more interested in the basics. Such
as, do other manufacturers make STC'd parts for the
Precision/facet/Marvel dribbler carbs? Such as Kelly? Or did they buy
the parts from Precision and then overhaul carbs using those? If stc'd
parts are made elsewhere, then we should be okay keeping the current
crop of carbs flying. Precision didn't mention if they would continue
to sell carbs to the homebuilt/experimental market. But I suspect they
won't. Not sure about their Silverhawk add-on fuel injection system.
Be interesting to see if they continue to maket the non-certified
stuff. I've had mixed results from Precision. I flew to Lakeland a few
years ago in my homebuilt with a Marvel carb on my lyc. 160. My carb
had a problem, and I bought a rebuilt one directly from Precision,
having it shipped overnight to my hotel. I installed it in the
emergency repair area, then flew back home with it. Had mixture
problems all the way home. Once I got there, I found the case half
bolts were loose, never tightened correctly. And the carb was leaking
fuel along the seam. I was pretty angry they'd send me something that
messed up, so I raised hell with them, and they shipped me a brand new
one. I found out later, they farm out the overhaul to a foriegn
country. So goes the crappy job. Plus the first carb they sent me
looked ancient, an old Marvel one, and I suspect the internal threads
were worn out. That being the reason it worked loose. At least I got a
new one out of them before they stopped production. I think they
brought on some of their problems themselves. But I don't know of
anyone that manufactures the carb body, and that can wear out. So if
someone has an old carb body that has worn out threads. or is cracked,
they'll be looking for a used carb somewhere else.
RAM

>Peter Nielson
>Product Support Mgr.
>Precision Airmotive LLC
>14800 40th Ave NE
>Marysville, WA 98271
>
>360-651-8282
>
>Subject: Letter to Industry
>
>Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>
>Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
>its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
>carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
>flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
>carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
>as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
>a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
>carburetors speaks for itself.
>
>Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
>dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
>sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
>absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
>whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
>Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
>efforts have been unsuccessful.
>
>This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
>design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
>obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
>While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
>well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
>independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
>costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
>small business such as Precision.
>
>Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
>left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
>carburetor product line.
>
>We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
>industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
>to provide future support for this product line. There is a
>substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
>distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
>short time.

Ted Striker

November 5th 07, 05:09 PM

Instead ofdiscussing lawyers, liability and the big problems with
our countries liability issue, I'm more interested in the basics. Such
as, do other manufacturers make STC'd parts for the
Precision/facet/Marvel dribbler carbs? Such as Kelly? Or did they buy
the parts from Precision and then overhaul carbs using those? If stc'd
parts are made elsewhere, then we should be okay keeping the current
crop of carbs flying. Precision didn't mention if they would continue
to sell carbs to the homebuilt/experimental market. But I suspect they
won't. Not sure about their Silverhawk add-on fuel injection system.
Be interesting to see if they continue to maket the non-certified
stuff. I've had mixed results from Precision. I flew to Lakeland a few
years ago in my homebuilt with a Marvel carb on my lyc. 160. My carb
had a problem, and I bought a rebuilt one directly from Precision,
having it shipped overnight to my hotel. I installed it in the
emergency repair area, then flew back home with it. Had mixture
problems all the way home. Once I got there, I found the case half
bolts were loose, never tightened correctly. And the carb was leaking
fuel along the seam. I was pretty angry they'd send me something that
messed up, so I raised hell with them, and they shipped me a brand new
one. I found out later, they farm out the overhaul to a foriegn
country. So goes the crappy job. Plus the first carb they sent me
looked ancient, an old Marvel one, and I suspect the internal threads
were worn out. That being the reason it worked loose. At least I got a
new one out of them before they stopped production. I think they
brought on some of their problems themselves. But I don't know of
anyone that manufactures the carb body, and that can wear out. So if
someone has an old carb body that has worn out threads. or is cracked,
they'll be looking for a used carb somewhere else.
RAM

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:58:50 GMT, Jerry Springer >
wrote:

>Peter Nielson
>Product Support Mgr.
>Precision Airmotive LLC
>14800 40th Ave NE
>Marysville, WA 98271
>
>360-651-8282
>
>Subject: Letter to Industry
>
>Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>
>Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
>its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
>carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
>flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
>carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
>as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
>a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
>carburetors speaks for itself.
>
>Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
>dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
>sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
>absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
>whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
>Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
>efforts have been unsuccessful.
>
>This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
>design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
>obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
>While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
>well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
>independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
>costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
>small business such as Precision.
>
>Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
>left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
>carburetor product line.
>
>We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
>industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
>to provide future support for this product line. There is a
>substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
>distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
>short time.

