O2 filling

[Robert M. Gary]

With FBOs now charging $50-$100 to fill a tank I've started calling
around to see where else I can get O2 in the Sacramento area. It
appears that all the welding gas companies no longer fill bottles at
all. They exchange bottles and then send them off to a central plant
to refill. One company said they would not do it because they don't
have the equipment to provide some sort of "breathable" certificate
and would generate too much liability. The other welding O2 company
said it would take 3-4 weeks if they had to send my bottle out to the
main plant to be filled vs. exchange it for a welding tank.
I also called around for medical O2. Again, no one seems to fill
medical bottles. They all come to your house and exchange cylinders.

So has anyone successfully been able to fill an aviation bottle
anywhere other than an FBO? What about getting one medical bottle, and
filling from that everytime?

Interestingly, my grandmother uses O2 and she has an O2 generating
machine at her house (she fills her own portable bottles with medical
O2). However, the fittings for her cylinders don't look anything like
what I have.

-Robert

[Viperdoc]

You can use welding oxygen- see aviation consumer as well as the articles in
Avweb for making your own system. Nelson and Mountain High make
transfillers.

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Nov 14, 1:15 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> With FBOs now charging $50-$100 to fill a tank I've started calling
> around to see where else I can get O2 in the Sacramento area. It

Have you checked with a scuba dive shop? I had mine filled at a
shop in NY. The shop owner did have to look around for the right
fitting. If your local shop does not have the correct fitting, they
can always order it or you can ask them to order one for you and keep
it for future uses at other location.

Hai Longworth

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 14, 11:18 am, Longworth > wrote:
> On Nov 14, 1:15 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > With FBOs now charging $50-$100 to fill a tank I've started calling
> > around to see where else I can get O2 in the Sacramento area. It
>
> Have you checked with a scuba dive shop? I had mine filled at a
> shop in NY. The shop owner did have to look around for the right
> fitting. If your local shop does not have the correct fitting, they
> can always order it or you can ask them to order one for you and keep
> it for future uses at other location.

Do Scuba guys use O2? I thought they used air?

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 14, 10:58 am, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
> You can use welding oxygen- see aviation consumer as well as the articles in
> Avweb for making your own system. Nelson and Mountain High make
> transfillers.

I really don't want to give up my garage in having to house giant
bottles though.

-Robert

[Stefan]

Robert M. Gary schrieb:

> Do Scuba guys use O2? I thought they used air?

Of course they don't breath pure O2. However, some "advanced" divers
sometimes don't just use compressed air, but their own mixture. Even
more advanced divers sometimes use apparati which mix pure O2 with
whatever they want on the fly while under water.

So a specialized scuba shop might be able to provide you with pure O2.

[Stefan]

Viperdoc schrieb:

> You can use welding oxygen- see aviation consumer as well as the articles in

Be careful with welding oxygen. While it is true that all oxygen is made
in the same machine, it's treated differently afterwards. Welding oxygen
is just filled in whatever exchange bottle is brought back from some
unknown former customer without any control whatsoever. So you never
know what is *really* in the bottle.

If you bring and have refilled your own bottle and are absolutely sure
that is is really your own bottle which has been refilled, then welding
O2 should be fine.

What many glider operators do is to buy a big bottle of medicinal O2 and
refill their small bottle from it.

[Viperdoc]

You could get a prescription and then use a medical bottle, which has a
different fitting. They tend to be steel tanks, and heavy, and getting a
four place regulator could be difficult. However, you could do the exchange
thing, and it likely would be a lot cheaper.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:1195064132.130226.145610
@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

> With FBOs now charging $50-$100 to fill a tank I've started calling
> around to see where else I can get O2 in the Sacramento area. It
> appears that all the welding gas companies no longer fill bottles at
> all. They exchange bottles and then send them off to a central plant
> to refill. One company said they would not do it because they don't
> have the equipment to provide some sort of "breathable" certificate
> and would generate too much liability. The other welding O2 company
> said it would take 3-4 weeks if they had to send my bottle out to the
> main plant to be filled vs. exchange it for a welding tank.
> I also called around for medical O2. Again, no one seems to fill
> medical bottles. They all come to your house and exchange cylinders.
>
> So has anyone successfully been able to fill an aviation bottle
> anywhere other than an FBO? What about getting one medical bottle, and
> filling from that everytime?
>
> Interestingly, my grandmother uses O2 and she has an O2 generating
> machine at her house (she fills her own portable bottles with medical
> O2). However, the fittings for her cylinders don't look anything like
> what I have.
>

Yeah, I was desperate for some O2 for welding one day and went up and took
my M in L's portable, but no dice. For a while, on one type I was flying,
the bottles had to be removed for refill, which drove engineering nuts.
I can tell you one thing, you need to be careful wit O2, there are all
sorts of cooties in a bad bottle and they can hurt you.



Bertie

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Nov 14, 2:33 pm, Stefan > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary schrieb:
>
> > Do Scuba guys use O2? I thought they used air?
>
> Of course they don't breath pure O2. However, some "advanced" divers
> sometimes don't just use compressed air, but their own mixture. Even
> more advanced divers sometimes use apparati which mix pure O2 with
> whatever they want on the fly while under water.
>
> So a specialized scuba shop might be able to provide you with pure O2.

