contest number question

[Gary Emerson]

I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.

I'm thinking of removing my under wing contest number and not replacing
it - is anyone aware of any contest where not having a contest number
under the wing has been an issue? With GPS scoring, I'm betting this is
a moot point.


TIA

Gary

[[email protected]]

On Nov 14, 6:42 am, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
> the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.
>
> I'm thinking of removing my under wing contest number and not replacing
> it - is anyone aware of any contest where not having a contest number
> under the wing has been an issue? With GPS scoring, I'm betting this is
> a moot point.
>
> TIA
>
> Gary

How will the pilot below you trying to make a safety call to you
identify you?
It is not needed for start identification, but there are safety
implications.
The CD has a right to require you to have your number under the wing.
The
most recent I recall was at the Sports Nats last year.
Cheers UH

[toad]

On Nov 14, 6:42 am, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
> the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.
>
> I'm thinking of removing my under wing contest number and not replacing
> it - is anyone aware of any contest where not having a contest number
> under the wing has been an issue? With GPS scoring, I'm betting this is
> a moot point.
>
> TIA
>
> Gary

It still is in the US rules, I just checked.

It obviously is not needed for scoring, but it is useful for safety
call on the radio. From some positions, it's hard to read the tail
markings, but possible to read the wing markings.

Todd Smith
3S

[Mike the Strike]

On Nov 14, 4:42 am, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
> the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.
>
> I'm thinking of removing my under wing contest number and not replacing
> it - is anyone aware of any contest where not having a contest number
> under the wing has been an issue? With GPS scoring, I'm betting this is
> a moot point.
>
> TIA
>
> Gary

At Region 9 in Parowan last year, the CD penalized several violators
of this rule on safety grounds. In a gaggle, you need to know who's
above you. Some creative mods were made with insulating tape.

Mike

[JJ Sinclair]

I got caught at Parowan this year, also. my defense was; "Everybody
knows who's flying the only Genesis in this contest". That didn't work
and I was forced to put on numbers using a Crayon. Another guy put his
numbers on using wing tape...........................White wing tape!
Probably not a bad rule except for a couple of glaring problems. If
the numbers are there purely for recognition in a gaggle, shouldn't
they be oriented to be read from the rear, not from the front? Also,
we can only identify those above us in a gaggle, how do we identify
those below us?...........................lets not go there, I used up
all my Crayons!
JJ

> > it - is anyone aware of any contest where not having a contest number
> > under the wing has been an issue? With GPS scoring, I'm betting this is
> > a moot point.
>
> > TIA
>
> > Gary
>
> At Region 9 in Parowan last year, the CD penalized several violators
> of this rule on safety grounds. In a gaggle, you need to know who's
> above you. Some creative mods were made with insulating tape.
>
> Mike

[toad]

On Nov 14, 10:52 am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> I got caught at Parowan this year, also. my defense was; "Everybody
> knows who's flying the only Genesis in this contest". That didn't work
> and I was forced to put on numbers using a Crayon. Another guy put his
> numbers on using wing tape...........................White wing tape!
> Probably not a bad rule except for a couple of glaring problems. If
> the numbers are there purely for recognition in a gaggle, shouldn't
> they be oriented to be read from the rear, not from the front? Also,
> we can only identify those above us in a gaggle, how do we identify
> those below us?...........................lets not go there, I used up
> all my Crayons!
> JJ

If I am directly above another glider, I won't be able to see any
markings, but if I am above and to the side, I can see the tail.
It's when directly below (bad place to be, I know) that I can't see
the tail ID, but can see the wing.

Also, people shouldn't be using fancy fonts that make the ID
unreadable.

Todd
3S

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Gary Emerson wrote:
>I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
>the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.

>
>Gary

I appreciate being able to radio-call the fella over there who doesn't appear
to see me.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200711/1

[Udo]

Why would you call the other pilot if you see him?
There are only limited circumstances in which a call is appropriate.
I never could under stand why one would make a call
if the calling pilot is in a 180 degree cone behind the pilot.
If you feel under thread from that pilot do not go near him.
I can not stand it when a call is made "I am passing from behind
overhead"
or similar announcements when it is clear that pilot is showing poor
judgment.
Udo


On Nov 14, 12:28 pm, "Kloudy via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote:
> Gary Emerson wrote:
> >I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
> >the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.
>
> >Gary
>
> I appreciate being able to radio-call the fella over there who doesn't appear
> to see me.
>
> --
> Message posted via AviationKB.comhttp://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200711/1

[Papa3]

