Two questions on VFR flight following into an uncontrolled field

[Tman]

Appreciate this groups insight :)...

When getting VFR advisories into an uncontrolled field, when and how ought
one transition to the CTAF. Currently, I tune in and monitor the CTAF on
COM2, and if ATC doesn't tell me "squawk VFR, freq change approved" by about
5 miles out, i get antsy and cancel advisories. The theory is that I really
want to be focused on other traffic on the CTAF, and the advisories aren't
always that helpful "numerous targets in the pattern...". Also, there is
sometimes a lot of chatter on the ATC frequency, making it easy to miss a
CTAF transmission even when monitoring it. Should I just cancel advisories
proactively 10 miles or so out so that Ican focus totally on the CTAF? Or
should i really let ATC take the first step, with the assumption that they
know best their abilitiy to provide quality advisories, and they'll drop me
over to the CTAF at the most optimal time. I'd be interested in the
different opinions on this... What if i only had one COMM (like the C152 I
on occassion fly).

Second question. Check out http://skyvector.com/#29-15-3-2383-2408, i was
flying into MGJ (Orange County) at 6500 from the E, getting advisories from
NY Approach. Actually the flight from the Ebrought me right over the SWF
(Stewart) Class D airspace, which has a 3000 ceiling. So I was in my VFR
descent actually right over Stewart, being careful and then some not to bust
the 3000 ceiling until i was well clear of the Class D, which gave me all of
2 miles to get from about 3500 to the 1400 TPA at Orange County. Rwy 3 was
active at Orange County, so i overflew the field, went about 1-2 miles to
the West, descended aggressively and entered the left downind on a 45, still
descending 1200 FPM right up to the downwind turn. Somewhere right over the
field, NY cancelled and i turned over to the CTAF.

OK, on reflection this did not strike me as the safest way to do things.
For one, the aggressive descent just outside of the downwind, in a field
that has a fair amount of turbine traffic flying (wider and higher) patterns
right where i was descending through. For another, i would have rather been
at TPA a fair bit out, so that i could have the benefit of monitoring the
pattern at eye level. Ideas on how to do this better? Some thoughts that
come to mind are:

* Be more patient, go to the west even more, say 4-5 miles, give it time for
a gentler descent, and enter on the 45 at the TPA.
* Be more patient, and navigate to the N or S to avoid Stewart's Class D
altogether.
* Could I ask NY approach to talk to Stewart tower and see if i can get
permission to descend through Stewart's Class D. Might they do it and would
that be legal anyways -- or would i have to talk directly to Stewart tower?
* Or would i just ask to cancel flight following in the vicinity of Stewart,
talk to their tower, tell them the deal and ask to descend through their
Class D enroute to MGJ?

There's large turbine traffic low all over the place here...

Any other ideas?

Thanks all! Tman...

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:25:38 -0500, "Tman" <N/A> wrote:

> Should I just cancel advisories
>proactively 10 miles or so out so that Ican focus totally on the CTAF?

That's what I usually do. Many good controllers will alert you to
targets in your destination's environment, if they can seen them, as
you end advisories.

>
>Second question. Check out http://skyvector.com/#29-15-3-2383-2408, i was
>flying into MGJ (Orange County) at 6500 from the E, getting advisories from
>NY Approach. Actually the flight from the Ebrought me right over the SWF
>(Stewart) Class D airspace, which has a 3000 ceiling. So I was in my VFR
>descent actually right over Stewart, being careful and then some not to bust
>the 3000 ceiling until i was well clear of the Class D, which gave me all of
>2 miles to get from about 3500 to the 1400 TPA at Orange County. Rwy 3 was
>active at Orange County, so i overflew the field, went about 1-2 miles to
>the West, descended aggressively and entered the left downind on a 45, still
>descending 1200 FPM right up to the downwind turn. Somewhere right over the
>field, NY cancelled and i turned over to the CTAF.
>
> Ideas on how to do this better? Some thoughts that
>come to mind are:

I've flown VFR into MGJ from the same direction.

I simply stayed a tick north of Stewart so I could descend earlier and
arrive at the traffic pattern entry point at pattern altitude without
extra maneuvering.