Enriched Air Nitrox (32 to 36%O2) has become more and common in
scuba diving. Divers at any level can get training to use Nitrox
since Nitrox certification card is required to get Nitrox filled
tanks. We got Nitrox certified at the same time with our Open water
(entry level) scuba dving training and prefer to dive with Nitrox as
much as possible. Diving with Nitrox especially in multiple days
repetitive diving trip makes a huge difference in fatigue level, and
of course increases safety margin with regards to getting the bend.
Nitrox is available in many if not all dive shops. Since the shop
does their own mixing of air and O2, they do have pure O2 tanks to
fill aviation bottles.

Hai Longworth

[Dallas]

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:46:39 GMT, Viperdoc wrote:

> You could get a prescription and then use a medical bottle

I distinctly remember reading that medical O2 was not acceptable (legal?)
for aviation.

Something about the humidity being too high and freezing in the valve.

--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:39:19 -0600, Dallas wrote:

> I distinctly remember reading that medical O2 was not acceptable (legal?)
> for aviation.

Never mind.

(I did read or hear someone say that... but it appears to incorrect.)

Here's a good article:
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html


"Oxygen is oxygen. It is the substance that matters, not the intended
purpose. These days, welding, medical, and aviation oxygen are exactly the
same. All three come from the same tank of liquid oxygen (LOX). The
liquified form is the cleanest, purest, driest form of oxygen (or any
substance) you'll find anywhere."


--
Dallas

[Maxwell]

"Dallas" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:46:39 GMT, Viperdoc wrote:
>
>> You could get a prescription and then use a medical bottle
>
> I distinctly remember reading that medical O2 was not acceptable (legal?)
> for aviation.
>
> Something about the humidity being too high and freezing in the valve.
>
> --

That's always been my take on it to Dallas, per our suppliers. Medical and
industrial are filled from the same source. Aviation is essentially the
same, but has to be dryer to avoid freezing in extremely low temps.

Precautions taken to avoid impurities in the filling process might differ.
But I bet there are some industrial OX users that are pretty picky about
getting clean pure OX as well. Not everyone just uses it simply for welding
and cutting.

[Stefan]

Dallas schrieb:

> "Oxygen is oxygen. It is the substance that matters, not the intended
> purpose. These days, welding, medical, and aviation oxygen are exactly the
> same. All three come from the same tank of liquid oxygen (LOX). The
> liquified form is the cleanest, purest, driest form of oxygen (or any
> substance) you'll find anywhere."

Sure. But you don't care about the oxygen in the manufactorer's tank,
it's the oxygen in the bottle that you care about. It's the filling
process which makes all the difference.

[Stefan]

Maxwell schrieb:

> But I bet there are some industrial OX users that are pretty picky about
> getting clean pure OX as well. Not everyone just uses it simply for welding
> and cutting.

For those applications, the manufactorers offer *really* pure oxygen,
which happens to cost even more than aviation O2.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 14, 3:52 pm, "Maxwell" > wrote:
> "Dallas" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:46:39 GMT, Viperdoc wrote:
>
> >> You could get a prescription and then use a medical bottle
>
> > I distinctly remember reading that medical O2 was not acceptable (legal?)
> > for aviation.
>
> > Something about the humidity being too high and freezing in the valve.
>
> > --
>
> That's always been my take on it to Dallas, per our suppliers. Medical and
> industrial are filled from the same source. Aviation is essentially the
> same, but has to be dryer to avoid freezing in extremely low temps.
>
> Precautions taken to avoid impurities in the filling process might differ.
> But I bet there are some industrial OX users that are pretty picky about
> getting clean pure OX as well. Not everyone just uses it simply for welding
> and cutting.

According to the gas company I spoke with, all 3 grades of O2 come
from the same source. Medical O2 adds the moisture after the O2 comes
from the bottle (to avoid drying people out). The difference
(according to the gas company) is the certification. When they fill an
aviation bottle they must test it for use in aviation. That test
results in a certification of the O2 in the bottle. I'm not sure if
the FBO's do that or if they are somehow able to certify their main
bottles.

-Robert

[Cary]

On Nov 14, 12:15 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> With FBOs now charging $50-$100 to fill a tank I've started calling
> around to see where else I can get O2 in the Sacramento area.
....cut...
> -Robert

At Providence (KPVD) earlier this year they wanted $150 to fill my
little portable tank!!

Cary

[Dave[_5_]]

On Nov 14, 2:33 pm, Stefan > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary schrieb:
>
> > Do Scuba guys use O2? I thought they used air?
>
> Of course they don't breath pure O2. However, some "advanced" divers
> sometimes don't just use compressed air, but their own mixture. Even
> more advanced divers sometimes use apparati which mix pure O2 with
> whatever they want on the fly while under water.
>
> So a specialized scuba shop might be able to provide you with pure O2.

I happened to visit a SCUBA shop the other day, and can confirm that
they do have bottles of oxygen and compressed air - and the facilities
for mixing them as desired. See the comment on Nitrox elsewhere in the
thread. Since the O2 is for breathing apparatus I doubt that they
would have any reservations about fillling an aviation bottle from
their supply.

David Johnson

[Dave S]

Dallas wrote:

>
> Something about the humidity being too high and freezing in the valve.
>

THIS IS PURE BS.

There is essentially NO moisture in the tank of medical oxygen - for the
same reasons there is no moisture in aviation or welders oxygen. Any
moisture or humidification in a medical stream is added at the point of
use, AFTER the flowmeter.

Any doctor, nurse, paramedic, EMT, respiratory therapist or gas vendor
can vouch for this.

Dave

[Dave S]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
When they fill an
> aviation bottle they must test it for use in aviation. That test
> results in a certification of the O2 in the bottle. I'm not sure if
> the FBO's do that or if they are somehow able to certify their main
> bottles.
>
> -Robert

The test is done at the gas plant where the bottles are filled. If the
whole batch passes, the tanks pass too. The FBO's involvement is getting
the bottles delivered by the vendor, using the bottles, and having the
bottles picked back up by the vendor.

