Unauthorized Laser Illumination Event

[Marco Leon]

That's the official term to be used in describing what happened to me
yesterday. I went to HFD for the LDA approach for something different and I
sure got something different alright. Saw a flash out of the corner of my
eye. First I thought it was fireworks, then an airport beacon, then I
thought it was a TFR-related violation but quickly dismissed that when I
realized they only have that in the DC area. After about 4 or 5 seconds of
contemplating, I came to the conclusion that it was some bozo with a laser
since he kept the light in my general direction for a little while and it
was quite bright against all the other lights on that clear night.

I was already on with Bradley Approach so I advised them of the event. I
asked them if they minded if I swung the plane around and marked the spot
with my GPS to which they replied "please do." I was not afraid of more
exposure because of my trusty low-wing so I marked the spot and gave ATC the
lat/long. Before I left their airspace, they informed me that there were
multiple incidents in that area and proceeded to inform other aircraft as
per their protocol.

I filled out the form on AC 70-2 and faxed it in. I was thinking about
notifying the aviation dept of Hartford's local PD since they would be both
familiar with the area and in the best position to catch the *******.
Thoughts?

Marco

[Gatt]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
...

> I filled out the form on AC 70-2 and faxed it in. I was thinking about
> notifying the aviation dept of Hartford's local PD since they would be
> both familiar with the area and in the best position to catch the *******.
> Thoughts?

Just when it seemed like the general publics laser-pointer fascination (ie,
"shiny object") had passed, somebody came out with the handheld $200
high-intensity green lasers, 'cause, everybody knows how important it is to
have handheld high-intensity lasers.

Kinda funny that the acronym is "U.L.I.E" though.

-c

[Judah]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in
:

> I filled out the form on AC 70-2 and faxed it in. I was thinking about
> notifying the aviation dept of Hartford's local PD since they would be
> both familiar with the area and in the best position to catch the
> *******. Thoughts?

What altitude where you at?

I would bet that a kid with a handheld laser pointer might be very difficult
to catch and prosecute, and I bet even a handheld laser pointer will create a
flash in your eye at 2000 feet, even if the beam has diffused enough that the
"operator" won't be able to tell for sure where it's hitting your plane...

I just hope that the noise grumblers don't get the same idea...

[Marco Leon]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> What altitude where you at?
>
> I would bet that a kid with a handheld laser pointer might be very
> difficult
> to catch and prosecute, and I bet even a handheld laser pointer will
> create a
> flash in your eye at 2000 feet, even if the beam has diffused enough that
> the
> "operator" won't be able to tell for sure where it's hitting your plane...
>
> I just hope that the noise grumblers don't get the same idea...

I was at 1,700 feet. I used the Garmin 496 to mark the spot so it
conveniently took note of the time and altitude as well. Switching it to the
Automotive mode, I was able to narrow it down to a 6 block by two block area
in a specific neighborhood in Connecticut.

There was definitely a flash and I lost my nightvision in the left eye for a
little while which was a weird feeling. It was kind of like wearing glasses
with a bug smudge on the left lense.

Marco

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Judah wrote:
>
> I just hope that the noise grumblers don't get the same idea...

I disagree. Hoping of course they don' hurt anyone it would be nice to put a
few of them in jail.

[Judah]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
:

> Judah wrote:
>>
>> I just hope that the noise grumblers don't get the same idea...
>
> I disagree. Hoping of course they don' hurt anyone it would be nice to
> put a few of them in jail.

What do you think are the chances of finding the guy, let alone prosecuting
him?

I'd say pretty slim at best. And Marco marked the area with a GPS. I'm not
sure I would have.

[Judah]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in
:

> I was at 1,700 feet. I used the Garmin 496 to mark the spot so it
> conveniently took note of the time and altitude as well. Switching it to
> the Automotive mode, I was able to narrow it down to a 6 block by two
> block area in a specific neighborhood in Connecticut.
>
> There was definitely a flash and I lost my nightvision in the left eye
> for a little while which was a weird feeling. It was kind of like
> wearing glasses with a bug smudge on the left lense.
>
> Marco

That's a pretty big area. I hope you're successful in finding the
perpetrator...

