SeeYou Mobile: How Steep the Learning Curve?

[Chip Bearden]

I always hate to confirm my incompetence even when others already
suspect. But I don' t have the time or patience to learn how to
configure and use SeeYou Mobile on my own.

I've been playing with it for a couple of weeks on an eBay iPAQ 3950
series because although Glide Navigator II does most of what I need,
there are some features I wish it had (e.g., topo maps, final glide
over terrain). SeeYou Mobile reminds me of the first time I tried to
use Photoshop: incredible power and capabilty but about as intuitive
and user friendly as the cockpit of a 747 (and requiring nearly the
same training). I'm nowhere close to having the two map screens
configured to my satisfaction much less being comfortable with half
the things that pop up when my finger taps the screen deliberately or
accidently. I'm playing with it on public transportation to/from work
so the jostling and bumpiness add to the problem, although not
anywhere near as much as being in the cockpit will.

Moreover, do pilots actually use this without the stylus, using only
their fingertips as the input device? I saw a note in the user manual
about selecting TPs for a task using the Windows input screen before
launch. That won't work here in the U.S. where tasks are changed in
the air with minutes to go before the gate opens, though I'm finding
ways to build a task (albeit with the stylus) without the virtual
keyboard.

And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
still more nav boxes to the screen.

It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.

Pilots claim to be using SeeYou Mobile in contests (although I hear
stories of year-long ramp ups). Does anyone have a cheat sheet for how
they've set up their map screens? Tips and tricks for flying with it?
Shortcuts/hot keys for the most commonly required tasks? Shortest
paths to key data elements or functions? I've pored through forum
postings and gleaned certain things (e.g., using Map2 exclusively as
the final glide screen with large nav boxes) but I guess the real
secrets are being retained by those who've spent a year or two coming
up to speed. :)

There's a tongue-in-cheek tone in my posting, but also real
frustration. I'm originally an engineer, computer literate, work in
technology every day, and use many applications like Photoshop that
aren't exactly designed for novices. Yet SeeYou Mobile seems to be the
type of app that one must dedicate months and months to--including a
lot of practice this winter on the sim--to even have a prayer of using
next season. At the current rate, I'm not likely to pay to register my
eval copy before deciding I just can't risk spending too much time in
cockpit trying to sort out a problem when approaching a turnpoint or
on a dicey final glide.

I sat across the lunch table today from another experienced contest
pilot to demo what I'd learned so far. After a couple of soft resets
when the map screens froze, I was able to show him my main map screen.
Between the two of us, however, we triggered enough accidental zooms,
pop ups, wind menus, and the like that we were left passing the PDA
back and forth by its edges gingerly, as if it were a bomb.

By comparison, although GNII has many fewer functions and features,
it's practically idiot proof, can be used by someone without the user
manual almost from day 1, and hardly ever leaves you more than one
finger tap away from the main nav screen. I'm left wondering if SeeYou
Mobile is mostly popular with gadget freaks who would rather play with
technology than fly.

OK, SeeYou Mobile fans, let me have it! :)

Chip Bearden

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Chip Bearden wrote:
>I always hate to confirm my incompetence even when others already
>suspect. But I don' t have the time or patience to learn how to
>configure and use SeeYou Mobile on my own.

>
>OK, SeeYou Mobile fans, let me have it! :)
>
>Chip Bearden

Sorry I have no advice for you regarding SeeYou. I fly with many guys who
love it and are quite adept in its use. They'll probably be siging in soon to
help.

I was wondering tho'

Have you looked at XCSoar?
Its an open-source package that I have played with a bit but have not flown
yet. I have v.5.0 (current 5.1.2) and it is quite comparable to SeeYou and
WinPilot in many ways. Very stable on an HP 2215.

Some info linx:
XCSOAR Forum http://www.nabble.com/xcsoar-user-f3437.html
its on sourceforge :
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=141663

I think its worth a look.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200711/1

[[email protected]]

On Nov 8, 4:23 pm, "Kloudy via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote:
> Chip Bearden wrote:
> >I always hate to confirm my incompetence even when others already
> >suspect. But I don' t have the time or patience to learn how to
> >configure and use SeeYou Mobile on my own.
>
> >OK, SeeYou Mobile fans, let me have it! :)
>
> >Chip Bearden
>
> Sorry I have no advice for you regarding SeeYou. I fly with many guys who
> love it and are quite adept in its use. They'll probably be siging in soon to
> help.
>
> I was wondering tho'
>
> Have you looked at XCSoar?
> Its an open-source package that I have played with a bit but have not flown
> yet. I have v.5.0 (current 5.1.2) and it is quite comparable to SeeYou and
> WinPilot in many ways. Very stable on an HP 2215.
>
> Some info linx:
> XCSOAR Forumhttp://www.nabble.com/xcsoar-user-f3437.html
> its on sourceforge :http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=141663
>
> I think its worth a look.
>
> --
> Message posted via AviationKB.comhttp://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200711/1

Can't say about See You. XCSoar took me half a season to get dialed
so it did me the most good. The SINGLE most important function I use
is knowing what runways I have in range. All else is 'nice to have'.

Jim

[toad]

Chip,

I'll try to give you a quick overview of my experiences with CU mobile
and the next time you see me at Blairstown, come ask. I fly the Grob
3S.

I have been using seeyou mobile for several years now and like it a
bunch. I don't fiddle with it much in flight, most setup is done on
the ground.



On Nov 8, 5:47 pm, Chip Bearden > wrote:

> Moreover, do pilots actually use this without the stylus, using only
> their fingertips as the input device? I saw a note in the user manual
> about selecting TPs for a task using the Windows input screen before
> launch. That won't work here in the U.S. where tasks are changed in
> the air with minutes to go before the gate opens, though I'm finding
> ways to build a task (albeit with the stylus) without the virtual
> keyboard.
>

Rarely do I need to stylus. Tasks are created or edited using a
finger and the pull down list of turnpoints.
Edit Area radius with the +/- buttons.


> And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
> required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
> setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
> still more nav boxes to the screen.

No, they display L/D needed for the landing points on the map and 1
nav box showing L/D current. Compare and you're golden.

> It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
> I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
> without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.

I have only had 1 bad freeze bug and that is under the following
conditions.

You have the "Assigned Area" checkbox checked for both the start and
finish cylinder. This is a bug that CU is working on.

Otherwise it's been pretty stable.

>
> Pilots claim to be using SeeYou Mobile in contests (although I hear
> stories of year-long ramp ups). Does anyone have a cheat sheet for how
> they've set up their map screens? Tips and tricks for flying with it?
> Shortcuts/hot keys for the most commonly required tasks? Shortest
> paths to key data elements or functions? I've pored through forum
> postings and gleaned certain things (e.g., using Map2 exclusively as
> the final glide screen with large nav boxes) but I guess the real
> secrets are being retained by those who've spent a year or two coming
> up to speed. :)

Picking the nav boxes that you want has been the biggest hassle for
me.

There are not really many pages that you need to get to in flight
other than the main pages, which are cycled by the left/right
buttons.

The addition pages I go to are
1) the task page (set to one of the 4 hardware buttons)
2) the flight properties page (altimeter setting, bugs, ballast,
etc)
3) the fly direct page

I have a hardware button to turn on/off the topo, because it is
distracting most of the time.
I also keep the "thermal assistant" off.

For Assigned area tasks (TAT) just tap the screen to adjust the
turnpoint location.

The biggest tip is to not allow draging the "Symbols" like the final
glide or wind vector. This reduces screen touch screwups.

Maybe I should just list the actual in air tasks that I use SeeYou
for:

1) Navigation backup, where am I.
2) Show landing spots that I can glide to. they show up in yellow or
green,
3) show me the wind guesstimate
4) tell me the local ground elevation (it's pretty accurate)
5) give me bearing, distance and arrival altitude to a destination,
I have to select the destination

6) change MC, ballast or bugs
7) manage tasks (this is the big one and it takes most of the
interaction)

7.1) press the start button on your last exit of the cyclinder
7.2) add, delete, change or edit turnpoints - work the "task page"
7.3) move TAT points within the circle.

seeyou will then tell you all kinds of things like how much time it
predicts that you will take to finish. How much time is left before
the min time, your XC speed so far, etc. It will also predict how
much altitude you need to finish.

