Moller's too late!

[Rich S.[_1_]]

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1006571&fr=yvmtf

Rich S.

[Big John]

Kind of looks like Raptors in a couple of frames overhead.

Isn't Hawaii one of the places to get the bird??

Big John

*******************************************88
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:21:11 -0800, "Rich S."
> wrote:

>http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1006571&fr=yvmtf
>
>Rich S.
>

[Bill Daniels]

You know, these look like RC models of some kind which brings up a question.
Why isn't it possible to build an RC model of Mollers contraption with
electric ducted fans? I'd think somebody with the creative skills (not me)
would have done so by now if it's possible.

Bill Daniels


"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Kind of looks like Raptors in a couple of frames overhead.
>
> Isn't Hawaii one of the places to get the bird??
>
> Big John
>
> *******************************************88
> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:21:11 -0800, "Rich S."
> > wrote:
>
>>http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1006571&fr=yvmtf
>>
>>Rich S.
>>
>

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "BD" == Bill Daniels <bildan@comcast-dot-net> writes:

BD> You know, these look like RC models of some kind which brings
BD> up a question. Why isn't it possible to build an RC model of
BD> Mollers contraption with electric ducted fans? I'd think
BD> somebody with the creative skills (not me) would have done so
BD> by now if it's possible.

Because Moller's concept is fundamentally stupid and unworkable. He
knows this and isn't about to illustrate that with a model. Though
why the investors and grantors haven't demanded this long before is
puzzling.
--
In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Bob Fry > said:
>>>>>> "BD" == Bill Daniels <bildan@comcast-dot-net> writes:
> BD> You know, these look like RC models of some kind which brings
> BD> up a question. Why isn't it possible to build an RC model of
> BD> Mollers contraption with electric ducted fans? I'd think
> BD> somebody with the creative skills (not me) would have done so
> BD> by now if it's possible.
>
>Because Moller's concept is fundamentally stupid and unworkable. He
>knows this and isn't about to illustrate that with a model. Though
>why the investors and grantors haven't demanded this long before is
>puzzling.

But the thing is that you can accomplish thrust to weight ratios in models
that are impossible in real life. And quietly too. And since thrust to
weight ratios and noise are two of the biggest problems with Moller's
design, I'd be scared that he'd made models to try to make it look more
workable than it is.



--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Documentation: Cryptic, lacking, erroneous. Pick any three.
-- Arvid

[Big John]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:07:38 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

>In a previous article, Bob Fry > said:
>>>>>>> "BD" == Bill Daniels <bildan@comcast-dot-net> writes:
>> BD> You know, these look like RC models of some kind which brings
>> BD> up a question. Why isn't it possible to build an RC model of
>> BD> Mollers contraption with electric ducted fans? I'd think
>> BD> somebody with the creative skills (not me) would have done so
>> BD> by now if it's possible.
>>
>>Because Moller's concept is fundamentally stupid and unworkable. He
>>knows this and isn't about to illustrate that with a model. Though
>>why the investors and grantors haven't demanded this long before is
>>puzzling.
>
>But the thing is that you can accomplish thrust to weight ratios in models
>that are impossible in real life. And quietly too. And since thrust to
>weight ratios and noise are two of the biggest problems with Moller's
>design, I'd be scared that he'd made models to try to make it look more
>workable than it is.


From a long time model builder I doubt if you would have enough thrust
using ducted fans and electric motors powered by batteries.I built
several models with electric ducted fans and they either didn't have
the rpm to generate flying thrust of if flew was at knee level for
maybe a 360 before the battery went down. If I had put bigger
batteries in then the weight to HP ratio would have been way out of
whack.

It might be possible to put gas ducted fans in a model and get enough
thrust to hover. Not just sure how the control system would have to be
designed to keep level and turn vehicle and also fly forward????

As was said earlier. It's a bad idea waiting for suckers to dump money
into the project or Mollers pocket.

Big John

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Big John" > wrote

> From a long time model builder I doubt if you would have enough thrust
> using ducted fans and electric motors powered by batteries.I built
> several models with electric ducted fans and they either didn't have
> the rpm to generate flying thrust of if flew was at knee level for
> maybe a 360 before the battery went down. If I had put bigger
> batteries in then the weight to HP ratio would have been way out of
> whack.

I don't know if you were still into modeling with the new generations of
lower RPM, super efficient brushless motors, and super light high capacity
Li-Po batteries, but I find it difficult to believe that it would not be
extremely easy to get 2 to 1 thrust to weight ratio, and keep it for at
least 10 or 15 minutes.

Granted, it would be a waste of money to do it modeling Moller, for anything
but the novelty of it.
--
Jim in NC

[Harry K]

On Nov 10, 2:34 am, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Big John" > wrote
>
> > From a long time model builder I doubt if you would have enough thrust
> > using ducted fans and electric motors powered by batteries.I built
> > several models with electric ducted fans and they either didn't have
> > the rpm to generate flying thrust of if flew was at knee level for
> > maybe a 360 before the battery went down. If I had put bigger
> > batteries in then the weight to HP ratio would have been way out of
> > whack.
>
> I don't know if you were still into modeling with the new generations of
> lower RPM, super efficient brushless motors, and super light high capacity
> Li-Po batteries, but I find it difficult to believe that it would not be
> extremely easy to get 2 to 1 thrust to weight ratio, and keep it for at
> least 10 or 15 minutes.
>
> Granted, it would be a waste of money to do it modeling Moller, for anything
> but the novelty of it.
> --
> Jim in NC

November issue of Reader's Digest has a squib in the first section
saying that he is going into production, projected selling cost just
under 100,000. Picture showe the old 4 engine version in horisontal
pods.

I also believe in the tooth fairy.

Harry K

[Big John]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 05:34:46 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Big John" > wrote
>
>> From a long time model builder I doubt if you would have enough thrust
>> using ducted fans and electric motors powered by batteries.I built
>> several models with electric ducted fans and they either didn't have
>> the rpm to generate flying thrust of if flew was at knee level for
>> maybe a 360 before the battery went down. If I had put bigger
>> batteries in then the weight to HP ratio would have been way out of
>> whack.
>
>I don't know if you were still into modeling with the new generations of
>lower RPM, super efficient brushless motors, and super light high capacity
>Li-Po batteries, but I find it difficult to believe that it would not be
>extremely easy to get 2 to 1 thrust to weight ratio, and keep it for at
>least 10 or 15 minutes.
>
>Granted, it would be a waste of money to do it modeling Moller, for anything
>but the novelty of it.

Jim

Yes I've seen and flown a little with the new stuff. My good flying
buddy has a number of birds with this kind of power system and keeps
pushing me to fly his latest :o)

I was more talking about ducted fans like Moller has. Haven't seen a
fan with the new motors and batteries????

The new electric systems and a regular prop sized accordingly does
pretty good and is said that that system will overtake gas engines
especially where fields are in/near housing areas and noise is a
problem.

I'd miss the wet engines when that day comes.

Again, I wouldn't touch a Moller with a ten foot pole :o)

Big John