[Gatt]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..

> What do you think are the chances of finding the guy, let alone
> prosecuting
> him?
>
> I'd say pretty slim at best.

Possibly. On the other hand, there just might be an annoying teenager in the
neighborhood who has been harassing neighbors, traffic, pets, etc. The
thing with laser-geeks is they can't seem to control themselves. And, who
knows...maybe one of those neighbors is also a pilot.

>And Marco marked the area with a GPS. I'm not sure I would have.

Can't hurt.

-c

[the warlock society]

Judah wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
> :
>
> > Judah wrote:
> >>
> >> I just hope that the noise grumblers don't get the same idea...
> >
> > I disagree. Hoping of course they don' hurt anyone it would be nice to
> > put a few of them in jail.
>
> What do you think are the chances of finding the guy, let alone prosecuting
> him?
>
> I'd say pretty slim at best. And Marco marked the area with a GPS. I'm not
> sure I would have.


ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
answer?

[Marco Leon]

"Gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Possibly. On the other hand, there just might be an annoying teenager in
> the neighborhood who has been harassing neighbors, traffic, pets, etc.
> The thing with laser-geeks is they can't seem to control themselves.
> And, who knows...maybe one of those neighbors is also a pilot.
>
>>And Marco marked the area with a GPS. I'm not sure I would have.
>
> Can't hurt.

I was wondering on the chances of finding the guy as well but after doing a
search on the term "laser" on the FBI website, they seem to be able to find
at least a few of them. Some cases were laughable (i.e. the gut who painted
a police helicopter equipped with night vision) and others did not seem as
easy to catch. But catch they did.

Marco

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Marco Leon wrote:
>
>
> I filled out the form on AC 70-2 and faxed it in. I was thinking about
> notifying the aviation dept of Hartford's local PD since they would be both
> familiar with the area and in the best position to catch the *******.
> Thoughts?

I live under that approach. The LDA2 travels over East Hampton,
Portland, Glastonbury, and maybe a tick of Wethersfield and Cromwell.

Where were you in relation to LOMIS and DANNS when the laser hit you?

Email me direct @ barry at bburke dot com, if I can help or if you want
to share the coordinates.

[[email protected]]

Judah > wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
> :

> > Judah wrote:
> >>
> >> I just hope that the noise grumblers don't get the same idea...
> >
> > I disagree. Hoping of course they don' hurt anyone it would be nice to
> > put a few of them in jail.

> What do you think are the chances of finding the guy, let alone prosecuting
> him?

> I'd say pretty slim at best. And Marco marked the area with a GPS. I'm not
> sure I would have.

Laser Beamed at Plane Leads to N.J. Man's Arrest

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48779-2005Jan4.html

Idaho: 2 Arrested for Pointing Laser

http://www.greenlaser.cn/idaho-2-arrested-for-pointing-laser/

and a bunch more.

Catching them is hard, prosecution easy.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Judah]

the warlock society > wrote in
oups.com:

> ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
> with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
> answer?

No conspiracy theories or anything. Just cynicism and/or pragmatism.

I just don't think I would spend the time and money to go around and hunt
down this guy after a one-time incident. If it happened a second time I would
probably do it.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Judah wrote:
> the warlock society > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>> ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
>> with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
>> answer?
>
> No conspiracy theories or anything. Just cynicism and/or pragmatism.
>
> I just don't think I would spend the time and money to go around and
> hunt down this guy after a one-time incident. If it happened a second
> time I would probably do it.

Well the second time might get another pilot or you in both eyes and you
will be wishing you'd taken the time.

[Marco Leon]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Judah wrote:
>> the warlock society > wrote in
>> oups.com:
>>
>>> ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
>>> with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
>>> answer?
>>
>> No conspiracy theories or anything. Just cynicism and/or pragmatism.
>>
>> I just don't think I would spend the time and money to go around and
>> hunt down this guy after a one-time incident. If it happened a second
>> time I would probably do it.
>
> Well the second time might get another pilot or you in both eyes and you
> will be wishing you'd taken the time.