Later I can email you my setup file and you can see how I have the nav
boxes set up.


<snip>
> Chip Bearden

[Chip Bearden]

See comments inline:

> Rarely do I need to stylus. Tasks are created or edited using a
> finger and the pull down list of turnpoints.

I used SeeYou to open my GNII .dat file that includes ~35 contest
turnpoints plus another 200 waypoints. Then I created the SeeYou .cup
file and moved it to SeeYou Mobile. Now when I want to create a task,
all 235 waypoints show up on the task pulldown list. GNII allows me to
select from only the 35 actual turnpoints for a task but gives me all
235 to select from for "go to". Can I set SeeYou up the same way?

> > And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
> > required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
> > setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
> > still more nav boxes to the screen.
>
> No, they display L/D needed for the landing points on the map and 1
> nav box showing L/D current. Compare and you're golden.

I'm climbing at 2 kts. in a thermal coming up on glide path. My L/D is
infinite. So I need more nav boxes to do the normal "how far above/
below glide path given a destination, wind, and MC setting"
calculation before I can roll out and start monitoring current vs.
required L/D. Or am I missing something? I don't want to have to be
cruising to see if I can make it to various waypoints. I've set my
waypoint text lines up to show arrival height for now, plus colors.
>
> > It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
> > I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
> > without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.
>
> I have only had 1 bad freeze bug and that is under the following
> conditions. <snip>

I've had map screens freeze 3 or 4 times just in the past day during
sim mode and the entire app freeze the PDA when playing back a flight.
I've read the postings re the Assigned Area bug but that's not the
problem. Are "simulator" and "playback" modes less solid than navigate
mode?

<snip>
>
> Picking the nav boxes that you want has been the biggest hassle for
> me.

Agreed. I've got the user manual PDF open on my PC together with the
PDA and it's still a chore. The built in "help" is great but I can see
situations where I'm in the cockpit reading the help file and trying
to stay out of trouble.

> There are not really many pages that you need to get to in flight
> other than the main pages, which are cycled by the left/right
> buttons.
>
> The addition pages I go to are
> 1) the task page (set to one of the 4 hardware buttons)
> 2) the flight properties page (altimeter setting, bugs, ballast,
> etc)
> 3) the fly direct page

Yes, I like these features.

> I have a hardware button to turn on/off the topo, because it is
> distracting most of the time.

Haven't tried that; sounds good.

> I also keep the "thermal assistant" off.

The thermal assistant is one reason I'm looking at new software! :)

> For Assigned area tasks (TAT) just tap the screen to adjust the
> turnpoint location.

In my cockpit, tapping the screen happens often when I'm trying to
change the zoom or change screens due to rough air, what with having
the PDA on the panel and my long arms. I'm scared to death I'll tap
this thing and reconfigure it or lose the screen I want and have to
spend minutes getting back where I want. Right now what seems to
happen most of the time is changing the destination waypoint
accidentally.

> The biggest tip is to not allow draging the "Symbols" like the final
> glide or wind vector. This reduces screen touch screwups.

This might help. I guess I can also remove the "speed to fly" symbol
since that's on the LNAV anyway, and the north arrow, and the glide
path symbol (also on the LNAV and don't need if I've got the right nav
boxes.

> Maybe I should just list the actual in air tasks that I use SeeYou
> for:
>
> 1) Navigation backup, where am I.
Same with GNII
> 2) Show landing spots that I can glide to. they show up in yellow or
> green,
Same with GNII
> 3) show me the wind guesstimate
Same with GNII
> 4) tell me the local ground elevation (it's pretty accurate)
I like this feature, which I don't have
> 5) give me bearing, distance and arrival altitude to a destination,
Same with GNII
> I have to select the destination
>
> 6) change MC, ballast or bugs
> 7) manage tasks (this is the big one and it takes most of the
> interaction)
>
> 7.1) press the start button on your last exit of the cyclinder
> 7.2) add, delete, change or edit turnpoints - work the "task page"
> 7.3) move TAT points within the circle.
All as per GNII
> seeyou will then tell you all kinds of things like how much time it
> predicts that you will take to finish. How much time is left before
> the min time, your XC speed so far, etc. It will also predict how
> much altitude you need to finish.

SeeYou Mobile has some nice features GNII lacks. Some are small but
important; e.g., being able to show airspeed in knots but task speed
in mph (GNII forces you to pick one or the other). Also more powerful
comparison of glide to turnpoint vs. glide to finish at the same time.

> Later I can email you my setup file and you can see how I have the nav
> boxes set up.

Love to see. jnbearden <at> aol <dot> com. I'll chat with you next
time I see you. Thanks!

Chip Bearden

[Dan[_6_]]

On Nov 8, 7:26 pm, Chip Bearden > wrote:
> See comments inline:
>
> > Rarely do I need to stylus. Tasks are created or edited using a
> > finger and the pull down list of turnpoints.
>
> I used SeeYou to open my GNII .dat file that includes ~35 contest
> turnpoints plus another 200 waypoints. Then I created the SeeYou .cup
> file and moved it to SeeYou Mobile. Now when I want to create a task,
> all 235 waypoints show up on the task pulldown list. GNII allows me to
> select from only the 35 actual turnpoints for a task but gives me all
> 235 to select from for "go to". Can I set SeeYou up the same way?
>
> > > And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
> > > required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
> > > setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
> > > still more nav boxes to the screen.
>
> > No, they display L/D needed for the landing points on the map and 1
> > nav box showing L/D current. Compare and you're golden.
>
> I'm climbing at 2 kts. in a thermal coming up on glide path. My L/D is
> infinite. So I need more nav boxes to do the normal "how far above/
> below glide path given a destination, wind, and MC setting"
> calculation before I can roll out and start monitoring current vs.
> required L/D. Or am I missing something? I don't want to have to be
> cruising to see if I can make it to various waypoints. I've set my
> waypoint text lines up to show arrival height for now, plus colors.
>
>
>
> > > It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
> > > I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
> > > without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.
>
> > I have only had 1 bad freeze bug and that is under the following
> > conditions. <snip>
>
> I've had map screens freeze 3 or 4 times just in the past day during
> sim mode and the entire app freeze the PDA when playing back a flight.
> I've read the postings re the Assigned Area bug but that's not the
> problem. Are "simulator" and "playback" modes less solid than navigate
> mode?
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > Picking the nav boxes that you want has been the biggest hassle for
> > me.
>
> Agreed. I've got the user manual PDF open on my PC together with the
> PDA and it's still a chore. The built in "help" is great but I can see
> situations where I'm in the cockpit reading the help file and trying
> to stay out of trouble.
>
> > There are not really many pages that you need to get to in flight
> > other than the main pages, which are cycled by the left/right
> > buttons.
>
> > The addition pages I go to are
> > 1) the task page (set to one of the 4 hardware buttons)
> > 2) the flight properties page (altimeter setting, bugs, ballast,
> > etc)
> > 3) the fly direct page
>
> Yes, I like these features.
>
> > I have a hardware button to turn on/off the topo, because it is
> > distracting most of the time.
>
> Haven't tried that; sounds good.
>
> > I also keep the "thermal assistant" off.
>
> The thermal assistant is one reason I'm looking at new software! :)
>
> > For Assigned area tasks (TAT) just tap the screen to adjust the
> > turnpoint location.
>
> In my cockpit, tapping the screen happens often when I'm trying to
> change the zoom or change screens due to rough air, what with having
> the PDA on the panel and my long arms. I'm scared to death I'll tap
> this thing and reconfigure it or lose the screen I want and have to
> spend minutes getting back where I want. Right now what seems to
> happen most of the time is changing the destination waypoint
> accidentally.
>
> > The biggest tip is to not allow draging the "Symbols" like the final
> > glide or wind vector. This reduces screen touch screwups.
>
> This might help. I guess I can also remove the "speed to fly" symbol
> since that's on the LNAV anyway, and the north arrow, and the glide
> path symbol (also on the LNAV and don't need if I've got the right nav
> boxes.
>
> > Maybe I should just list the actual in air tasks that I use SeeYou
> > for:
>
> > 1) Navigation backup, where am I.
> Same with GNII
> > 2) Show landing spots that I can glide to. they show up in yellow or
> > green,
> Same with GNII
> > 3) show me the wind guesstimate
> Same with GNII
> > 4) tell me the local ground elevation (it's pretty accurate)
>
> I like this feature, which I don't have
>
>
>
>
>
> > 5) give me bearing, distance and arrival altitude to a destination,
> Same with GNII
> > I have to select the destination
>
> > 6) change MC, ballast or bugs
> > 7) manage tasks (this is the big one and it takes most of the
> > interaction)
>
> > 7.1) press the start button on your last exit of the cyclinder
> > 7.2) add, delete, change or edit turnpoints - work the "task page"
> > 7.3) move TAT points within the circle.
> All as per GNII
> > seeyou will then tell you all kinds of things like how much time it
> > predicts that you will take to finish. How much time is left before
> > the min time, your XC speed so far, etc. It will also predict how
> > much altitude you need to finish.
>
> SeeYou Mobile has some nice features GNII lacks. Some are small but
The best tutorial I got on CU was when I bought it at an SSA
convention a few years ago.