Medical Grade handling changed about 10 years ago. Now exhausted medical
bottles are sucked to vacuum to remove any possible contamination. Then
they are filled at the gas plant. The bottles have serial numbers. There
is record keeping. This adds to the cost. From $2/month bottle rental to
$10/month bottle rental.

Before 10 years ago, filling a medical bottle was no different than
filling a welding bottle or filling an aviation bottle. You hooked up,
you filled, you went and used it.

If you NEVER let the small bottle go completely empty, and keep what the
medical industry called a "safe residual" pressure (200 psi)in it,
contaminants would never enter the system. The whole change in medical
bottle handling was to fix a "problem" that was caused by misuse in the
first place, and really wasn't a problem in the first place if you
didn't leave an empty bottle OPEN to atmosphere for days on end.

You can buy a little two bottle cart at a welding shop, put two M
cylinders of medical or welding grade.. your choice.. put a little
manifold and filling pigtail.. and stand it in the corner of your
garage, and chain it upright for safety. You will have at least as safe
transfilling as was acceptable in the medical industry for YEARS until
recently.

[The Visitor[_2_]]

Probably only a gas vendor would know.
Anybody ask one????




Dave S wrote:

> Dallas wrote:
>
>>
>> Something about the humidity being too high and freezing in the valve.
>
>
> THIS IS PURE BS.
>
> There is essentially NO moisture in the tank of medical oxygen - for the
> same reasons there is no moisture in aviation or welders oxygen. Any
> moisture or humidification in a medical stream is added at the point of
> use, AFTER the flowmeter.
>
> Any doctor, nurse, paramedic, EMT, respiratory therapist or gas vendor
> can vouch for this.
>
> Dave

[Dave S]

Cary wrote:
> On Nov 14, 12:15 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>> With FBOs now charging $50-$100 to fill a tank I've started calling
>> around to see where else I can get O2 in the Sacramento area.
> ...cut...
>> -Robert
>
> At Providence (KPVD) earlier this year they wanted $150 to fill my
> little portable tank!!
>
> Cary
>
I'm guessing you are paying 20 fold what the gas is really worth - its
been about 3 years since i sat down and priced all this. For that kind
of money you could get many many tankfulls of gas if you did your own
transfilling. EVEN WITH MEDICAL GRADE IN THE BIG TANKS.

[Dan[_1_]]

So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
the transfilling equipment does not make sense.

--Dan

[Ron Natalie]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> With FBOs now charging $50-$100 to fill a tank I've started calling
> around to see where else I can get O2 in the Sacramento area.

The regional oxygen company (Roberts Oxygen) it he DC area primarily
handles the welding market with a secondary market for the medical
arena. My local office (just north of Dulles airport) doesn't fill
O2 bottles of any sort, just exchange them. The plant over by
GAI fills them. I can take my cylinder to the local office and they
will send it over to be filled and back (two day turn around).

Call around.

The only real difference to them as to welders/medical/diving/ABO is what
paper they give you back with the bottle. The O2 is all the same.
Cryogenic separation and the fact you don't want to screw around
with high pressure O2 in general means they treat them all to a
common high standard.

[Ron Natalie]

Dave S wrote:

>
> Any doctor, nurse, paramedic, EMT, respiratory therapist or gas vendor
> can vouch for this.
>
I was a paramedic and heavily into the equipment maintenance in our
fire department. An amusing story was that one day I was helping
another guy weld on one of the fire engine compartments. Suddenly
he stopped and said he ran out of oxygen. I said we have plenty
of oxygen and went and grabbed the thumper bottle off the ambulance.

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Nov 14, 8:40 pm, Dave S > wrote:
> There is essentially NO moisture in the tank of medical oxygen - for the
> same reasons there is no moisture in aviation or welders oxygen. Any
> moisture or humidification in a medical stream is added at the point of
> use, AFTER the flowmeter.
Dave,
This source confirms your statement

http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/oxygen.htm

[Dave S]

Longworth wrote:
> On Nov 14, 8:40 pm, Dave S > wrote:
>> There is essentially NO moisture in the tank of medical oxygen - for the
>> same reasons there is no moisture in aviation or welders oxygen. Any
>> moisture or humidification in a medical stream is added at the point of
>> use, AFTER the flowmeter.
> Dave,
> This source confirms your statement
>
> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/oxygen.htm

Thank you...

I would hope that after 16 years in fire, ems, healthcare and dealing
with compressed air and oxygen in general I would know what I was
talking about.

The whole "moisture" argument is one of the silliest OWT's around.

[Dave S]

Airbus wrote:
> A bit O.T. :
> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>
> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?
>

This would be complete negligence had this happened in the US - with the
standards in place.

The fittings in the US are spec'd by the Compressed Gas Association
(CGA) for different gasses and gas mixes. Oxygen gets a different
fitting than Compressed Breathing Air, which gets different fittings
than Argon, Nitrogen, CO2.. etc.

The only way this could have happened is if 1) the oxygen tanks were
mis-filled with air at the vendor (an adapter would have been needed) or
2) someone adapted an air bottle to an oxygen fitting.

When the threads or the nipple dont line up properly, its a big red flag.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 15, 7:05 pm, Airbus > wrote:
> A bit O.T. :
> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>
> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?

They use compressed air to drive all their tools in the shop.

-Robert

[Airbus[_2_]]

A bit O.T. :
I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
to the pilot's unconciousness.

