Martin Mars at Lake Elsinore #5

[Square Wheels[_3_]]

British Columbia's very own water bomber at work during those massive
California fires.

I believe we sent at least 6 or 7 dowm there.

[SHIVER ME TIMBERS]

> I believe we sent at least 6 or 7 dowm there.

Not of those we didn't.

[Square Wheels[_3_]]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:13:16 +0000, SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:

>
>> I believe we sent at least 6 or 7 dowm there.
>
> Not of those we didn't.

No, you're absolutely correct. I believe that company has only 2 or 3 of
them -- all that are left, AFAIK.

But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.

I should have been more clear on that point.

Sorry!

"I misspoke myself."

- Richard M. Nixon


SW


--
The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with
language.

-J. Michael Straczynski, author (b.1954)

[Michael Huber[_2_]]

According to WP, a total of 6 Martin Mars were built: The first Hawaii Mars
(lost 1947), the Marianas Mars (lost 1961), the Philippine Mars (with
Coulson), the Marshall Mars (lost 1950), the Caroline Mars (lost 1962), and
the second Hawaii Mars (with Coulson, the one photographed).

So a total of two out of six survive, both working as firebombers for
Coulson Flying Tankers.

MH.

[SHIVER ME TIMBERS]

> Square Wheels > wrote:


> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.

I thought that Quebec sent a couple of the Canadair
215 ( radial ) or 415 ( turboprop ).

But an interesting curious question based on your comments.

Does the Canadian Forces have fire fighting aircraft.

I wasn't aware that they did.... but what do I know.

> I should have been more clear on that point.

Oh I was just having a little fun too.

I can't remember just how many of the Martin Mars were built
but it was a small number I'm sure.

And I'm sure some kind sole will place the answer here...

[Robert Sveinson]

"Square Wheels" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:13:16 +0000, SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
>
>>
>>> I believe we sent at least 6 or 7 dowm there.
>>
>> Not of those we didn't.
>
> No, you're absolutely correct. I believe that company has only 2 or 3 of
> them -- all that are left, AFAIK.

There are only 2 Martin Mars left in flying
condition and both reside on Vancouver Island.


>
> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.

There were 2 CL-215s from Quebec also.


>
> I should have been more clear on that point.
>
> Sorry!
>
> "I misspoke myself."
>
> - Richard M. Nixon
>
>
> SW
>
>
> --
> The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with
> language.
>
> -J. Michael Straczynski, author (b.1954)
>

[Square Wheels[_3_]]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:09:09 +0000, SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:

>> Square Wheels > wrote:
>
>
>> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
>> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.
>
> I thought that Quebec sent a couple of the Canadair
> 215 ( radial ) or 415 ( turboprop ).
>
> But an interesting curious question based on your comments.
>
> Does the Canadian Forces have fire fighting aircraft.
>
> I wasn't aware that they did.... but what do I know.

More than I do likely; I'm not an 'aircraft-guy', I just like looking at
the pix and learning whatever I can....

My best friend was a commercial pilot until he developed pigmentary
glaucoma, a friend and colleague is a commercial pilot and has
written several books on aircraft and aircraft incidents, and my
cousin was a highly-decorated fighter pilot in Viet Nam, so I definitely
have an interest, just no particular talent for understanding it all that
well......

But, I digress.

I was certain I had seen nice CF-looking gray cargo-type planes dumping
borate and water on forest fires here, but evidently not.

I think they should know here:

http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=651&bhfv=2&bhqs=1

but nary a mention....

Eh bien, liver and loin, live and learn,


SW



>
>> I should have been more clear on that point.
>
> Oh I was just having a little fun too.
>
> I can't remember just how many of the Martin Mars were built
> but it was a small number I'm sure.
>
> And I'm sure some kind sole will place the answer here...

--
The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with
language.

-J. Michael Straczynski, author (b.1954)

[SHIVER ME TIMBERS]

> Square Wheels > wrote:

> My best friend

> a friend and colleague

> my cousin was

> so I definitely have an interest,

Holy smokies..... with friends and family like that
you should become a pilot.

[Square Wheels[_3_]]

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 03:52:34 +0000, SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:

>> Square Wheels > wrote:
>
>> My best friend
>
>> a friend and colleague
>
>> my cousin was
>
>> so I definitely have an interest,
>
> Holy smokies..... with friends and family like that
> you should become a pilot.

Uh, well, I even get dizzy on a thick carpet, y'see......