Bradley Approach did inform me that there have been numerous laser incidents
in that area. The problem with commuters ans biz jets is that although they
pose the potential for the most damage from a severe incident, they are the
least likely to circle around and get a GPS coordinate. Had I not been on a
climb-out after a missed practoce approach, I probably would not have
circled either.

Marco

[the warlock society]

Judah wrote:
> the warlock society > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
> > ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
> > with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
> > answer?
>
> No conspiracy theories or anything. Just cynicism and/or pragmatism.
>
> I just don't think I would spend the time and money to go around and hunt
> down this guy after a one-time incident. If it happened a second time I would
> probably do it.

as a fellow cynic; I'd have to agree with you.

But like Giga said... maybe it'll save the next guy from the same
problem or worse.

Sometimes you gotta let the utilitarian voice veto the cynic's
voice... thats what my therapist keeps telling me anyways ;)

[Marco Leon]

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
>
> Damn, that's my home area.
> Thank's for taking the time to try to pinpoint the SOB.
> The next person to get blinded, either partially or fully,
> might be ME.

No problem. It came from the Wethersfield area, that much I know. If you're
in the area keep an eye out for it. If you see anything, let the New Haven
branch of the FBI know. Their phone number is on the www.fbi.gov website. I
don't usually fly in that area so the more pilots that are looking out for
this guy, the better the chances of him getting caught. They *can* catch
them as evidenced by past incidents.

Marco

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> What altitude where you at?
>
> I would bet that a kid with a handheld laser pointer might be very difficult
> to catch and prosecute, and I bet even a handheld laser pointer will create a
> flash in your eye at 2000 feet, even if the beam has diffused enough that the
> "operator" won't be able to tell for sure where it's hitting your plane...

If you're lucky, you will only see the diffused portion of the light, and not
the beam itself, which may damage your vision. It sounds like the OP saw only
the periphery, not the beam itself (which, as you indicate, would be extremely
difficult to aim with precision from the ground, unless the culprit also had
some sort of telescopic sight and a way to hold the laser steady). The beam
of a good quality laser (highly collimated, that is) will hardly spread out at
all over a distance of a few thousand feet and thus may still be only a
millimetre or two in diameter.

[Mxsmanic]

Marco Leon writes:

> I was at 1,700 feet. I used the Garmin 496 to mark the spot so it
> conveniently took note of the time and altitude as well. Switching it to the
> Automotive mode, I was able to narrow it down to a 6 block by two block area
> in a specific neighborhood in Connecticut.

I'm not optimistic about finding the culprit.

> There was definitely a flash and I lost my nightvision in the left eye for a
> little while which was a weird feeling. It was kind of like wearing glasses
> with a bug smudge on the left lense.

Did you see an ophthalmologist?

[Mxsmanic]

the warlock society writes:

> ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
> with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
> answer?

Apart from the potential futility of doing so, there's also the danger that
you'd get zapped with the laser again.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> the warlock society writes:
>
> > ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
> > with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
> > answer?
>
> Apart from the potential futility of doing so, there's also the danger that
> you'd get zapped with the laser again.

The same thing happened about a year and a half ago to a friend of
mine's son, who was approaching Detroit at night, in an airliner
cockpit. He and his copilot came out OK, but the pilot of a following
plane had some eye damage.

According to the story, that incident happened over one of the densest
concentrations of Muslims near Detroit. I have no feedback on whether or
not they caught the perps, or even who they were.