What I've wondered ever since I read it :
What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?

[Matt W. Barrow]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
> O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
> the transfilling equipment does not make sense.

An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank full of
O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling your own
and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it makes
it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
prohibitive.

[Airbus[_2_]]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>On Nov 15, 7:05 pm, Airbus > wrote:
>> A bit O.T. :
>> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
>> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
>> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
>> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
>> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>>
>> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
>> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
>> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?
>
>They use compressed air to drive all their tools in the shop.
>


Sure - but to get air from their shop compressor into an O2 bottle would
require some real ingenuity. Anyone smart enough to do that would be smart
enough not to do it, I should think!

I'm wondering - maybe the FBO didn't have O2 facilities, and some gopher went
out to a local diving supplies shop, and together they managed to jury-rig the
fittings . . .

[Airbus[_2_]]

In article >, says...
>
>
>Airbus wrote:
>> A bit O.T. :
>> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
>> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
>> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
>> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
>> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>>
>> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
>> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
>> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?
>>
>
>This would be complete negligence had this happened in the US - with the
>standards in place.

In any country . . .

>
>The fittings in the US are spec'd by the Compressed Gas Association
>(CGA) for different gasses and gas mixes. Oxygen gets a different
>fitting than Compressed Breathing Air, which gets different fittings
>than Argon, Nitrogen, CO2.. etc.
>
>The only way this could have happened is if 1) the oxygen tanks were
>mis-filled with air at the vendor (an adapter would have been needed) or
>2) someone adapted an air bottle to an oxygen fitting.
>
>When the threads or the nipple dont line up properly, its a big red flag.

[Jim Stewart]

Airbus wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>> On Nov 15, 7:05 pm, Airbus > wrote:
>>> A bit O.T. :
>>> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
>>> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
>>> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
>>> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
>>> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>>>
>>> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
>>> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
>>> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?
>> They use compressed air to drive all their tools in the shop.
>>
>
>
> Sure - but to get air from their shop compressor into an O2 bottle would
> require some real ingenuity. Anyone smart enough to do that would be smart
> enough not to do it, I should think!
>
> I'm wondering - maybe the FBO didn't have O2 facilities, and some gopher went
> out to a local diving supplies shop, and together they managed to jury-rig the
> fittings . . .

Not to mention getting the 125 psi
shop air up to about 2500 psi to fill
the bottle...

It is puzzling. In the US, about the
only thing bottled air is used for is
firefighters' air bottles, scuba diving
bottles and breathing air for working
in hazardous atmospheres. I'd suspect
one of these three sources.

[Dan Youngquist]

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Dan wrote:

> So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
> O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
> the transfilling equipment does not make sense.

You can put together an adapter for pretty cheap, from parts at your local
hose shop.

I fill from my neighbor's welding bottle. The only payment he requires is
the occasional favor.

-Dan

[Dan[_1_]]

On Nov 15, 10:39 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
> > O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
> > the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>
> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank full of
> O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling your own
> and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it makes
> it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
> prohibitive.

Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
live out west and have been debating for a while.

Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?

--Dan

[Ron Natalie]

Matt W. Barrow wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
>> O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
>> the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>
> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox)

I think you mean Precise Flight (Nelson).

Aerox doesn't make one to my knowledge.

I've got the Precise Flight and it definitely does extend
the bottle by a substantial amount. The MH I hear is good.
They've addressed the major concern I had when I was comparing
it against the PF one several years ago.

[Ron Natalie]

Dan wrote:

> Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> live out west and have been debating for a while.
>
> Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?
>

I have a normally aspirated aircraft and I live down here at sea
level. I regularly get up to 10,000 or so and sometimes higher.
I like having the portable system. Tank filling is hardly anything
and it doesn't need to be done that often. All of the oxygen
system vendors will top your tank off at Oshkosh (and probably
other shows) as well..

[Matt W. Barrow]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 15, 10:39 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> > So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
>> > O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
>> > the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>>
>> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank full
>> of
>> O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling your
>> own
>> and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it
>> makes
>> it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
>> prohibitive.
>
> Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> live out west and have been debating for a while.

As with so many other points, it depends. First, I find it rather odd that
someone would have built in O tanks in a non-turbo aircraft. Also, much
depends on WHY you want to go high: terrain, distance, favorable winds...

When I lived in Montrose, CO, every flight pretty muh dictated going high,
often 15K or 16K feet to get over the mountains and over to the front range.
Added to this was most flights were 350 or more miles.

If you do use oxygen fairly often, check the prices on the O conservers and
do the math to see if it's worthwhile. Also, add in your fuel saving in
going higher.

>
> Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?

Call around to some welding supply stores, but don't tell them it's for an
aircraft, just tell them you're doing to fancy artwork welding. :~)


--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Dan[_1_]]

On Nov 17, 2:16 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 10:39 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > wrote:
> >> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
> >> > O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
> >> > the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>
> >> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank full
> >> of
> >> O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling your
> >> own
> >> and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it
> >> makes
> >> it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
> >> prohibitive.
>
> > Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> > live out west and have been debating for a while.
>
> As with so many other points, it depends. First, I find it rather odd that
> someone would have built in O tanks in a non-turbo aircraft. Also, much
> depends on WHY you want to go high: terrain, distance, favorable winds...
>
> When I lived in Montrose, CO, every flight pretty muh dictated going high,
> often 15K or 16K feet to get over the mountains and over to the front range.
> Added to this was most flights were 350 or more miles.
>
> If you do use oxygen fairly often, check the prices on the O conservers and
> do the math to see if it's worthwhile. Also, add in your fuel saving in
> going higher.
>
>
>
> > Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?
>
> Call around to some welding supply stores, but don't tell them it's for an
> aircraft, just tell them you're doing to fancy artwork welding. :~)
>
> --
> Matt Barrow
> Performance Homes, LLC.
> Cheyenne, WY- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Matt,

It would be a portable system. I am in a club with a 182 and a
Comanche 260. The main purpose of the O2 would be to get to MEAs over
high terrain enabling me to go IFR on those flights. Of course, the
manual says the ceiling on the Comanche is FL210, and the 182 is 18k,
however not having Oxygen, I am not sure how practical it is to go
much above 12.5k in those aircraft...