I'm a car-d00d, and I like terra firma, and the more firma the less terra....

;^)



--
The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with
language.

-J. Michael Straczynski, author (b.1954)

[Jacques & Laurie[_2_]]

In reply to a question: "Does the CAF have fire fighting aircraft? " The
answer to that is no. The provincial governments have, if not they employ
private firms to do so.

Jacques


"Robert Sveinson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Square Wheels" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:13:16 +0000, SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I believe we sent at least 6 or 7 dowm there.
>>>
>>> Not of those we didn't.
>>
>> No, you're absolutely correct. I believe that company has only 2 or 3 of
>> them -- all that are left, AFAIK.
>
> There are only 2 Martin Mars left in flying
> condition and both reside on Vancouver Island.
>
>
>>
>> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
>> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.
>
> There were 2 CL-215s from Quebec also.
>
>
>>
>> I should have been more clear on that point.
>>
>> Sorry!
>>
>> "I misspoke myself."
>>
>> - Richard M. Nixon
>>
>>
>> SW
>>
>>
>> --
>> The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with
>> language.
>>
>> -J. Michael Straczynski, author (b.1954)
>>
>
>

[Ramapo]

One prototype and 4 production machines were produced. The prototype
and first 3 machines had Wright R-3350's and the last machine built
had Pratt & Whitney R-4360's. Later, the first three production
machines had R-4360's installed and were modified to the last
production machine's specs.

A truly majestic aircraft by any standard.

Paul

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:20:43 -0800, Savageduck >
wrote:

>On 2007-11-06 19:35:49 -0800, Square Wheels
> said:
>
>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:09:09 +0000, SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
>>
>>>> Square Wheels > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
>>>> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.
>>>
>>> I thought that Quebec sent a couple of the Canadair 215 ( radial ) or
>>> 415 ( turboprop ).
>>>
>>> But an interesting curious question based on your comments.
>>>
>>> Does the Canadian Forces have fire fighting aircraft.
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware that they did.... but what do I know.
>>
>> More than I do likely; I'm not an 'aircraft-guy', I just like looking at
>> the pix and learning whatever I can....
>>
>> My best friend was a commercial pilot until he developed pigmentary
>> glaucoma, a friend and colleague is a commercial pilot and has
>> written several books on aircraft and aircraft incidents, and my
>> cousin was a highly-decorated fighter pilot in Viet Nam, so I definitely
>> have an interest, just no particular talent for understanding it all that
>> well......
>>
>> But, I digress.
>>
>> I was certain I had seen nice CF-looking gray cargo-type planes dumping
>> borate and water on forest fires here, but evidently not.
>
>The Martin Mars was in California on a spot contract. L.A. County has a
>fire season contract to have a "Super-Scooper" in place for the entire
>season with options to bring in additional support.
>Then The California Department of Forestry (CDF) has its own fire
>fighting airforce stationed at various airports throughout California,
>that is supplemented by contracted big load tankers such as converted
>DC7s.
>Additional help comes from the US Forestry Service, Cal Fire, and the
>various County, Municipal and volunteer fire services and helicopters
>from the California National Guard.
>The military aircraft you saw were C130's provided by the US Defence
>Department after the declared state of emergency. Other military
>helicopters were used by the Marine Corps to fight the fires at Camp
>Pendleton.
>>
>> I think they should know here:
>>
>> http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=651&bhfv=2&bhqs=1
>>
>> but nary a mention....
>>
>> Eh bien, liver and loin, live and learn,
>>
>>
>> SW
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> I should have been more clear on that point.
>>>
>>> Oh I was just having a little fun too.
>>>
>>> I can't remember just how many of the Martin Mars were built
>>> but it was a small number I'm sure.
>>>
>>> And I'm sure some kind sole will place the answer here...
>

[RobG]

Ramapo > wrote

> A truly majestic aircraft by any standard.

And a real treat to be able to see aviation heritage still being used.
Visited Sproat Lake at Easter and got to sit in one - truly magnificent.
Long may they rain. (Not reign - I know the difference!)