One feature I like about CU mobile is that they sold the CD.
I also own a license for GNII but I get charged for every
installation. I have a few PDA'sso I didn't care for that much.

GNII was easy to learn CU took a little time to figure out the best
configuration for me.
Now that I have experience with both I much prefer CU.

CU is somewhat like any modern computer system with a lot of choices.
Find what works for you and ignore the rest. It does become intuitive
after a while

As an example;
I have found the topo maps too hard to see or read so I don't use
them. For a while I did have them set up to toggle on and off but now
I don't do that.
I have one map page set up for thermalling and the other set up for
cruising with the important nav boxes for mode on each map page.

Good luck,
don't give up.
Dan Rihn
WO


> important; e.g., being able to show airspeed in knots but task speed
> in mph (GNII forces you to pick one or the other). Also more powerful
> comparison of glide to turnpoint vs. glide to finish at the same time.
>
> > Later I can email you my setup file and you can see how I have the nav
> > boxes set up.
>
> Love to see. jnbearden <at> aol <dot> com. I'll chat with you next
> time I see you. Thanks!
>
> Chip Bearden- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Eric Greenwell]

I don't use Mobile in contests because I stopped flying contests around
the time I got it. I did use GNII for several years, however. Remarks
follow.

Chip Bearden wrote:
> I'm nowhere close to having the two map screens
> configured to my satisfaction

When I got it, I configured one map just like the GNII screen; the other
map was used as a "thermalling screen". It was set to North Up, and
zoomed in so I could see the thermal drift.

As I got familiar with Mobile, I gradually changed the Nav boxes and
waypoint labels to take advantage of Mobile's features.

> much less being comfortable with half
> the things that pop up when my finger taps the screen deliberately or
> accidently. I'm playing with it on public transportation to/from work
> so the jostling and bumpiness add to the problem, although not
> anywhere near as much as being in the cockpit will.

I don't have any problems like that, but a ridge runner might. I use the
rocker key to switch between the maps and to zoom in/out. I touch the
screen mainly to select a waypoint and look at it's details. If it's
bumpy, I'll grasp the sides of the iPaq with my thumb and middle finger
to dampen the motion, then use my index finger to poke the screen.

> Moreover, do pilots actually use this without the stylus, using only
> their fingertips as the input device?

I do, but there are a couple infrequently used screens that take more care.


> And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
> required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
> setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
> still more nav boxes to the screen.

I've tried it a couple of times, don't like doing it that way, and still
use the MC setting with an arrival AGL box.

>
> It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
> I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
> without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.

This is unusual, based my experience (no freezing) and the small number
of complaints about freezing in the user group. Be sure to turn off the
IR beam, as this function can cause the iPaq to run slower and slower
and ... Normally, it's only an issue in bright sunlight.

> By comparison, although GNII has many fewer functions and features,
> it's practically idiot proof, can be used by someone without the user
> manual almost from day 1, and hardly ever leaves you more than one
> finger tap away from the main nav screen.

I liked GNII, but it's limits for aggressive recreational flying,
especially in the mountains (and lack of development at the time) and
unfamiliar areas, led me to Mobile. The SeeYou team has been very
responsive to improving the program and I expect them to continue to do
so.

And do try the Thermal Assistant, once you've sorted out the bigger
issues. It's quite useful to me when I need to devote attention to other
things, like stowing the engine, keeping track of nearby gliders, trying
to figure out my next move, and other distractions.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[bagmaker]

I am a huge fan of the FREE XCSoar program, its really good.

That said, I recommend you dont start any flight (or sim) without first going into the memory area of the little god-box thing and stopping all other programs, prior to firing up your flightware.

This little tidbit eliminated most of my screen-freeze problems.

Stick with it, they are a great time waster!

bagger

[Chip Bearden]

My iPAQ is dedicated to whatever soaring app I end up using; there's
nothing else in memory (I've checked). And the IR port is turned off
although I've only used it indoors so far.

With all the encouragement to "stick with it, it's worth it," I'm
beginning to get the sense that learning to use SeeYou Mobile (or,
from what I understand, WinPilot) may take as long as learning to fly
did originally. :) Seriously, that's not what I had in mind. I'm
willing to invest time to learn a new technology or application if I
have confidence that it's worth the investment. Much of what has been
touted for SeeYou Mobile so far, however, I've already got in GNII,
which took about one flight to learn to use. Nor am I interested in
using something that requires so much attention in the cockpit that I
have less time to focus on the flying itself.

Here's another example: I'm on the bus this morning into New York
playing with SeeYou Mobile and I push the rocker button to the left to
change map screens. Fine. After a few minutes, though, I notice my
target waypoint has changed. Turns out I'd mis-hit the button and
pushed it up at the same time I pushed left. On the one hand, being
able to change waypoints at any time by scrolling up or down is
whizzy, although I'm not sure how useful it is given the 235 waypoints
I have in my file. On the other hand, I don't want to have to check
the "next waypoint" message every time my hand goes near the iPAQ when
flying in rough air. I also grasp my Compaq 1550 with a couple of
fingers while tapping the screen but I still occasionally hit the
wrong spot. The worst thing that happens with GNII, however, is that
info on a waypoint pops up, then disappears in a few seconds if I
don't tap "Go To". It's self correcting, in another words. My
impression so far is that any of a dozen different small tapping
errors can alter settings in SeeYou Mobile. I know some can be
disabled during configuration, but shouldn't the default set up favor
new users?

I'm still concerned about being able to easily and very quickly enter
tasks without using the stylus, and play the "what if" games required
in a U.S. MAT task where you experiment with different next turnpoints
to time your arrival home. Apparently U.S. contest rules and tasking
are different enough in that respect as to render useless or
inconvenient what would be perfectly acceptable in other countries
(e.g., entering the task before launch).

I've been playing with this package for nearly two weeks now and am
increasingly disquieted by the thought that although it does
everything I want, I won't be able to use it in the real world. I've
actually had several contest pilots say that offline in the past 24
hours. The term that comes to mind, perhaps unfairly, is "a solution
looking for a problem." Is SeeYou Mobile overkill? Will savvy soaring
pilots soon be able to brag that they're "certified power users of
SeeYou Mobile" along with having their 1000 km diplome?

Keep those comments and suggestions coming.

Chip Bearden

[Bert Willing[_2_]]

Chip,

I've been using GPS_Log for 2 or 3 years (great stuff!), and I eventually
switched to SeeYou Mobile for the simple reason to have the data files in
the same format as PC SeeYou. That was about 3 years/400h ago.