Cy Galley

November 6th 07, 03:43 AM

My question is Why oh Why didn't you check the carb screws before to put in
on your plane?

--
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A 46 Year Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
New address -
EAA Sport Pilot

"four-oh-four" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:58:50 GMT, Jerry Springer >
> wrote:
>
> Instead of whining about lawyers, liability and the big problems with
> our countries liability issue, I'm more interested in the basics. Such
> as, do other manufacturers make STC'd parts for the
> Precision/facet/Marvel dribbler carbs? Such as Kelly? Or did they buy
> the parts from Precision and then overhaul carbs using those? If stc'd
> parts are made elsewhere, then we should be okay keeping the current
> crop of carbs flying. Precision didn't mention if they would continue
> to sell carbs to the homebuilt/experimental market. But I suspect they
> won't. Not sure about their Silverhawk add-on fuel injection system.
> Be interesting to see if they continue to maket the non-certified
> stuff. I've had mixed results from Precision. I flew to Lakeland a few
> years ago in my homebuilt with a Marvel carb on my lyc. 160. My carb
> had a problem, and I bought a rebuilt one directly from Precision,
> having it shipped overnight to my hotel. I installed it in the
> emergency repair area, then flew back home with it. Had mixture
> problems all the way home. Once I got there, I found the case half
> bolts were loose, never tightened correctly. And the carb was leaking
> fuel along the seam. I was pretty angry they'd send me something that
> messed up, so I raised hell with them, and they shipped me a brand new
> one. I found out later, they farm out the overhaul to a foriegn
> country. So goes the crappy job. Plus the first carb they sent me
> looked ancient, an old Marvel one, and I suspect the internal threads
> were worn out. That being the reason it worked loose. At least I got a
> new one out of them before they stopped production. I think they
> brought on some of their problems themselves. But I don't know of
> anyone that manufactures the carb body, and that can wear out. So if
> someone has an old carb body that has worn out threads. or is cracked,
> they'll be looking for a used carb somewhere else.
> RAM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Peter Nielson
>>Product Support Mgr.
>>Precision Airmotive LLC
>>14800 40th Ave NE
>>Marysville, WA 98271
>>
>>360-651-8282
>>
>>Subject: Letter to Industry
>>
>>Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.
>>
>>Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
>>carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
>>unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
>>liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
>>its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
>>carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
>>flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
>>carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
>>as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
>>a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
>>carburetors speaks for itself.
>>
>>Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
>>dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
>>sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
>>absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
>>whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
>>Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
>>efforts have been unsuccessful.
>>
>>This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
>>design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
>>obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
>>While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
>>well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
>>independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
>>costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
>>small business such as Precision.
>>
>>Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
>>left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
>>carburetor product line.
>>
>>We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
>>industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
>>to provide future support for this product line. There is a
>>substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
>>distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
>>short time.
>

four-oh-four

November 6th 07, 02:22 PM

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:43:50 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
wrote:

>My question is Why oh Why didn't you check the carb screws before to put in
>on your plane?

You can't. The screws have bend up tabs that are bent up to keep the
hex head screws from backing out. The only way you would know the case
was loose would be if it were so loose you could see the gap in the
seam, or bend the tabs down and then tighten the screws, and then bend
the tabs back up. But who would think that would be necessary with a
newly rebuilt carb shipped from the manufacturer? I think they did
tighten the screws, but the threads were worn out inside the carb
body, the screw threads slipped. Wasn't my fault! It was carb
manufacturers for shipping such a sloppy piece of crap.

RST Engineering

November 6th 07, 04:01 PM

Oh, come on. If the manufacturer did really "tighten" the bolts, then they
would have had to "slip" an entire thread on every pitch. Fixed threads
don't "slip" if they are worn, they jump threads. If the carb body was this
worn, the "tightening" would have completely stripped every pitch and they
wouldn't have been able to torque the bolts down.

BTW, a screw has a slot, a cross, or a keyway. A bolt has a hex head.