On Nov 14, 1:16 pm, Udo > wrote:
> Why would you call the other pilot if you see him?
> There are only limited circumstances in which a call is appropriate.
> I never could under stand why one would make a call
> if the calling pilot is in a 180 degree cone behind the pilot.
> If you feel under thread from that pilot do not go near him.
> I can not stand it when a call is made "I am passing from behind
> overhead"
> or similar announcements when it is clear that pilot is showing poor
> judgment.
> Udo
>
> On Nov 14, 12:28 pm, "Kloudy via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Gary Emerson wrote:
> > >I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
> > >the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.
>
> > >Gary
>
> > I appreciate being able to radio-call the fella over there who doesn't appear
> > to see me.
>
> > --
> > Message posted via AviationKB.comhttp://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200711/1- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Udo,

How about the following. Closing (slowly) on the guy in front of you
on the ridge. You need to pass below/inside but doing this means
that you will lose sight of him shortly after passing. I'd sure like
the guy to know what's about to happen so he doesn't choose that
moment to push it closer to the trees. It takes what seems like an
eternity to get clear in that situation. In that case, what would be
nice to hear is:

P3: "Alpha Bravo, Papa 3 is passing you on the inside low"
AB: "Click-click" or "Alpha Bravo" or "Alpha Bravo roger" or "I've
got you; you're clear"

[J a c k[_2_]]

Udo wrote:

> Why would you call the other pilot if you see him?
> There are only limited circumstances in which a call is appropriate.
> I never could under stand why one would make a call
> if the calling pilot is in a 180 degree cone behind the pilot.
> If you feel under thread from that pilot do not go near him.
> I can not stand it when a call is made "I am passing from behind
> overhead" or similar announcements when it is clear that pilot is showing poor
> judgment.


I prefer to stay out of the potential maneuvering area of another ship.
When I cannot do that I want him to know where I am, because there are
positions from which an abrupt maneuver by another ship will make a
collision nearly unavoidable. He may be less likely to begin a four-g
push than an abrupt pull-up, but you never really know.

There are other things to watch in the sky which may cause him to
maneuver abruptly in ways I do not anticipate and this may complicate my
avoidance of those other hazards.

The possible scenarios are too numerous to bother with here, but I see
no reason not to share knowledge that can enhance safety.

The fact that radio procedures are normally too informal and
undisciplined is a different problem. It does not justify reluctance to
trade useful information.



Jack

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Udo wrote:
>Why would you call the other pilot if you see him?

So I can tell him that an ATR, Piper, Cessna (add your brand here) is about
to run his ass down.

Nearly happened to me. And I appreciate the fella who let me know.

--
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http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200711/1

[Ken Kochanski (KK)]

Perhaps we should have on the top of the wing as well - safety
benefits are small - smile generation benefits are high ... :-)

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

J a c k wrote:
>> Why would you call the other pilot if you see him?

>
>The fact that radio procedures are normally too informal and
>undisciplined is a different problem. It does not justify reluctance to
>trade useful information.
>
>Jack

Thanks Jack. That was very well said. I fully agree.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200711/1

[bagmaker]

I haven't even looked, but I'm guessing there is still a requirement in
the contest "rules" to have contest numbers under the wing, etc.

I'm thinking of removing my under wing contest number and not replacing
it - is anyone aware of any contest where not having a contest number
under the wing has been an issue? With GPS scoring, I'm betting this is
a moot point.

TIA

Gary

The underside of the wing is also the high pressure airflow side.

What does the lettering do to the performance of the wing?
Possibly OK if its crayon, but thick tape? yucko

Bagger

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Ken Kochanski (KK) wrote:
> Perhaps we should have on the top of the wing as well - safety
> benefits are small - smile generation benefits are high ... :-)
>
Not in the UK on a glass glider - BGA rules forbid it (dark areas
inboard of the tip). IIRC the same applies in the US.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Jamie Shore]

Is anybody aware of any contest committee talk (or actual rule change) of the Under-the-Wing-Contest-ID requirement going away in the US?

I've heard..
"..IGC does not require any more competition signs on the wing,.."

SSA Website says..
http://www.ssa.org/ContestCommittee?show=blog&id=1552

Thanks,
Jamie Shore

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 1:38:21 PM UTC-5, Jamie Shore wrote:
> Is anybody aware of any contest committee talk (or actual rule change) of the Under-the-Wing-Contest-ID requirement going away in the US?
>
> I've heard..
> "..IGC does not require any more competition signs on the wing,.."
>
> SSA Website says..
> http://www.ssa.org/ContestCommittee?show=blog&id=1552
>
> Thanks,
> Jamie Shore

No rule change is contemplated. We believe being able to easily identify a competitor can enhance safety.
UH

[Tim Taylor]