The changeover took me significantly less than an afternoon, and the fine
tuning another flight or two. Since then, it just runs and does what I want.
Just wondering - where exactly do I get the 747 rating ? :-)

If you don't want a function on a button (like scrolling through the WP
list), just disable it in the setting menue.
The whole benefit of SeeYou Mobile is that you configure it to exactly what
you need on the ground, and then inflight you just use it. I haven't done
any configuration inflight so far - that would mean using the stylus, and
having the eyes in the cockpit too long.

The only input from me during most of the flights are
- zoom in/out
- change page
- change target WP or retrieve info on target WP

The nav boxes I have set are
- bearing to target
- distance to target
- ground speed
- required L/D
- actual L/D

When climbing to the glidepath for final, required L/D tells me when I can
leave that thermal alone.

Although I have the terrain data, I very rarely use the terrain on display
(I actually can see it quite nicely just outside the canopy :-). I only
display airfields/outlanding fields, mountain passes and airspace.

Speed tasks and AAT's are no problem at all, and even a change of the task
inflight wouldn't be a big hassle (although in France it's done on the grid,
sometimes sitting in the glider just before takeoff). I have no experience
with MAT's (is that those stupid cats craddles?).

But at the end, either you'll like it or not. I don't see a big performance
advantage of SeeYou Mobile over GPS_Log, but as I said, it's an advantage in
convenience.

Bert

"Chip Bearden" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My iPAQ is dedicated to whatever soaring app I end up using; there's
> nothing else in memory (I've checked). And the IR port is turned off
> although I've only used it indoors so far.
>
> With all the encouragement to "stick with it, it's worth it," I'm
> beginning to get the sense that learning to use SeeYou Mobile (or,
> from what I understand, WinPilot) may take as long as learning to fly
> did originally. :) Seriously, that's not what I had in mind. I'm
> willing to invest time to learn a new technology or application if I
> have confidence that it's worth the investment. Much of what has been
> touted for SeeYou Mobile so far, however, I've already got in GNII,
> which took about one flight to learn to use. Nor am I interested in
> using something that requires so much attention in the cockpit that I
> have less time to focus on the flying itself.
>
> Here's another example: I'm on the bus this morning into New York
> playing with SeeYou Mobile and I push the rocker button to the left to
> change map screens. Fine. After a few minutes, though, I notice my
> target waypoint has changed. Turns out I'd mis-hit the button and
> pushed it up at the same time I pushed left. On the one hand, being
> able to change waypoints at any time by scrolling up or down is
> whizzy, although I'm not sure how useful it is given the 235 waypoints
> I have in my file. On the other hand, I don't want to have to check
> the "next waypoint" message every time my hand goes near the iPAQ when
> flying in rough air. I also grasp my Compaq 1550 with a couple of
> fingers while tapping the screen but I still occasionally hit the
> wrong spot. The worst thing that happens with GNII, however, is that
> info on a waypoint pops up, then disappears in a few seconds if I
> don't tap "Go To". It's self correcting, in another words. My
> impression so far is that any of a dozen different small tapping
> errors can alter settings in SeeYou Mobile. I know some can be
> disabled during configuration, but shouldn't the default set up favor
> new users?
>
> I'm still concerned about being able to easily and very quickly enter
> tasks without using the stylus, and play the "what if" games required
> in a U.S. MAT task where you experiment with different next turnpoints
> to time your arrival home. Apparently U.S. contest rules and tasking
> are different enough in that respect as to render useless or
> inconvenient what would be perfectly acceptable in other countries
> (e.g., entering the task before launch).
>
> I've been playing with this package for nearly two weeks now and am
> increasingly disquieted by the thought that although it does
> everything I want, I won't be able to use it in the real world. I've
> actually had several contest pilots say that offline in the past 24
> hours. The term that comes to mind, perhaps unfairly, is "a solution
> looking for a problem." Is SeeYou Mobile overkill? Will savvy soaring
> pilots soon be able to brag that they're "certified power users of
> SeeYou Mobile" along with having their 1000 km diplome?
>
> Keep those comments and suggestions coming.
>
> Chip Bearden
>
>

[BB]

I've also been looking for a GNII replacement. It's a nice program,
but lacks a few important features -- it doesn't have a bottom to top
thermal average, and support for figuring out how long it will take to
finish a turn area or MAT flight is sketchy. Terrain map with landable
footprint also seems very useful in ridge country.

The main problem I've found is that other programs are not attuned to
US contest rules (or maybe vice versa!) They are designed for casual
cross country, OLC, or contests under European rules.

Task entry is a big issue. We often get tasks on the grid, 10 mintues
before takeoff. We often get tasks in the air, 10 minutes before the
start gate opens. (Let's not get off topic on a discussion of this
fact. Europeans will say, how dangeorous to change tasks in midair.
We'll say, how dangerous to send the whole fleet off into a
thunderstorm just because you were too rigid to change task in the
air. End of discussion.) This means US contest pilots absolutely need
quick, easy, goof-proof task entry. The GNII, designed for US
contests, is good at this. The others I evaluated are not. Even a few
more clicks, or a few more chances to freeze the whole thing by
pushing the wrong button, are a severe downside. I threw away one
program at Mifflin, when it froze my PDA and GPS while trying to enter
a task just before the start. (Yes I pushed the wrong button, but I
was looking out the window a lot, and why do I need to see boxes with
runway details when I'm picking a task?)

The US also has the MAT task, where you pick the turnpoints that end
the flight. Again, this means you have to evaluate lots of different
task options, while in the air, and sometimes while barreling down the
ridge at 100 knots or with traffic around. Simple, "what if" task
modification is vital. This is much harder on most of the programs I
evaluated, though their time estimates are better than GNII once the
task is entered.

As a minor issue, you want the program to handle US configured start
and finish gates, and US turnpoints. That's also present in GNII
(except for safety finish glideslope, but nobody has that yet).

Wind calculation is important issue, and hard to evaluate. The acid
test, for me, is: I've been barreling along the ridge without turning
for 400 miles (MIffin 2007). The ridge is about to make a sharp right
turn. Is the wind strength/direction going to keep me up around the
corner? Or, I'm thermaling, and want to try the ridge. Well, is it 310
at 12, or is it 280 at 8? GNII is about medium on this. In my
experience the SN10 was better, but that's not a PDA program.

I'm hoping the clear-nav will solve all these problems (plus
visibility), though the cost in dollars and watts will be a lot more
than a PDA.

John Cochrane

[5Z]

On Nov 9, 10:05 am, BB > wrote:
> I've also been looking for a GNII replacement.

-- good analysis snipped --

Me too.

Here, in Colorado, the winds are really flaky, so the GNII display of
instantaneous headwind component and difference from current vector
wind is a must for me. I'd love to be able to enter manual "winds
aloft" as I often fly a final glide in a tailwind, bu that can switch
to 10-20 knots headwind at 3-5K AGL (based on AWOS at the home field
and my guess of the altitude when that happens).

What's currently missing in GNII:

On the fly OLC optimization

Glide footprints based on terrain.

Modified final glide - adding some extra waypoints "on the fly" so I
can follow an off course cloud street, go around airspace, mountains,
blue holes, etc..

When 'fun flying', the ability to create a task some time after
leaving home, and having the software figure out the start time by
examining the historical flight data

On a declared task, not having to press the START button as I cross
the start line (see above) I want a button that does "I started a
while ago, go figure it out for me"

Automatic task finish - the last thing I need to be doing is pressing
the FINISH button while finishing with a dozen other sailplanes
nearby.