Me? I use the hex bolts but I replace them with drilled head bolts and use
both the bendmeup tabs and safety wire as well. There is nothing in the
manual that says you can't ADD safety, you just can't do less.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford

"four-oh-four" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:43:50 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
> wrote:
>
>>My question is Why oh Why didn't you check the carb screws before to put
>>in
>>on your plane?
>
>
> You can't. The screws have bend up tabs that are bent up to keep the
> hex head screws from backing out. The only way you would know the case
> was loose would be if it were so loose you could see the gap in the
> seam, or bend the tabs down and then tighten the screws, and then bend
> the tabs back up. But who would think that would be necessary with a
> newly rebuilt carb shipped from the manufacturer? I think they did
> tighten the screws, but the threads were worn out inside the carb
> body, the screw threads slipped. Wasn't my fault! It was carb
> manufacturers for shipping such a sloppy piece of crap.

four-oh-four

November 6th 07, 06:09 PM

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:01:07 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>Oh, come on. If the manufacturer did really "tighten" the bolts, then they
>would have had to "slip" an entire thread on every pitch. Fixed threads
>don't "slip" if they are worn, they jump threads. If the carb body was this
>worn, the "tightening" would have completely stripped every pitch and they
>wouldn't have been able to torque the bolts down.
>
>BTW, a screw has a slot, a cross, or a keyway. A bolt has a hex head.
>
>Me? I use the hex bolts but I replace them with drilled head bolts and use
>both the bendmeup tabs and safety wire as well. There is nothing in the
>manual that says you can't ADD safety, you just can't do less.
>
>Jim

If the threads didn't slip, then they were never torqued correctly.
And the bolts were the type that had hex heads, and also a phillips
slot for a screw driver. Not sure how to label those. And who receives
a new carb from the manufacturer and disconnects all saftey wire/tabs
to check for tightness of all screws/bolts? virtually no one you
idiot! To suggest such a procedure is ridiculous. But there are always
those who will defend the manufacturer and blame the pilot/mechanic
regardless. You seem to fit nicely into that catagory. I'm the one who
flew the plane home with a leaking, brand new carb, not you mister
know-it-all.

four-oh-four

November 6th 07, 06:18 PM

I wrote Precision the following letter, and got back a reply.

I would like to know if your company will still manufacture the
SilverHawk
fuel injection systems? And what about carburetors for experimental
aircraft, are they to be discontinued also? And companies like Kelly,
that
rebuild your carbs, will they be able to do so, or was Precision the
only
source of approved parts for the float carburetors? Are there other
companies that manufacture STC'd parts for your carbs?

Their reply,
We are continuing to sell all of our fuel injection products. We are
not
able to supply any carburetors or components for any purpose.
Precision has
no affiliation with Kelly or any other aftermarket PMA carburetor
parts
manufacturers.

From what they said, it seems manufacturers like Kelly Aerospace do
indeed manufacture parts for the carbs, so about the only thing that
won't be available are the actual carb bodies. And there should be
enough of those around to last the G/A fleet for a long time. I
suspect parts prices will go up though. The key words in their reply
was "other aftermarket PMA" which means other companies can
manufactures replacement parts. That fact should keep us flying.

cavelamb himself[_4_]

November 6th 07, 07:22 PM

four-oh-four wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:01:07 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Oh, come on. If the manufacturer did really "tighten" the bolts, then they
>>would have had to "slip" an entire thread on every pitch. Fixed threads
>>don't "slip" if they are worn, they jump threads. If the carb body was this
>>worn, the "tightening" would have completely stripped every pitch and they
>>wouldn't have been able to torque the bolts down.
>>
>>BTW, a screw has a slot, a cross, or a keyway. A bolt has a hex head.
>>
>>Me? I use the hex bolts but I replace them with drilled head bolts and use
>>both the bendmeup tabs and safety wire as well. There is nothing in the
>>manual that says you can't ADD safety, you just can't do less.
>>
>>Jim
>
>
> If the threads didn't slip, then they were never torqued correctly.
> And the bolts were the type that had hex heads, and also a phillips
> slot for a screw driver. Not sure how to label those. And who receives
> a new carb from the manufacturer and disconnects all saftey wire/tabs
> to check for tightness of all screws/bolts? virtually no one you
> idiot! To suggest such a procedure is ridiculous. But there are always
> those who will defend the manufacturer and blame the pilot/mechanic
> regardless. You seem to fit nicely into that catagory. I'm the one who
> flew the plane home with a leaking, brand new carb, not you mister
> know-it-all.