--Dan

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> > Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> > live out west and have been debating for a while.
>
> > Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?
>
> I have a normally aspirated aircraft and I live down here at sea
> level. I regularly get up to 10,000 or so and sometimes higher.
> I like having the portable system. Tank filling is hardly anything
> and it doesn't need to be done that often. All of the oxygen
> system vendors will top your tank off at Oshkosh (and probably
> other shows) as well..

My tank usually only lasts one trip but I have 4 people breathing it
(I have an 'E' container which is a bit larger). I'm in California and
my normal Eastbound altitude is 13,500 in my non-turbo Mooney.
Anything lower than that is a bit scarry between down drafts and
dodging rocks. A normal trip is about 6 hours each way so about 12
hours on a tank with 4 breathing it.

However, it depends on where you fill it. If I fill in California I
get a good fill. If I fill in New Mexico I get much less because of
the altitude.

-Robert

[Margy Natalie]

>
> It would be a portable system. I am in a club with a 182 and a
> Comanche 260. The main purpose of the O2 would be to get to MEAs over
> high terrain enabling me to go IFR on those flights. Of course, the
> manual says the ceiling on the Comanche is FL210, and the 182 is 18k,
> however not having Oxygen, I am not sure how practical it is to go
> much above 12.5k in those aircraft...
>
> --Dan
>
I've gotten into the habit of putting the oxygen on anytime we are over
10,000. While it's not required I feel much less tired when I arrive.

Margy

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 17, 6:10 pm, Dan > wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:16 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > On Nov 15, 10:39 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > > wrote:
> > >> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > >> > So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
> > >> > O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
> > >> > the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>
> > >> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank full
> > >> of
> > >> O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling your
> > >> own
> > >> and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it
> > >> makes
> > >> it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
> > >> prohibitive.
>
> > > Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> > > live out west and have been debating for a while.
>
> > As with so many other points, it depends. First, I find it rather odd that
> > someone would have built in O tanks in a non-turbo aircraft. Also, much
> > depends on WHY you want to go high: terrain, distance, favorable winds...
>
> > When I lived in Montrose, CO, every flight pretty muh dictated going high,
> > often 15K or 16K feet to get over the mountains and over to the front range.
> > Added to this was most flights were 350 or more miles.
>
> > If you do use oxygen fairly often, check the prices on the O conservers and
> > do the math to see if it's worthwhile. Also, add in your fuel saving in
> > going higher.
>
> > > Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?
>
> > Call around to some welding supply stores, but don't tell them it's for an
> > aircraft, just tell them you're doing to fancy artwork welding. :~)
>
> > --
> > Matt Barrow
> > Performance Homes, LLC.
> > Cheyenne, WY- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Matt,
>
> It would be a portable system. I am in a club with a 182 and a
> Comanche 260. The main purpose of the O2 would be to get to MEAs over
> high terrain enabling me to go IFR on those flights. Of course, the
> manual says the ceiling on the Comanche is FL210, and the 182 is 18k,
> however not having Oxygen, I am not sure how practical it is to go
> much above 12.5k in those aircraft...

I find that in my plane it is rare that I can fly IFR (at least IMC)
at those altitudes because of ice.

-Robert

[Dan[_1_]]

On Nov 17, 7:47 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Nov 17, 6:10 pm, Dan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2:16 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > On Nov 15, 10:39 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> > > ...
>
> > > >> > So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
> > > >> > O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
> > > >> > the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>
> > > >> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank full
> > > >> of
> > > >> O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling your
> > > >> own
> > > >> and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it
> > > >> makes
> > > >> it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
> > > >> prohibitive.
>
> > > > Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> > > > live out west and have been debating for a while.
>
> > > As with so many other points, it depends. First, I find it rather odd that
> > > someone would have built in O tanks in a non-turbo aircraft. Also, much
> > > depends on WHY you want to go high: terrain, distance, favorable winds...
>
> > > When I lived in Montrose, CO, every flight pretty muh dictated going high,
> > > often 15K or 16K feet to get over the mountains and over to the front range.
> > > Added to this was most flights were 350 or more miles.
>
> > > If you do use oxygen fairly often, check the prices on the O conservers and
> > > do the math to see if it's worthwhile. Also, add in your fuel saving in
> > > going higher.
>
> > > > Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?
>
> > > Call around to some welding supply stores, but don't tell them it's for an
> > > aircraft, just tell them you're doing to fancy artwork welding. :~)
>
> > > --
> > > Matt Barrow
> > > Performance Homes, LLC.
> > > Cheyenne, WY- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Matt,
>
> > It would be a portable system. I am in a club with a 182 and a
> > Comanche 260. The main purpose of the O2 would be to get to MEAs over
> > high terrain enabling me to go IFR on those flights. Of course, the
> > manual says the ceiling on the Comanche is FL210, and the 182 is 18k,
> > however not having Oxygen, I am not sure how practical it is to go
> > much above 12.5k in those aircraft...
>
> I find that in my plane it is rare that I can fly IFR (at least IMC)
> at those altitudes because of ice.
>
> -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If going above 12.5k gets you on top, then it might be worth it.