ALL airport data. Many airports here have an AWOS, but most airport
data available online and available in PDA software only provides a
single frequency for the CTAF. I fly near several tower controlled
airports, so not only need tower frequency, but ATIS and approach
control frequencies. Here's an excerpt for Colorado Springs from
AirNav.com:
UNICOM: 122.95
ATIS: 125.0(719-596-7040) 254.3
SPRINGS GROUND: 121.7 348.6
SPRINGS TOWER: 119.9(WEST) 133.15(EAST) 335.55(EAST) 360.6(WEST)
133.15 335.55
SPRINGS APPROACH: 118.5 239.025 120.6
SPRINGS DEPARTURE: 124.0 257.875
I carry current sectional charts, but as many of you know, sometimes
conditions can go from good to marginal (too busy now to find and
unfold the correct chart), to "oh crap, I'll need to punch through COS
class C to get to a safe landing spot".

-Tom

[toad]

On Nov 8, 10:26 pm, Chip Bearden > wrote:

> I used SeeYou to open my GNII .dat file that includes ~35 contest
> turnpoints plus another 200 waypoints. Then I created the SeeYou .cup
> file and moved it to SeeYou Mobile. Now when I want to create a task,
> all 235 waypoints show up on the task pulldown list. GNII allows me to
> select from only the 35 actual turnpoints for a task but gives me all
> 235 to select from for "go to". Can I set SeeYou up the same way?

No, and I have asked Seeyou to allow this capability for years.

As a work around I prefix all my contest TP's with the number and list
them by alphabetical order.


> I'm climbing at 2 kts. in a thermal coming up on glide path. My L/D is
> infinite. So I need more nav boxes to do the normal "how far above/
> below glide path given a destination, wind, and MC setting"
> calculation before I can roll out and start monitoring current vs.
> required L/D. Or am I missing something? I don't want to have to be
> cruising to see if I can make it to various waypoints. I've set my
> waypoint text lines up to show arrival height for now, plus colors.

Well, I use the final glide symbol for that, it shows me altitude
above/below glideslope to my current destination (or task finish).

For the rest I rely upon the colors. It's when I am actually making a
marginal glide that I compare achieved L/D to required. But I'm not
really that big on the feature.

>
> I've had map screens freeze 3 or 4 times just in the past day during
> sim mode and the entire app freeze the PDA when playing back a flight.
> I've read the postings re the Assigned Area bug but that's not the
> problem. Are "simulator" and "playback" modes less solid than navigate
> mode?

No, "simulator" and "playback" are just as solid. You might have a
bad PDA :-(


> Agreed. I've got the user manual PDF open on my PC together with the
> PDA and it's still a chore. The built in "help" is great but I can see
> situations where I'm in the cockpit reading the help file and trying
> to stay out of trouble.

Never used the help if flight.

> > For Assigned area tasks (TAT) just tap the screen to adjust the
> > turnpoint location.
>
> In my cockpit, tapping the screen happens often when I'm trying to
> change the zoom or change screens due to rough air, what with having
> the PDA on the panel and my long arms. I'm scared to death I'll tap
> this thing and reconfigure it or lose the screen I want and have to
> spend minutes getting back where I want. Right now what seems to
> happen most of the time is changing the destination waypoint
> accidentally.

I use the up/down buttons for zooming. I don't need to touch the
screen and I avoid accidentally changing the way point.

>
> This might help. I guess I can also remove the "speed to fly" symbol
> since that's on the LNAV anyway, and the north arrow, and the glide
> path symbol (also on the LNAV and don't need if I've got the right nav
> boxes.

Keep the glider symbol on the screen. That way you can have Seeyou
and the LNAV pointing to 2 different places and get altitude required
info for both.

Get rid of the speed-to-fly. Actually, I want to get rid of speed-to-
fly on every instrument I have. I just use predetermined speeds for
my glider (scared=55, happy=65, real happy=75)

> SeeYou Mobile has some nice features GNII lacks. Some are small but
> important; e.g., being able to show airspeed in knots but task speed
> in mph (GNII forces you to pick one or the other). Also more powerful
> comparison of glide to turnpoint vs. glide to finish at the same time.

My favorite "nice to have" feature is the altitude below final glider
around all turnpoints shown with the final glide symbol. You start
out on a long task and it's something like -50,000 feet.

Todd
3S

[Tim Mara]

look at FlywithCE Navigator. It is still IMHO the easiest to learn and
easiest to use of all of the PDA software. It does essentially everything
you might possibly need and when you need the information it's quicker to
access without having to jump through menu's like most other
software....plus you can store everything including your registration and
the program on an SD card so even if you let the PDA battery go dead as soon
as you ad power your program is restored with all of your databases,
personal preferences and so on without having to go back and
re-install....plus it really is very inexpensive
see : http://www.wingsandwheels.com/lx_navigation_accessories_for_ip.htm or
http://www.flywithce.com/index.html
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com


"Chip Bearden" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> See comments inline:
>
>> Rarely do I need to stylus. Tasks are created or edited using a
>> finger and the pull down list of turnpoints.
>
> I used SeeYou to open my GNII .dat file that includes ~35 contest
> turnpoints plus another 200 waypoints. Then I created the SeeYou .cup
> file and moved it to SeeYou Mobile. Now when I want to create a task,
> all 235 waypoints show up on the task pulldown list. GNII allows me to
> select from only the 35 actual turnpoints for a task but gives me all
> 235 to select from for "go to". Can I set SeeYou up the same way?
>
>> > And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
>> > required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
>> > setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
>> > still more nav boxes to the screen.
>>
>> No, they display L/D needed for the landing points on the map and 1
>> nav box showing L/D current. Compare and you're golden.
>
> I'm climbing at 2 kts. in a thermal coming up on glide path. My L/D is
> infinite. So I need more nav boxes to do the normal "how far above/
> below glide path given a destination, wind, and MC setting"
> calculation before I can roll out and start monitoring current vs.
> required L/D. Or am I missing something? I don't want to have to be
> cruising to see if I can make it to various waypoints. I've set my
> waypoint text lines up to show arrival height for now, plus colors.
>>
>> > It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
>> > I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
>> > without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.
>>
>> I have only had 1 bad freeze bug and that is under the following
>> conditions. <snip>
>
> I've had map screens freeze 3 or 4 times just in the past day during
> sim mode and the entire app freeze the PDA when playing back a flight.
> I've read the postings re the Assigned Area bug but that's not the
> problem. Are "simulator" and "playback" modes less solid than navigate
> mode?
>
> <snip>
>>
>> Picking the nav boxes that you want has been the biggest hassle for
>> me.
>
> Agreed. I've got the user manual PDF open on my PC together with the
> PDA and it's still a chore. The built in "help" is great but I can see
> situations where I'm in the cockpit reading the help file and trying
> to stay out of trouble.
>
>> There are not really many pages that you need to get to in flight
>> other than the main pages, which are cycled by the left/right
>> buttons.
>>
>> The addition pages I go to are
>> 1) the task page (set to one of the 4 hardware buttons)
>> 2) the flight properties page (altimeter setting, bugs, ballast,
>> etc)
>> 3) the fly direct page
>
> Yes, I like these features.
>
>> I have a hardware button to turn on/off the topo, because it is
>> distracting most of the time.
>
> Haven't tried that; sounds good.
>
>> I also keep the "thermal assistant" off.
>
> The thermal assistant is one reason I'm looking at new software! :)
>
>> For Assigned area tasks (TAT) just tap the screen to adjust the
>> turnpoint location.
>
> In my cockpit, tapping the screen happens often when I'm trying to
> change the zoom or change screens due to rough air, what with having
> the PDA on the panel and my long arms. I'm scared to death I'll tap
> this thing and reconfigure it or lose the screen I want and have to
> spend minutes getting back where I want. Right now what seems to
> happen most of the time is changing the destination waypoint
> accidentally.
>
>> The biggest tip is to not allow draging the "Symbols" like the final
>> glide or wind vector. This reduces screen touch screwups.
>
> This might help. I guess I can also remove the "speed to fly" symbol
> since that's on the LNAV anyway, and the north arrow, and the glide
> path symbol (also on the LNAV and don't need if I've got the right nav
> boxes.
>
>> Maybe I should just list the actual in air tasks that I use SeeYou
>> for:
>>
>> 1) Navigation backup, where am I.
> Same with GNII
>> 2) Show landing spots that I can glide to. they show up in yellow or
>> green,
> Same with GNII
>> 3) show me the wind guesstimate
> Same with GNII
>> 4) tell me the local ground elevation (it's pretty accurate)
> I like this feature, which I don't have
>> 5) give me bearing, distance and arrival altitude to a destination,
> Same with GNII
>> I have to select the destination
>>
>> 6) change MC, ballast or bugs
>> 7) manage tasks (this is the big one and it takes most of the
>> interaction)
>>
>> 7.1) press the start button on your last exit of the cyclinder
>> 7.2) add, delete, change or edit turnpoints - work the "task page"
>> 7.3) move TAT points within the circle.
> All as per GNII
>> seeyou will then tell you all kinds of things like how much time it
>> predicts that you will take to finish. How much time is left before
>> the min time, your XC speed so far, etc. It will also predict how
>> much altitude you need to finish.
>
> SeeYou Mobile has some nice features GNII lacks. Some are small but
> important; e.g., being able to show airspeed in knots but task speed
> in mph (GNII forces you to pick one or the other). Also more powerful
> comparison of glide to turnpoint vs. glide to finish at the same time.
>
>> Later I can email you my setup file and you can see how I have the nav
>> boxes set up.
>
> Love to see. jnbearden <at> aol <dot> com. I'll chat with you next
> time I see you. Thanks!
>
> Chip Bearden
>