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 11:38:21 AM UTC-7, Jamie Shore wrote:
> Is anybody aware of any contest committee talk (or actual rule change) of the Under-the-Wing-Contest-ID requirement going away in the US?
>
> I've heard..
> "..IGC does not require any more competition signs on the wing,.."
>
> SSA Website says..
> http://www.ssa.org/ContestCommittee?show=blog&id=1552
>
> Thanks,
> Jamie Shore

I second UH's statement. Under wing numbers are no longer used for scoring but for glider to glider identification and communication. Hard to tell YY he/she is about to hit you if you don't know who it is. "White glider, I am on your right" does not work in a contest Read and follow the rules for size and color. We have too many gliders with light grey number colors and script letters that are not legal at contests. As JJ said ten years ago, we have one Diana that should not be allowed to fly because of script contest ID, but he is easy to identify. For fun we could file a protest at a contest just to make those without proper ID scramble.

[James Hamilton[_2_]]

At 00:10 02 February 2018, Tim Taylor wrote:
>On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 11:38:21 AM UTC-7, Jamie Shore wrote:
>> Is anybody aware of any contest committee talk (or actual rule change)
>of=
> the Under-the-Wing-Contest-ID requirement going away in the US?
>>=20
>> I've heard..
>> "..IGC does not require any more competition signs on the wing,.."
>>=20
>> SSA Website says..
>> http://www.ssa.org/ContestCommittee?show=3Dblog&id=3D1552
>>=20
>> Thanks,=20
>> Jamie Shore
>
>I second UH's statement. Under wing numbers are no longer used for
>scoring=
> but for glider to glider identification and communication. Hard to tell
>YY=
> he/she is about to hit you if you don't know who it is. "White glider,
I
>=
>am on your right" does not work in a contest Read and follow the rules
>for=
> size and color. We have too many gliders with light grey number colors
>an=
>d script letters that are not legal at contests. As JJ said ten years
>ago,=
> we have one Diana that should not be allowed to fly because of script
>cont=
>est ID, but he is easy to identify. For fun we could file a protest at a
>c=
>ontest just to make those without proper ID scramble.=20
>
>Would anyone care to define this statement from the SSA site regarding the
size of contest numbers: "◦Numbers shall be as large as possible
consistent with form C position and clearance requirements."?

[Tim Taylor]

6.2.2 The Contest ID shall be displayed in a contrasting color on both sides of the vertical tail (minimum height 12 inches) and
under the right wing (bottom of ID toward the trailing edge of the wing; minimum height is the smaller of 24 inches or 90% of the
wing chord excluding a control surface).

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-8, Tim Taylor wrote:
> 6.2.2 The Contest ID shall be displayed in a contrasting color on both sides of the vertical tail (minimum height 12 inches) and
> under the right wing (bottom of ID toward the trailing edge of the wing; minimum height is the smaller of 24 inches or 90% of the
> wing chord excluding a control surface).


For the newbies - we don't put dark (contrasting) colors on the top of wings due to the potential overheating of that area of fiberglass. That's a manufacturer restriction/guidance. This is why you only see "anti-collision" markings on tips and rudders. When we have enough pilots flying inverted for long periods, then we can talk about eliminating under-wing markings.... For the folks who use soft grey numbers - silly. Useless.

For temporary numbers at a comp, use dark blue or black electrical tape. Easy on, easy off. Seems a just punishment for the silly ones who wanted to go 'stealth'. They'll be all noodled up over the loss of performance....

Cindy B

[Jamie Shore]

The IGC rules changed between 2015 and 2016 regarding the wing contest number requirements.

2015 IGC Rule 4.3.1
4.3.1 The contest numbers, as validated by the Organisers, shall be displayed:
a. On the underside of the right wing, approximately 2.5 m from the centreline of
the sailplane with the top of the figures or letters towards the wing leading
edge. The height of the letters or figures should be not less than
approximately 80% of the wing chord.
b. On both sides of the tail fin and/or rudder. These must be at least 30 cm
high.
c. On the glider trailer and crew car.

2016 IGC Rule
4.3.1 The contest numbers, as validated by the Organisers, shall be displayed:
a. On both sides of the tail fin and/or rudder. These should be at least 30 cm
high.
b. On the glider trailer and crew car.

Link to the the IGC 2017 Rules
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc3a_2017b.pdf

Jamie Shore

[Steve Koerner]

Nobody has pointed out that markings in general and especially big markings on the wing have a serious downside related to servicing the finish.

As far as getting an ID for radio communication, that doesn't really happen very much and the tail marking is far more useful for that particular purpose anyway. PowerFlarm provides a good way to get a nearby contest number as well.

The US should certainly adopt this IGC standard. Thanks for pointing that out Jamie.