It seems that they would have to have at least a telescopic sight on the
laser and have that mounted on a rifle stock, so they could get a
precision aiming.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> What altitude where you at?
>>
>> I would bet that a kid with a handheld laser pointer might be very
>> difficult to catch and prosecute, and I bet even a handheld laser
>> pointer will create a flash in your eye at 2000 feet, even if the
>> beam has diffused enough that the "operator" won't be able to tell
>> for sure where it's hitting your plane...
>
> If you're lucky, you will only see the diffused portion of the light,
> and not the beam itself, which may damage your vision. It sounds like
> the OP saw only the periphery, not the beam itself (which, as you
> indicate, would be extremely difficult to aim with precision from the
> ground, unless the culprit also had some sort of telescopic sight and
> a way to hold the laser steady). The beam of a good quality laser
> (highly collimated, that is) will hardly spread out at all over a
> distance of a few thousand feet and thus may still be only a
> millimetre or two in diameter.
>

So, you going to put a laser pointer on the edge of your monitor now?


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Marco Leon writes:
>
>> I was at 1,700 feet. I used the Garmin 496 to mark the spot so it
>> conveniently took note of the time and altitude as well. Switching it
>> to the Automotive mode, I was able to narrow it down to a 6 block by
>> two block area in a specific neighborhood in Connecticut.
>
> I'm not optimistic about finding the culprit.


Snort! To bad you';re nto there. You proly got all of Jessica Fletcher's
moves down pat.

>
>> There was definitely a flash and I lost my nightvision in the left
>> eye for a little while which was a weird feeling. It was kind of like
>> wearing glasses with a bug smudge on the left lense.
>
> Did you see an ophthalmologist?
>

Why, did you?


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> the warlock society writes:
>
>> ok ill bite; why are you 'not sure you would have' marked the spot
>> with your GPS? Do I need to make a tinfoil hat before hearing your
>> answer?
>
> Apart from the potential futility of doing so, there's also the danger
> that you'd get zapped with the laser again.
>


Fjukkwit.

Like you'd know what it's like.


Bertie

[WingFlaps]

On Nov 13, 5:41 pm, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> The same thing happened about a year and a half ago to a friend of
> mine's son, who was approaching Detroit at night, in an airliner
> cockpit. He and his copilot came out OK, but the pilot of a following
> plane had some eye damage.

Eye damage would be so unlikely at 1000' from a laser pointer that I
doubt the veracity of this tale.

Cheers

[WingFlaps]

On Nov 13, 3:42 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
The beam
> of a good quality laser (highly collimated, that is) will hardly spread out at
> all over a distance of a few thousand feet and thus may still be only a
> millimetre or two in diameter.

Complete ********. Just buy a laser pointer and measure the spot size
after 50'. It's already cm wide. The cavity of laser diode is just
too short to produce such high degree of collimation...

Cheers

[WingFlaps]

On Nov 13, 3:13 pm, "Marco Leon" > wrote:
>
> Damn, that's my home area.
> Thank's for taking the time to try to pinpoint the SOB.
> The next person to get blinded, either partially or fully,
> might be ME.
>

C'mon let's have a reality check. Can you identify a single case of
actual vision damage at significant range from a laser pointer? Even
if all the light were collected by the eye and the eye were focused to
maximise energy delivery on the retina the energy of a laser pointer
is just too low to cause damage before the blink reflex protects the
eye. That's why they can be sold in stores... think about it!

Cheers

[Judah]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in
:

> Bradley Approach did inform me that there have been numerous laser
> incidents in that area. The problem with commuters ans biz jets is that
> although they pose the potential for the most damage from a severe
> incident, they are the least likely to circle around and get a GPS
> coordinate. Had I not been on a climb-out after a missed practoce
> approach, I probably would not have circled either.

I don't want to minimize what you did... I think it's admirable.

In fact, just bringing it up on this group has created an awareness that has
even changed my cynical opinion. I still don't know if I would circle around
and hunt the guy down. But where before the thought probably would not have
crossed my mind, now I might consider it...

[Marco Leon]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I don't want to minimize what you did... I think it's admirable.
>
> In fact, just bringing it up on this group has created an awareness that
> has
> even changed my cynical opinion. I still don't know if I would circle
> around
> and hunt the guy down. But where before the thought probably would not
> have
> crossed my mind, now I might consider it...