[chipsoars]

On Nov 9, 4:41 pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> look at FlywithCE Navigator. It is still IMHO the easiest to learn and
> easiest to use of all of the PDA software. It does essentially everything
> you might possibly need and when you need the information it's quicker to
> access without having to jump through menu's like most other
> software....plus you can store everything including your registration and
> the program on an SD card so even if you let the PDA battery go dead as soon
> as you ad power your program is restored with all of your databases,
> personal preferences and so on without having to go back and
> re-install....plus it really is very inexpensive
> see :http://www.wingsandwheels.com/lx_navigation_accessories_for_ip.htmorhttp://www.flywithce.com/index.html
> tim
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com
>
> "Chip Bearden" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > See comments inline:
>
> >> Rarely do I need to stylus. Tasks are created or edited using a
> >> finger and the pull down list of turnpoints.
>
> > I used SeeYou to open my GNII .dat file that includes ~35 contest
> > turnpoints plus another 200 waypoints. Then I created the SeeYou .cup
> > file and moved it to SeeYou Mobile. Now when I want to create a task,
> > all 235 waypoints show up on the task pulldown list. GNII allows me to
> > select from only the 35 actual turnpoints for a task but gives me all
> > 235 to select from for "go to". Can I set SeeYou up the same way?
>
> >> > And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
> >> > required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
> >> > setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
> >> > still more nav boxes to the screen.
>
> >> No, they display L/D needed for the landing points on the map and 1
> >> nav box showing L/D current. Compare and you're golden.
>
> > I'm climbing at 2 kts. in a thermal coming up on glide path. My L/D is
> > infinite. So I need more nav boxes to do the normal "how far above/
> > below glide path given a destination, wind, and MC setting"
> > calculation before I can roll out and start monitoring current vs.
> > required L/D. Or am I missing something? I don't want to have to be
> > cruising to see if I can make it to various waypoints. I've set my
> > waypoint text lines up to show arrival height for now, plus colors.
>
> >> > It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
> >> > I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
> >> > without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.
>
> >> I have only had 1 bad freeze bug and that is under the following
> >> conditions. <snip>
>
> > I've had map screens freeze 3 or 4 times just in the past day during
> > sim mode and the entire app freeze the PDA when playing back a flight.
> > I've read the postings re the Assigned Area bug but that's not the
> > problem. Are "simulator" and "playback" modes less solid than navigate
> > mode?
>
> > <snip>
>
> >> Picking the nav boxes that you want has been the biggest hassle for
> >> me.
>
> > Agreed. I've got the user manual PDF open on my PC together with the
> > PDA and it's still a chore. The built in "help" is great but I can see
> > situations where I'm in the cockpit reading the help file and trying
> > to stay out of trouble.
>
> >> There are not really many pages that you need to get to in flight
> >> other than the main pages, which are cycled by the left/right
> >> buttons.
>
> >> The addition pages I go to are
> >> 1) the task page (set to one of the 4 hardware buttons)
> >> 2) the flight properties page (altimeter setting, bugs, ballast,
> >> etc)
> >> 3) the fly direct page
>
> > Yes, I like these features.
>
> >> I have a hardware button to turn on/off the topo, because it is
> >> distracting most of the time.
>
> > Haven't tried that; sounds good.
>
> >> I also keep the "thermal assistant" off.
>
> > The thermal assistant is one reason I'm looking at new software! :)
>
> >> For Assigned area tasks (TAT) just tap the screen to adjust the
> >> turnpoint location.
>
> > In my cockpit, tapping the screen happens often when I'm trying to
> > change the zoom or change screens due to rough air, what with having
> > the PDA on the panel and my long arms. I'm scared to death I'll tap
> > this thing and reconfigure it or lose the screen I want and have to
> > spend minutes getting back where I want. Right now what seems to
> > happen most of the time is changing the destination waypoint
> > accidentally.
>
> >> The biggest tip is to not allow draging the "Symbols" like the final
> >> glide or wind vector. This reduces screen touch screwups.
>
> > This might help. I guess I can also remove the "speed to fly" symbol
> > since that's on the LNAV anyway, and the north arrow, and the glide
> > path symbol (also on the LNAV and don't need if I've got the right nav
> > boxes.
>
> >> Maybe I should just list the actual in air tasks that I use SeeYou
> >> for:
>
> >> 1) Navigation backup, where am I.
> > Same with GNII
> >> 2) Show landing spots that I can glide to. they show up in yellow or
> >> green,
> > Same with GNII
> >> 3) show me the wind guesstimate
> > Same with GNII
> >> 4) tell me the local ground elevation (it's pretty accurate)
> > I like this feature, which I don't have
> >> 5) give me bearing, distance and arrival altitude to a destination,
> > Same with GNII
> >> I have to select the destination
>
> >> 6) change MC, ballast or bugs
> >> 7) manage tasks (this is the big one and it takes most of the
> >> interaction)
>
> >> 7.1) press the start button on your last exit of the cyclinder
> >> 7.2) add, delete, change or edit turnpoints - work the "task page"
> >> 7.3) move TAT points within the circle.
> > All as per GNII
> >> seeyou will then tell you all kinds of things like how much time it
> >> predicts that you will take to finish. How much time is left before
> >> the min time, your XC speed so far, etc. It will also predict how
> >> much altitude you need to finish.
>
> > SeeYou Mobile has some nice features GNII lacks. Some are small but
> > important; e.g., being able to show airspeed in knots but task speed
> > in mph (GNII forces you to pick one or the other). Also more powerful
> > comparison of glide to turnpoint vs. glide to finish at the same time.
>
> >> Later I can email you my setup file and you can see how I have the nav
> >> boxes set up.
>
> > Love to see. jnbearden <at> aol <dot> com. I'll chat with you next
> > time I see you. Thanks!
>
> > Chip Bearden- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I use Fly with CE. I think it works well, the learning curve was not
bad and support excellent. Uros has been very responsive to issues
and dumb questions. I cannot think of anything not taken care of
within 24 hours which is not shabby considering the time difference.
Chip Fitzpatrick

[Richard[_1_]]