RobG

[John Szalay]

RobG > wrote in
:

> Ramapo > wrote
>
>> A truly majestic aircraft by any standard.
>
> And a real treat to be able to see aviation heritage still being used.
> Visited Sproat Lake at Easter and got to sit in one - truly
> magnificent. Long may they rain. (Not reign - I know the difference!)
>
> RobG
>


One of these great planes burned and sank off Hawaii.
couple of years ago, the HURL team that found the USS Wards
Japanese mini-sub also found the remains of that flying boat.
the "Marshall Mars"

http://starbulletin.com/2004/12/14/news/story4.html



http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/

[SteveB]

The US Navy only built about 6 of these Flying Boats at the end of World War
2. They were used on a freight and cargo run across the Pacific until the
early '50's then scrapped. A BC forest company bought the remaining four of
them from the scrap dealer and brought them to Victoria, B.C. in the late
'50's. One was scrapped and used for parts after being damaged in a
hurricane that hit Victoria and one crashed in the mid 60's fighting a fire
behind Parksville, B.C.. This leaves 2 of the aircraft left. These
aircraft are based in Sproat Lake near Port Alberni, B.C. They are the
largest flying tankers of their type in existence.

Steve

"Michael Huber" > wrote in message
...
> According to WP, a total of 6 Martin Mars were built: The first Hawaii
Mars
> (lost 1947), the Marianas Mars (lost 1961), the Philippine Mars (with
> Coulson), the Marshall Mars (lost 1950), the Caroline Mars (lost 1962),
and
> the second Hawaii Mars (with Coulson, the one photographed).
>
> So a total of two out of six survive, both working as firebombers for
> Coulson Flying Tankers.
>
> MH.

[Andrew Chaplin]

"SHIVER ME TIMBERS" > wrote in message
...
>> Square Wheels > wrote:
>
>
>> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
>> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.
>
> I thought that Quebec sent a couple of the Canadair
> 215 ( radial ) or 415 ( turboprop ).
>
> But an interesting curious question based on your comments.
>
> Does the Canadian Forces have fire fighting aircraft.
>
> I wasn't aware that they did.... but what do I know.
>
>> I should have been more clear on that point.
>
> Oh I was just having a little fun too.
>
> I can't remember just how many of the Martin Mars were built
> but it was a small number I'm sure.
>
> And I'm sure some kind sole will place the answer here...

"Kind sole"? Sounds fishy to me. :^)

Natural resources like the forests are a provincial responsibility under the
division of powers clause in the Constitution Act, 1867, so the provinces
concerned (B.C., Alberta, Ontario and Quebec) maintain fleets of firefighting
aircraft or have contractors do it for them; Ontario has nine CL-415s and
Quebec has eight CL-415s, two CL-215Ts and four CL-215Ps.

The CF have neither the role nor any firefighting capability, unless you count
Griffons hauling buckets.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[CWO4 Dave Mann]

Andrew Chaplin wrote:
> "SHIVER ME TIMBERS" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Square Wheels > wrote:
>>
>>> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
>>> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.
>> I thought that Quebec sent a couple of the Canadair
>> 215 ( radial ) or 415 ( turboprop ).
>>
>> But an interesting curious question based on your comments.
>>
>> Does the Canadian Forces have fire fighting aircraft.
>>
>> I wasn't aware that they did.... but what do I know.
>>
>>> I should have been more clear on that point.
>> Oh I was just having a little fun too.
>>
>> I can't remember just how many of the Martin Mars were built
>> but it was a small number I'm sure.
>>
>> And I'm sure some kind sole will place the answer here...
>
> "Kind sole"? Sounds fishy to me. :^)
>
> Natural resources like the forests are a provincial responsibility under the
> division of powers clause in the Constitution Act, 1867, so the provinces
> concerned (B.C., Alberta, Ontario and Quebec) maintain fleets of firefighting
> aircraft or have contractors do it for them; Ontario has nine CL-415s and
> Quebec has eight CL-415s, two CL-215Ts and four CL-215Ps.
>
> The CF have neither the role nor any firefighting capability, unless you count
> Griffons hauling buckets.


Considering the demand for fire fighting aircraft all over the world, I
am surprised that an enterprising investor doesn't get behind a single
model, high efficiency amphibian of new design and turn out a few
hundred at a few millions a pop. Should be worth a United Nations Grant
or something.