[[email protected]]

Tman <N/A> wrote:
> Appreciate this groups insight :)...

> When getting VFR advisories into an uncontrolled field, when and how ought
> one transition to the CTAF. Currently, I tune in and monitor the CTAF on
> COM2, and if ATC doesn't tell me "squawk VFR, freq change approved" by about
> 5 miles out, i get antsy and cancel advisories. The theory is that I really
> want to be focused on other traffic on the CTAF, and the advisories aren't
> always that helpful "numerous targets in the pattern...". Also, there is
> sometimes a lot of chatter on the ATC frequency, making it easy to miss a
> CTAF transmission even when monitoring it. Should I just cancel advisories
> proactively 10 miles or so out so that Ican focus totally on the CTAF? Or
> should i really let ATC take the first step, with the assumption that they
> know best their abilitiy to provide quality advisories, and they'll drop me
> over to the CTAF at the most optimal time. I'd be interested in the
> different opinions on this... What if i only had one COMM (like the C152 I
> on occassion fly).

Around here the procedure it to advise ATC that you have the airport in
sight at the point where you wish to terminate flight following.

I would question the value of any CTAF chatter from farther than 5 miles
out in this situation unless you have a really fast airplane.

> Second question. Check out http://skyvector.com/#29-15-3-2383-2408, i was
> flying into MGJ (Orange County) at 6500 from the E, getting advisories from
> NY Approach. Actually the flight from the Ebrought me right over the SWF
> (Stewart) Class D airspace, which has a 3000 ceiling. So I was in my VFR
> descent actually right over Stewart, being careful and then some not to bust
> the 3000 ceiling until i was well clear of the Class D, which gave me all of
> 2 miles to get from about 3500 to the 1400 TPA at Orange County. Rwy 3 was
> active at Orange County, so i overflew the field, went about 1-2 miles to
> the West, descended aggressively and entered the left downind on a 45, still
> descending 1200 FPM right up to the downwind turn. Somewhere right over the
> field, NY cancelled and i turned over to the CTAF.
>
> OK, on reflection this did not strike me as the safest way to do things.
> For one, the aggressive descent just outside of the downwind, in a field
> that has a fair amount of turbine traffic flying (wider and higher) patterns
> right where i was descending through. For another, i would have rather been
> at TPA a fair bit out, so that i could have the benefit of monitoring the
> pattern at eye level. Ideas on how to do this better? Some thoughts that
> come to mind are:

> * Be more patient, go to the west even more, say 4-5 miles, give it time for
> a gentler descent, and enter on the 45 at the TPA.
> * Be more patient, and navigate to the N or S to avoid Stewart's Class D
> altogether.
> * Could I ask NY approach to talk to Stewart tower and see if i can get
> permission to descend through Stewart's Class D. Might they do it and would
> that be legal anyways -- or would i have to talk directly to Stewart tower?
> * Or would i just ask to cancel flight following in the vicinity of Stewart,
> talk to their tower, tell them the deal and ask to descend through their
> Class D enroute to MGJ?

> There's large turbine traffic low all over the place here...

> Any other ideas?

Since you are talking to ATC, unless told to maintain clearance or
altitude, there is no reason you can't fly through class D or C
airspace or even B if told cleared through the Bravo.

If you are nervous about doing it, simply tell ATC you want to begin
decent to whatever altitude and do what they say.

They may tell you to switch to tower or keep you all the way, that's
their call.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Tman]

>
> Since you are talking to ATC, unless told to maintain clearance or
> altitude, there is no reason you can't fly through class D or C
> airspace or even B if told cleared through the Bravo.
>

Really AIM 3.2.5 says that i need to have two-way radio contact with the
"ATC facility providing ATC services", which in this case i think means i
need to be talking to Stewart Tower, not NY Approach (?).


T

[news.verizon.net[_2_]]

I fly into a similar situation going into Brookhaven,NY. I talk to NY
approach and fly over Islip and they will will tell me to descend while over
the C space so as to set up for the landing. I believe they are working
with the tower people at Islip to work this all out, it happens behind the
scenes to me.