I wouldn't exactly call my actions "hunting down," it was just a matter of
getting a fix on his position for later use. I circled because I knew a fix
that far away was basically useless. I kept an eye on the guy's position
which was easy given the left hand turn. Fly over, hit enter twice on the
Garmin 496, then turn around on my way.

I reacted this way because it irked me that this was not an accidental
event. I'd be kicking myself for days if I did nothing. I'm glad you would
reconsider. If the guy actually got caught, just think of how satisfying it
would be.

Marco

[Morgans[_2_]]

"WingFlaps" > wrote
>
> Eye damage would be so unlikely at 1000' from a laser pointer that I
> doubt the veracity of this tale.

You should do some googling, and see the milliwatt outputs some of these new
green lasers have. Look under "handheld green laser" and look around some.

I'm surprised that you could get away _without_ eye damage, if you did look
in the direction of one, or if it glanced off of a reflective surface.
--
Jim in NC

[Gatt]

"WingFlaps" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Nov 13, 3:42 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> The beam
>> of a good quality laser (highly collimated, that is) will hardly spread
>> out at
>> all over a distance of a few thousand feet and thus may still be only a
>> millimetre or two in diameter.
>
> Complete ********. Just buy a laser pointer and measure the spot size
> after 50'. It's already cm wide. The cavity of laser diode is just
> too short to produce such high degree of collimation...

Garden-variety laser pointers aren't the same as the newer high-powered
green lasers, though, are they? (For example:
http://www.greenlaserbeam.com/ )

-c
not a physicist.

[B A R R Y]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:01:03 -0500, "Marco Leon" >
wrote:

>I reacted this way because it irked me that this was not an accidental
>event. I'd be kicking myself for days if I did nothing. I'm glad you would
>reconsider. If the guy actually got caught, just think of how satisfying it
>would be.

Guys...

I swapped private emails with Marco, 'cause I'm VERY familiar with the
area where it happened. As in the "riding my bicycle" familiar.

The area is an extremely noise sensitive area of mostly antique and
locally historic homes. Marco was told by the tower to turn left
after going missed. The published missed goes right. HFD has signs
on the runway entrances advising pilots how to avoid this area. The
area is marked as "noise sensitive" on NACO plates.

Read into that what you'd like.

[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> The area is an extremely noise sensitive area of mostly antique and
> locally historic homes. Marco was told by the tower to turn left
> after going missed. The published missed goes right. HFD has signs
> on the runway entrances advising pilots how to avoid this area. The
> area is marked as "noise sensitive" on NACO plates.
>
> Read into that what you'd like.

The implication is that some people in the area are selfish enough to think
that blindness and/or death are appropriate punishments for anyone who dares
to disturb their desire for silence.

[Mxsmanic]

Orval Fairbairn writes:

> It seems that they would have to have at least a telescopic sight on the
> laser and have that mounted on a rifle stock, so they could get a
> precision aiming.

It would have to be precise to within an inch or so, or the beam would have to
be relatively intense and spread slightly to make a larger target at a
distance. A good-quality laser beam doesn't diverge very quickly, which makes
it hard to hit a small target but greatly increases the damage if you succeed.

[Mxsmanic]

WingFlaps writes:

> Eye damage would be so unlikely at 1000' from a laser pointer that I
> doubt the veracity of this tale.

Hand-held laser pointers are not the problem. More powerful lasers are used
that can easily damage the eye. And the power of a laser doesn't diminish
taht much with distance, since the beam is tightly collimated.

[Mxsmanic]

WingFlaps writes:

> Complete ********. Just buy a laser pointer and measure the spot size
> after 50'. It's already cm wide.

Laser pointers are hardly the state of the art.

[Mxsmanic]

Gatt writes:

> Garden-variety laser pointers aren't the same as the newer high-powered
> green lasers, though, are they? (For example:
> http://www.greenlaserbeam.com/ )

No, they are not. They are still not the most collimated beams around, but
they are collimated enough to cover just about the area of a person's face at
a few thousand feet.