--Dan

[Stefan]

Robert M. Gary schrieb:

> However, it depends on where you fill it. If I fill in California I
> get a good fill. If I fill in New Mexico I get much less because of
> the altitude.

Huh???

[Stefan]

Margy Natalie schrieb:

> I've gotten into the habit of putting the oxygen on anytime we are over
> 10,000. While it's not required I feel much less tired when I arrive.

With the advent of pulse demand systems, many glider pilots now just put
on the cannula before take off and set the trigger altitude as low as
5000 feet. They tend to feel a lot less tired after a typical 6 to 8
hour flight and to have a lot less headache the day after.

[Dave[_5_]]

On Nov 16, 9:56 am, Airbus > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Nov 15, 7:05 pm, Airbus > wrote:
> >> A bit O.T. :
> >> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
> >> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
> >> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
> >> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
> >> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>
> >> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
> >> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
> >> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?
>
> >They use compressed air to drive all their tools in the shop.
>
> Sure - but to get air from their shop compressor into an O2 bottle would
> require some real ingenuity. Anyone smart enough to do that would be smart
> enough not to do it, I should think!
>
> I'm wondering - maybe the FBO didn't have O2 facilities, and some gopher went
> out to a local diving supplies shop, and together they managed to jury-rig the
> fittings . . .- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The fittings for "Transfilling" from a larger tank are readily
available. Just do a search for "Oxygen Cylinder Fill Adapter". Here
is an example:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=160164819619&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=160180462292&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

Sorry for the long link.

David Johnson

[RST Engineering]

You are kidding, right? The difference between an ambient of 15 psi and 10
psi on a 3000 psi fill isn't squat.

Jim


>
> However, it depends on where you fill it. If I fill in California I
> get a good fill. If I fill in New Mexico I get much less because of
> the altitude.
>
> -Robert

[Ron Natalie]

Dave wrote:
> On Nov 16, 9:56 am, Airbus > wrote:
nking?
>>> They use compressed air to drive all their tools in the shop.
>> Sure - but to get air from their shop compressor into an O2 bottle would
>> require some real ingenuity. Anyone smart enough to do that would be smart
>> enough not to do it, I should think!
>>
>> I'm wondering - maybe the FBO didn't have O2 facilities, and some gopher went
>> out to a local diving supplies shop, and together they managed to jury-rig the
>> fittings . . .- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> The fittings for "Transfilling" from a larger tank are readily
> available.

Even the larger tanks are thread indexed. You have to work hard
to screw it up. The problem is that dive shops have rigs that mix
gases. They also have devices (and most divers diving mixes have
them as well) to analyze what's in the resultant tank before using it.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 18, 8:27 am, "RST Engineering" > wrote:
> You are kidding, right? The difference between an ambient of 15 psi and 10
> psi on a 3000 psi fill isn't squat.

I"ve never gotten more than 2300lbs in New Mexico. They say its
because the ambiant pressure doesn't allow for a full fill. I usually
get about 2800lbs (as I recall) in California.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 17, 6:51 pm, Dan > wrote:
> On Nov 17, 7:47 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 6:10 pm, Dan > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 2:16 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> > > ...
>
> > > > > On Nov 15, 10:39 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> > > > ...
>
> > > > >> > So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get cheap
> > > > >> > O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional user,
> > > > >> > the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>
> > > > >> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank full
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling your
> > > > >> own
> > > > >> and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it
> > > > >> makes
> > > > >> it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
> > > > >> prohibitive.
>
> > > > > Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> > > > > live out west and have been debating for a while.
>
> > > > As with so many other points, it depends. First, I find it rather odd that
> > > > someone would have built in O tanks in a non-turbo aircraft. Also, much
> > > > depends on WHY you want to go high: terrain, distance, favorable winds...
>
> > > > When I lived in Montrose, CO, every flight pretty muh dictated going high,
> > > > often 15K or 16K feet to get over the mountains and over to the front range.
> > > > Added to this was most flights were 350 or more miles.
>
> > > > If you do use oxygen fairly often, check the prices on the O conservers and
> > > > do the math to see if it's worthwhile. Also, add in your fuel saving in
> > > > going higher.
>
> > > > > Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?
>
> > > > Call around to some welding supply stores, but don't tell them it's for an
> > > > aircraft, just tell them you're doing to fancy artwork welding. :~)
>
> > > > --
> > > > Matt Barrow
> > > > Performance Homes, LLC.
> > > > Cheyenne, WY- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Matt,
>
> > > It would be a portable system. I am in a club with a 182 and a
> > > Comanche 260. The main purpose of the O2 would be to get to MEAs over
> > > high terrain enabling me to go IFR on those flights. Of course, the
> > > manual says the ceiling on the Comanche is FL210, and the 182 is 18k,
> > > however not having Oxygen, I am not sure how practical it is to go
> > > much above 12.5k in those aircraft...
>
> > I find that in my plane it is rare that I can fly IFR (at least IMC)
> > at those altitudes because of ice.
>
> > -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> If going above 12.5k gets you on top, then it might be worth it.

I don't mind flying above (or sometimes in) the ice if I have low
MEA's below me. However, I don't like to do it through the mountains
when there is wide spread IMC. If the IMC is just scattered them I'd
go VFR. Of course our MEA's are in the 15K's.
-Robert

[Tina]

It could depend on the type compressor. If it's a piston one,
compression ratio would set the maximum available pressure, and in NM
the pressure might be 23/28ths of that at sea level.