Oh my golly...

Jim tried to give you some good advice.

I guess I must be an idiot too, because I have no problem opening up a
new carb for inspection.

Mister Know-It-All, huh?
I guess that could fit a whole bunch of us who know how to care for a
flying machine.

But, oh no, not you.
You don't know squat.
And to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Here he is, gents.
This is the guy that makes everybody look bad.

Sloppy workmanship.
Dangerous pilot.
Arrogant mouth.
Won't take instruction and can't take criticism.

404 - Document not found...
Seems appropriate to me.

Very Sincerely,

Richard Lamb

Charles Vincent

November 6th 07, 09:27 PM

RST Engineering wrote:
> Oh, come on. If the manufacturer did really "tighten" the bolts, then they
> would have had to "slip" an entire thread on every pitch. Fixed threads
> don't "slip" if they are worn, they jump threads. If the carb body was this
> worn, the "tightening" would have completely stripped every pitch and they
> wouldn't have been able to torque the bolts down.
>
> BTW, a screw has a slot, a cross, or a keyway. A bolt has a hex head.
>
> Me? I use the hex bolts but I replace them with drilled head bolts and use
> both the bendmeup tabs and safety wire as well. There is nothing in the
> manual that says you can't ADD safety, you just can't do less.
>
> Jim
>

Damn, I got ripped off, my machine supply house just sold me a couple
pounds of 1/2" SAE hex head cap screws. Must be some kind of government
conspiracy though, as I also have a bucket of AN21 "Bolts" out here in
the shop that obviously aren't bolts no matter what the AN spec calls
them. What else have I been lied to about? Looking in the bin under my
bench now...Oh my god, I really am screwed now -- I have bins full of
NAS stuff, all labeled "bolts" that can't possibly be bolts. At least
my Torx screws are authentic.

Charles

four-oh-four

November 6th 07, 11:47 PM

F.U. bud, what good advise? None I saw.
>
>Oh my golly...
>
>Jim tried to give you some good advice.
>
>I guess I must be an idiot too, because I have no problem opening up a
>new carb for inspection.
>
>Mister Know-It-All, huh?
>I guess that could fit a whole bunch of us who know how to care for a
>flying machine.
>
>But, oh no, not you.
>You don't know squat.
>And to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
>
>Here he is, gents.
>This is the guy that makes everybody look bad.
>
>Sloppy workmanship.
>Dangerous pilot.
>Arrogant mouth.
>Won't take instruction and can't take criticism.
>
>404 - Document not found...
>Seems appropriate to me.
>
>
>Very Sincerely,
>
>Richard Lamb

Kyle Boatright

November 8th 07, 03:05 AM

"four-oh-four" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:01:07 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
>>Oh, come on. If the manufacturer did really "tighten" the bolts, then
>>they
>>would have had to "slip" an entire thread on every pitch. Fixed threads
>>don't "slip" if they are worn, they jump threads. If the carb body was
>>this
>>worn, the "tightening" would have completely stripped every pitch and they
>>wouldn't have been able to torque the bolts down.
>>
>>BTW, a screw has a slot, a cross, or a keyway. A bolt has a hex head.
>>
>>Me? I use the hex bolts but I replace them with drilled head bolts and
>>use
>>both the bendmeup tabs and safety wire as well. There is nothing in the
>>manual that says you can't ADD safety, you just can't do less.
>>
>>Jim
>
> If the threads didn't slip, then they were never torqued correctly.
> And the bolts were the type that had hex heads, and also a phillips
> slot for a screw driver. Not sure how to label those. And who receives
> a new carb from the manufacturer and disconnects all saftey wire/tabs
> to check for tightness of all screws/bolts? virtually no one you
> idiot! To suggest such a procedure is ridiculous. But there are always
> those who will defend the manufacturer and blame the pilot/mechanic
> regardless. You seem to fit nicely into that catagory. I'm the one who
> flew the plane home with a leaking, brand new carb, not you mister
> know-it-all.

You don't need to disconnect the safety devices to check for tightness.
First, you wiggle the bowl. If it wiggles or twists, the bolts are loose.
Then, you put a screwdriver on the screws. If they wiggle back and forth
against the safety tab (or if they have any in/out slop indicating a jumped
thread), *then* you remove the safety tab and figure out why the screws are
loose.

Alternately, you could skip all those steps and save enough time to make a
handful of obnoxious posts on usenet.

KB