"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
> >
>> Since you are talking to ATC, unless told to maintain clearance or
>> altitude, there is no reason you can't fly through class D or C
>> airspace or even B if told cleared through the Bravo.
>>
>
> Really AIM 3.2.5 says that i need to have two-way radio contact with the
> "ATC facility providing ATC services", which in this case i think means i
> need to be talking to Stewart Tower, not NY Approach (?).
>
>
> T
>
>

[Bob Gardner]

This is from the controller's handbook:

-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you
allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of
jurisdiction.
b. Before you issue control instructions directly or relay through another
source to an aircraft which is within another controller's area of
jurisdiction that will change that aircraft's heading, route, speed, or
altitude, ensure that coordination has been accomplished with each of the
controllers listed below whose area of jurisdiction is affected by those
instructions unless otherwise specified by a letter of agreement or a
facility directive:
1. The controller within whose area of jurisdiction the control
instructions will be issued.
2. The controller receiving the transfer of control.
3. Any intervening controller(s) through whose area of jurisdiction the
aircraft will pass.

I'm sure that Steve will pipe up if this is not the correct reference.
Bottom line is that if you are receiving radar services, it is the
controller's responsibility to coordinate with Stewart.

Bob Gardner

"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
> Appreciate this groups insight :)...
>
> When getting VFR advisories into an uncontrolled field, when and how ought
> one transition to the CTAF. Currently, I tune in and monitor the CTAF on
> COM2, and if ATC doesn't tell me "squawk VFR, freq change approved" by
> about 5 miles out, i get antsy and cancel advisories. The theory is that
> I really want to be focused on other traffic on the CTAF, and the
> advisories aren't always that helpful "numerous targets in the
> pattern...". Also, there is sometimes a lot of chatter on the ATC
> frequency, making it easy to miss a CTAF transmission even when monitoring
> it. Should I just cancel advisories proactively 10 miles or so out so
> that Ican focus totally on the CTAF? Or should i really let ATC take the
> first step, with the assumption that they know best their abilitiy to
> provide quality advisories, and they'll drop me over to the CTAF at the
> most optimal time. I'd be interested in the different opinions on this...
> What if i only had one COMM (like the C152 I on occassion fly).
>
> Second question. Check out http://skyvector.com/#29-15-3-2383-2408, i was
> flying into MGJ (Orange County) at 6500 from the E, getting advisories
> from NY Approach. Actually the flight from the Ebrought me right over the
> SWF (Stewart) Class D airspace, which has a 3000 ceiling. So I was in my
> VFR descent actually right over Stewart, being careful and then some not
> to bust the 3000 ceiling until i was well clear of the Class D, which gave
> me all of 2 miles to get from about 3500 to the 1400 TPA at Orange County.
> Rwy 3 was active at Orange County, so i overflew the field, went about 1-2
> miles to the West, descended aggressively and entered the left downind on
> a 45, still descending 1200 FPM right up to the downwind turn. Somewhere
> right over the field, NY cancelled and i turned over to the CTAF.
>
> OK, on reflection this did not strike me as the safest way to do things.
> For one, the aggressive descent just outside of the downwind, in a field
> that has a fair amount of turbine traffic flying (wider and higher)
> patterns right where i was descending through. For another, i would have
> rather been at TPA a fair bit out, so that i could have the benefit of
> monitoring the pattern at eye level. Ideas on how to do this better?
> Some thoughts that come to mind are:
>
> * Be more patient, go to the west even more, say 4-5 miles, give it time
> for a gentler descent, and enter on the 45 at the TPA.
> * Be more patient, and navigate to the N or S to avoid Stewart's Class D
> altogether.
> * Could I ask NY approach to talk to Stewart tower and see if i can get
> permission to descend through Stewart's Class D. Might they do it and
> would that be legal anyways -- or would i have to talk directly to Stewart
> tower?
> * Or would i just ask to cancel flight following in the vicinity of
> Stewart, talk to their tower, tell them the deal and ask to descend
> through their Class D enroute to MGJ?
>
> There's large turbine traffic low all over the place here...
>
> Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks all! Tman...
>
>
>

[Bob Gardner]

I was too quick with the Send button...

It's almost a sure thing that the top 500 feet of Stewart's airspace has
been released to the overlying approach control by Letter of Agreement, so
SWF controllers wouldn't even be interested in you unless you transitioned
lower than that. In any event "Am I cleared through Stewart's airspace?"
would clear up any uncertainty.