On Nov 18, 8:39 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Nov 18, 8:27 am, "RST Engineering" > wrote:
>
> > You are kidding, right? The difference between an ambient of 15 psi and 10
> > psi on a 3000 psi fill isn't squat.
>
> I"ve never gotten more than 2300lbs in New Mexico. They say its
> because the ambiant pressure doesn't allow for a full fill. I usually
> get about 2800lbs (as I recall) in California.
>
> -Robert

[Matt W. Barrow]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 17, 2:16 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 15, 10:39 pm, "Matt W. Barrow" >
>> > wrote:
>> >> "Dan" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >> > So short of doing your own transfilling, where does everyone get
>> >> > cheap
>> >> > O2? Or are you paying big bucks at the FBOs? For an occasional
>> >> > user,
>> >> > the transfilling equipment does not make sense.
>>
>> >> An Oxygen optimizer (i.e., Mountain High or Aerox) makes your tank
>> >> full
>> >> of
>> >> O2 last about six to ten times longer than a normal system. Filling
>> >> your
>> >> own
>> >> and an Optimizer brings the cost of O2 down to near zero. Further, it
>> >> makes
>> >> it worthwhile to use higher altitudes that an expensive system make
>> >> prohibitive.
>>
>> > Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
>> > live out west and have been debating for a while.
>>
>> As with so many other points, it depends. First, I find it rather odd
>> that
>> someone would have built in O tanks in a non-turbo aircraft. Also, much
>> depends on WHY you want to go high: terrain, distance, favorable winds...
>>
>> When I lived in Montrose, CO, every flight pretty muh dictated going
>> high,
>> often 15K or 16K feet to get over the mountains and over to the front
>> range.
>> Added to this was most flights were 350 or more miles.
>>
>> If you do use oxygen fairly often, check the prices on the O conservers
>> and
>> do the math to see if it's worthwhile. Also, add in your fuel saving in
>> going higher.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Anyone know of a good place that fills tanks in the Phoenix area?
>>
>> Call around to some welding supply stores, but don't tell them it's for
>> an
>> aircraft, just tell them you're doing to fancy artwork welding. :~)
>>
>> --
>> Matt Barrow
>> Performance Homes, LLC.
>> Cheyenne, WY- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Matt,
>
> It would be a portable system. I am in a club with a 182 and a
> Comanche 260. The main purpose of the O2 would be to get to MEAs over
> high terrain enabling me to go IFR on those flights. Of course, the
> manual says the ceiling on the Comanche is FL210, and the 182 is 18k,
> however not having Oxygen, I am not sure how practical it is to go
> much above 12.5k in those aircraft...
>
Okay..I understand - the question now is "how OFTEN" will you use those
higher altitudes. If it's once a year, just get your O bottle filled at an
FBO. If it's quite frequent, either look to do refills on your own, or get
an Oxy conserver. Doing your own refills will likely be much cheaper. And
Oxy conserver is going to run about $1K for a pair of cannules with a
controller.

[Thomas Borchert]

Tina,

> It could depend on the type compressor.
>

Compressor for? We're talking oxygen, not compressed air (I hope).

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Tina]

Thomas, I would think some vendor, probably local, is either buying or
generating oxygen, and compressing it. Most likely it is being
compressed with a multistage positive displacement pump, and the
limiting pressure would be its compression ratio. I think (but am not
sure) most oxygen generators deliver low pressure oxygen, and that
would need to be compressed.

I fully admit my model could be wrong, but oxygen generators I know of
do not make deliver it at high pressure. One I know of delvers its
oxygen at something like 9 PSIG.




> Tina,
>
> > It could depend on the type compressor.
>
> Compressor for? We're talking oxygen, not compressed air (I hope).
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[gwengler]

On Nov 15, 10:05 pm, Airbus > wrote:
> A bit O.T. :
> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>
> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?

I think you mean this one: NTSB IAD97FA060
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1 . It
was a T337 and happened in the US.

Gerd

[RST Engineering]

Gas theory ain't my strong suit, but I was always told that the oxygen was
generated by the fractional distillation of liquid air and was separated out
as liquid oxygen (lOX). I'm fairly sure that it is not compressed with pump
technology.

I'm wild ass guessing that the folks in New Mexico (and other altitude
places) are making 15-25% more by perpetuing an OWT that the bottles won't
"fill due to the altitude" and charging the same for a 2300 psi fill as they
would for a 2800 psi fill.

I'm a little over 3000 MSL here and my welding oxygen comes home at between
2800 and 3000 psi regularly.

Jim

..
>
> I fully admit my model could be wrong, but oxygen generators I know of
> do not make deliver it at high pressure. One I know of delvers its
> oxygen at something like 9 PSIG.

[Tina]

If your tanks are coming back at that pressure you're right, my
'model' is flawed.



On Nov 19, 2:05 pm, "RST Engineering" > wrote:
> Gas theory ain't my strong suit, but I was always told that the oxygen was
> generated by the fractional distillation of liquid air and was separated out
> as liquid oxygen (lOX). I'm fairly sure that it is not compressed with pump
> technology.
>
> I'm wild ass guessing that the folks in New Mexico (and other altitude
> places) are making 15-25% more by perpetuing an OWT that the bottles won't
> "fill due to the altitude" and charging the same for a 2300 psi fill as they
> would for a 2800 psi fill.
>
> I'm a little over 3000 MSL here and my welding oxygen comes home at between
> 2800 and 3000 psi regularly.
>
> Jim
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
> > I fully admit my model could be wrong, but oxygen generators I know of
> > do not make deliver it at high pressure. One I know of delvers its
> > oxygen at something like 9 PSIG.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Dan Youngquist]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007, Dan wrote:

> Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> live out west and have been debating for a while.