On Nov 8, 2:47 pm, Chip Bearden > wrote:
> I always hate to confirm my incompetence even when others already
> suspect. But I don' t have the time or patience to learn how to
> configure and use SeeYou Mobile on my own.
>
> I've been playing with it for a couple of weeks on an eBay iPAQ 3950
> series because although Glide Navigator II does most of what I need,
> there are some features I wish it had (e.g., topo maps, final glide
> over terrain). SeeYou Mobile reminds me of the first time I tried to
> use Photoshop: incredible power and capabilty but about as intuitive
> and user friendly as the cockpit of a 747 (and requiring nearly the
> same training). I'm nowhere close to having the two map screens
> configured to my satisfaction much less being comfortable with half
> the things that pop up when my finger taps the screen deliberately or
> accidently. I'm playing with it on public transportation to/from work
> so the jostling and bumpiness add to the problem, although not
> anywhere near as much as being in the cockpit will.
>
> Moreover, do pilots actually use this without the stylus, using only
> their fingertips as the input device? I saw a note in the user manual
> about selecting TPs for a task using the Windows input screen before
> launch. That won't work here in the U.S. where tasks are changed in
> the air with minutes to go before the gate opens, though I'm finding
> ways to build a task (albeit with the stylus) without the virtual
> keyboard.
>
> And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
> required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
> setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
> still more nav boxes to the screen.
>
> It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
> I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
> without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.
>
> Pilots claim to be using SeeYou Mobile in contests (although I hear
> stories of year-long ramp ups). Does anyone have a cheat sheet for how
> they've set up their map screens? Tips and tricks for flying with it?
> Shortcuts/hot keys for the most commonly required tasks? Shortest
> paths to key data elements or functions? I've pored through forum
> postings and gleaned certain things (e.g., using Map2 exclusively as
> the final glide screen with large nav boxes) but I guess the real
> secrets are being retained by those who've spent a year or two coming
> up to speed. :)
>
> There's a tongue-in-cheek tone in my posting, but also real
> frustration. I'm originally an engineer, computer literate, work in
> technology every day, and use many applications like Photoshop that
> aren't exactly designed for novices. Yet SeeYou Mobile seems to be the
> type of app that one must dedicate months and months to--including a
> lot of practice this winter on the sim--to even have a prayer of using
> next season. At the current rate, I'm not likely to pay to register my
> eval copy before deciding I just can't risk spending too much time in
> cockpit trying to sort out a problem when approaching a turnpoint or
> on a dicey final glide.
>
> I sat across the lunch table today from another experienced contest
> pilot to demo what I'd learned so far. After a couple of soft resets
> when the map screens froze, I was able to show him my main map screen.
> Between the two of us, however, we triggered enough accidental zooms,
> pop ups, wind menus, and the like that we were left passing the PDA
> back and forth by its edges gingerly, as if it were a bomb.
>
> By comparison, although GNII has many fewer functions and features,
> it's practically idiot proof, can be used by someone without the user
> manual almost from day 1, and hardly ever leaves you more than one
> finger tap away from the main nav screen. I'm left wondering if SeeYou
> Mobile is mostly popular with gadget freaks who would rather play with
> technology than fly.
>
> OK, SeeYou Mobile fans, let me have it! :)
>
> Chip Bearden

Chip,

SeeYou & WinPilot

1. Pilots do use the programs with a finger( finger nail) , but the
stylus in my opinion is more posititve. It is also important to be
close to the ipaq about 17" so you can see and touch it easiily.
2. Buggy is usually an indication of selecting a function or menu
several times instead of touching and wait a second for response. (for
want of some other discription "impatience")
3. I have used WinPilot in every contest approx 1 or 2 every year for
the last ten years. I limit the NAV boxes to : TP & course dev,
Distance, Arrival Altitude, Wind Speed/Direction
(keep it simple).
4. I find also that WinPilot SeeYou is rarely more than on touch from
the main screen.
5. Even if you are pc capable the ipaq operating system is slightly
different and requires different actions to
operate.
6. I find that changing a task in fligth is easy with WinPilot or
SeeYou. It is in my opinion easier than changing a task on a SN10,
LX7007, Borgelt B2000
especially if the task requires changing area turnpoint radius.
7. WinPilot can have 25 task. The main and backup tasks can be
entered at the pilot meetings changing to one of the backups tasks is
quick and easy.
8. Many pilots that uses these programs use them in a specific way
that they have learned or developed.
Most don't have the experience of hearing many different questions
about the software and how other pilots use it. I am suprised many
times when customers tell me
how they use the programs and what is important to them.


Summary

I have used WinPilot for 10 or so years now. I used SeeYou for part
of the last 2 seasons. Both programs in my opinion are excellent.
They both have essiently offer similar features but sometimes in
different ways.
The Simulator Feature that both have will allow you to learn at home
and not in the cockpit.
Both do take some initial study. If you spend two months learning
SeeYou this winter (320 hours) then you in deed will be very skilled
with the program
and I will call you for support and answers. After your are familiar
with the menu items and where functions are both programs become very
easy.

I sell both SeeYou and WinPilot and provide offer 7 day a week phone
support, I believe it is important to be available on the weekends and
evenings.
I genenally answer calls when I get them even on the weekends and
return calls and emails the same day if not available.
I have found that many times a quick phone call will save my customer
many hours and make that learning curve steep.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Chip Bearden]

Thanks to all who offered help. As background, I know Windows CE 2.0
and 3.0 fairly well but there are a few differences I'm seeing in
Pocket PC 2002. And my hardware (iPAQ 3950 series)is fine; it's the
guy playing with SeeYou that's the problem.

I've gotten a bunch of tips and tricks from various people, including
two sets of config files I want to install and play with. In the
meantime, some of my screen freezes were, it turns out, due to the
known bug (AAT Start/Finish) and many of the rest may be due to
impatience, as Richard dubbed it (tapping a button again before giving
the system time to respond, especially while waiting for the colored
topo map screen to refresh). I'm still getting occasional strange
behavior but it's dropped off.

I've also remapped many of the buttons, removed or disabled clicking
for some of the symbols, and gotten the nav boxes organized better to
my taste. Also received was a workaround for the "35 TPs but 200+
waypoints" problem that eliminates the need to scroll through hundreds
of waypoints to set up a task (though it does reinforce my belief that
some of the software developers just don't "get it" when it comes to
U.S. contest rules and the impact on UI and usability, and heard from
one highly ranked pilot who gave up on an application for this reason
alone).

I have mixed feelings over Richard's prediction that 320 hours this
winter will make me a power user of CU Mobile. That's actually about
what I'd heard from another pilot regarding WinPilot, so it's
reassuring. On the other hand, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that
it should take 20-30 times longer to learn an application than to
learn how to fly gliders. And it brings me back to my original analogy
about Photoshop. Anyone who's used the full version knows how
confusing it is to the uninitiated but how much power is available
once you master even a small fraction of the tools. The same should
not be true of soaring software. Chip Garner designed a great
application that still does most of what we all want for competition,
and that many of us are still using. The UI is intuitive and users can
be up and running after literally only a few minutes of instruction or
reading. Yeah, there are some "secrets" and oddities, but Glide
Navigator II (at least driven by a Cambridge vario/GPSNAV) is
powerful, a breeze to learn, and simple to use. CU Mobile is more
powerful still but orders of magnitude more difficult to learn. I work
for an IT consulting company so I know how easy it is for technical
people to design software that does all kinds of whizzy things...but
that can't be used properly by anyone except experts. "Usability" is a
field that grew enormously with the advent of the World Wide Web,
where you still encounter Web sites with impressive functionality that
are failures because of drop out rates (i.e., users who give up
without accomplishing their goal) of 70% or more because they're not
intuitive or easy to learn.

I'll continue to experiment with CU Mobile, and also FlywithCE
Navigator and XCSoar, two other apps recommended by some who gave up
on CU Mobile. I'm also tracking the ClearNav project, which promises
to combine the ease of use of GNII with more powerful functionality
and an order-of-magnitude better display, albeit at higher cost than a
surplus iPAQ and CU Mobile. This sounds like a winning strategy to me
and I'd definitely be waiting for it were it not for cost reasons.

Keep those comments coming, however. I'm still in sim mode right now.
Unlike Dave Ellis who encouraged us to take off and play with his
early LNAV and then Pocket NAV (forerunner of GNII) to learn their
capabilities, with a lot more sim time I wouldn't dare venture into
the air with CU Mobile, at least not without a backup and a lot of
clearing turns to ensure separation while I fussed with the software.