The total energy delivered to the eye in this case would be in the range of
microwatts at several thousand feet, and it would be virtually impossible to
accurately aim a handheld pointer at this range. So it would be more of a
nuisance to vision than a damage hazard.

Unfortunately, there are still more powerful lasers available. Most people
dramatically underestimate the hazards of laser light. I'd be nervous about
those green pointers just out of concern for my own vision. All you have to
do is accidentally aim it at a reflective surface, and next thing you know you
have a retinal burn.

[Mxsmanic]

WingFlaps writes:

> C'mon let's have a reality check. Can you identify a single case of
> actual vision damage at significant range from a laser pointer?

Yes. The FAA has documented them, and the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute
has been collecting documentation on laser illumination events and eye
injuries for over a decade.

> Even if all the light were collected by the eye and the eye were focused to
> maximise energy delivery on the retina the energy of a laser pointer
> is just too low to cause damage before the blink reflex protects the
> eye.

Not true. That would produce immediate eye damage. Ninety-five milliwatts
concentrated by a factor of 100,000 by an eye lens focused on infinity will
practically punch a hole through the retina even at very short exposures.
Even five milliwatts is dangerous.

> That's why they can be sold in stores... think about it!

I have. And it's a serious problem. If you think it's harmless, just look
down the beam of a few such lasers yourself and see how your vision works
after a while. If you're right, no problem. If you're wrong, well, I guess
you won't be reading USENET any more.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"B A R R Y" > wrote

> I swapped private emails with Marco, 'cause I'm VERY familiar with the
> area where it happened. As in the "riding my bicycle" familiar.
>
> The area is an extremely noise sensitive area of mostly antique and
> locally historic homes. Marco was told by the tower to turn left
> after going missed. The published missed goes right. HFD has signs
> on the runway entrances advising pilots how to avoid this area. The
> area is marked as "noise sensitive" on NACO plates.
>
> Read into that what you'd like.

I read into it, and I don't like what I read.

Basically, if you fly over rich guy's pretty house, and make noise, he feels it
is his right to try and blind you with a laser.

Kinda' goes past the reaches of decency, doesn't it? :-(
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"WingFlaps" > wrote > C'mon let's have a reality check. Can
you identify a single case of
> actual vision damage at significant range from a laser pointer? Even
> if all the light were collected by the eye and the eye were focused to
> maximise energy delivery on the retina the energy of a laser pointer
> is just too low to cause damage before the blink reflex protects the
> eye. That's why they can be sold in stores... think about it!

These are not the less than 5 mW pointers that your are accustomed to.

I have seen 295 mW lasers for sale on the web. That would be 59 times more
power ! ! !

Those are expensive but available.

A 50mW laser for sale for $150. That would make it 10 times as powerful. If a
red 5W laser can leave a dot in you vision, a 50 could definitely leave a
lasting effect.

The FAA and FBI have several cases on file, with vision damage. It is a real,
not imagined, problem.
--
Jim in NC

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Gatt writes:
>
>> Garden-variety laser pointers aren't the same as the newer
>> high-powered green lasers, though, are they? (For example:
>> http://www.greenlaserbeam.com/ )
>
> No, they are not. They are still not the most collimated beams
> around, but they are collimated enough to cover just about the area of
> a person's face at a few thousand feet.
>
> The total energy delivered to the eye in this case would be in the
> range of microwatts at several thousand feet, and it would be
> virtually impossible to accurately aim a handheld pointer at this
> range. So it would be more of a nuisance to vision than a damage
> hazard.
>
> Unfortunately, there are still more powerful lasers available. Most
> people dramatically underestimate the hazards of laser light. I'd be
> nervous about those green pointers just out of concern for my own
> vision. All you have to do is accidentally aim it at a reflective
> surface, and next thing you know you have a retinal burn



You;re an idiot and as usual, are missing the point altogether.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> WingFlaps writes:
>
>> C'mon let's have a reality check. Can you identify a single case of
>> actual vision damage at significant range from a laser pointer?
>
> Yes. The FAA has documented them, and the Civil Aerospace Medical
> Institute has been collecting documentation on laser illumination
> events and eye injuries for over a decade.
>
>> Even if all the light were collected by the eye and the eye were
>> focused to maximise energy delivery on the retina the energy of a
>> laser pointer is just too low to cause damage before the blink reflex
>> protects the eye.
>
> Not true. That would produce immediate eye damage. Ninety-five
> milliwatts concentrated by a factor of 100,000 by an eye lens focused
> on infinity will practically punch a hole through the retina even at
> very short exposures. Even five milliwatts is dangerous.
>
>> That's why they can be sold in stores... think about it!
>
> I have.