I like to use oxygen any time I go over about 9000 ft., because that's the
point at which I start to feel a little less sharp. It's also the point
at which one's blood oxygen level starts to go below the mid-80's,
according to my oximeter.

I have a couple standard medical bottles and conserving regulators.
Total cost maybe $125 per person on Ebay. Another $100 or so for an
adapter to fill from welding bottles, $150 for an oximeter, and a few
standard medical cannulas, and I have a pretty cheap oxygen setup that
works great and fits into a small backpack. Actually the oximeter lives
in my headset bag because I like to check my O2 level even when I don't
have oxygen along.

-Dan

[Dan[_1_]]

On Nov 19, 4:58 pm, Dan Youngquist > wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2007, Dan wrote:
> > Would it be worth it in a non-turbo aircraft? (ie. 182, Comanche?) I
> > live out west and have been debating for a while.
>
> I like to use oxygen any time I go over about 9000 ft., because that's the
> point at which I start to feel a little less sharp. It's also the point
> at which one's blood oxygen level starts to go below the mid-80's,
> according to my oximeter.
>
> I have a couple standard medical bottles and conserving regulators.
> Total cost maybe $125 per person on Ebay. Another $100 or so for an
> adapter to fill from welding bottles, $150 for an oximeter, and a few
> standard medical cannulas, and I have a pretty cheap oxygen setup that
> works great and fits into a small backpack. Actually the oximeter lives
> in my headset bag because I like to check my O2 level even when I don't
> have oxygen along.
>
> -Dan

Dan,

What adaptor do you use for the transfilling? Do you have a welding
bottle(s) that you exchange? Most of the transfilling adaptors I've
seen are more than $100.

BTW, US Airweld in the Phoenix area will fill tanks (not just exchange
them), which was a bit hard to find.

--Dan

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dan" > wrote
>
> BTW, US Airweld in the Phoenix area will fill tanks (not just exchange
> them), which was a bit hard to find.

Around here, it isn't hard to find someone to fill your own bottle, but you
will have to wait a few days for it.
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Natalie]

Tina wrote:
> Thomas, I would think some vendor, probably local, is either buying or
> generating oxygen, and compressing it.

Commercial oxygen is genereted by cryogenic separation which involves
compressing it to levels so high that the atmospheric differences are
completely lost.

[gwengler]

>
> Anyone go to jail for this?- Hide quoted text -
>
I don't know. Here is a write-up by Peter Garrison (Flying magazine):
http://stage.flyingmag.com/article.asp?article_id=35&print_page=y&section_id=19

Gerd

[Airbus[_2_]]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>On Nov 15, 10:05 pm, Airbus > wrote:
>> A bit O.T. :
>> I read an accident report a few years back - an FBO in Europe re-filled an
>> O2 bottle with compressed air. In the ensuing high-altitude flight, the
>> pilot lost conciousness and the airplane crashed in the mountains. A
>> passenger, miraculously, survived and confirmed the cause of the crash due
>> to the pilot's unconciousness.
>>
>> What I've wondered ever since I read it :
>> What would the FBO be doing with compressed air in the first place, and how
>> could this confusion occur? What *could* they have been thinking?
>
>I think you mean this one: NTSB IAD97FA060
>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1 . It
>was a T337 and happened in the US.
>
>Gerd


That is it - thanks.
Don't know why I had it situated in Europe. Was I just "hoping" it couldn't
happen in the US?

Anyone go to jail for this?

[Jim Macklin]

If you refill at an airport, they usually pull a cart up to the airplane
with a series of oxygen bottles manifold.

The begin filling slowly, so as not to generate too much heat that will
raise the pressure. They start with the lowest pressure tank on their cart
and fill until flow stops. Then they close the valve on that tank and open
the valve on the next higher pressure tank, until the pressure has reached
the same as the source tank.

The source tank cools as compressed gas comes out and the aircraft tank get
hotter as gas goes in. That means the tank will read 2300 ponds when it is
full and an hour later it will be at 2000 when it is cooler and a cruise
altitude in the cold, the tank will be down to 1800 PSI. If the tank can be
refilled out of the airplane, it can and should be placed in a tank of cold
water to speed the refill process and efficiency and to provide protection
if it blows up during the filling.


An generator produces low pressure gas which can be accumulated and
breathed. Your lungs would rupture if you tried to breathe high pressure,
more than a pound above the outside air pressure at your altitude.

Over-pressure breathing is measured in "inches of water" and a foot of water
is only a 1/2 pound.



"gwengler" > wrote in message
...
> >
>> Anyone go to jail for this?- Hide quoted text -
>>
> I don't know. Here is a write-up by Peter Garrison (Flying magazine):
> http://stage.flyingmag.com/article.asp?article_id=35&print_page=y&section_id=19
>
> Gerd

[Dan Youngquist]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Dan wrote:

> What adaptor do you use for the transfilling? Do you have a welding
> bottle(s) that you exchange? Most of the transfilling adaptors I've
> seen are more than $100.

I got one from this guy: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZjohnclairowens
I got an extra yoke end so I can connect any combination of welding or
medical cylinders.

Also have another one I found used for a lot cheaper.

I don't have my own welding cylinder, I fill from a friend's. If I used
more I'd get my own cylinder.

-Dan