Chip Bearden

[Papa3]

On Nov 10, 4:24 pm, Chip Bearden > wrote:
> Thanks to all who offered help. As background, I know Windows CE 2.0
> and 3.0 fairly well but there are a few differences I'm seeing in
> Pocket PC 2002. And my hardware (iPAQ 3950 series)is fine; it's the
> guy playing with SeeYou that's the problem.
>
> I've gotten a bunch of tips and tricks from various people, including
> two sets of config files I want to install and play with. In the
> meantime, some of my screen freezes were, it turns out, due to the
> known bug (AAT Start/Finish) and many of the rest may be due to
> impatience, as Richard dubbed it (tapping a button again before giving
> the system time to respond, especially while waiting for the colored
> topo map screen to refresh). I'm still getting occasional strange
> behavior but it's dropped off.
>
> I've also remapped many of the buttons, removed or disabled clicking
> for some of the symbols, and gotten the nav boxes organized better to
> my taste. Also received was a workaround for the "35 TPs but 200+
> waypoints" problem that eliminates the need to scroll through hundreds
> of waypoints to set up a task (though it does reinforce my belief that
> some of the software developers just don't "get it" when it comes to
> U.S. contest rules and the impact on UI and usability, and heard from
> one highly ranked pilot who gave up on an application for this reason
> alone).
>
> I have mixed feelings over Richard's prediction that 320 hours this
> winter will make me a power user of CU Mobile. That's actually about
> what I'd heard from another pilot regarding WinPilot, so it's
> reassuring. On the other hand, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that
> it should take 20-30 times longer to learn an application than to
> learn how to fly gliders. And it brings me back to my original analogy
> about Photoshop. Anyone who's used the full version knows how
> confusing it is to the uninitiated but how much power is available
> once you master even a small fraction of the tools. The same should
> not be true of soaring software. Chip Garner designed a great
> application that still does most of what we all want for competition,
> and that many of us are still using. The UI is intuitive and users can
> be up and running after literally only a few minutes of instruction or
> reading. Yeah, there are some "secrets" and oddities, but Glide
> Navigator II (at least driven by a Cambridge vario/GPSNAV) is
> powerful, a breeze to learn, and simple to use. CU Mobile is more
> powerful still but orders of magnitude more difficult to learn. I work
> for an IT consulting company so I know how easy it is for technical
> people to design software that does all kinds of whizzy things...but
> that can't be used properly by anyone except experts. "Usability" is a
> field that grew enormously with the advent of the World Wide Web,
> where you still encounter Web sites with impressive functionality that
> are failures because of drop out rates (i.e., users who give up
> without accomplishing their goal) of 70% or more because they're not
> intuitive or easy to learn.
>
> I'll continue to experiment with CU Mobile, and also FlywithCE
> Navigator and XCSoar, two other apps recommended by some who gave up
> on CU Mobile. I'm also tracking the ClearNav project, which promises
> to combine the ease of use of GNII with more powerful functionality
> and an order-of-magnitude better display, albeit at higher cost than a
> surplus iPAQ and CU Mobile. This sounds like a winning strategy to me
> and I'd definitely be waiting for it were it not for cost reasons.
>
> Keep those comments coming, however. I'm still in sim mode right now.
> Unlike Dave Ellis who encouraged us to take off and play with his
> early LNAV and then Pocket NAV (forerunner of GNII) to learn their
> capabilities, with a lot more sim time I wouldn't dare venture into
> the air with CU Mobile, at least not without a backup and a lot of
> clearing turns to ensure separation while I fussed with the software.
>
> Chip Bearden

"You know you have achieved perfection in design, not when you have
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Richard[_1_]]

On Nov 10, 1:24 pm, Chip Bearden > wrote:
> Thanks to all who offered help. As background, I know Windows CE 2.0
> and 3.0 fairly well but there are a few differences I'm seeing in
> Pocket PC 2002. And my hardware (iPAQ 3950 series)is fine; it's the
> guy playing with SeeYou that's the problem.
>
> I've gotten a bunch of tips and tricks from various people, including
> two sets of config files I want to install and play with. In the
> meantime, some of my screen freezes were, it turns out, due to the
> known bug (AAT Start/Finish) and many of the rest may be due to
> impatience, as Richard dubbed it (tapping a button again before giving
> the system time to respond, especially while waiting for the colored
> topo map screen to refresh). I'm still getting occasional strange
> behavior but it's dropped off.
>
> I've also remapped many of the buttons, removed or disabled clicking
> for some of the symbols, and gotten the nav boxes organized better to
> my taste. Also received was a workaround for the "35 TPs but 200+
> waypoints" problem that eliminates the need to scroll through hundreds
> of waypoints to set up a task (though it does reinforce my belief that
> some of the software developers just don't "get it" when it comes to
> U.S. contest rules and the impact on UI and usability, and heard from
> one highly ranked pilot who gave up on an application for this reason
> alone).
>
> I have mixed feelings over Richard's prediction that 320 hours this
> winter will make me a power user of CU Mobile. That's actually about
> what I'd heard from another pilot regarding WinPilot, so it's
> reassuring. On the other hand, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that
> it should take 20-30 times longer to learn an application than to
> learn how to fly gliders. And it brings me back to my original analogy
> about Photoshop. Anyone who's used the full version knows how
> confusing it is to the uninitiated but how much power is available
> once you master even a small fraction of the tools. The same should
> not be true of soaring software. Chip Garner designed a great
> application that still does most of what we all want for competition,
> and that many of us are still using. The UI is intuitive and users can
> be up and running after literally only a few minutes of instruction or
> reading. Yeah, there are some "secrets" and oddities, but Glide
> Navigator II (at least driven by a Cambridge vario/GPSNAV) is
> powerful, a breeze to learn, and simple to use. CU Mobile is more
> powerful still but orders of magnitude more difficult to learn. I work
> for an IT consulting company so I know how easy it is for technical
> people to design software that does all kinds of whizzy things...but
> that can't be used properly by anyone except experts. "Usability" is a
> field that grew enormously with the advent of the World Wide Web,
> where you still encounter Web sites with impressive functionality that
> are failures because of drop out rates (i.e., users who give up
> without accomplishing their goal) of 70% or more because they're not
> intuitive or easy to learn.
>
> I'll continue to experiment with CU Mobile, and also FlywithCE
> Navigator and XCSoar, two other apps recommended by some who gave up
> on CU Mobile. I'm also tracking the ClearNav project, which promises
> to combine the ease of use of GNII with more powerful functionality
> and an order-of-magnitude better display, albeit at higher cost than a
> surplus iPAQ and CU Mobile. This sounds like a winning strategy to me
> and I'd definitely be waiting for it were it not for cost reasons.
>
> Keep those comments coming, however. I'm still in sim mode right now.
> Unlike Dave Ellis who encouraged us to take off and play with his
> early LNAV and then Pocket NAV (forerunner of GNII) to learn their
> capabilities, with a lot more sim time I wouldn't dare venture into
> the air with CU Mobile, at least not without a backup and a lot of
> clearing turns to ensure separation while I fussed with the software.
>
> Chip Bearden

Chip,

I trained one customer on WinPilot who had no PC or PC experience.

I gave him 1 hour one on one training and he began to use the program
in his gilder for simple things like final glide to airports. I did
initially setup his program the maps, database, userway points, nav
boxes, units, safety margin etc.
A couple of weeks later I spend another hour training him to enter
tasks. I get some questions from him now and then at the airport, but
they tend to be simple ones and items that he just forgot where the
item was in the menu.
He did initially go thru the user manual with Ipaq in his hand. Doing
this gets you used to the key strokes to make things happen and most
important gives you an awareness of what is available in the program.
I think both WinPilot & SeeYou have very steep learning curves and if
you persits for 5 or more hours running simulator etc., and going thru
the manual at least once you will find either program to be very
effective.

Again going thru the manual once with ipaq in hand is very
important.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com