Cheers,

Dave

[Ron Monroe]

I guess you have to look at the sales record of the Canadair offereing to
see how that fared. How many have they sold? Did they make a profit? How did
they decide on the size? The other option would be to convert some of
Russia's big seaplanes. And, they sure would love the work, if someone would
buy them.
Ron

"CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
. ..
> Andrew Chaplin wrote:
>> "SHIVER ME TIMBERS" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> Square Wheels > wrote:
>>>
>>>> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
>>>> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.
>>> I thought that Quebec sent a couple of the Canadair
>>> 215 ( radial ) or 415 ( turboprop ).
>>>
>>> But an interesting curious question based on your comments.
>>>
>>> Does the Canadian Forces have fire fighting aircraft.
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware that they did.... but what do I know.
>>>
>>>> I should have been more clear on that point.
>>> Oh I was just having a little fun too.
>>>
>>> I can't remember just how many of the Martin Mars were built
>>> but it was a small number I'm sure.
>>>
>>> And I'm sure some kind sole will place the answer here...
>>
>> "Kind sole"? Sounds fishy to me. :^)
>>
>> Natural resources like the forests are a provincial responsibility under
>> the division of powers clause in the Constitution Act, 1867, so the
>> provinces concerned (B.C., Alberta, Ontario and Quebec) maintain fleets
>> of firefighting aircraft or have contractors do it for them; Ontario has
>> nine CL-415s and Quebec has eight CL-415s, two CL-215Ts and four
>> CL-215Ps.
>>
>> The CF have neither the role nor any firefighting capability, unless you
>> count Griffons hauling buckets.
>
>
> Considering the demand for fire fighting aircraft all over the world, I am
> surprised that an enterprising investor doesn't get behind a single model,
> high efficiency amphibian of new design and turn out a few hundred at a
> few millions a pop. Should be worth a United Nations Grant or something.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>

[Robert Sveinson]

"Savageduck" > wrote in message
news:2007111008312337709-savageduck@savagenet...

>
> There does seem to be some international distribution of the
> Canadair/Bombardier line, Spain has 15, Greece had 4 CL-215s, but lost one
> in the recent fires that they suffered. Minnesota has two. There may be
> other internation sales which Bombardier may be able to provide
> information on. It seems the CL-215 & CL-415 are versitile enough to
> provide justification for purchase or charter beyond some of the single
> purpose firefighting tankers.

Manitoba has at least 3 CL-215s.

In 2004 I was in the south of France and watched 13 CL-215s in close
formation, no doubt flying out to battle a big blaze. Several hours later
I saw them all returning in a pretty ragged formation.

[Grumpy AuContraire[_2_]]

snip



>
>
> Considering the demand for fire fighting aircraft all over the world, I
> am surprised that an enterprising investor doesn't get behind a single
> model, high efficiency amphibian of new design and turn out a few
> hundred at a few millions a pop. Should be worth a United Nations Grant
> or something.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>


Hmmmph!

Thar' you go again proposing the economy of scale... A procedure which
is not in any guv'ment's handbook!

<G>

JT

[Ron Monroe]

Here is another though, surplus Shin Meiwa PS-1 amphibians. They are a lot
larger than the Bombardier planes, and have 4 turboprops. I think Japan is
replacing them with newer SS-2s, based on the same airframe.
Ron

"Andrew Chaplin" > wrote in message
...
> "SHIVER ME TIMBERS" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Square Wheels > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> But according to news reports, BC did send several similar aircraft,
>>> probably from other companies or the Canadian Forces.
>>
>> I thought that Quebec sent a couple of the Canadair
>> 215 ( radial ) or 415 ( turboprop ).
>>
>> But an interesting curious question based on your comments.
>>
>> Does the Canadian Forces have fire fighting aircraft.
>>
>> I wasn't aware that they did.... but what do I know.
>>
>>> I should have been more clear on that point.
>>
>> Oh I was just having a little fun too.
>>
>> I can't remember just how many of the Martin Mars were built
>> but it was a small number I'm sure.
>>
>> And I'm sure some kind sole will place the answer here...
>
> "Kind sole"? Sounds fishy to me. :^)
>
> Natural resources like the forests are a provincial responsibility under
> the division of powers clause in the Constitution Act, 1867, so the
> provinces concerned (B.C., Alberta, Ontario and Quebec) maintain fleets of
> firefighting aircraft or have contractors do it for them; Ontario has nine
> CL-415s and Quebec has eight CL-415s, two CL-215Ts and four CL-215Ps.
>
> The CF have neither the role nor any firefighting capability, unless you
> count Griffons hauling buckets.
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
>

[Robert Sveinson]

Thanks for that!!


"Jim Townsend" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Sveinson wrote:
>
>
>> Manitoba has at least 3 CL-215s.
>
> I've never seen the whole fleet together, but I can
> safely say Manitoba has at least 5 for sure :-)
>
>
>
>
>