Bob Gardner

"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
> Appreciate this groups insight :)...
>
> When getting VFR advisories into an uncontrolled field, when and how ought
> one transition to the CTAF. Currently, I tune in and monitor the CTAF on
> COM2, and if ATC doesn't tell me "squawk VFR, freq change approved" by
> about 5 miles out, i get antsy and cancel advisories. The theory is that
> I really want to be focused on other traffic on the CTAF, and the
> advisories aren't always that helpful "numerous targets in the
> pattern...". Also, there is sometimes a lot of chatter on the ATC
> frequency, making it easy to miss a CTAF transmission even when monitoring
> it. Should I just cancel advisories proactively 10 miles or so out so
> that Ican focus totally on the CTAF? Or should i really let ATC take the
> first step, with the assumption that they know best their abilitiy to
> provide quality advisories, and they'll drop me over to the CTAF at the
> most optimal time. I'd be interested in the different opinions on this...
> What if i only had one COMM (like the C152 I on occassion fly).
>
> Second question. Check out http://skyvector.com/#29-15-3-2383-2408, i was
> flying into MGJ (Orange County) at 6500 from the E, getting advisories
> from NY Approach. Actually the flight from the Ebrought me right over the
> SWF (Stewart) Class D airspace, which has a 3000 ceiling. So I was in my
> VFR descent actually right over Stewart, being careful and then some not
> to bust the 3000 ceiling until i was well clear of the Class D, which gave
> me all of 2 miles to get from about 3500 to the 1400 TPA at Orange County.
> Rwy 3 was active at Orange County, so i overflew the field, went about 1-2
> miles to the West, descended aggressively and entered the left downind on
> a 45, still descending 1200 FPM right up to the downwind turn. Somewhere
> right over the field, NY cancelled and i turned over to the CTAF.
>
> OK, on reflection this did not strike me as the safest way to do things.
> For one, the aggressive descent just outside of the downwind, in a field
> that has a fair amount of turbine traffic flying (wider and higher)
> patterns right where i was descending through. For another, i would have
> rather been at TPA a fair bit out, so that i could have the benefit of
> monitoring the pattern at eye level. Ideas on how to do this better?
> Some thoughts that come to mind are:
>
> * Be more patient, go to the west even more, say 4-5 miles, give it time
> for a gentler descent, and enter on the 45 at the TPA.
> * Be more patient, and navigate to the N or S to avoid Stewart's Class D
> altogether.
> * Could I ask NY approach to talk to Stewart tower and see if i can get
> permission to descend through Stewart's Class D. Might they do it and
> would that be legal anyways -- or would i have to talk directly to Stewart
> tower?
> * Or would i just ask to cancel flight following in the vicinity of
> Stewart, talk to their tower, tell them the deal and ask to descend
> through their Class D enroute to MGJ?
>
> There's large turbine traffic low all over the place here...
>
> Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks all! Tman...
>
>
>

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:35:08 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>Talking to a radar controller absolutely meets the requirement for
>transiting Class D airspace. FAA Order 7110.65 requires the radar
>controller to coordinate with the control tower for transit authorization
>when he is providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will
>enter a Class D surface area. The pilot is not expected to obtain his own
>authorization when in contact with a radar facility.

Thanks, Steven.

I've always either been handed to the tower, or been told to remain
clear. Sooo, I understood it as... <G> The stuff you cited gives
me a better understanding of what's really happening.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tman" <N/A> wrote in message
...
>
> 91.129.c.1 ... "must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC
> facility providing air traffic services prior to entering"...
> OK does that include NY approach in addition to the (obvious) Stewart
> Tower as the facility providing air traffic services in the Stewart Class
> D airspace?
>

FAR 91.129 begins with, "Unless otherwise authorized..." The radar
controller is required to coordinate the transit of Class D airspace when
providing radar services.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Stop playing with your radios and look out the window.


Bertie

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> It's almost a sure thing that the top 500 feet of Stewart's airspace has
> been released to the overlying approach control by Letter of Agreement, so
> SWF controllers wouldn't even be interested in you unless you transitioned
> lower than that. In any event "Am I cleared through Stewart's airspace?"
> would clear up any uncertainty.
>

From the New York TRACON / Stewart Tower LOA:

4. PROCEDURES:

b. IFR Arrival.