No, you haven't/ You've jerked off to it, just like you do with everything
other problem outside getting your single extension cord to take all of
your electrical devices.

And it's a serious problem.

Not if you sit in your room all day jerking off..

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> WingFlaps writes:
>
>> Complete ********. Just buy a laser pointer and measure the spot size
>> after 50'. It's already cm wide.
>
> Laser pointers are hardly the state of the art.


Fjukkwit, nobody said they were.




Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> WingFlaps writes:
>
>> Eye damage would be so unlikely at 1000' from a laser pointer that I
>> doubt the veracity of this tale.
>
> Hand-held laser pointers are not the problem. More powerful lasers
> are used that can easily damage the eye. And the power of a laser
> doesn't diminish taht much with distance, since the beam is tightly
> collimated.
>




Which is the opposite of what you said elsewhere..


Fjukkwit.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Orval Fairbairn writes:
>
>> It seems that they would have to have at least a telescopic sight on
>> the laser and have that mounted on a rifle stock, so they could get a
>> precision aiming.
>
> It would have to be precise to within an inch or so, or the beam would
> have to be relatively intense and spread slightly to make a larger
> target at a distance. A good-quality laser beam doesn't diverge very
> quickly, which makes it hard to hit a small target but greatly
> increases the damage if you succeed.



You're an idiot.


Bertie
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> B A R R Y writes:
>
>> The area is an extremely noise sensitive area of mostly antique and
>> locally historic homes. Marco was told by the tower to turn left
>> after going missed. The published missed goes right. HFD has signs
>> on the runway entrances advising pilots how to avoid this area. The
>> area is marked as "noise sensitive" on NACO plates.
>>
>> Read into that what you'd like.
>
> The implication is that some people in the area are selfish enough to
> think that blindness and/or death are appropriate punishments for
> anyone who dares to disturb their desire for silence.
>


a complete idiot.



Bertie

[Judah]

B A R R Y > wrote in
:

> Guys...
>
> I swapped private emails with Marco, 'cause I'm VERY familiar with the
> area where it happened. As in the "riding my bicycle" familiar.
>
> The area is an extremely noise sensitive area of mostly antique and
> locally historic homes. Marco was told by the tower to turn left
> after going missed. The published missed goes right. HFD has signs
> on the runway entrances advising pilots how to avoid this area. The
> area is marked as "noise sensitive" on NACO plates.

I hope you are able to help Marco find the responsible person. Even if it was
just a teenage "rich kid" who did it as a prank, and he ends up getting just
a slap on the wrist, it should be publicized so as to point out just how
serious the damage and consequences of such pranks can be.

Then again, if all he gets is a slap on the wrist, and it is publicized, the
result may be that we will see more, not fewer, instances of this sort of
thing...

Fry the *******!!!! ;)

[Marco Leon[_4_]]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:01:03 -0500, "Marco Leon" >
> wrote:
>
>>I reacted this way because it irked me that this was not an accidental
>>event. I'd be kicking myself for days if I did nothing. I'm glad you would
>>reconsider. If the guy actually got caught, just think of how satisfying
>>it
>>would be.
>
> Guys...
>
> I swapped private emails with Marco, 'cause I'm VERY familiar with the
> area where it happened. As in the "riding my bicycle" familiar.
>
> The area is an extremely noise sensitive area of mostly antique and
> locally historic homes. Marco was told by the tower to turn left
> after going missed. The published missed goes right. HFD has signs
> on the runway entrances advising pilots how to avoid this area. The
> area is marked as "noise sensitive" on NACO plates.
>
> Read into that what you'd like.