(1) N90 shall:

(f) When the weather is VFR, coordinate with the TOWER all
instrument approaches to Runway 6 at Dutchess (POU).

f. Surface Area.

(1) The TOWER authorizes the TRACON to:

(a) Provide radar services within the Surface Area at 3,000
feet MSL.

(b) Descend into Class D airspace within the approach course
airspace depicted in Attachment A, as coordinated in
paragraph 4.b.(1).(f).


ATTACHMENT A

Dutchess Runway 6 Approach Course Airspace

Airspace based on Final Approach Trapezoid as defined in FAA Order
8260.3B - "United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures
(TERPS)" Chapter 5, Paragraph 513.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Tman wrote:
> Appreciate this groups insight :)...
>
> When getting VFR advisories into an uncontrolled field, when and how
> ought one transition to the CTAF.

A lot of it is going to depend on which uncontrolled airport you are going
into. Take for example KELD. Center only has radar coverage of the area down
to ~2000 ft. Pattern alt is ~1000 feet. So flight following is going to have
very little information on what's in the pattern.

A good rule of thumb would be to be on the freq where you are going to get
the most and best information. And not only be prepared to make that
decision yourself but PLAN to make that decision yourself because flight
following might well forget you.

[Mike Isaksen]

> "Bob Gardner" wrote in message
>> In any event "Am I cleared through Stewart's airspace?"
>> would clear up any uncertainty.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
> From the New York TRACON / Stewart Tower LOA:

While Steven's post is technically correct and with supporting data no less,
it takes a tangent to the OP's original questions. The LOA mentioned
references mostly TRACON problem of descending northeast bound traffic
landing KPOU clipping the KSWF class D.

The OP's answer was in Bob's simple statement above. And having flown the
similar route westbound many times, the ATC response will be "unable the
handoff to Stewart Tower,..." usually followed by "what are your
intentions?" if you are above 3000, or "VFR services terminated, squawk
1200, try Stewart Tower on 121.00" if you are below 3000.

I've found SWF to accommodate a westbound transition at 2500 (landing MGJ)
with little problem, but even the more typical crossing SWF at above 3000 is
no problem landing MGJ. You'll just need to plan your descent on the west
side of MGJ after over flying the field. Depending on my aircraft's
requirements, if landing 03, I begin a 500-700 fpm descent when crossing MGJ
westbound, descend for about two minutes and begin a standard rate
descending right hand turn, ending in a 45 inbound at pattern. Pretty much
what the OP did, except I never feel as rushed and would not descend at 1200
fpm just to keep it tight.

As to when to give up FF, I usually call the airport in sight, and I
definitely want to be on CTAF at five miles. Here in the NE, there could be
2 to 3 other planes looking to do the same thing I am at the very same time
(ie all overflying the field or entering the 45 from different directions)
and my eyeballs only work to about 3-5 miles at best.

This area is going to become very interesting over the next ten years. Since
the Port Authority of NY/NJ just took over official ownership of KSWF last
week. I saw plans for major highway and interstate changes to get airport
access. This area could see the next Class C if the plans are even half
fulfilled. That would probably open a new desk at TRACON and give even
better access for services. However, us VFR spamcans will have one less
block of airspace to just buzz around in.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:45:19 -0500, "Tman" <N/A> wrote:

>>
>> Since you are talking to ATC, unless told to maintain clearance or
>> altitude, there is no reason you can't fly through class D or C
>> airspace or even B if told cleared through the Bravo.
>>
>
>Really AIM 3.2.5 says that i need to have two-way radio contact with the
>"ATC facility providing ATC services", which in this case i think means i
>need to be talking to Stewart Tower, not NY Approach (?).
>

And this uncontrolled field he's asking about has a tower?

It should be at least 5 out, Airport in sight, request frequency
change. They'll approve the change and terminate FF at that point
usually with any traffic advisories if they see any. 5 out gives you
at least a bit of time to monitor CTAF or UNICOM and anounce your
intentions.

Roger (K8RI)
>
>T
>