Then their high-priced lawyers should be very happy when the FBI gives them
a knock on their door.

Reading into it from every possible angle, I fail to see how shining a laser
into an aircraft is even remotely justified.

Marco

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Marco Leon" > wrote:


> > The area is an extremely noise sensitive area of mostly antique and
> > locally historic homes. Marco was told by the tower to turn left
> > after going missed. The published missed goes right. HFD has signs
> > on the runway entrances advising pilots how to avoid this area. The
> > area is marked as "noise sensitive" on NACO plates.
> >
> > Read into that what you'd like.
>
> Then their high-priced lawyers should be very happy when the FBI gives them
> a knock on their door.
>
> Reading into it from every possible angle, I fail to see how shining a laser
> into an aircraft is even remotely justified.
>
> Marco

Noise Nazis are a completely different breed. The anti-Santa Monica
crowd used to operate a bulletin board but discontinued it after pilots
started posting there, too. Some of the NNs applauded when somebody had
a crash.

Palo Alto at one time advised a 30 deg right turn after takeoff on 30,
due to East Palo Alto residents taking potshots at airplanes. East PA is
(was) a "low-income" black community with the usual drug and violence
problems.

Those people, like "jgrove', "Bill MulCahy" and "skylune" are, simply
put, nuts and are capable of anything to punish those of us who fly.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Judah wrote:
>
> I hope you are able to help Marco find the responsible person. Even if it was
> just a teenage "rich kid" who did it as a prank,

The area isn't THAT rich, just sensitive, mostly small, 200 year-old
homes. Some are fantastic, some are dumps.

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

"Marco Leon" > writes:
> "Gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> Possibly. On the other hand, there just might be an annoying teenager in
>> the neighborhood who has been harassing neighbors, traffic, pets, etc.
>> The thing with laser-geeks is they can't seem to control themselves.
>> And, who knows...maybe one of those neighbors is also a pilot.
>>
>>>And Marco marked the area with a GPS. I'm not sure I would have.
>>
>> Can't hurt.
>
> I was wondering on the chances of finding the guy as well but after doing a
> search on the term "laser" on the FBI website, they seem to be able to find
> at least a few of them. Some cases were laughable (i.e. the gut who painted
> a police helicopter equipped with night vision) and others did not seem as
> easy to catch. But catch they did.

I once got a warning about a laser event as I was flying over San
Jose. They apparently sent out a police helicopter and a police
Cessna to the area to try and "draw fire" so they could locate the
guy.

Chris

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:24:02 GMT, Judah > wrote:

>"Marco Leon" > wrote in
:
>
>> I filled out the form on AC 70-2 and faxed it in. I was thinking about
>> notifying the aviation dept of Hartford's local PD since they would be
>> both familiar with the area and in the best position to catch the
>> *******. Thoughts?
>
>What altitude where you at?
>
>I would bet that a kid with a handheld laser pointer might be very difficult
>to catch and prosecute, and I bet even a handheld laser pointer will create a
>flash in your eye at 2000 feet, even if the beam has diffused enough that the
>"operator" won't be able to tell for sure where it's hitting your plane...

In astronomy we use the little red pointers (low power) and they form
a line you can follow for a long way when pointing out deep sky
objects even when the air appears to be very clear. As for bright? I
can easily see the spot of light on a house over 500 feet away and the
house isn't even white. You can briefly lose the night vision in an
eye even from a momentary reflection from the little low powered ones.
Imagine what it'd be like to be "flashed" by one of the higher
intensity ones.

Roger (K8RI)

>
>I just hope that the noise grumblers don't get the same idea...

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Christopher Brian Colohan wrote:
>
> I once got a warning about a laser event as I was flying over San
> Jose. They apparently sent out a police helicopter and a police
> Cessna to the area to try and "draw fire" so they could locate the
> guy.

The airport where Marco got lit up is home base for a State Police heli.